26/02/2017 Sunday Politics West


26/02/2017

Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Kezia Dugdale, Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:41.:00:46.

Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,

:00:47.:00:47.

not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.

:00:48.:00:49.

But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,

:00:50.:00:50.

the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.

:00:51.:00:52.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,

:00:53.:00:55.

but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party

:00:56.:00:57.

The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.

:00:58.:01:08.

You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!

:01:09.:01:13.

And in the West: mocked for talking about the impact

:01:14.:01:23.

Local authorities raise tax and cut services this week.

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The leaders of our two biggest councils will be with me

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In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local

:01:28.:01:31.

authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?

:01:32.:01:38.

And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased

:01:39.:01:40.

to say have so far not been banned from the White House.

:01:41.:01:48.

I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,

:01:49.:01:52.

but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,

:01:53.:01:56.

We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last

:01:57.:02:06.

Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe

:02:07.:02:10.

British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it

:02:11.:02:14.

may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is

:02:15.:02:19.

difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a

:02:20.:02:25.

credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the

:02:26.:02:30.

campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin

:02:31.:02:33.

with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but

:02:34.:02:37.

they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's

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hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems

:02:43.:02:45.

they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If

:02:46.:02:51.

Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at

:02:52.:02:58.

the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind

:02:59.:03:03.

despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never

:03:04.:03:07.

more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's

:03:08.:03:12.

the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she

:03:13.:03:17.

faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher

:03:18.:03:22.

who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked

:03:23.:03:27.

like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up

:03:28.:03:33.

to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite

:03:34.:03:39.

often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK

:03:40.:03:44.

opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her

:03:45.:03:48.

agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips

:03:49.:03:53.

with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be

:03:54.:03:58.

for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both

:03:59.:04:03.

strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and

:04:04.:04:07.

very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more

:04:08.:04:12.

dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go

:04:13.:04:17.

wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think

:04:18.:04:20.

through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority

:04:21.:04:25.

of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put

:04:26.:04:28.

under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the

:04:29.:04:32.

two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or

:04:33.:04:40.

the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to

:04:41.:04:42.

operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party

:04:43.:04:47.

to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be

:04:48.:04:51.

disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that

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would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip

:04:55.:05:00.

coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the

:05:01.:05:05.

moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures

:05:06.:05:11.

might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite

:05:12.:05:14.

anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press

:05:15.:05:17.

ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a

:05:18.:05:24.

slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of

:05:25.:05:27.

transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people

:05:28.:05:32.

happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground

:05:33.:05:36.

and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in

:05:37.:05:40.

which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for

:05:41.:05:44.

today. Thursday was a big night

:05:45.:05:45.

for political obsessives like us, with not one but two

:05:46.:05:47.

significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain

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to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,

:05:52.:05:59.

the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just

:06:00.:06:04.

a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent

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were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall

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on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon

:06:13.:06:16.

is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning

:06:17.:06:22.

strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved

:06:23.:06:24.

to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result

:06:25.:06:27.

in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away

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in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another

:06:30.:06:33.

Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both

:06:34.:06:38.

places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal

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by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,

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Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,

:06:49.:06:50.

winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,

:06:51.:06:53.

where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it

:06:54.:06:55.

onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare

:06:56.:06:59.

that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory

:07:00.:07:03.

here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader

:07:04.:07:11.

played down the defeat, insisting his party's

:07:12.:07:17.

time would come. Are you going to stand again

:07:18.:07:20.

as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,

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don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat

:07:27.:07:30.

the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this

:07:31.:07:39.

weekend who have got But a few minutes later,

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it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,

:07:42.:07:47.

the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000

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votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight

:07:52.:08:02.

is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,

:08:03.:08:06.

but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18

:08:07.:08:08.

points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes

:08:09.:08:20.

I think is an incredible The morning after the night

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before, the losing parties were licking their wounds

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and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,

:08:29.:08:32.

Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,

:08:33.:08:36.

that era has gone. It's a new era, it is

:08:37.:08:42.

a second age for us. So that needs to be

:08:43.:08:45.

more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,

:08:46.:08:50.

you know, and that will We have to continue to improve

:08:51.:08:52.

in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,

:08:53.:09:02.

we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,

:09:03.:09:04.

is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come

:09:05.:09:06.

here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP

:09:07.:09:11.

for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived

:09:12.:09:14.

in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to

:09:15.:09:18.

Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour

:09:19.:09:22.

leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some

:09:23.:09:26.

theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost

:09:27.:09:28.

a seat to a governing party for the first time

:09:29.:09:34.

since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning

:09:35.:09:38.

looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -

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could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives

:09:42.:09:45.

who came out on top. No governing party has made

:09:46.:09:53.

a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army

:09:54.:09:55.

of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out

:09:56.:10:01.

here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain

:10:02.:10:06.

on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in

:10:07.:10:17.

Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring

:10:18.:10:20.

conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson

:10:21.:10:22.

warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat

:10:23.:10:27.

seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated

:10:28.:10:29.

south of the border. Well, I'm joined now

:10:30.:10:33.

by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost

:10:34.:10:48.

Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the

:10:49.:10:52.

UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would

:10:53.:10:57.

absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to

:10:58.:11:04.

support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing

:11:05.:11:07.

for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for

:11:08.:11:11.

everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn

:11:12.:11:14.

around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do

:11:15.:11:17.

while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we

:11:18.:11:24.

were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working

:11:25.:11:28.

class communities across the country, but we listened very hard

:11:29.:11:32.

to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm

:11:33.:11:36.

committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is

:11:37.:11:42.

committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in

:11:43.:11:48.

Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even

:11:49.:11:53.

Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will

:11:54.:11:59.

try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general

:12:00.:12:03.

election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm

:12:04.:12:07.

the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for

:12:08.:12:12.

our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish

:12:13.:12:14.

Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we

:12:15.:12:18.

stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity

:12:19.:12:22.

platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and

:12:23.:12:26.

invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also

:12:27.:12:30.

supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to

:12:31.:12:36.

a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together

:12:37.:12:40.

by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the

:12:41.:12:45.

federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that

:12:46.:12:48.

ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional

:12:49.:12:52.

Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party

:12:53.:12:59.

and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will

:13:00.:13:05.

take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party

:13:06.:13:10.

can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide

:13:11.:13:14.

Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.

:13:15.:13:21.

Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to

:13:22.:13:27.

carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level

:13:28.:13:31.

is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to

:13:32.:13:35.

prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not

:13:36.:13:38.

to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the

:13:39.:13:43.

point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say

:13:44.:13:48.

there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it

:13:49.:13:52.

and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of

:13:53.:13:56.

this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that

:13:57.:14:01.

happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder

:14:02.:14:05.

people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What

:14:06.:14:08.

evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an

:14:09.:14:14.

English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal

:14:15.:14:19.

regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell

:14:20.:14:22.

you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that

:14:23.:14:28.

here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.

:14:29.:14:33.

What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast

:14:34.:14:36.

that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the

:14:37.:14:40.

north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that

:14:41.:14:45.

Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel

:14:46.:14:48.

remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being

:14:49.:14:52.

exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in

:14:53.:14:55.

because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways

:14:56.:14:59.

it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is

:15:00.:15:08.

leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation

:15:09.:15:10.

of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers

:15:11.:15:13.

to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English

:15:14.:15:15.

context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the

:15:16.:15:20.

English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,

:15:21.:15:20.

correct? It is absolutely the policy of the

:15:21.:15:30.

UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention

:15:31.:15:35.

to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're

:15:36.:15:39.

promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not

:15:40.:15:43.

even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is

:15:44.:15:48.

not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to

:15:49.:15:51.

Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.

:15:52.:15:56.

United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not

:15:57.:16:00.

united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power

:16:01.:16:05.

in this country. It is not united on that

:16:06.:16:29.

issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard

:16:30.:16:32.

yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people

:16:33.:16:35.

like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local

:16:36.:16:37.

Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.

:16:38.:16:39.

Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the

:16:40.:16:41.

whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a

:16:42.:16:44.

conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come

:16:45.:16:46.

onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He

:16:47.:16:49.

wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish

:16:50.:16:51.

nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance

:16:52.:16:54.

yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear

:16:55.:16:59.

yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was

:17:00.:17:04.

saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people

:17:05.:17:08.

and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up

:17:09.:17:13.

living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is

:17:14.:17:17.

forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,

:17:18.:17:22.

it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the

:17:23.:17:26.

consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing

:17:27.:17:31.

under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with

:17:32.:17:45.

ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He

:17:46.:17:49.

said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last

:17:50.:17:52.

minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and

:17:53.:17:54.

reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish

:17:55.:17:57.

nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that

:17:58.:18:01.

even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of

:18:02.:18:04.

nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it

:18:05.:18:12.

is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.

:18:13.:18:16.

Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly

:18:17.:18:20.

refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the

:18:21.:18:27.

SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did

:18:28.:18:32.

not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is

:18:33.:18:36.

divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.

:18:37.:18:40.

Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in

:18:41.:18:46.

Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence

:18:47.:18:51.

question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want

:18:52.:18:54.

to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and

:18:55.:19:00.

no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers

:19:01.:19:04.

lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,

:19:05.:19:08.

your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he

:19:09.:19:13.

referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --

:19:14.:19:21.

and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive

:19:22.:19:25.

politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we

:19:26.:19:29.

are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from

:19:30.:19:33.

saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That

:19:34.:19:37.

is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really

:19:38.:19:42.

struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about

:19:43.:19:48.

being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear

:19:49.:19:54.

that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the

:19:55.:19:58.

length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is

:19:59.:20:03.

what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back

:20:04.:20:06.

together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'

:20:07.:20:11.

time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for

:20:12.:20:12.

joining us. Thursday's win for Labour

:20:13.:20:13.

in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:14.:20:15.

but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall

:20:16.:20:18.

there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's

:20:19.:20:20.

principal political Welcome to the programme. Good

:20:21.:20:31.

morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,

:20:32.:20:34.

months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip

:20:35.:20:41.

was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting

:20:42.:20:45.

Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of

:20:46.:20:49.

Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to

:20:50.:20:52.

make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in

:20:53.:20:58.

Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.

:20:59.:21:05.

We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment

:21:06.:21:09.

that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.

:21:10.:21:14.

Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.

:21:15.:21:19.

A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out

:21:20.:21:24.

publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of

:21:25.:21:28.

Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt

:21:29.:21:33.

about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well

:21:34.:21:36.

the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of

:21:37.:21:52.

Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are

:21:53.:21:55.

passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the

:21:56.:21:57.

most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What

:21:58.:21:59.

would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul

:22:00.:22:02.

Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic

:22:03.:22:06.

cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip

:22:07.:22:11.

supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was

:22:12.:22:18.

marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip

:22:19.:22:25.

to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning

:22:26.:22:29.

what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is

:22:30.:22:33.

counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more

:22:34.:22:38.

difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a

:22:39.:22:43.

Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against

:22:44.:22:49.

triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the

:22:50.:22:52.

Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It

:22:53.:22:54.

comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.

:22:55.:23:11.

You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,

:23:12.:23:14.

they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning

:23:15.:23:16.

Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso

:23:17.:23:18.

labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,

:23:19.:23:20.

it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a

:23:21.:23:23.

future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

:23:24.:23:28.

Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not

:23:29.:23:33.

recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around

:23:34.:23:36.

campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We

:23:37.:23:40.

believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working

:23:41.:23:43.

class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in

:23:44.:23:50.

Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable

:23:51.:23:55.

to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social

:23:56.:24:01.

solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation

:24:02.:24:05.

and community. We want an immigration system that is not only

:24:06.:24:09.

reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a

:24:10.:24:14.

whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When

:24:15.:24:18.

Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he

:24:19.:24:24.

was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It

:24:25.:24:31.

would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of

:24:32.:24:35.

Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions

:24:36.:24:38.

and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will

:24:39.:24:41.

fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true

:24:42.:24:45.

that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote

:24:46.:24:49.

might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and

:24:50.:24:54.

disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,

:24:55.:24:58.

Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant

:24:59.:25:03.

tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on

:25:04.:25:09.

immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the

:25:10.:25:13.

spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech

:25:14.:25:16.

before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the

:25:17.:25:23.

result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to

:25:24.:25:29.

set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you

:25:30.:25:33.

have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,

:25:34.:25:39.

do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and

:25:40.:25:44.

freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is

:25:45.:25:47.

certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,

:25:48.:25:52.

particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing

:25:53.:25:58.

to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.

:25:59.:26:01.

If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps

:26:02.:26:07.

to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the

:26:08.:26:12.

Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil

:26:13.:26:15.

Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As

:26:16.:26:21.

far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party

:26:22.:26:24.

formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He

:26:25.:26:28.

says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.

:26:29.:26:33.

He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What

:26:34.:26:39.

do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many

:26:40.:26:41.

months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas

:26:42.:26:46.

Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi

:26:47.:26:50.

chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the

:26:51.:26:57.

moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth

:26:58.:27:03.

running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I

:27:04.:27:05.

understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip

:27:06.:27:10.

if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.

:27:11.:27:15.

Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and

:27:16.:27:19.

support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate

:27:20.:27:23.

and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,

:27:24.:27:28.

people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the

:27:29.:27:31.

party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You

:27:32.:27:37.

have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it

:27:38.:27:42.

could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too

:27:43.:27:46.

optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'

:27:47.:27:50.

time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the

:27:51.:27:55.

guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a

:27:56.:28:00.

little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get

:28:01.:28:05.

seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will

:28:06.:28:09.

of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a

:28:10.:28:12.

magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.

:28:13.:28:14.

Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often

:28:15.:28:16.

should because this week it was pulled into

:28:17.:28:19.

the global spotlight, thanks

:28:20.:28:20.

Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that

:28:21.:28:29.

had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open

:28:30.:28:33.

Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred

:28:34.:28:36.

and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking

:28:37.:28:39.

about a report he had watched on Fox News.

:28:40.:28:42.

But as if to prove he was onto something,

:28:43.:28:45.

next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb

:28:46.:28:47.

with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas

:28:48.:28:50.

So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?

:28:51.:28:59.

In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second

:29:00.:29:02.

That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced

:29:03.:29:09.

border restrictions and stopped offering permanent

:29:10.:29:10.

Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,

:29:11.:29:18.

although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven

:29:19.:29:21.

Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants

:29:22.:29:30.

have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.

:29:31.:29:32.

Although the country does have the highest reported

:29:33.:29:34.

rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises

:29:35.:29:37.

were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.

:29:38.:29:42.

Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled

:29:43.:29:44.

Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes

:29:45.:29:50.

Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers

:29:51.:29:53.

We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the

:29:54.:30:06.

governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and

:30:07.:30:08.

The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,

:30:09.:30:24.

pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later

:30:25.:30:29.

serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm

:30:30.:30:33.

so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is

:30:34.:30:38.

misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is

:30:39.:30:43.

important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for

:30:44.:30:47.

the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate

:30:48.:30:50.

that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social

:30:51.:30:59.

unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical

:31:00.:31:02.

backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic

:31:03.:31:09.

reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of

:31:10.:31:13.

crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo

:31:14.:31:20.

attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that

:31:21.:31:25.

was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox

:31:26.:31:29.

News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that

:31:30.:31:34.

because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish

:31:35.:31:39.

authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant

:31:40.:31:45.

to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly

:31:46.:31:47.

the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides

:31:48.:31:53.

because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force

:31:54.:31:59.

which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of

:32:00.:32:04.

evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the

:32:05.:32:09.

rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the

:32:10.:32:12.

rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar

:32:13.:32:16.

forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian

:32:17.:32:21.

authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity

:32:22.:32:26.

so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of

:32:27.:32:32.

lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is

:32:33.:32:37.

difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many

:32:38.:32:42.

crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault

:32:43.:32:47.

are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman

:32:48.:32:52.

goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped

:32:53.:33:00.

her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as

:33:01.:33:06.

365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news

:33:07.:33:10.

from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the

:33:11.:33:14.

last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times

:33:15.:33:20.

higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo

:33:21.:33:26.

where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.

:33:27.:33:30.

Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now

:33:31.:33:34.

dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what

:33:35.:33:40.

I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for

:33:41.:33:45.

people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is

:33:46.:33:49.

a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we

:33:50.:33:55.

want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to

:33:56.:33:58.

receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because

:33:59.:34:04.

having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I

:34:05.:34:08.

think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at

:34:09.:34:13.

one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed

:34:14.:34:18.

that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it

:34:19.:34:22.

sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.

:34:23.:34:28.

Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do

:34:29.:34:31.

everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other

:34:32.:34:35.

countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you

:34:36.:34:40.

look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country

:34:41.:34:43.

they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live

:34:44.:34:48.

in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start

:34:49.:34:56.

enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The

:34:57.:35:03.

unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than

:35:04.:35:07.

non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and

:35:08.:35:12.

the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have

:35:13.:35:17.

brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do

:35:18.:35:22.

much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration

:35:23.:35:25.

that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated

:35:26.:35:30.

and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and

:35:31.:35:32.

working in different fields of society, and they help our country.

:35:33.:35:41.

Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes

:35:42.:35:47.

time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I

:35:48.:35:52.

put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a

:35:53.:35:55.

result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad

:35:56.:36:00.

as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can

:36:01.:36:04.

put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of

:36:05.:36:09.

these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.

:36:10.:36:16.

Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,

:36:17.:36:21.

they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees

:36:22.:36:26.

into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for

:36:27.:36:31.

the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge

:36:32.:36:34.

in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in

:36:35.:36:40.

Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt

:36:41.:36:44.

about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly

:36:45.:36:48.

exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish

:36:49.:36:54.

authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo

:36:55.:37:04.

registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010

:37:05.:37:14.

people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got

:37:15.:37:17.

to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are

:37:18.:37:24.

people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own

:37:25.:37:28.

agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our

:37:29.:37:34.

country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to

:37:35.:37:38.

people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say

:37:39.:37:42.

they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say

:37:43.:37:46.

again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.

:37:47.:37:51.

Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we

:37:52.:37:57.

have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped

:37:58.:38:01.

in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That

:38:02.:38:05.

happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An

:38:06.:38:09.

upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then

:38:10.:38:13.

total denial by an entire political class is now something that is

:38:14.:38:18.

happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial

:38:19.:38:21.

that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not

:38:22.:38:26.

answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to

:38:27.:38:33.

admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is

:38:34.:38:40.

covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by

:38:41.:38:44.

ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right

:38:45.:38:50.

parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what

:38:51.:38:54.

I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain

:38:55.:38:57.

way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background

:38:58.:39:01.

of the people living there but rather because of different

:39:02.:39:05.

socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows

:39:06.:39:11.

immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish

:39:12.:39:14.

authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and

:39:15.:39:18.

after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the

:39:19.:39:22.

Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual

:39:23.:39:26.

molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to

:39:27.:39:33.

think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out

:39:34.:39:37.

but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum

:39:38.:39:43.

seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in

:39:44.:39:47.

last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on

:39:48.:39:52.

getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do

:39:53.:39:56.

our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course

:39:57.:40:00.

on integration and making sure people get a job, and also

:40:01.:40:13.

on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for

:40:14.:40:16.

eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big

:40:17.:40:19.

tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am

:40:20.:40:22.

grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.

