26/02/2017 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Kezia Dugdale, Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society.

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,


not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.


But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,


the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.


Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,


but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party


The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.


You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!


And in the West: mocked for talking about the impact


Local authorities raise tax and cut services this week.


The leaders of our two biggest councils will be with me


In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local


authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?


And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased


to say have so far not been banned from the White House.


I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,


but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,


We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last


Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe


British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it


may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is


difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a


credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the


campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin


with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but


they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's


hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems


they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If


Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at


the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind


despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never


more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's


the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she


faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher


who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked


like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up


to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite


often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK


opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her


agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips


with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be


for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both


strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and


very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more


dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go


wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think


through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority


of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put


under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the


two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or


the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to


operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party


to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be


disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that


would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip


coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the


moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures


might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite


anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press


ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a


slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of


transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people


happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground


and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in


which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for


today. Thursday was a big night


for political obsessives like us, with not one but two


significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain


to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,


the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just


a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent


were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall


on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon


is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning


strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved


to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result


in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away


in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another


Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both


places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal


by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,


Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,


winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,


where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it


onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare


that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory


here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader


played down the defeat, insisting his party's


time would come. Are you going to stand again


as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,


don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat


the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this


weekend who have got But a few minutes later,


it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,


the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000


votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight


is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,


but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18


points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes


I think is an incredible The morning after the night


before, the losing parties were licking their wounds


and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,


Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,


that era has gone. It's a new era, it is


a second age for us. So that needs to be


more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,


you know, and that will We have to continue to improve


in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,


we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,


is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come


here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP


for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived


in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to


Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour


leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some


theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost


a seat to a governing party for the first time


since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning


looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -


could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives


who came out on top. No governing party has made


a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army


of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out


here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain


on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in


Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring


conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson


warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat


seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated


south of the border. Well, I'm joined now


by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost


Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the


UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would


absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to


support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing


for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for


everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn


around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do


while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we


were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working


class communities across the country, but we listened very hard


to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm


committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is


committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in


Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even


Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will


try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general


election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm


the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for


our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish


Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we


stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity


platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and


invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also


supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to


a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together


by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the


federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that


ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional


Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party


and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will


take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party


can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide


Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.


Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to


carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level


is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to


prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not


to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the


point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say


there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it


and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of


this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that


happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder


people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What


evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an


English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal


regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell


you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that


here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.


What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast


that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the


north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that


Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel


remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being


exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in


because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways


it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is


leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation


of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers


to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English


context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the


English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,


correct? It is absolutely the policy of the


UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention


to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're


promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not


even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is


not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to


Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.


United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not


united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power


in this country. It is not united on that


issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard


yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people


like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local


Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.


Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the


whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a


conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come


onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He


wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish


nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance


yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear


yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was


saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people


and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up


living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is


forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,


it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the


consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing


under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with


ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He


said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last


minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and


reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish


nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that


even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of


nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it


is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.


Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly


refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the


SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did


not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is


divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.


Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in


Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence


question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want


to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and


no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers


lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,


your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he


referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --


and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive


politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we


are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from


saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That


is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really


struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about


being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear


that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the


length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is


what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back


together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'


time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for


joining us. Thursday's win for Labour


in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,


but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall


there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's


principal political Welcome to the programme. Good


morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,


months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip


was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting


Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of


Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to


make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in


Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.


We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment


that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.


Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.


A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out


publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of


Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt


about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well


the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of


Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are


passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the


most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What


would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul


Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic


cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip


supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was


marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip


to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning


what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is


counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more


difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a


Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against


triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the


Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It


comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.


You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,


they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning


Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso


labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,


it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a


future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour


Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not


recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around


campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We


believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working


class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in


Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable


to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social


solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation


and community. We want an immigration system that is not only


reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a


whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When


Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he


was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It


would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of


Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions


and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will


fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true


that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote


might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and


disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,


Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant


tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on


immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the


spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech


before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the


result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to


set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you


have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,


do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and


freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is


certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,


particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing


to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.


If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps


to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the


Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil


Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As


far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party


formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He


says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.


He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What


do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many


months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas


Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi


chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the


moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth


running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I


understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip


if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.


Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and


support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate


and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,


people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the


party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You


have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it


could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too


optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'


time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the


guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a


little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get


seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will


of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a


magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.


Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often


should because this week it was pulled into


the global spotlight, thanks


Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that


had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open


Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred


and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking


about a report he had watched on Fox News.


But as if to prove he was onto something,


next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb


with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas


So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?


In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second


That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced


border restrictions and stopped offering permanent


Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,


although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven


Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants


have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.


Although the country does have the highest reported


rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises


were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.


Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled


Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes


Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers


We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the


governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and


The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,


pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later


serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm


so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is


misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is


important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for


the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate


that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social


unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical


backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic


reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of


crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo


attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that


was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox


News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that


because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish


authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant


to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly


the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides


because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force


which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of


evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the


rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the


rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar


forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian


authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity


so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of


lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is


difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many


crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault


are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman


goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped


her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as


365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news


from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the


last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times


higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo


where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.


Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now


dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what


I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for


people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is


a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we


want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to


receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because


having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I


think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at


one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed


that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it


sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.


Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do


everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other


countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you


look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country


they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live


in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start


enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The


unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than


non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and


the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have


brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do


much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration


that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated


and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and


working in different fields of society, and they help our country.


Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes


time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I


put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a


result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad


as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can


put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of


these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.


Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,


they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees


into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for


the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge


in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in


Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt


about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly


exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish


authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo


registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010


people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got


to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are


people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own


agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our


country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to


people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say


they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say


again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.


Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we


have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped


in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That


happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An


upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then


total denial by an entire political class is now something that is


happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial


that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not


answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to


admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is


covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by


ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right


parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what


I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain


way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background


of the people living there but rather because of different


socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows


immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish


authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and


after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the


Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual


molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to


think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out


but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum


seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in


last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on


getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do


our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course


on integration and making sure people get a job, and also


on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for


eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big


tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am


grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.


It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat


Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the West.


Coming up: Building the dream - our local councils want to build


200,000 new homes, but do they have any chance of doing so?


With councils facing the squeeze, I'm joined by two people who've been


They are the leaders of our two biggest local authorities.


Baroness Jane Scott is the Conservative leader


And Marvin Rees is the Labour Mayor of Bristol.


It got rather rowdy in Bristol this week as the council set its budget.


Proceedings were interrupted and police called as a ?16 million


At other councils, services have also been slashed and taxes


raised, prompting even conservatives to complain.


We can say enough is enough, we can't take any more.


We're going to stand together, we're going to fight


And there were protests inside with pretty city councils


budget setting meeting even suspended while the public


Eventually, after six hours, the ruling Labour


Council tax up 5%, jobs lost and services cut.


The social glue that holds the city together is going to be eroded.


All the things that we take for granted are going to be eroded


and are going to disappear because of this.


Our libraries, our community partnerships, our leisure


How are parks going to pay for themselves?


The same day, 25 miles away and quite a contrast.


Wiltshire set their budget with the ruling


We are seen as a pioneer in terms of pushing the boundaries


and doing things differently from local government.


One big difference, it's a unitary authority,


Bristol and Wiltshire are similar in population


providing similar services, but in different ways.


A you years ago, Wiltshire reduced staffing and now relies more


Both councils have similar numbers of libraries,


but a third of Wiltshire's are run by volunteers.


Bristol, by contrast, staffs all of its branches


But not all Conservative councils are like Wiltshire as the Secretary


of State for Local Government should have known when he came to Somerset


this week for the launch of their campaign to keep control


What we've seen here in Somerset County,


through this manifesto, through some of the things that John


has already talked about, is just what a difference you have


made to people's lives right here the county.


There are reduced library opening hours, reduced bin collections,


absolutely no major road improvement schemes,


cuts to drug advisory services, cuts to youth clubs,


less funding to support the elderly in their own homes and


This was a debate on local government funding the previous day.


We have to now accept that in rural areas public services have not just


been cut to the bone, they have had all the


So, I try to find out if the Minister agreed


People want to see their council tax bill go lower rather than higher


so they accept that when changes do need to be made...


So if the investment is going into adult social care,


as it is in this coming financial year, I think pie


They won't be cut if you have the right administration.


But the MPs says, the Conservative MP here says they have cut things


like drug advisory services, youth club, support for the elderly.


What we've seen here is you've got the right leadership that


has been making some of these tough decisions.


That is to protect most vital services and that's


There was no hint that cuts in funding for local


On May the 4th, voters can decide who will take charge of cutting


Jane Scott, which cut did you feel the most unhappy about?


I'm always unhappy about making people redundant if I have two.


