26/02/2017 Sunday Politics West


26/02/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:41.:00:46.

Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,

:00:47.:00:47.

not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.

:00:48.:00:49.

But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,

:00:50.:00:50.

the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.

:00:51.:00:52.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,

:00:53.:00:55.

but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party

:00:56.:00:57.

The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.

:00:58.:01:08.

You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!

:01:09.:01:13.

And in the West: mocked for talking about the impact

:01:14.:01:23.

Local authorities raise tax and cut services this week.

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The leaders of our two biggest councils will be with me

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In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local

:01:28.:01:31.

authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?

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And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased

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to say have so far not been banned from the White House.

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I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,

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but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,

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We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last

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Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe

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British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it

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may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is

:02:15.:02:19.

difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a

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credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the

:02:26.:02:30.

campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin

:02:31.:02:33.

with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but

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they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's

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hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems

:02:43.:02:45.

they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If

:02:46.:02:51.

Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at

:02:52.:02:58.

the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind

:02:59.:03:03.

despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never

:03:04.:03:07.

more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's

:03:08.:03:12.

the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she

:03:13.:03:17.

faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher

:03:18.:03:22.

who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked

:03:23.:03:27.

like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up

:03:28.:03:33.

to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite

:03:34.:03:39.

often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK

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opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her

:03:45.:03:48.

agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips

:03:49.:03:53.

with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be

:03:54.:03:58.

for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both

:03:59.:04:03.

strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and

:04:04.:04:07.

very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more

:04:08.:04:12.

dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go

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wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think

:04:18.:04:20.

through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority

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of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put

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under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the

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two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or

:04:33.:04:40.

the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to

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operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party

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to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be

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disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that

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would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip

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coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the

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moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures

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might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite

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anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press

:05:15.:05:17.

ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a

:05:18.:05:24.

slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of

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transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people

:05:28.:05:32.

happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground

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and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in

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which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for

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today. Thursday was a big night

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for political obsessives like us, with not one but two

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significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain

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to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,

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the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just

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a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent

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were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall

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on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon

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is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning

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strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved

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to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result

:06:25.:06:27.

in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away

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in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another

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Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both

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places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal

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by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,

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Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,

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winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,

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where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it

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onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare

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that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory

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here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader

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played down the defeat, insisting his party's

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time would come. Are you going to stand again

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as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,

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don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat

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the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this

:07:31.:07:39.

weekend who have got But a few minutes later,

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it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,

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the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000

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votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight

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is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,

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but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18

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points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes

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I think is an incredible The morning after the night

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before, the losing parties were licking their wounds

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and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,

:08:29.:08:32.

Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,

:08:33.:08:36.

that era has gone. It's a new era, it is

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a second age for us. So that needs to be

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more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,

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you know, and that will We have to continue to improve

:08:51.:08:52.

in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,

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we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,

:09:03.:09:04.

is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come

:09:05.:09:06.

here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP

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for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived

:09:12.:09:14.

in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to

:09:15.:09:18.

Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour

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leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some

:09:23.:09:26.

theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost

:09:27.:09:28.

a seat to a governing party for the first time

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since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning

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looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -

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could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives

:09:42.:09:45.

who came out on top. No governing party has made

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a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army

:09:54.:09:55.

of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out

:09:56.:10:01.

here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain

:10:02.:10:06.

on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in

:10:07.:10:17.

Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring

:10:18.:10:20.

conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson

:10:21.:10:22.

warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat

:10:23.:10:27.

seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated

:10:28.:10:29.

south of the border. Well, I'm joined now

:10:30.:10:33.

by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost

:10:34.:10:48.

Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the

:10:49.:10:52.

UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would

:10:53.:10:57.

absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to

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support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing

:11:05.:11:07.

for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for

:11:08.:11:11.

everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn

:11:12.:11:14.

around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do

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while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we

:11:18.:11:24.

were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working

:11:25.:11:28.

class communities across the country, but we listened very hard

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to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm

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committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is

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committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in

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Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even

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Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will

:11:54.:11:59.

try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general

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election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm

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the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for

:12:08.:12:12.

our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish

:12:13.:12:14.

Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we

:12:15.:12:18.

stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity

:12:19.:12:22.

platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and

:12:23.:12:26.

invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also

:12:27.:12:30.

supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to

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a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together

:12:37.:12:40.

by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the

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federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that

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ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional

:12:49.:12:52.

Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party

:12:53.:12:59.

and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will

:13:00.:13:05.

take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party

:13:06.:13:10.

can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide

:13:11.:13:14.

Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.

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Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to

:13:22.:13:27.

carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level

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is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to

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prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not

:13:36.:13:38.

to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the

:13:39.:13:43.

point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say

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there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it

:13:49.:13:52.

and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of

:13:53.:13:56.

this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that

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happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder

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people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What

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evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an

:14:09.:14:14.

English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal

:14:15.:14:19.

regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell

:14:20.:14:22.

you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that

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here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.

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What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast

:14:34.:14:36.

that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the

:14:37.:14:40.

north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that

:14:41.:14:45.

Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel

:14:46.:14:48.

remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being

:14:49.:14:52.

exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in

:14:53.:14:55.

because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways

:14:56.:14:59.

it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is

:15:00.:15:08.

leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation

:15:09.:15:10.

of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers

:15:11.:15:13.

to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English

:15:14.:15:15.

context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the

:15:16.:15:20.

English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,

:15:21.:15:20.

correct? It is absolutely the policy of the

:15:21.:15:30.

UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention

:15:31.:15:35.

to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're

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promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not

:15:40.:15:43.

even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is

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not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to

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Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.

:15:52.:15:56.

United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not

:15:57.:16:00.

united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power

:16:01.:16:05.

in this country. It is not united on that

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issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard

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yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people

:16:33.:16:35.

like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local

:16:36.:16:37.

Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.

:16:38.:16:39.

Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the

:16:40.:16:41.

whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a

:16:42.:16:44.

conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come

:16:45.:16:46.

onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He

:16:47.:16:49.

wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish

:16:50.:16:51.

nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance

:16:52.:16:54.

yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear

:16:55.:16:59.

yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was

:17:00.:17:04.

saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people

:17:05.:17:08.

and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up

:17:09.:17:13.

living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is

:17:14.:17:17.

forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,

:17:18.:17:22.

it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the

:17:23.:17:26.

consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing

:17:27.:17:31.

under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with

:17:32.:17:45.

ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He

:17:46.:17:49.

said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last

:17:50.:17:52.

minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and

:17:53.:17:54.

reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish

:17:55.:17:57.

nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that

:17:58.:18:01.

even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of

:18:02.:18:04.

nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it

:18:05.:18:12.

is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.

:18:13.:18:16.

Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly

:18:17.:18:20.

refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the

:18:21.:18:27.

SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did

:18:28.:18:32.

not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is

:18:33.:18:36.

divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.

:18:37.:18:40.

Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in

:18:41.:18:46.

Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence

:18:47.:18:51.

question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want

:18:52.:18:54.

to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and

:18:55.:19:00.

no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers

:19:01.:19:04.

lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,

:19:05.:19:08.

your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he

:19:09.:19:13.

referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --

:19:14.:19:21.

and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive

:19:22.:19:25.

politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we

:19:26.:19:29.

are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from

:19:30.:19:33.

saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That

:19:34.:19:37.

is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really

:19:38.:19:42.

struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about

:19:43.:19:48.

being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear

:19:49.:19:54.

that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the

:19:55.:19:58.

length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is

:19:59.:20:03.

what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back

:20:04.:20:06.

together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'

:20:07.:20:11.

time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for

:20:12.:20:12.

joining us. Thursday's win for Labour

:20:13.:20:13.

in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:14.:20:15.

but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall

:20:16.:20:18.

there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's

:20:19.:20:20.

principal political Welcome to the programme. Good

:20:21.:20:31.

morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,

:20:32.:20:34.

months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip

:20:35.:20:41.

was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting

:20:42.:20:45.

Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of

:20:46.:20:49.

Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to

:20:50.:20:52.

make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in

:20:53.:20:58.

Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.

:20:59.:21:05.

We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment

:21:06.:21:09.

that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.

:21:10.:21:14.

Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.

:21:15.:21:19.

A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out

:21:20.:21:24.

publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of

:21:25.:21:28.

Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt

:21:29.:21:33.

about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well

:21:34.:21:36.

the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of

:21:37.:21:52.

Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are

:21:53.:21:55.

passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the

:21:56.:21:57.

most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What

:21:58.:21:59.

would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul

:22:00.:22:02.

Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic

:22:03.:22:06.

cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip

:22:07.:22:11.

supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was

:22:12.:22:18.

marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip

:22:19.:22:25.

to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning

:22:26.:22:29.

what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is

:22:30.:22:33.

counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more

:22:34.:22:38.

difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a

:22:39.:22:43.

Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against

:22:44.:22:49.

triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the

:22:50.:22:52.

Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It

:22:53.:22:54.

comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.

:22:55.:23:11.

You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,

:23:12.:23:14.

they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning

:23:15.:23:16.

Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso

:23:17.:23:18.

labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,

:23:19.:23:20.

it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a

:23:21.:23:23.

future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

:23:24.:23:28.

Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not

:23:29.:23:33.

recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around

:23:34.:23:36.

campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We

:23:37.:23:40.

believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working

:23:41.:23:43.

class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in

:23:44.:23:50.

Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable

:23:51.:23:55.

to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social

:23:56.:24:01.

solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation

:24:02.:24:05.

and community. We want an immigration system that is not only

:24:06.:24:09.

reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a

:24:10.:24:14.

whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When

:24:15.:24:18.

Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he

:24:19.:24:24.

was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It

:24:25.:24:31.

would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of

:24:32.:24:35.

Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions

:24:36.:24:38.

and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will

:24:39.:24:41.

fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true

:24:42.:24:45.

that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote

:24:46.:24:49.

might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and

:24:50.:24:54.

disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,

:24:55.:24:58.

Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant

:24:59.:25:03.

tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on

:25:04.:25:09.

immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the

:25:10.:25:13.

spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech

:25:14.:25:16.

before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the

:25:17.:25:23.

result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to

:25:24.:25:29.

set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you

:25:30.:25:33.

have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,

:25:34.:25:39.

do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and

:25:40.:25:44.

freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is

:25:45.:25:47.

certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,

:25:48.:25:52.

particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing

:25:53.:25:58.

to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.

:25:59.:26:01.

If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps

:26:02.:26:07.

to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the

:26:08.:26:12.

Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil

:26:13.:26:15.

Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As

:26:16.:26:21.

far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party

:26:22.:26:24.

formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He

:26:25.:26:28.

says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.

:26:29.:26:33.

He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What

:26:34.:26:39.

do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many

:26:40.:26:41.

months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas

:26:42.:26:46.

Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi

:26:47.:26:50.

chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the

:26:51.:26:57.

moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth

:26:58.:27:03.

running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I

:27:04.:27:05.

understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip

:27:06.:27:10.

if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.

:27:11.:27:15.

Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and

:27:16.:27:19.

support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate

:27:20.:27:23.

and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,

:27:24.:27:28.

people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the

:27:29.:27:31.

party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You

:27:32.:27:37.

have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it

:27:38.:27:42.

could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too

:27:43.:27:46.

optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'

:27:47.:27:50.

time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the

:27:51.:27:55.

guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a

:27:56.:28:00.

little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get

:28:01.:28:05.

seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will

:28:06.:28:09.

of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a

:28:10.:28:12.

magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.

:28:13.:28:14.

Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often

:28:15.:28:16.

should because this week it was pulled into

:28:17.:28:19.

the global spotlight, thanks

:28:20.:28:20.

Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that

:28:21.:28:29.

had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open

:28:30.:28:33.

Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred

:28:34.:28:36.

and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking

:28:37.:28:39.

about a report he had watched on Fox News.

:28:40.:28:42.

But as if to prove he was onto something,

:28:43.:28:45.

next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb

:28:46.:28:47.

with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas

:28:48.:28:50.

So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?

:28:51.:28:59.

In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second

:29:00.:29:02.

That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced

:29:03.:29:09.

border restrictions and stopped offering permanent

:29:10.:29:10.

Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,

:29:11.:29:18.

although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven

:29:19.:29:21.

Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants

:29:22.:29:30.

have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.

:29:31.:29:32.