:40:23.:40:23.

It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:40:24.:40:26.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:40:27.:40:28.

the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat

:40:29.:40:42.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the West.

:40:43.:40:45.

Coming up: Building the dream - our local councils want to build

:40:46.:40:48.

200,000 new homes, but do they have any chance of doing so?

:40:49.:40:51.

With councils facing the squeeze, I'm joined by two people who've been

:40:52.:40:57.

They are the leaders of our two biggest local authorities.

:40:58.:41:03.

Baroness Jane Scott is the Conservative leader

:41:04.:41:05.

And Marvin Rees is the Labour Mayor of Bristol.

:41:06.:41:09.

It got rather rowdy in Bristol this week as the council set its budget.

:41:10.:41:17.

Proceedings were interrupted and police called as a ?16 million

:41:18.:41:21.

At other councils, services have also been slashed and taxes

:41:22.:41:31.

raised, prompting even conservatives to complain.

:41:32.:41:32.

We can say enough is enough, we can't take any more.

:41:33.:41:40.

We're going to stand together, we're going to fight

:41:41.:41:42.

And there were protests inside with pretty city councils

:41:43.:41:52.

budget setting meeting even suspended while the public

:41:53.:41:54.

Eventually, after six hours, the ruling Labour

:41:55.:41:57.

Council tax up 5%, jobs lost and services cut.

:41:58.:42:04.

The social glue that holds the city together is going to be eroded.

:42:05.:42:09.

All the things that we take for granted are going to be eroded

:42:10.:42:13.

and are going to disappear because of this.

:42:14.:42:18.

Our libraries, our community partnerships, our leisure

:42:19.:42:21.

How are parks going to pay for themselves?

:42:22.:42:26.

The same day, 25 miles away and quite a contrast.

:42:27.:42:31.

Wiltshire set their budget with the ruling

:42:32.:42:33.

We are seen as a pioneer in terms of pushing the boundaries

:42:34.:42:40.

and doing things differently from local government.

:42:41.:42:44.

One big difference, it's a unitary authority,

:42:45.:42:47.

Bristol and Wiltshire are similar in population

:42:48.:42:51.

providing similar services, but in different ways.

:42:52.:42:57.

A you years ago, Wiltshire reduced staffing and now relies more

:42:58.:43:04.

Both councils have similar numbers of libraries,

:43:05.:43:08.

but a third of Wiltshire's are run by volunteers.

:43:09.:43:10.

Bristol, by contrast, staffs all of its branches

:43:11.:43:16.

But not all Conservative councils are like Wiltshire as the Secretary

:43:17.:43:21.

of State for Local Government should have known when he came to Somerset

:43:22.:43:24.

this week for the launch of their campaign to keep control

:43:25.:43:27.

What we've seen here in Somerset County,

:43:28.:43:33.

through this manifesto, through some of the things that John

:43:34.:43:36.

has already talked about, is just what a difference you have

:43:37.:43:39.

made to people's lives right here the county.

:43:40.:43:43.

There are reduced library opening hours, reduced bin collections,

:43:44.:43:46.

absolutely no major road improvement schemes,

:43:47.:43:52.

cuts to drug advisory services, cuts to youth clubs,

:43:53.:43:55.

less funding to support the elderly in their own homes and

:43:56.:43:58.

This was a debate on local government funding the previous day.

:43:59.:44:04.

We have to now accept that in rural areas public services have not just

:44:05.:44:14.

been cut to the bone, they have had all the

:44:15.:44:16.

So, I try to find out if the Minister agreed

:44:17.:44:19.

People want to see their council tax bill go lower rather than higher

:44:20.:44:26.

so they accept that when changes do need to be made...

:44:27.:44:28.

So if the investment is going into adult social care,

:44:29.:44:31.

as it is in this coming financial year, I think pie

:44:32.:44:35.

They won't be cut if you have the right administration.

:44:36.:44:43.

But the MPs says, the Conservative MP here says they have cut things

:44:44.:44:46.

like drug advisory services, youth club, support for the elderly.

:44:47.:44:49.

What we've seen here is you've got the right leadership that

:44:50.:44:52.

has been making some of these tough decisions.

:44:53.:44:54.

That is to protect most vital services and that's

:44:55.:44:57.

There was no hint that cuts in funding for local

:44:58.:45:05.

On May the 4th, voters can decide who will take charge of cutting

:45:06.:45:10.

Jane Scott, which cut did you feel the most unhappy about?

:45:11.:45:20.

I'm always unhappy about making people redundant if I have two.

:45:21.:45:27.

Not make them compulsorily redundant and I hope I don't this year.

:45:28.:45:34.

You haven't mentioned a single cut in your speech.

:45:35.:45:37.

No, but my cabinet member responsible did to talk about 200

:45:38.:45:41.

job losses and hopefully those will all come from

:45:42.:45:43.

But support for adults with learning difficulties,

:45:44.:45:49.

reduced adult social care, reduced the ground repairs, reduced.

:45:50.:45:59.

Because we do differently in Wiltshire.

:46:00.:46:04.

You can see with what we've done with children's centres,

:46:05.:46:07.

And there are 867 volunteers, not 750.

:46:08.:46:10.

We try to deliver services in a more modern way and I think

:46:11.:46:22.

that is the key to the success of an authority.

:46:23.:46:25.

That, and doing things in a more businesslike way as well.

:46:26.:46:27.

OK, but your own government grant has been reduced by 17.6%.

:46:28.:46:30.

That is austerity being delivered from central government locally.

:46:31.:46:33.

Do you ever say to Theresa, that is enough?

:46:34.:46:37.

As Conservative councillors, particularly, we talk

:46:38.:46:40.

to our government about the fact that it has probably gone far enough

:46:41.:46:43.

and that if you look at what the government is doing

:46:44.:46:45.

and it's saying, no more grants from us, you're going to rely

:46:46.:46:48.

on your non-domestic rates and your council tax,

:46:49.:46:51.

But this is ruthless austerity, isn't it?

:46:52.:46:53.

Marvin, it's people like you that have two implement it.

:46:54.:46:57.

We are at city and local government level and it's a massive challenge.

:46:58.:47:11.

When we first started down this path, one of the things I was very

:47:12.:47:14.

concerned about was if people in Westminster hadn't really

:47:15.:47:16.

taken account of the fact that there is a cost to the cuts.

:47:17.:47:20.

If you impact on our ability to intervene earlier in people's

:47:21.:47:22.

lives, you have two build physical resilience, mental health

:47:23.:47:24.

into people's lives, jobs skills, they turn up requiring public

:47:25.:47:27.

services later on in life so it can be a false economy.