Not make them compulsorily redundant and I hope I don't this year.


You haven't mentioned a single cut in your speech.


No, but my cabinet member responsible did to talk about 200


job losses and hopefully those will all come from


But support for adults with learning difficulties,


reduced adult social care, reduced the ground repairs, reduced.


Because we do differently in Wiltshire.


You can see with what we've done with children's centres,


And there are 867 volunteers, not 750.


We try to deliver services in a more modern way and I think


that is the key to the success of an authority.


That, and doing things in a more businesslike way as well.


OK, but your own government grant has been reduced by 17.6%.


That is austerity being delivered from central government locally.


Do you ever say to Theresa, that is enough?


As Conservative councillors, particularly, we talk


to our government about the fact that it has probably gone far enough


and that if you look at what the government is doing


and it's saying, no more grants from us, you're going to rely


on your non-domestic rates and your council tax,


But this is ruthless austerity, isn't it?


Marvin, it's people like you that have two implement it.


We are at city and local government level and it's a massive challenge.


When we first started down this path, one of the things I was very


concerned about was if people in Westminster hadn't really


taken account of the fact that there is a cost to the cuts.


If you impact on our ability to intervene earlier in people's


lives, you have two build physical resilience, mental health


into people's lives, jobs skills, they turn up requiring public


services later on in life so it can be a false economy.


Do you think people might ask, what was the point of electing


Labour mayor who's going to impose Tory cuts?


I don't think that's a justified question,


but that's been one of the arguments of the critics.


My point is that we've come in, we have a set of values and we've


been driving through what we do in local government


in a way that we believe is in line with our values.


Protecting the most vulnerable in all possible ways.


What I would also say is we've got to appreciate that Bristol is not


We have two big universities, a huge private sector,


other public sector organisations and a big voluntary sector.


The real art of getting outcomes for people in Bristol has to look


beyond just what the City Council does but to look at the collective,


combined impact of all those organisations.


Only today I was at a board meeting talking about


the Local Enterprise Partnership talking about inclusive


But you've still imposed ?60 million worth of cuts and you've got


It's what our party requires and it's competence.


One of the most important things we can do for Bristol


is deliver a financially competent local authority.


We have a challenging settlement from central government,


we also are dealing with a very challenging inheritance surrounding


mismanagement of the Council's finances and we are having to work


What was the cut that you found the most difficult?


Clearly, cuts surrounding children's services.


This was big because, with my background in public health,


I know that if you get children off to the best possible


start in life, you build resilience into their lives.


So, you are actually doing things you don't want to do?


We are all doing things we don't want to do at a local level.


It's about being a businesslike authority.


When I moved to a unitary council in 2009, the back office costs


for our council were 19% of our spend.


By doing that, you are cutting your back offices and that then


makes very little effect to your front line services.


That's what a lot of councils have got to get very strong on and do


Do you accept you might be able to take some advice from Wiltshire?


We are working closely with our core city partners and I'm also a member


of the global parliament of mayors so we are drawing on experiences


of cities all around the world as to how they manage


Again, we've got to get to a point where we understand that shaping


life in a city is not just about local government.


When we talk about cohesion in place, it's about the sports


offer, football clubs, big employers, health services.


How do we get the collective impact of those organisations?


Are you surprised, on a political point, that despite the cuts


which are happening in every single local authority, Labour


This is a Westminster focused conversation.


Labour is in charge of every core city, that's ten core cities.


That's a third of the population and a big chunk


So, if you take a Westminster view, which you shouldn't do


at a regional level, but if you take a Westminster view


of politics, Labour are having a tough time even though


Coming down to a city level, Labour are actually in power.


I think we should look at Copeland last night.


One of the biggest challenges facing local councils is how


In the West, we need another city the size of Bristol just to keep up.


But from angry locals to reluctant developers,


there are also lots of obstacles in the way.


They all love dressing up like builders but we still don't have


So, people of my generation, as the Community


Secretary said, can only window shop.


On any high street today, you will see young people with their


faces pressed against estate agents' windows dreaming of owning or


All of our local councils have their own


housing targets over the next decade or two.


Add them all up and you've over 200,000 new homes.


Or, to put it another way, another Bristol.


Despite these grand targets, supply is way


In Chippenham, it would appear to be an old-fashioned one.


It's the last nice scenic landscape in the


Steve Perry campaigns against urban sprawl on


I came here because we love the town, but the bottom line


is we're not building the housing people need.


We're providing housing that people don't need.


We're providing multinational housing developers


with huge profits for selling corporate houses to people who don't


A lack of affordable homes has seen campaigners take to the streets.