Although the country does have the highest reported

:29:33.:29:34.

rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises

:29:35.:29:37.

were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.

:29:38.:29:42.

Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled

:29:43.:29:44.

Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes

:29:45.:29:50.

Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers

:29:51.:29:53.

We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the

:29:54.:30:06.

governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and

:30:07.:30:08.

The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,

:30:09.:30:24.

pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later

:30:25.:30:29.

serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm

:30:30.:30:33.

so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is

:30:34.:30:38.

misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is

:30:39.:30:43.

important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for

:30:44.:30:47.

the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate

:30:48.:30:50.

that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social

:30:51.:30:59.

unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical

:31:00.:31:02.

backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic

:31:03.:31:09.

reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of

:31:10.:31:13.

crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo

:31:14.:31:20.

attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that

:31:21.:31:25.

was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox

:31:26.:31:29.

News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that

:31:30.:31:34.

because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish

:31:35.:31:39.

authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant

:31:40.:31:45.

to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly

:31:46.:31:47.

the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides

:31:48.:31:53.

because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force

:31:54.:31:59.

which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of

:32:00.:32:04.

evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the

:32:05.:32:09.

rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the

:32:10.:32:12.

rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar

:32:13.:32:16.

forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian

:32:17.:32:21.

authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity

:32:22.:32:26.

so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of

:32:27.:32:32.

lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is

:32:33.:32:37.

difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many

:32:38.:32:42.

crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault

:32:43.:32:47.

are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman

:32:48.:32:52.

goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped

:32:53.:33:00.

her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as

:33:01.:33:06.

365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news

:33:07.:33:10.

from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the

:33:11.:33:14.

last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times

:33:15.:33:20.

higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo

:33:21.:33:26.

where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.

:33:27.:33:30.

Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now

:33:31.:33:34.

dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what

:33:35.:33:40.

I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for

:33:41.:33:45.

people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is

:33:46.:33:49.

a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we

:33:50.:33:55.

want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to

:33:56.:33:58.

receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because

:33:59.:34:04.

having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I

:34:05.:34:08.

think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at

:34:09.:34:13.

one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed

:34:14.:34:18.

that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it

:34:19.:34:22.

sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.

:34:23.:34:28.

Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do

:34:29.:34:31.

everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other

:34:32.:34:35.

countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you

:34:36.:34:40.

look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country

:34:41.:34:43.

they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live

:34:44.:34:48.

in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start

:34:49.:34:56.

enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The

:34:57.:35:03.

unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than

:35:04.:35:07.

non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and

:35:08.:35:12.

the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have

:35:13.:35:17.

brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do

:35:18.:35:22.

much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration

:35:23.:35:25.

that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated

:35:26.:35:30.

and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and

:35:31.:35:32.

working in different fields of society, and they help our country.

:35:33.:35:41.

Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes

:35:42.:35:47.

time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I

:35:48.:35:52.

put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a

:35:53.:35:55.

result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad

:35:56.:36:00.

as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can

:36:01.:36:04.

put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of

:36:05.:36:09.

these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.

:36:10.:36:16.

Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,

:36:17.:36:21.

they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees

:36:22.:36:26.

into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for

:36:27.:36:31.

the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge

:36:32.:36:34.

in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in

:36:35.:36:40.

Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt

:36:41.:36:44.

about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly

:36:45.:36:48.

exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish

:36:49.:36:54.

authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo

:36:55.:37:04.

registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010

:37:05.:37:14.

people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got

:37:15.:37:17.

to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are

:37:18.:37:24.

people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own

:37:25.:37:28.

agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our

:37:29.:37:34.

country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to

:37:35.:37:38.

people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say

:37:39.:37:42.

they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say

:37:43.:37:46.

again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.

:37:47.:37:51.

Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we

:37:52.:37:57.

have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped

:37:58.:38:01.

in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That

:38:02.:38:05.

happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An

:38:06.:38:09.

upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then

:38:10.:38:13.

total denial by an entire political class is now something that is

:38:14.:38:18.

happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial

:38:19.:38:21.

that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not

:38:22.:38:26.

answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to

:38:27.:38:33.

admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is

:38:34.:38:40.

covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by

:38:41.:38:44.

ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right

:38:45.:38:50.

parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what

:38:51.:38:54.

I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain

:38:55.:38:57.

way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background

:38:58.:39:01.

of the people living there but rather because of different

:39:02.:39:05.

socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows

:39:06.:39:11.

immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish

:39:12.:39:14.

authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and

:39:15.:39:18.

after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the

:39:19.:39:22.

Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual

:39:23.:39:26.

molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to

:39:27.:39:33.

think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out

:39:34.:39:37.

but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum

:39:38.:39:43.

seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in

:39:44.:39:47.

last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on

:39:48.:39:52.

getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do

:39:53.:39:56.

our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course

:39:57.:40:00.

on integration and making sure people get a job, and also

:40:01.:40:13.

on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for

:40:14.:40:16.

eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big

:40:17.:40:19.

tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am

:40:20.:40:22.

grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.

:40:23.:40:23.

It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:40:24.:40:26.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:40:27.:40:28.

the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat

:40:29.:40:42.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the West.

:40:43.:40:45.

Coming up: Building the dream - our local councils want to build

:40:46.:40:48.

200,000 new homes, but do they have any chance of doing so?

:40:49.:40:51.

With councils facing the squeeze, I'm joined by two people who've been

:40:52.:40:57.

They are the leaders of our two biggest local authorities.

:40:58.:41:03.

Baroness Jane Scott is the Conservative leader

:41:04.:41:05.

And Marvin Rees is the Labour Mayor of Bristol.

:41:06.:41:09.

It got rather rowdy in Bristol this week as the council set its budget.

:41:10.:41:17.

Proceedings were interrupted and police called as a ?16 million

:41:18.:41:21.

At other councils, services have also been slashed and taxes

:41:22.:41:31.

raised, prompting even conservatives to complain.

:41:32.:41:32.

We can say enough is enough, we can't take any more.

:41:33.:41:40.

We're going to stand together, we're going to fight

:41:41.:41:42.

And there were protests inside with pretty city councils

:41:43.:41:52.

budget setting meeting even suspended while the public

:41:53.:41:54.

Eventually, after six hours, the ruling Labour

:41:55.:41:57.