:47:28.:47:29.

Do you think people might ask, what was the point of electing

:47:30.:47:32.

Labour mayor who's going to impose Tory cuts?

:47:33.:47:34.

I don't think that's a justified question,

:47:35.:47:38.

but that's been one of the arguments of the critics.

:47:39.:47:41.

My point is that we've come in, we have a set of values and we've

:47:42.:47:44.

been driving through what we do in local government

:47:45.:47:46.

in a way that we believe is in line with our values.

:47:47.:47:49.

Protecting the most vulnerable in all possible ways.

:47:50.:47:51.

What I would also say is we've got to appreciate that Bristol is not

:47:52.:47:56.

We have two big universities, a huge private sector,

:47:57.:48:02.

other public sector organisations and a big voluntary sector.

:48:03.:48:05.

The real art of getting outcomes for people in Bristol has to look

:48:06.:48:08.

beyond just what the City Council does but to look at the collective,

:48:09.:48:11.

combined impact of all those organisations.

:48:12.:48:14.

Only today I was at a board meeting talking about

:48:15.:48:16.

the Local Enterprise Partnership talking about inclusive

:48:17.:48:20.

But you've still imposed ?60 million worth of cuts and you've got

:48:21.:48:32.

It's what our party requires and it's competence.

:48:33.:48:37.

One of the most important things we can do for Bristol

:48:38.:48:40.

is deliver a financially competent local authority.

:48:41.:48:42.

We have a challenging settlement from central government,

:48:43.:48:44.

we also are dealing with a very challenging inheritance surrounding

:48:45.:48:47.

mismanagement of the Council's finances and we are having to work

:48:48.:48:50.

What was the cut that you found the most difficult?

:48:51.:48:55.

Clearly, cuts surrounding children's services.

:48:56.:48:58.

This was big because, with my background in public health,

:48:59.:49:01.

I know that if you get children off to the best possible

:49:02.:49:03.

start in life, you build resilience into their lives.

:49:04.:49:07.

So, you are actually doing things you don't want to do?

:49:08.:49:09.

We are all doing things we don't want to do at a local level.

:49:10.:49:13.

It's about being a businesslike authority.

:49:14.:49:18.

When I moved to a unitary council in 2009, the back office costs

:49:19.:49:23.

for our council were 19% of our spend.

:49:24.:49:28.

By doing that, you are cutting your back offices and that then

:49:29.:49:33.

makes very little effect to your front line services.

:49:34.:49:36.

That's what a lot of councils have got to get very strong on and do

:49:37.:49:40.

Do you accept you might be able to take some advice from Wiltshire?

:49:41.:49:44.

We are working closely with our core city partners and I'm also a member

:49:45.:49:50.

of the global parliament of mayors so we are drawing on experiences

:49:51.:49:53.

of cities all around the world as to how they manage

:49:54.:49:55.

Again, we've got to get to a point where we understand that shaping

:49:56.:50:00.

life in a city is not just about local government.

:50:01.:50:02.

When we talk about cohesion in place, it's about the sports

:50:03.:50:10.

offer, football clubs, big employers, health services.

:50:11.:50:12.

How do we get the collective impact of those organisations?

:50:13.:50:18.

Are you surprised, on a political point, that despite the cuts

:50:19.:50:22.

which are happening in every single local authority, Labour

:50:23.:50:24.

This is a Westminster focused conversation.

:50:25.:50:35.

Labour is in charge of every core city, that's ten core cities.

:50:36.:50:38.

That's a third of the population and a big chunk

:50:39.:50:40.

So, if you take a Westminster view, which you shouldn't do

:50:41.:50:44.

at a regional level, but if you take a Westminster view

:50:45.:50:47.

of politics, Labour are having a tough time even though

:50:48.:50:49.

Coming down to a city level, Labour are actually in power.

:50:50.:50:59.

I think we should look at Copeland last night.

:51:00.:51:02.

One of the biggest challenges facing local councils is how

:51:03.:51:06.

In the West, we need another city the size of Bristol just to keep up.

:51:07.:51:11.

But from angry locals to reluctant developers,

:51:12.:51:12.

there are also lots of obstacles in the way.

:51:13.:51:15.

They all love dressing up like builders but we still don't have

:51:16.:51:27.

So, people of my generation, as the Community

:51:28.:51:29.

Secretary said, can only window shop.

:51:30.:51:31.

On any high street today, you will see young people with their

:51:32.:51:34.

faces pressed against estate agents' windows dreaming of owning or

:51:35.:51:36.

All of our local councils have their own

:51:37.:51:42.

housing targets over the next decade or two.

:51:43.:51:45.

Add them all up and you've over 200,000 new homes.

:51:46.:51:50.

Or, to put it another way, another Bristol.

:51:51.:51:53.

Despite these grand targets, supply is way

:51:54.:52:00.

In Chippenham, it would appear to be an old-fashioned one.

:52:01.:52:04.

It's the last nice scenic landscape in the

:52:05.:52:06.

Steve Perry campaigns against urban sprawl on

:52:07.:52:09.

I came here because we love the town, but the bottom line

:52:10.:52:21.

is we're not building the housing people need.

:52:22.:52:23.

We're providing housing that people don't need.

:52:24.:52:25.

We're providing multinational housing developers

:52:26.:52:29.

with huge profits for selling corporate houses to people who don't

:52:30.:52:35.

A lack of affordable homes has seen campaigners take to the streets.

:52:36.:52:43.

Take this plan for 135 swanky new homes on an old factory

:52:44.:52:47.

Developers say they can only afford doing six affordable ones.

:52:48.:52:53.

The strength of feeling in Bristol is immense.

:52:54.:52:56.

People are desperate to have affordable housing.

:52:57.:52:59.

Actually, this is a fact that is of national

:53:00.:53:01.

If we don't have councils standing up to greedy,

:53:02.:53:06.

profiteering developers now, what will happen is in a few

:53:07.:53:09.

years we'll have a worse and worse housing crisis.

:53:10.:53:13.

At a planning meeting this week, councillors said they

:53:14.:53:17.

were powerless to change the plans and waved them through.

:53:18.:53:21.

I've repeatedly asked the developers to

:53:22.:53:23.

comment, but with planning in the bag, they've refused.

:53:24.:53:27.

So, is the answer for councils to don their own

:53:28.:53:29.

hard hats, high vis and build it themselves?

:53:30.:53:32.

These are council houses built on council land.

:53:33.:53:36.

This is your first interview in a hard hat

:53:37.:53:42.

Absolutely, but hopefully not the last one.

:53:43.:53:47.