Take this plan for 135 swanky new homes on an old factory


Developers say they can only afford doing six affordable ones.


The strength of feeling in Bristol is immense.


People are desperate to have affordable housing.


Actually, this is a fact that is of national


If we don't have councils standing up to greedy,


profiteering developers now, what will happen is in a few


years we'll have a worse and worse housing crisis.


At a planning meeting this week, councillors said they


were powerless to change the plans and waved them through.


I've repeatedly asked the developers to


comment, but with planning in the bag, they've refused.


So, is the answer for councils to don their own


hard hats, high vis and build it themselves?


These are council houses built on council land.


This is your first interview in a hard hat


Absolutely, but hopefully not the last one.


You know, I'm hoping that I'll be spending a lot


of time going around building sites in Bristol seeing lots of new


In total, we're looking at sites that we are


They won't all be built straightaway.


Some of the schemes might take ten years, but we're


absolutely dedicated in having as many homes built as possible.


The Labour administration is planning to


pump millions into setting up its own housing company for more like


this in the hope of a housing wind of change.


Marvin, you always said in the election campaign,


You have a target - how is that going?


2,000 a year by 2020 so we have to build our capacity.


I'm not saying it will be plain sailing.


It will be a real challenge to get there.


It was always a stretched target but we've got committed


political leadership and we are breaking ground.


What are the biggest obstacles to getting housing built?


Among the challenges we face, and there are many, is our power


You were seeing their development on a private site that has minimal


affordable housing and we're very limited in the power we have to


It's one of the conversations that I, with the core cities,


the ten biggest cities outside of London, are going to be talking


How do you empower us as a city to make sure we get our share?


So, you're saying your hands are tied?


Well, the weighting of power when it comes to negotiations


is in the hands of private developers unless it's on our land.


One of the things we have done is stop selling off council-owned


land so we can have much more control over the mix of housing.


Do you have that problem in Wiltshire?


Yes, we always have the problem of the number of houses that


Interestingly, we are looking at perhaps modular housing.


That means build houses that are built off-site.


They are very different and there are a lot of new technologies.


But that's the way you will get more houses built.


Exactly, but these are very high-value houses


If you go across to the continent, you will see many of


So we want to look at that so we can get more of our 42,000 houses that


we're going to have to build by 2026 built out quicker.


How do you feel about the fact that, under this Conservative government,


most, or many millions of young people, can wave goodbye


Well, I think in Wiltshire that is our biggest priority.


Yes, we need to look at social housing for very specific people


but most of young people in Wiltshire, if they are in


good jobs, they want to buy their own homes.


So it's really important we get those houses built because,


at the moment, there's not enough for them.


This is one of the real crunch points.


I take the point about modular housing as well.


We have to look at all different ways of having


It actually comes into context of the previous


Some services we end up spending money on our because we haven't


provided people with stable homes in the first instance.


Of all the priorities we've set out, providing children and families


with stable homes in settled communities where they have


resilience built into the fabric of everyday life is one of the most


significant social policy interventions we can make.


And yet those sorts of services are being cut.


Yes, that's why I'm saying we have two build in other ways as well.


So, what I'm saying is some services come


in because we haven't provided people with those


We've talked about building homes, but homes and communities.


It's the community bit that we need to build on.


Rather than going to a GP, for example.


they have a good network of neighbours to do some of the work


of building resilience and relationships


You have a target of building 226 social homes over


That's not exactly going to go far, is it?


No, but that's what we're spending money on ourselves so those


will be very specific to our ageing population.


They will be sheltered housing and extra care housing.


What we will be expecting is our developers to provide the 30%


which they haven't provided in the past and we


And when you talk to developers and say, I want you to build


a housing estate like this one near Chippenham and I need them


to be affordable for people with young families,


First is that they can't afford to do that.


But you have two push them and we have delivered.


We've delivered 600 out of the 2000 in the last year.


We will continue to do that but those will be


Well, we will our waiting to see what comes out of the next


The big builders do have quite a lot of say when it comes


to the rules on housing because they want to


Yes, the viability assessment and they say they can't afford it.


But I want to make a point and let developers know loud and clear,


on the land we own in Bristol, we are looking for long-term


relationships with developers who have a proven track record


of delivering affordable homes on their sites.


Those who do not have a track record will struggle to get an answer to...


The other thing you need to say is not just our sites,


it's all public sector sites so we should be looking


The Ministry of Defence in Wiltshire, in particular.