Council tax up 5%, jobs lost and services cut.

:41:58.:42:04.

The social glue that holds the city together is going to be eroded.

:42:05.:42:09.

All the things that we take for granted are going to be eroded

:42:10.:42:13.

and are going to disappear because of this.

:42:14.:42:18.

Our libraries, our community partnerships, our leisure

:42:19.:42:21.

How are parks going to pay for themselves?

:42:22.:42:26.

The same day, 25 miles away and quite a contrast.

:42:27.:42:31.

Wiltshire set their budget with the ruling

:42:32.:42:33.

We are seen as a pioneer in terms of pushing the boundaries

:42:34.:42:40.

and doing things differently from local government.

:42:41.:42:44.

One big difference, it's a unitary authority,

:42:45.:42:47.

Bristol and Wiltshire are similar in population

:42:48.:42:51.

providing similar services, but in different ways.

:42:52.:42:57.

A you years ago, Wiltshire reduced staffing and now relies more

:42:58.:43:04.

Both councils have similar numbers of libraries,

:43:05.:43:08.

but a third of Wiltshire's are run by volunteers.

:43:09.:43:10.

Bristol, by contrast, staffs all of its branches

:43:11.:43:16.

But not all Conservative councils are like Wiltshire as the Secretary

:43:17.:43:21.

of State for Local Government should have known when he came to Somerset

:43:22.:43:24.

this week for the launch of their campaign to keep control

:43:25.:43:27.

What we've seen here in Somerset County,

:43:28.:43:33.

through this manifesto, through some of the things that John

:43:34.:43:36.

has already talked about, is just what a difference you have

:43:37.:43:39.

made to people's lives right here the county.

:43:40.:43:43.

There are reduced library opening hours, reduced bin collections,

:43:44.:43:46.

absolutely no major road improvement schemes,

:43:47.:43:52.

cuts to drug advisory services, cuts to youth clubs,

:43:53.:43:55.

less funding to support the elderly in their own homes and

:43:56.:43:58.

This was a debate on local government funding the previous day.

:43:59.:44:04.

We have to now accept that in rural areas public services have not just

:44:05.:44:14.

been cut to the bone, they have had all the

:44:15.:44:16.

So, I try to find out if the Minister agreed

:44:17.:44:19.

People want to see their council tax bill go lower rather than higher

:44:20.:44:26.

so they accept that when changes do need to be made...

:44:27.:44:28.

So if the investment is going into adult social care,

:44:29.:44:31.

as it is in this coming financial year, I think pie

:44:32.:44:35.

They won't be cut if you have the right administration.

:44:36.:44:43.

But the MPs says, the Conservative MP here says they have cut things

:44:44.:44:46.

like drug advisory services, youth club, support for the elderly.

:44:47.:44:49.

What we've seen here is you've got the right leadership that

:44:50.:44:52.

has been making some of these tough decisions.

:44:53.:44:54.

That is to protect most vital services and that's

:44:55.:44:57.

There was no hint that cuts in funding for local

:44:58.:45:05.

On May the 4th, voters can decide who will take charge of cutting

:45:06.:45:10.

Jane Scott, which cut did you feel the most unhappy about?

:45:11.:45:20.

I'm always unhappy about making people redundant if I have two.

:45:21.:45:27.

Not make them compulsorily redundant and I hope I don't this year.

:45:28.:45:34.

You haven't mentioned a single cut in your speech.

:45:35.:45:37.

No, but my cabinet member responsible did to talk about 200

:45:38.:45:41.

job losses and hopefully those will all come from

:45:42.:45:43.

But support for adults with learning difficulties,

:45:44.:45:49.

reduced adult social care, reduced the ground repairs, reduced.

:45:50.:45:59.

Because we do differently in Wiltshire.

:46:00.:46:04.

You can see with what we've done with children's centres,

:46:05.:46:07.

And there are 867 volunteers, not 750.

:46:08.:46:10.

We try to deliver services in a more modern way and I think

:46:11.:46:22.

that is the key to the success of an authority.

:46:23.:46:25.

That, and doing things in a more businesslike way as well.

:46:26.:46:27.

OK, but your own government grant has been reduced by 17.6%.

:46:28.:46:30.

That is austerity being delivered from central government locally.

:46:31.:46:33.

Do you ever say to Theresa, that is enough?

:46:34.:46:37.

As Conservative councillors, particularly, we talk

:46:38.:46:40.

to our government about the fact that it has probably gone far enough

:46:41.:46:43.

and that if you look at what the government is doing

:46:44.:46:45.

and it's saying, no more grants from us, you're going to rely

:46:46.:46:48.

on your non-domestic rates and your council tax,

:46:49.:46:51.

But this is ruthless austerity, isn't it?

:46:52.:46:53.

Marvin, it's people like you that have two implement it.

:46:54.:46:57.

We are at city and local government level and it's a massive challenge.

:46:58.:47:11.

When we first started down this path, one of the things I was very

:47:12.:47:14.

concerned about was if people in Westminster hadn't really

:47:15.:47:16.

taken account of the fact that there is a cost to the cuts.

:47:17.:47:20.

If you impact on our ability to intervene earlier in people's

:47:21.:47:22.

lives, you have two build physical resilience, mental health

:47:23.:47:24.

into people's lives, jobs skills, they turn up requiring public

:47:25.:47:27.

services later on in life so it can be a false economy.

:47:28.:47:29.

Do you think people might ask, what was the point of electing

:47:30.:47:32.

Labour mayor who's going to impose Tory cuts?

:47:33.:47:34.

I don't think that's a justified question,

:47:35.:47:38.

but that's been one of the arguments of the critics.

:47:39.:47:41.

My point is that we've come in, we have a set of values and we've

:47:42.:47:44.

been driving through what we do in local government

:47:45.:47:46.

in a way that we believe is in line with our values.

:47:47.:47:49.

Protecting the most vulnerable in all possible ways.

:47:50.:47:51.

What I would also say is we've got to appreciate that Bristol is not

:47:52.:47:56.

We have two big universities, a huge private sector,

:47:57.:48:02.

other public sector organisations and a big voluntary sector.

:48:03.:48:05.

The real art of getting outcomes for people in Bristol has to look

:48:06.:48:08.

beyond just what the City Council does but to look at the collective,

:48:09.:48:11.

combined impact of all those organisations.

:48:12.:48:14.