You know, I'm hoping that I'll be spending a lot

:53:48.:53:50.

of time going around building sites in Bristol seeing lots of new

:53:51.:53:53.

In total, we're looking at sites that we are

:53:54.:53:57.

They won't all be built straightaway.

:53:58.:54:03.

Some of the schemes might take ten years, but we're

:54:04.:54:05.

absolutely dedicated in having as many homes built as possible.

:54:06.:54:13.

The Labour administration is planning to

:54:14.:54:16.

pump millions into setting up its own housing company for more like

:54:17.:54:19.

this in the hope of a housing wind of change.

:54:20.:54:24.

Marvin, you always said in the election campaign,

:54:25.:54:27.

You have a target - how is that going?

:54:28.:54:31.

2,000 a year by 2020 so we have to build our capacity.

:54:32.:54:34.

I'm not saying it will be plain sailing.

:54:35.:54:38.

It will be a real challenge to get there.

:54:39.:54:40.

It was always a stretched target but we've got committed

:54:41.:54:43.

political leadership and we are breaking ground.

:54:44.:54:44.

What are the biggest obstacles to getting housing built?

:54:45.:54:48.

Among the challenges we face, and there are many, is our power

:54:49.:54:51.

You were seeing their development on a private site that has minimal

:54:52.:54:57.

affordable housing and we're very limited in the power we have to

:54:58.:55:00.

It's one of the conversations that I, with the core cities,

:55:01.:55:07.

the ten biggest cities outside of London, are going to be talking

:55:08.:55:10.

How do you empower us as a city to make sure we get our share?

:55:11.:55:16.

So, you're saying your hands are tied?

:55:17.:55:19.

Well, the weighting of power when it comes to negotiations

:55:20.:55:22.

is in the hands of private developers unless it's on our land.

:55:23.:55:24.

One of the things we have done is stop selling off council-owned

:55:25.:55:27.

land so we can have much more control over the mix of housing.

:55:28.:55:32.

Do you have that problem in Wiltshire?

:55:33.:55:35.

Yes, we always have the problem of the number of houses that

:55:36.:55:38.

Interestingly, we are looking at perhaps modular housing.

:55:39.:55:42.

That means build houses that are built off-site.

:55:43.:55:45.

They are very different and there are a lot of new technologies.

:55:46.:55:52.

But that's the way you will get more houses built.

:55:53.:55:54.

Exactly, but these are very high-value houses

:55:55.:55:59.

If you go across to the continent, you will see many of

:56:00.:56:05.

So we want to look at that so we can get more of our 42,000 houses that

:56:06.:56:13.

we're going to have to build by 2026 built out quicker.

:56:14.:56:17.

How do you feel about the fact that, under this Conservative government,

:56:18.:56:20.

most, or many millions of young people, can wave goodbye

:56:21.:56:23.

Well, I think in Wiltshire that is our biggest priority.

:56:24.:56:35.

Yes, we need to look at social housing for very specific people

:56:36.:56:38.

but most of young people in Wiltshire, if they are in

:56:39.:56:41.

good jobs, they want to buy their own homes.

:56:42.:56:43.

So it's really important we get those houses built because,

:56:44.:56:46.

at the moment, there's not enough for them.

:56:47.:56:47.

This is one of the real crunch points.

:56:48.:56:49.

I take the point about modular housing as well.

:56:50.:56:52.

We have to look at all different ways of having

:56:53.:56:56.

It actually comes into context of the previous

:56:57.:57:00.

Some services we end up spending money on our because we haven't

:57:01.:57:04.

provided people with stable homes in the first instance.

:57:05.:57:06.

Of all the priorities we've set out, providing children and families

:57:07.:57:10.

with stable homes in settled communities where they have

:57:11.:57:12.

resilience built into the fabric of everyday life is one of the most

:57:13.:57:16.

significant social policy interventions we can make.

:57:17.:57:20.

And yet those sorts of services are being cut.

:57:21.:57:23.

Yes, that's why I'm saying we have two build in other ways as well.

:57:24.:57:26.

So, what I'm saying is some services come

:57:27.:57:29.

in because we haven't provided people with those

:57:30.:57:30.

We've talked about building homes, but homes and communities.

:57:31.:57:35.

It's the community bit that we need to build on.

:57:36.:57:44.

Rather than going to a GP, for example.

:57:45.:57:57.

they have a good network of neighbours to do some of the work

:57:58.:58:00.

of building resilience and relationships

:58:01.:58:02.

You have a target of building 226 social homes over

:58:03.:58:05.

That's not exactly going to go far, is it?

:58:06.:58:10.

No, but that's what we're spending money on ourselves so those

:58:11.:58:12.

will be very specific to our ageing population.

:58:13.:58:14.

They will be sheltered housing and extra care housing.

:58:15.:58:16.

What we will be expecting is our developers to provide the 30%

:58:17.:58:23.

which they haven't provided in the past and we

:58:24.:58:25.

And when you talk to developers and say, I want you to build

:58:26.:58:29.

a housing estate like this one near Chippenham and I need them

:58:30.:58:32.

to be affordable for people with young families,

:58:33.:58:34.

First is that they can't afford to do that.

:58:35.:58:37.

But you have two push them and we have delivered.

:58:38.:58:41.

We've delivered 600 out of the 2000 in the last year.

:58:42.:58:43.

We will continue to do that but those will be

:58:44.:58:46.

Well, we will our waiting to see what comes out of the next

:58:47.:58:54.

The big builders do have quite a lot of say when it comes

:58:55.:59:00.

to the rules on housing because they want to

:59:01.:59:03.

Yes, the viability assessment and they say they can't afford it.

:59:04.:59:11.

But I want to make a point and let developers know loud and clear,

:59:12.:59:14.

on the land we own in Bristol, we are looking for long-term

:59:15.:59:18.

relationships with developers who have a proven track record

:59:19.:59:21.

of delivering affordable homes on their sites.

:59:22.:59:25.

Those who do not have a track record will struggle to get an answer to...

:59:26.:59:30.

The other thing you need to say is not just our sites,

:59:31.:59:34.

it's all public sector sites so we should be looking

:59:35.:59:37.

The Ministry of Defence in Wiltshire, in particular.

:59:38.:59:42.

Well, we've got a property being disposed of at the moment

:59:43.:59:47.

by the MoJ and they haven't come to me to talk about it

:59:48.:59:50.

and they should have which is a problem.

:59:51.:59:52.

Let us have a look through the week in 60 seconds.

:59:53.:00:05.