Well, we've got a property being disposed of at the moment


by the MoJ and they haven't come to me to talk about it


and they should have which is a problem.


Let us have a look through the week in 60 seconds.


The MP for South West Wiltshire will look into claims lives were put at


risk by failures in the computer system that Dorset and Wiltshire


fast service use. I'm alarmed we appear to have a system that


routinely goes down. It's not acceptable to have ongoing issues of


this sort. The system needs to be sorted. A parish councillor in


Gloucestershire was asked to stand down after he was accused of posting


Winter was also suspended by Ukip. Winter was also suspended by Ukip.


Business projects across the West were given millions of pounds of the


mid-money and among them aside apart based at GCHQ and centre to develop


cars of the future at Bristol and cars of the future at Bristol and


Bath science Park. North Somerset Council is bringing


back traffic wardens after a 10-year absence, taking back enforcement


powers from the police. Drivers go where. -- beware.


So, that was the week. A couple of So, that was the week. A couple of


other things. Brexit. Use it in the House of Lords and you voted Out.


When you try and first-rate a hard Brexit will go along with what the


buy minister once? I will go along with what the Prime Minister once


but it's about what the people wanted in the referendum and they


clearly said they wanted out of Europe and we should deliver what


they want. Do you think they realised that it was out of the


single market and all the other bits and pieces? Absolutely, the people I


talk to know exactly what they voted for. What effect will Brexit have on


Bristol? Not good. It was the wrong answer to the challenge. I don't


have as much confidence that people were fully aware because during the


time, the debate was confused and full of bluff and bluster. So it's a


challenge for us and Bristol is an international city so we need our


international and global collectivity. Do you think the Lords


will succeed in confronting the Prime Minister even though she was


there glowering at them? I do think she will come back in again. I think


there will be challenges and amendments during the committee


stage, but I hope they won't go through because we just need to


think back to the referendum which said the people of this country


wanted out of Europe. And talking about Mr Trump. His state visit in


June. Should things get a bit noisy in London and they want to get him


act of the smoke, perhaps due Birmingham, or Bristol. Would you


welcome him? No, I wouldn't welcome him to Bristol but that is not a


rejection of the relationship with US. There are men is not a rejection


of the relationship with US. There are amazed that overseeing big


economies we can build international relationships with. But you would


not welcome Donald Trump? It is a bad brand of politics. What about


Wiltshire? The president of the United States, I'm sure would be


welcome at Stonehenge and that's the only places likely to want to come.


I think we have two not think of it as Donald Trump but as the president


of the United States. Thank you both Welcome back. Article 50, which


triggers the beginning of Britain leaving the European Union and start


negotiations, is winding its way through the Lords in this coming


week. Tarzan has made an intervention, let's just see the


headline from the Mail on Sunday. Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine,


my fightback starts here, he is going to defy Theresa May. I divide


one Prime Minister over the poll tax, I'm ready to defy this one in


the Lords over Brexit. There we go, that's going to happen this week. We


will see how far he gets. I don't think he will get very far, I don't


think Loyalist Tory MPs and Brexiteers are quaking in their


boots at the prospect of a rebellion led by Michael Heseltine. I sense


that many Tory MPs are already moving on to the next question about


Brexit, and the discussion over how much it will cost us to come out.