Only today I was at a board meeting talking about

:48:15.:48:16.

the Local Enterprise Partnership talking about inclusive

:48:17.:48:20.

But you've still imposed ?60 million worth of cuts and you've got

:48:21.:48:32.

It's what our party requires and it's competence.

:48:33.:48:37.

One of the most important things we can do for Bristol

:48:38.:48:40.

is deliver a financially competent local authority.

:48:41.:48:42.

We have a challenging settlement from central government,

:48:43.:48:44.

we also are dealing with a very challenging inheritance surrounding

:48:45.:48:47.

mismanagement of the Council's finances and we are having to work

:48:48.:48:50.

What was the cut that you found the most difficult?

:48:51.:48:55.

Clearly, cuts surrounding children's services.

:48:56.:48:58.

This was big because, with my background in public health,

:48:59.:49:01.

I know that if you get children off to the best possible

:49:02.:49:03.

start in life, you build resilience into their lives.

:49:04.:49:07.

So, you are actually doing things you don't want to do?

:49:08.:49:09.

We are all doing things we don't want to do at a local level.

:49:10.:49:13.

It's about being a businesslike authority.

:49:14.:49:18.

When I moved to a unitary council in 2009, the back office costs

:49:19.:49:23.

for our council were 19% of our spend.

:49:24.:49:28.

By doing that, you are cutting your back offices and that then

:49:29.:49:33.

makes very little effect to your front line services.

:49:34.:49:36.

That's what a lot of councils have got to get very strong on and do

:49:37.:49:40.

Do you accept you might be able to take some advice from Wiltshire?

:49:41.:49:44.

We are working closely with our core city partners and I'm also a member

:49:45.:49:50.

of the global parliament of mayors so we are drawing on experiences

:49:51.:49:53.

of cities all around the world as to how they manage

:49:54.:49:55.

Again, we've got to get to a point where we understand that shaping

:49:56.:50:00.

life in a city is not just about local government.

:50:01.:50:02.

When we talk about cohesion in place, it's about the sports

:50:03.:50:10.

offer, football clubs, big employers, health services.

:50:11.:50:12.

How do we get the collective impact of those organisations?

:50:13.:50:18.

Are you surprised, on a political point, that despite the cuts

:50:19.:50:22.

which are happening in every single local authority, Labour

:50:23.:50:24.

This is a Westminster focused conversation.

:50:25.:50:35.

Labour is in charge of every core city, that's ten core cities.

:50:36.:50:38.

That's a third of the population and a big chunk

:50:39.:50:40.

So, if you take a Westminster view, which you shouldn't do

:50:41.:50:44.

at a regional level, but if you take a Westminster view

:50:45.:50:47.

of politics, Labour are having a tough time even though

:50:48.:50:49.

Coming down to a city level, Labour are actually in power.

:50:50.:50:59.

I think we should look at Copeland last night.

:51:00.:51:02.

One of the biggest challenges facing local councils is how

:51:03.:51:06.

In the West, we need another city the size of Bristol just to keep up.

:51:07.:51:11.

But from angry locals to reluctant developers,

:51:12.:51:12.

there are also lots of obstacles in the way.

:51:13.:51:15.

They all love dressing up like builders but we still don't have

:51:16.:51:27.

So, people of my generation, as the Community

:51:28.:51:29.

Secretary said, can only window shop.

:51:30.:51:31.

On any high street today, you will see young people with their

:51:32.:51:34.

faces pressed against estate agents' windows dreaming of owning or

:51:35.:51:36.

All of our local councils have their own

:51:37.:51:42.

housing targets over the next decade or two.

:51:43.:51:45.

Add them all up and you've over 200,000 new homes.

:51:46.:51:50.

Or, to put it another way, another Bristol.

:51:51.:51:53.

Despite these grand targets, supply is way

:51:54.:52:00.

In Chippenham, it would appear to be an old-fashioned one.

:52:01.:52:04.

It's the last nice scenic landscape in the

:52:05.:52:06.

Steve Perry campaigns against urban sprawl on

:52:07.:52:09.

I came here because we love the town, but the bottom line

:52:10.:52:21.

is we're not building the housing people need.

:52:22.:52:23.

We're providing housing that people don't need.

:52:24.:52:25.

We're providing multinational housing developers

:52:26.:52:29.

with huge profits for selling corporate houses to people who don't

:52:30.:52:35.

A lack of affordable homes has seen campaigners take to the streets.

:52:36.:52:43.

Take this plan for 135 swanky new homes on an old factory

:52:44.:52:47.

Developers say they can only afford doing six affordable ones.

:52:48.:52:53.

The strength of feeling in Bristol is immense.

:52:54.:52:56.

People are desperate to have affordable housing.

:52:57.:52:59.

Actually, this is a fact that is of national

:53:00.:53:01.

If we don't have councils standing up to greedy,

:53:02.:53:06.

profiteering developers now, what will happen is in a few

:53:07.:53:09.

years we'll have a worse and worse housing crisis.

:53:10.:53:13.

At a planning meeting this week, councillors said they

:53:14.:53:17.

were powerless to change the plans and waved them through.

:53:18.:53:21.

I've repeatedly asked the developers to

:53:22.:53:23.

comment, but with planning in the bag, they've refused.

:53:24.:53:27.

So, is the answer for councils to don their own

:53:28.:53:29.

hard hats, high vis and build it themselves?

:53:30.:53:32.

These are council houses built on council land.

:53:33.:53:36.

This is your first interview in a hard hat

:53:37.:53:42.

Absolutely, but hopefully not the last one.

:53:43.:53:47.

You know, I'm hoping that I'll be spending a lot

:53:48.:53:50.

of time going around building sites in Bristol seeing lots of new

:53:51.:53:53.

In total, we're looking at sites that we are

:53:54.:53:57.

They won't all be built straightaway.

:53:58.:54:03.

Some of the schemes might take ten years, but we're

:54:04.:54:05.

absolutely dedicated in having as many homes built as possible.

:54:06.:54:13.

The Labour administration is planning to

:54:14.:54:16.

pump millions into setting up its own housing company for more like

:54:17.:54:19.

this in the hope of a housing wind of change.

:54:20.:54:24.

Marvin, you always said in the election campaign,

:54:25.:54:27.

You have a target - how is that going?

:54:28.:54:31.

2,000 a year by 2020 so we have to build our capacity.

:54:32.:54:34.