The MP for South West Wiltshire will look into claims lives were put at

:00:06.:00:13.

risk by failures in the computer system that Dorset and Wiltshire

:00:14.:00:18.

fast service use. I'm alarmed we appear to have a system that

:00:19.:00:23.

routinely goes down. It's not acceptable to have ongoing issues of

:00:24.:00:30.

this sort. The system needs to be sorted. A parish councillor in

:00:31.:00:33.

Gloucestershire was asked to stand down after he was accused of posting

:00:34.:00:38.

Winter was also suspended by Ukip. Winter was also suspended by Ukip.

:00:39.:00:42.

Business projects across the West were given millions of pounds of the

:00:43.:00:49.

mid-money and among them aside apart based at GCHQ and centre to develop

:00:50.:00:51.

cars of the future at Bristol and cars of the future at Bristol and

:00:52.:00:55.

Bath science Park. North Somerset Council is bringing

:00:56.:00:59.

back traffic wardens after a 10-year absence, taking back enforcement

:01:00.:01:02.

powers from the police. Drivers go where. -- beware.

:01:03.:01:09.

So, that was the week. A couple of So, that was the week. A couple of

:01:10.:01:18.

other things. Brexit. Use it in the House of Lords and you voted Out.

:01:19.:01:22.

When you try and first-rate a hard Brexit will go along with what the

:01:23.:01:26.

buy minister once? I will go along with what the Prime Minister once

:01:27.:01:31.

but it's about what the people wanted in the referendum and they

:01:32.:01:35.

clearly said they wanted out of Europe and we should deliver what

:01:36.:01:39.

they want. Do you think they realised that it was out of the

:01:40.:01:44.

single market and all the other bits and pieces? Absolutely, the people I

:01:45.:01:48.

talk to know exactly what they voted for. What effect will Brexit have on

:01:49.:01:54.

Bristol? Not good. It was the wrong answer to the challenge. I don't

:01:55.:01:59.

have as much confidence that people were fully aware because during the

:02:00.:02:05.

time, the debate was confused and full of bluff and bluster. So it's a

:02:06.:02:10.

challenge for us and Bristol is an international city so we need our

:02:11.:02:14.

international and global collectivity. Do you think the Lords

:02:15.:02:19.

will succeed in confronting the Prime Minister even though she was

:02:20.:02:23.

there glowering at them? I do think she will come back in again. I think

:02:24.:02:29.

there will be challenges and amendments during the committee

:02:30.:02:32.

stage, but I hope they won't go through because we just need to

:02:33.:02:36.

think back to the referendum which said the people of this country

:02:37.:02:41.

wanted out of Europe. And talking about Mr Trump. His state visit in

:02:42.:02:50.

June. Should things get a bit noisy in London and they want to get him

:02:51.:02:55.

act of the smoke, perhaps due Birmingham, or Bristol. Would you

:02:56.:03:00.

welcome him? No, I wouldn't welcome him to Bristol but that is not a

:03:01.:03:04.

rejection of the relationship with US. There are men is not a rejection

:03:05.:03:07.

of the relationship with US. There are amazed that overseeing big

:03:08.:03:10.

economies we can build international relationships with. But you would

:03:11.:03:17.

not welcome Donald Trump? It is a bad brand of politics. What about

:03:18.:03:23.

Wiltshire? The president of the United States, I'm sure would be

:03:24.:03:26.

welcome at Stonehenge and that's the only places likely to want to come.

:03:27.:03:33.

I think we have two not think of it as Donald Trump but as the president

:03:34.:03:35.

of the United States. Thank you both Welcome back. Article 50, which

:03:36.:03:54.

triggers the beginning of Britain leaving the European Union and start

:03:55.:03:58.

negotiations, is winding its way through the Lords in this coming

:03:59.:04:03.

week. Tarzan has made an intervention, let's just see the

:04:04.:04:09.

headline from the Mail on Sunday. Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine,

:04:10.:04:14.

my fightback starts here, he is going to defy Theresa May. I divide

:04:15.:04:17.

one Prime Minister over the poll tax, I'm ready to defy this one in

:04:18.:04:22.

the Lords over Brexit. There we go, that's going to happen this week. We

:04:23.:04:28.

will see how far he gets. I don't think he will get very far, I don't

:04:29.:04:33.

think Loyalist Tory MPs and Brexiteers are quaking in their

:04:34.:04:37.

boots at the prospect of a rebellion led by Michael Heseltine. I sense

:04:38.:04:41.

that many Tory MPs are already moving on to the next question about

:04:42.:04:45.

Brexit, and the discussion over how much it will cost us to come out.

:04:46.:04:50.

The fact they are already debating that suggests to me they feel things

:04:51.:04:57.

will go fairly smoothly in terms of the legislation. When I spoke to the

:04:58.:05:00.

Labour leader in the Lords last week on the daily politics, she said she

:05:01.:05:05.

was going to push hard for the kind of amendments Lord has all-time is

:05:06.:05:12.

talking about and they would bring that back to the Commons. But if the

:05:13.:05:18.

Commons pinged it back to the Lords with the amendments taken out, she

:05:19.:05:21.

made it clear that was the end of it. Is that right? That's about

:05:22.:05:28.

right. This is probably really a large destruction. There will be to

:05:29.:05:32.

micro issues that come up in the Lords, one is on the future of EU

:05:33.:05:38.

nationals, that could be voted on as soon as this Wednesday, and then the

:05:39.:05:43.

main vote in the Lords on a week on Tuesday, when there is this question

:05:44.:05:47.

of what sort of vote will MPs and peers get at the end of the Brexit

:05:48.:05:52.

process and that is what has all-time is talking about. He wants

:05:53.:05:55.

to make sure there are guarantees in place. The kind of things peers are

:05:56.:06:00.

looking for are pretty moderate and the Government have hinted they

:06:01.:06:03.

could deliver on both of them already. But they are still not

:06:04.:06:08.

prepared... Amber Rudd said they were not prepared... They may say

:06:09.:06:14.

yes we are going to do that but they won't allow whatever that is to be

:06:15.:06:19.

enshrined in the legislation. The question is whether we think this is

:06:20.:06:23.

dancing on the head of a pin. The Government have already promised

:06:24.:06:26.

something in the House of Commons, but will they write it down, I don't

:06:27.:06:30.

think that's the biggest problem in the world. In a sense this is a

:06:31.:06:34.

great magicians trick by Theresa May because it is not the most important

:06:35.:06:40.

thing. The most important thing in Brexit is going on in those

:06:41.:06:44.

committees behind closed doors when they are trying to work out what the

:06:45.:06:46.

next migration system is for Britain and there are some interesting,

:06:47.:06:51.

indeed toxic proposals, but at the moment Downing Street are happy to

:06:52.:06:56.

let us talk about the constitutional propriety of what MPs are doing over

:06:57.:07:01.

the next eight days. It seems to me the irony is that if we had a second

:07:02.:07:05.

chamber that can claim some kind of democratic legitimacy, which the one

:07:06.:07:10.

we have cannot, it would be able to cause the Government more trouble on

:07:11.:07:15.

this, it would be more robust. Absolutely. I saw the interview we

:07:16.:07:18.

did with the Labour Leader of the Lords, they are very conscious, of

:07:19.:07:28.

the fact they are not elected and have limited powers. She was clear

:07:29.:07:32.

to you they would not impede the timetable for triggering Article 50

:07:33.:07:36.

so we might get a bit of theatre, Michael Heseltine might deliver a

:07:37.:07:41.

brilliant speech. It is interesting that Euroscepticism gun under

:07:42.:07:46.

Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party but two offer senior ministers Ken

:07:47.:07:51.

Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the most prominent opponents now but

:07:52.:07:54.

they will change nothing at this point. She will have the space to

:07:55.:07:59.

trigger Article 50 within her timetable. Let's move on. Let me

:08:00.:08:03.

show you a picture tweeted by Nigel Farage.

:08:04.:08:09.

That is Nigel Farage and a small group of people having dinner, and

:08:10.:08:17.

within that small group of people is the president of the United States,

:08:18.:08:21.

and it was taken in the last couple of days. This would suggest that if

:08:22.:08:26.

he can command that amount of the President's time in a small group of

:08:27.:08:31.

people, then he's actually rather close to the president. Make no

:08:32.:08:36.

mistake about it, Nigel Farage is now to and fro Washington more

:08:37.:08:39.

regularly than perhaps he is here. Hopefully that LBC programme is

:08:40.:08:47.

recorded over in the state. He's not only close to the president but to a

:08:48.:08:52.

series of people within the administration. That relationship

:08:53.:08:56.

there is a remarkable one and one to keep an eye on. Will the main

:08:57.:09:00.

government be tempted to tap into that relationship at any time or is

:09:01.:09:07.

it just seething with anger? You can feel a ripple of discontentment over

:09:08.:09:14.

this. We are in the middle of negotiating the state visit and the

:09:15.:09:17.

sort of pomp and circumstance and what kind of greeting Britain should

:09:18.:09:22.

give Donald Trump when he comes over later in the year. There is a great

:09:23.:09:25.

deal of neurotic thought going into what that should look like, but one

:09:26.:09:30.

of the most interesting things about our relationship with Donald Trump

:09:31.:09:33.

is that there is a nervousness among some Cabinet ministers that we are

:09:34.:09:37.

being seen to go too far, too fast with the prospect of a trade deal.

:09:38.:09:41.

Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet ministers, they worry we won't get a

:09:42.:09:45.

very good trade deal with the US and we are tolerably placing a lot of

:09:46.:09:49.

stalled by it. When we see the kind of deal they want to pitch with us

:09:50.:09:54.

there might be some pulling back and that could be an awkward moment in

:09:55.:10:02.

terms of our relationship, and no doubt Nigel at that term -- at that

:10:03.:10:04.

point will accuse the UK of doing the dirty on Donald Trump. If there

:10:05.:10:11.

was a deal, would they get it through the House of Commons? Nigel

:10:12.:10:18.

Farage is having dinner with the president, not bad as a kind of

:10:19.:10:22.

lifestyle but he's politically rootless, he won't be an MEP much

:10:23.:10:26.

longer so if you look at where is his political base to build on this

:10:27.:10:31.

great time he's having, there is one. Given that there is one I think

:10:32.:10:35.

he's just having a great time and it isn't much more significant than

:10:36.:10:39.

that. No? There's a lot to be said for having a great time. You are

:10:40.:10:51.

having a great time. Let's just look, because of the dominance of

:10:52.:10:57.

the Government we kind of it nor there are problems piling up, only

:10:58.:11:03.

what, ten days with the Budget to go, piling up for Mrs May and her

:11:04.:11:07.

government. The business rates which has alarmed a lot of Tories, this

:11:08.:11:13.

disability cuts which are really a serious problem for the Government,

:11:14.:11:17.

and the desperate need for more money for social care. There are

:11:18.:11:22.

other issues, there are problems there and they involve spending

:11:23.:11:26.

money. Absolutely and some people argue Theresa May has only one

:11:27.:11:29.

Monday and that is to deliver Brexit but it is impossible as a Prime

:11:30.:11:34.

Minister to ignore everything else. And she doesn't want to either. The

:11:35.:11:41.

bubbling issue of social care and the NHS is the biggest single

:11:42.:11:44.

problem for her in the weeks and months ahead, she has got to come up

:11:45.:11:48.

with something. And Mr Hammond will have to loosen his belt a little

:11:49.:11:53.

bit. I think he will in relation to the NHS, he didn't mention it in the

:11:54.:11:57.

Autumn Statement, which was remarkable, and he cannot get away

:11:58.:12:01.

with not mentioning it this time. If he mentions it, it has to be in a

:12:02.:12:04.

positive context in some way or another and it is one example of

:12:05.:12:09.

many. She is both strong because she is so far ahead in the opinion

:12:10.:12:14.

polls, but this in tray is one of the most daunting a Prime Minister

:12:15.:12:18.

has faced in recent times I think. Here is what will happen on Budget

:12:19.:12:24.

day, money will be more money, magically found down the back of the

:12:25.:12:31.

Treasury sofa. The projections are that he has wiggle room of about 12

:12:32.:12:35.

billion. But look at the bills, rebels involved in business rates

:12:36.:12:38.

suggest the Chancellor will have to throw up ?2 billion at that problem.

:12:39.:12:45.

3.7 billion is the potential cost of this judgment about disability

:12:46.:12:47.

benefits. The Government will try to find different ways of satisfying it

:12:48.:12:53.

but who knows. It will not popular. I'm not sure they will throw money

:12:54.:12:57.

at the NHS, they want an interim settlement on social care which will

:12:58.:13:00.

alleviate pressure on the NHS but they feel... That's another couple

:13:01.:13:06.

of billion by the way. They feel in the Treasury that the NHS has not

:13:07.:13:11.

delivered on what Simon Stevens promised them. But here is the

:13:12.:13:18.

bigger problem for Philip Hammond, he has two This year and he thinks

:13:19.:13:22.

the second one in the autumn is more important because that is when

:13:23.:13:24.

people will feel the cost living squeeze.

:13:25.:13:27.

The Daily Politics is back at noon on BBC Two tomorrow.

:13:28.:13:30.

We'll be back here at the same time next week.

:13:31.:13:33.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:39.

Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale, Ukip's Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society. Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.


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