The fact they are already debating that suggests to me they feel things


will go fairly smoothly in terms of the legislation. When I spoke to the


Labour leader in the Lords last week on the daily politics, she said she


was going to push hard for the kind of amendments Lord has all-time is


talking about and they would bring that back to the Commons. But if the


Commons pinged it back to the Lords with the amendments taken out, she


made it clear that was the end of it. Is that right? That's about


right. This is probably really a large destruction. There will be to


micro issues that come up in the Lords, one is on the future of EU


nationals, that could be voted on as soon as this Wednesday, and then the


main vote in the Lords on a week on Tuesday, when there is this question


of what sort of vote will MPs and peers get at the end of the Brexit


process and that is what has all-time is talking about. He wants


to make sure there are guarantees in place. The kind of things peers are


looking for are pretty moderate and the Government have hinted they


could deliver on both of them already. But they are still not


prepared... Amber Rudd said they were not prepared... They may say


yes we are going to do that but they won't allow whatever that is to be


enshrined in the legislation. The question is whether we think this is


dancing on the head of a pin. The Government have already promised


something in the House of Commons, but will they write it down, I don't


think that's the biggest problem in the world. In a sense this is a


great magicians trick by Theresa May because it is not the most important


thing. The most important thing in Brexit is going on in those


committees behind closed doors when they are trying to work out what the


next migration system is for Britain and there are some interesting,


indeed toxic proposals, but at the moment Downing Street are happy to


let us talk about the constitutional propriety of what MPs are doing over


the next eight days. It seems to me the irony is that if we had a second


chamber that can claim some kind of democratic legitimacy, which the one


we have cannot, it would be able to cause the Government more trouble on


this, it would be more robust. Absolutely. I saw the interview we


did with the Labour Leader of the Lords, they are very conscious, of


the fact they are not elected and have limited powers. She was clear


to you they would not impede the timetable for triggering Article 50


so we might get a bit of theatre, Michael Heseltine might deliver a


brilliant speech. It is interesting that Euroscepticism gun under


Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party but two offer senior ministers Ken


Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the most prominent opponents now but


they will change nothing at this point. She will have the space to


trigger Article 50 within her timetable. Let's move on. Let me


show you a picture tweeted by Nigel Farage.


That is Nigel Farage and a small group of people having dinner, and


within that small group of people is the president of the United States,


and it was taken in the last couple of days. This would suggest that if


he can command that amount of the President's time in a small group of


people, then he's actually rather close to the president. Make no


mistake about it, Nigel Farage is now to and fro Washington more


regularly than perhaps he is here. Hopefully that LBC programme is


recorded over in the state. He's not only close to the president but to a


series of people within the administration. That relationship


there is a remarkable one and one to keep an eye on. Will the main


government be tempted to tap into that relationship at any time or is


it just seething with anger? You can feel a ripple of discontentment over


this. We are in the middle of negotiating the state visit and the


sort of pomp and circumstance and what kind of greeting Britain should


give Donald Trump when he comes over later in the year. There is a great


deal of neurotic thought going into what that should look like, but one


of the most interesting things about our relationship with Donald Trump


is that there is a nervousness among some Cabinet ministers that we are


being seen to go too far, too fast with the prospect of a trade deal.


Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet ministers, they worry we won't get a


very good trade deal with the US and we are tolerably placing a lot of


stalled by it. When we see the kind of deal they want to pitch with us


there might be some pulling back and that could be an awkward moment in


terms of our relationship, and no doubt Nigel at that term -- at that


point will accuse the UK of doing the dirty on Donald Trump. If there


was a deal, would they get it through the House of Commons? Nigel


Farage is having dinner with the president, not bad as a kind of


lifestyle but he's politically rootless, he won't be an MEP much


longer so if you look at where is his political base to build on this


great time he's having, there is one. Given that there is one I think


he's just having a great time and it isn't much more significant than


that. No? There's a lot to be said for having a great time. You are


having a great time. Let's just look, because of the dominance of


the Government we kind of it nor there are problems piling up, only


what, ten days with the Budget to go, piling up for Mrs May and her


government. The business rates which has alarmed a lot of Tories, this


disability cuts which are really a serious problem for the Government,


and the desperate need for more money for social care. There are


other issues, there are problems there and they involve spending


money. Absolutely and some people argue Theresa May has only one


Monday and that is to deliver Brexit but it is impossible as a Prime


Minister to ignore everything else. And she doesn't want to either. The


bubbling issue of social care and the NHS is the biggest single


problem for her in the weeks and months ahead, she has got to come up


with something. And Mr Hammond will have to loosen his belt a little


bit. I think he will in relation to the NHS, he didn't mention it in the


Autumn Statement, which was remarkable, and he cannot get away


with not mentioning it this time. If he mentions it, it has to be in a


positive context in some way or another and it is one example of


many. She is both strong because she is so far ahead in the opinion


polls, but this in tray is one of the most daunting a Prime Minister


has faced in recent times I think. Here is what will happen on Budget


day, money will be more money, magically found down the back of the


Treasury sofa. The projections are that he has wiggle room of about 12


billion. But look at the bills, rebels involved in business rates


suggest the Chancellor will have to throw up ?2 billion at that problem.


3.7 billion is the potential cost of this judgment about disability


benefits. The Government will try to find different ways of satisfying it


but who knows. It will not popular. I'm not sure they will throw money


at the NHS, they want an interim settlement on social care which will


alleviate pressure on the NHS but they feel... That's another couple


of billion by the way. They feel in the Treasury that the NHS has not


delivered on what Simon Stevens promised them. But here is the


bigger problem for Philip Hammond, he has two This year and he thinks


the second one in the autumn is more important because that is when


people will feel the cost living squeeze.


The Daily Politics is back at noon on BBC Two tomorrow.


We'll be back here at the same time next week.


Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale, Ukip's Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society. Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.

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