I'm not saying it will be plain sailing.

:54:35.:54:38.

It will be a real challenge to get there.

:54:39.:54:40.

It was always a stretched target but we've got committed

:54:41.:54:43.

political leadership and we are breaking ground.

:54:44.:54:44.

What are the biggest obstacles to getting housing built?

:54:45.:54:48.

Among the challenges we face, and there are many, is our power

:54:49.:54:51.

You were seeing their development on a private site that has minimal

:54:52.:54:57.

affordable housing and we're very limited in the power we have to

:54:58.:55:00.

It's one of the conversations that I, with the core cities,

:55:01.:55:07.

the ten biggest cities outside of London, are going to be talking

:55:08.:55:10.

How do you empower us as a city to make sure we get our share?

:55:11.:55:16.

So, you're saying your hands are tied?

:55:17.:55:19.

Well, the weighting of power when it comes to negotiations

:55:20.:55:22.

is in the hands of private developers unless it's on our land.

:55:23.:55:24.

One of the things we have done is stop selling off council-owned

:55:25.:55:27.

land so we can have much more control over the mix of housing.

:55:28.:55:32.

Do you have that problem in Wiltshire?

:55:33.:55:35.

Yes, we always have the problem of the number of houses that

:55:36.:55:38.

Interestingly, we are looking at perhaps modular housing.

:55:39.:55:42.

That means build houses that are built off-site.

:55:43.:55:45.

They are very different and there are a lot of new technologies.

:55:46.:55:52.

But that's the way you will get more houses built.

:55:53.:55:54.

Exactly, but these are very high-value houses

:55:55.:55:59.

If you go across to the continent, you will see many of

:56:00.:56:05.

So we want to look at that so we can get more of our 42,000 houses that

:56:06.:56:13.

we're going to have to build by 2026 built out quicker.

:56:14.:56:17.

How do you feel about the fact that, under this Conservative government,

:56:18.:56:20.

most, or many millions of young people, can wave goodbye

:56:21.:56:23.

Well, I think in Wiltshire that is our biggest priority.

:56:24.:56:35.

Yes, we need to look at social housing for very specific people

:56:36.:56:38.

but most of young people in Wiltshire, if they are in

:56:39.:56:41.

good jobs, they want to buy their own homes.

:56:42.:56:43.

So it's really important we get those houses built because,

:56:44.:56:46.

at the moment, there's not enough for them.

:56:47.:56:47.

This is one of the real crunch points.

:56:48.:56:49.

I take the point about modular housing as well.

:56:50.:56:52.

We have to look at all different ways of having

:56:53.:56:56.

It actually comes into context of the previous

:56:57.:57:00.

Some services we end up spending money on our because we haven't

:57:01.:57:04.

provided people with stable homes in the first instance.

:57:05.:57:06.

Of all the priorities we've set out, providing children and families

:57:07.:57:10.

with stable homes in settled communities where they have

:57:11.:57:12.

resilience built into the fabric of everyday life is one of the most

:57:13.:57:16.

significant social policy interventions we can make.

:57:17.:57:20.

And yet those sorts of services are being cut.

:57:21.:57:23.

Yes, that's why I'm saying we have two build in other ways as well.

:57:24.:57:26.

So, what I'm saying is some services come

:57:27.:57:29.

in because we haven't provided people with those

:57:30.:57:30.

We've talked about building homes, but homes and communities.

:57:31.:57:35.

It's the community bit that we need to build on.

:57:36.:57:44.

Rather than going to a GP, for example.

:57:45.:57:57.

they have a good network of neighbours to do some of the work

:57:58.:58:00.

of building resilience and relationships

:58:01.:58:02.

You have a target of building 226 social homes over

:58:03.:58:05.

That's not exactly going to go far, is it?

:58:06.:58:10.

No, but that's what we're spending money on ourselves so those

:58:11.:58:12.

will be very specific to our ageing population.

:58:13.:58:14.

They will be sheltered housing and extra care housing.

:58:15.:58:16.

What we will be expecting is our developers to provide the 30%

:58:17.:58:23.

which they haven't provided in the past and we

:58:24.:58:25.

And when you talk to developers and say, I want you to build

:58:26.:58:29.

a housing estate like this one near Chippenham and I need them

:58:30.:58:32.

to be affordable for people with young families,

:58:33.:58:34.

First is that they can't afford to do that.

:58:35.:58:37.

But you have two push them and we have delivered.

:58:38.:58:41.

We've delivered 600 out of the 2000 in the last year.

:58:42.:58:43.

We will continue to do that but those will be

:58:44.:58:46.

Well, we will our waiting to see what comes out of the next

:58:47.:58:54.

The big builders do have quite a lot of say when it comes

:58:55.:59:00.

to the rules on housing because they want to

:59:01.:59:03.

Yes, the viability assessment and they say they can't afford it.

:59:04.:59:11.

But I want to make a point and let developers know loud and clear,

:59:12.:59:14.

on the land we own in Bristol, we are looking for long-term

:59:15.:59:18.

relationships with developers who have a proven track record

:59:19.:59:21.

of delivering affordable homes on their sites.

:59:22.:59:25.

Those who do not have a track record will struggle to get an answer to...

:59:26.:59:30.

The other thing you need to say is not just our sites,

:59:31.:59:34.

it's all public sector sites so we should be looking

:59:35.:59:37.

The Ministry of Defence in Wiltshire, in particular.

:59:38.:59:42.

Well, we've got a property being disposed of at the moment

:59:43.:59:47.

by the MoJ and they haven't come to me to talk about it

:59:48.:59:50.

and they should have which is a problem.

:59:51.:59:52.

Let us have a look through the week in 60 seconds.

:59:53.:00:05.

The MP for South West Wiltshire will look into claims lives were put at

:00:06.:00:13.

risk by failures in the computer system that Dorset and Wiltshire

:00:14.:00:18.

fast service use. I'm alarmed we appear to have a system that

:00:19.:00:23.

routinely goes down. It's not acceptable to have ongoing issues of

:00:24.:00:30.

this sort. The system needs to be sorted. A parish councillor in

:00:31.:00:33.

Gloucestershire was asked to stand down after he was accused of posting

:00:34.:00:38.

Winter was also suspended by Ukip. Winter was also suspended by Ukip.

:00:39.:00:42.

Business projects across the West were given millions of pounds of the

:00:43.:00:49.

mid-money and among them aside apart based at GCHQ and centre to develop

:00:50.:00:51.

cars of the future at Bristol and cars of the future at Bristol and

:00:52.:00:55.

Bath science Park. North Somerset Council is bringing

:00:56.:00:59.

back traffic wardens after a 10-year absence, taking back enforcement

:01:00.:01:02.

powers from the police. Drivers go where. -- beware.

:01:03.:01:09.

So, that was the week. A couple of So, that was the week. A couple of

:01:10.:01:18.

other things. Brexit. Use it in the House of Lords and you voted Out.

:01:19.:01:22.

When you try and first-rate a hard Brexit will go along with what the

:01:23.:01:26.

buy minister once? I will go along with what the Prime Minister once

:01:27.:01:31.

but it's about what the people wanted in the referendum and they

:01:32.:01:35.

clearly said they wanted out of Europe and we should deliver what

:01:36.:01:39.

they want. Do you think they realised that it was out of the

:01:40.:01:44.

single market and all the other bits and pieces? Absolutely, the people I

:01:45.:01:48.

talk to know exactly what they voted for. What effect will Brexit have on

:01:49.:01:54.

Bristol? Not good. It was the wrong answer to the challenge. I don't

:01:55.:01:59.

have as much confidence that people were fully aware because during the

:02:00.:02:05.

time, the debate was confused and full of bluff and bluster. So it's a

:02:06.:02:10.

challenge for us and Bristol is an international city so we need our

:02:11.:02:14.

international and global collectivity. Do you think the Lords

:02:15.:02:19.

will succeed in confronting the Prime Minister even though she was

:02:20.:02:23.

there glowering at them? I do think she will come back in again. I think

:02:24.:02:29.

there will be challenges and amendments during the committee

:02:30.:02:32.

stage, but I hope they won't go through because we just need to

:02:33.:02:36.

think back to the referendum which said the people of this country

:02:37.:02:41.

wanted out of Europe. And talking about Mr Trump. His state visit in

:02:42.:02:50.

June. Should things get a bit noisy in London and they want to get him

:02:51.:02:55.

act of the smoke, perhaps due Birmingham, or Bristol. Would you

:02:56.:03:00.

welcome him? No, I wouldn't welcome him to Bristol but that is not a

:03:01.:03:04.

rejection of the relationship with US. There are men is not a rejection

:03:05.:03:07.

of the relationship with US. There are amazed that overseeing big

:03:08.:03:10.

economies we can build international relationships with. But you would

:03:11.:03:17.

not welcome Donald Trump? It is a bad brand of politics. What about

:03:18.:03:23.

Wiltshire? The president of the United States, I'm sure would be

:03:24.:03:26.

welcome at Stonehenge and that's the only places likely to want to come.

:03:27.:03:33.

I think we have two not think of it as Donald Trump but as the president

:03:34.:03:35.

of the United States. Thank you both Welcome back. Article 50, which

:03:36.:03:54.

triggers the beginning of Britain leaving the European Union and start

:03:55.:03:58.

negotiations, is winding its way through the Lords in this coming

:03:59.:04:03.

week. Tarzan has made an intervention, let's just see the

:04:04.:04:09.

headline from the Mail on Sunday. Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine,

:04:10.:04:14.

my fightback starts here, he is going to defy Theresa May. I divide

:04:15.:04:17.

one Prime Minister over the poll tax, I'm ready to defy this one in

:04:18.:04:22.

the Lords over Brexit. There we go, that's going to happen this week. We

:04:23.:04:28.

will see how far he gets. I don't think he will get very far, I don't

:04:29.:04:33.

think Loyalist Tory MPs and Brexiteers are quaking in their

:04:34.:04:37.

boots at the prospect of a rebellion led by Michael Heseltine. I sense

:04:38.:04:41.

that many Tory MPs are already moving on to the next question about

:04:42.:04:45.

Brexit, and the discussion over how much it will cost us to come out.

:04:46.:04:50.

The fact they are already debating that suggests to me they feel things

:04:51.:04:57.

will go fairly smoothly in terms of the legislation. When I spoke to the

:04:58.:05:00.

Labour leader in the Lords last week on the daily politics, she said she

:05:01.:05:05.

was going to push hard for the kind of amendments Lord has all-time is

:05:06.:05:12.

talking about and they would bring that back to the Commons. But if the

:05:13.:05:18.

Commons pinged it back to the Lords with the amendments taken out, she

:05:19.:05:21.

made it clear that was the end of it. Is that right? That's about

:05:22.:05:28.

right. This is probably really a large destruction. There will be to

:05:29.:05:32.

micro issues that come up in the Lords, one is on the future of EU

:05:33.:05:38.

nationals, that could be voted on as soon as this Wednesday, and then the

:05:39.:05:43.

main vote in the Lords on a week on Tuesday, when there is this question

:05:44.:05:47.

of what sort of vote will MPs and peers get at the end of the Brexit

:05:48.:05:52.

process and that is what has all-time is talking about. He wants

:05:53.:05:55.

to make sure there are guarantees in place. The kind of things peers are

:05:56.:06:00.

looking for are pretty moderate and the Government have hinted they

:06:01.:06:03.

could deliver on both of them already. But they are still not

:06:04.:06:08.

prepared... Amber Rudd said they were not prepared... They may say

:06:09.:06:14.

yes we are going to do that but they won't allow whatever that is to be

:06:15.:06:19.

enshrined in the legislation. The question is whether we think this is

:06:20.:06:23.

dancing on the head of a pin. The Government have already promised

:06:24.:06:26.

something in the House of Commons, but will they write it down, I don't

:06:27.:06:30.

think that's the biggest problem in the world. In a sense this is a

:06:31.:06:34.

great magicians trick by Theresa May because it is not the most important

:06:35.:06:40.

thing. The most important thing in Brexit is going on in those

:06:41.:06:44.

committees behind closed doors when they are trying to work out what the

:06:45.:06:46.

next migration system is for Britain and there are some interesting,

:06:47.:06:51.

indeed toxic proposals, but at the moment Downing Street are happy to

:06:52.:06:56.

let us talk about the constitutional propriety of what MPs are doing over

:06:57.:07:01.

the next eight days. It seems to me the irony is that if we had a second

:07:02.:07:05.

chamber that can claim some kind of democratic legitimacy, which the one

:07:06.:07:10.

we have cannot, it would be able to cause the Government more trouble on

:07:11.:07:15.

this, it would be more robust. Absolutely. I saw the interview we

:07:16.:07:18.

did with the Labour Leader of the Lords, they are very conscious, of

:07:19.:07:28.

the fact they are not elected and have limited powers. She was clear

:07:29.:07:32.

to you they would not impede the timetable for triggering Article 50

:07:33.:07:36.

so we might get a bit of theatre, Michael Heseltine might deliver a

:07:37.:07:41.

brilliant speech. It is interesting that Euroscepticism gun under

:07:42.:07:46.

Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party but two offer senior ministers Ken

:07:47.:07:51.

Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the most prominent opponents now but

:07:52.:07:54.

they will change nothing at this point. She will have the space to

:07:55.:07:59.

trigger Article 50 within her timetable. Let's move on. Let me

:08:00.:08:03.

show you a picture tweeted by Nigel Farage.

:08:04.:08:09.

That is Nigel Farage and a small group of people having dinner, and

:08:10.:08:17.

within that small group of people is the president of the United States,

:08:18.:08:21.

and it was taken in the last couple of days. This would suggest that if

:08:22.:08:26.

he can command that amount of the President's time in a small group of

:08:27.:08:31.

people, then he's actually rather close to the president. Make no

:08:32.:08:36.

mistake about it, Nigel Farage is now to and fro Washington more

:08:37.:08:39.

regularly than perhaps he is here. Hopefully that LBC programme is

:08:40.:08:47.

recorded over in the state. He's not only close to the president but to a

:08:48.:08:52.

series of people within the administration. That relationship

:08:53.:08:56.

there is a remarkable one and one to keep an eye on. Will the main

:08:57.:09:00.

government be tempted to tap into that relationship at any time or is

:09:01.:09:07.

it just seething with anger? You can feel a ripple of discontentment over

:09:08.:09:14.

this. We are in the middle of negotiating the state visit and the

:09:15.:09:17.

sort of pomp and circumstance and what kind of greeting Britain should

:09:18.:09:22.

give Donald Trump when he comes over later in the year. There is a great

:09:23.:09:25.

deal of neurotic thought going into what that should look like, but one

:09:26.:09:30.

of the most interesting things about our relationship with Donald Trump

:09:31.:09:33.

is that there is a nervousness among some Cabinet ministers that we are

:09:34.:09:37.

being seen to go too far, too fast with the prospect of a trade deal.

:09:38.:09:41.

Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet ministers, they worry we won't get a

:09:42.:09:45.

very good trade deal with the US and we are tolerably placing a lot of

:09:46.:09:49.

stalled by it. When we see the kind of deal they want to pitch with us

:09:50.:09:54.

there might be some pulling back and that could be an awkward moment in

:09:55.:10:02.

terms of our relationship, and no doubt Nigel at that term -- at that

:10:03.:10:04.

point will accuse the UK of doing the dirty on Donald Trump. If there

:10:05.:10:11.

was a deal, would they get it through the House of Commons? Nigel

:10:12.:10:18.

Farage is having dinner with the president, not bad as a kind of

:10:19.:10:22.

lifestyle but he's politically rootless, he won't be an MEP much

:10:23.:10:26.

longer so if you look at where is his political base to build on this

:10:27.:10:31.

great time he's having, there is one. Given that there is one I think

:10:32.:10:35.

he's just having a great time and it isn't much more significant than

:10:36.:10:39.

that. No? There's a lot to be said for having a great time. You are

:10:40.:10:51.

having a great time. Let's just look, because of the dominance of

:10:52.:10:57.

the Government we kind of it nor there are problems piling up, only

:10:58.:11:03.

what, ten days with the Budget to go, piling up for Mrs May and her

:11:04.:11:07.

government. The business rates which has alarmed a lot of Tories, this

:11:08.:11:13.

disability cuts which are really a serious problem for the Government,

:11:14.:11:17.

and the desperate need for more money for social care. There are

:11:18.:11:22.

other issues, there are problems there and they involve spending

:11:23.:11:26.

money. Absolutely and some people argue Theresa May has only one

:11:27.:11:29.

Monday and that is to deliver Brexit but it is impossible as a Prime

:11:30.:11:34.

Minister to ignore everything else. And she doesn't want to either. The

:11:35.:11:41.

bubbling issue of social care and the NHS is the biggest single

:11:42.:11:44.

problem for her in the weeks and months ahead, she has got to come up

:11:45.:11:48.

with something. And Mr Hammond will have to loosen his belt a little

:11:49.:11:53.

bit. I think he will in relation to the NHS, he didn't mention it in the

:11:54.:11:57.

Autumn Statement, which was remarkable, and he cannot get away

:11:58.:12:01.

with not mentioning it this time. If he mentions it, it has to be in a

:12:02.:12:04.

positive context in some way or another and it is one example of

:12:05.:12:09.

many. She is both strong because she is so far ahead in the opinion

:12:10.:12:14.

polls, but this in tray is one of the most daunting a Prime Minister

:12:15.:12:18.

has faced in recent times I think. Here is what will happen on Budget

:12:19.:12:24.

day, money will be more money, magically found down the back of the

:12:25.:12:31.

Treasury sofa. The projections are that he has wiggle room of about 12

:12:32.:12:35.

billion. But look at the bills, rebels involved in business rates

:12:36.:12:38.

suggest the Chancellor will have to throw up ?2 billion at that problem.

:12:39.:12:45.

3.7 billion is the potential cost of this judgment about disability

:12:46.:12:47.

benefits. The Government will try to find different ways of satisfying it

:12:48.:12:53.

but who knows. It will not popular. I'm not sure they will throw money

:12:54.:12:57.

at the NHS, they want an interim settlement on social care which will

:12:58.:13:00.

alleviate pressure on the NHS but they feel... That's another couple

:13:01.:13:06.

of billion by the way. They feel in the Treasury that the NHS has not

:13:07.:13:11.

delivered on what Simon Stevens promised them. But here is the

:13:12.:13:18.

bigger problem for Philip Hammond, he has two This year and he thinks

:13:19.:13:22.

the second one in the autumn is more important because that is when

:13:23.:13:24.

people will feel the cost living squeeze.

:13:25.:13:27.

The Daily Politics is back at noon on BBC Two tomorrow.

:13:28.:13:30.

We'll be back here at the same time next week.

:13:31.:13:33.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:39.

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