26/03/2017 Sunday Politics West


26/03/2017

Andrew Neil and David Garmston discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:43.:00:47.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

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but do the security services have the resources and

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We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

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As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

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Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

:00:59.:01:04.

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

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I will be joined by two West Country and the party's

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I will be joined by two West Country MPs who were in Westminster during

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the And with me - as always -

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the best and the brightest political panel in the business -

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Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting

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throughout the programme. First, it was the most

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deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying

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to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four

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people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical

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condition in hospital. His target was the very

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heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,

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and he came within metres of the Prime Minister

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and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions

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of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,

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fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome

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could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,

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getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of

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all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many

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ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as

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Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is

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as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she

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is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it

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looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like

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Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows

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through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,

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not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this

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question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be

:03:04.:03:08.

restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at

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the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting

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things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that

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occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what

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and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we

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have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it

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is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we

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deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used

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to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal

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risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place

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at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm

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not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on

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just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are

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very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is

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the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda

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point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of

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Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and

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local people, international visitors, reacting much better than

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they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an

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appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city

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riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a

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better advertisement for the values that is attacking.

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OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,

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what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,

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but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest

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on the investigation. According to a police timeline,

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that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive

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through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into

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Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,

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before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes

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to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released

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a statement saying: "We would like to express our

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gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last

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moments and who were There was nothing more

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you could have done, you did your best and we are just

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grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive

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may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,

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despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has

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such encrypted messaging There should be no place

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for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that

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organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others

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like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists

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to communicate with each other. It used to be that people

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would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted

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to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,

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but in this situation we need to make sure

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that our intelligence services have the ability to get

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into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry

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to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,

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although she didn't rule out But for those caught up

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in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that

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will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague

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by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,

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Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the

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aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively

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supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot

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of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,

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this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been

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supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands

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of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist

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community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,

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illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as

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well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan

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Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European

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link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is

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an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is

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not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course

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in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he

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launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've

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seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the

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attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the

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fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat

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dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle

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to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a

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secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a

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trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last

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couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately

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in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency

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services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and

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Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not

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completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being

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stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted

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attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and

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that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted

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attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them

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get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting

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through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly

:09:23.:09:27.

something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look

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at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from

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what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really

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appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the

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edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target

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list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of

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radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to

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monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the

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blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a

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sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work

:10:09.:10:12.

and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities

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have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this

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morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe

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Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is

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difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.

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What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases

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we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,

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encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in

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the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a

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real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a

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stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully

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intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged

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via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an

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inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through

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appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law

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enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back

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that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We

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know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the

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Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes

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to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for

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her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I

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would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more

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consistent interception of communication in all parts of the

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way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,

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thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now

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is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us

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about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are

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looked after by some very courageous, very professional police

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officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as

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you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very

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carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that

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need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by

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professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...

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Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,

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particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as

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security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there

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are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be

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made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get

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some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was

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always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start

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to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed

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armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,

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because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,

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the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not

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the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security

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arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I

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don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed

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commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards

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removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of

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Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in

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particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide

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how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard

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sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of

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staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details

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of the operation but my understanding is that the number of

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people available is what the police and the security authorities working

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together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate

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with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident

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unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they

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were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career

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with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I

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think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any

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lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are

:15:03.:15:06.

still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police

:15:07.:15:11.

officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity

:15:12.:15:17.

of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates

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were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening

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to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was

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able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a

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particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to

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judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are

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trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we

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have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police

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officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be

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a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of

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that. We know the attacker was stopped in

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his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the

:16:08.:16:13.

armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I

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cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were

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other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker

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from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible

:16:28.:16:34.

for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,

:16:35.:16:38.

carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended

:16:39.:16:41.

with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament

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and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been

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mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are

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dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised

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by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not

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debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,

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I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear

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that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the

:17:25.:17:28.

security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said

:17:29.:17:34.

to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that

:17:35.:17:41.

there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual

:17:42.:17:47.

officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to

:17:48.:17:51.

strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at

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Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward

:17:57.:18:02.

to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions

:18:03.:18:10.

of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not

:18:11.:18:18.

just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security

:18:19.:18:23.

engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we

:18:24.:18:27.

don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are

:18:28.:18:31.

armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking

:18:32.:18:37.

you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our

:18:38.:18:41.

security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain

:18:42.:18:46.

places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we

:18:47.:18:50.

rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from

:18:51.:18:55.

Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to

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get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,

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and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might

:19:05.:19:08.

need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the

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triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the

:19:15.:19:18.

European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told

:19:19.:19:23.

Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of

:19:24.:19:27.

the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do

:19:28.:19:34.

you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of

:19:35.:19:38.

negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the

:19:39.:19:45.

EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British

:19:46.:19:49.

national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make

:19:50.:19:56.

of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of

:19:57.:19:59.

negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that

:20:00.:20:07.

it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between

:20:08.:20:12.

the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues

:20:13.:20:17.

from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy

:20:18.:20:21.

co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a

:20:22.:20:25.

substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU

:20:26.:20:32.

relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit

:20:33.:20:38.

need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship

:20:39.:20:43.

that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining

:20:44.:20:47.

member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.

:20:48.:20:52.

Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and

:20:53.:20:56.

join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we

:20:57.:21:00.

will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies

:21:01.:21:04.

and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a

:21:05.:21:18.

deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce

:21:19.:21:22.

bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or

:21:23.:21:25.

do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to

:21:26.:21:30.

run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?

:21:31.:21:35.

I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into

:21:36.:21:40.

negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with

:21:41.:21:44.

Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved

:21:45.:21:49.

too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each

:21:50.:21:53.

other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the

:21:54.:21:57.

Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime

:21:58.:22:06.

Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,

:22:07.:22:11.

for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we

:22:12.:22:16.

want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term

:22:17.:22:25.

payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government

:22:26.:22:30.

ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that

:22:31.:22:34.

is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the

:22:35.:22:38.

negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave

:22:39.:22:46.

side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of

:22:47.:22:50.

50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks

:22:51.:23:02.

that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the

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situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic

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obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last

:23:11.:23:15.

year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the

:23:16.:23:19.

opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.

:23:20.:23:24.

Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper

:23:25.:23:28.

will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't

:23:29.:23:32.

announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's

:23:33.:23:39.

say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it

:23:40.:23:42.

will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a

:23:43.:23:48.

dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?

:23:49.:23:55.

No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal

:23:56.:24:01.

obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they

:24:02.:24:07.

stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example

:24:08.:24:15.

refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a

:24:16.:24:20.

UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary

:24:21.:24:25.

legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This

:24:26.:24:34.

is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and

:24:35.:24:40.

the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in

:24:41.:24:44.

what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in

:24:45.:24:49.

voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,

:24:50.:24:53.

will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny

:24:54.:24:58.

process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant

:24:59.:25:04.

committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone

:25:05.:25:08.

else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I

:25:09.:25:12.

hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,

:25:13.:25:18.

but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament

:25:19.:25:24.

itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being

:25:25.:25:26.

with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -

:25:27.:25:27.

Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip

:25:28.:25:30.

from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,

:25:31.:25:32.

but yesterday announced that he was quitting

:25:33.:25:33.

to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came

:25:34.:25:35.

in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy

:25:36.:25:37.

little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage

:25:38.:25:40.

turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock

:25:41.:25:44.

and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum

:25:45.:25:46.

campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU

:25:47.:25:51.

campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official

:25:52.:25:54.

Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former

:25:55.:26:00.

Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell

:26:01.:26:02.

of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,

:26:03.:26:04.

writing that, Announcing his resignation

:26:05.:26:06.

on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately

:26:07.:26:14.

wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that

:26:15.:26:16.

that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving

:26:17.:26:19.

Ukip." When Mr Carswell left

:26:20.:26:22.

the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,

:26:23.:26:24.

triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission

:26:25.:26:27.

from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has

:26:28.:26:30.

said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford

:26:31.:26:39.

by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are

:26:40.:26:50.

you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm

:26:51.:26:57.

always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary

:26:58.:27:03.

level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been

:27:04.:27:07.

adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his

:27:08.:27:12.

relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a

:27:13.:27:16.

hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring

:27:17.:27:20.

the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it

:27:21.:27:25.

seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone

:27:26.:27:29.

and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did

:27:30.:27:35.

Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your

:27:36.:27:38.

national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the

:27:39.:27:42.

National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues

:27:43.:27:45.

that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the

:27:46.:27:50.

knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and

:27:51.:27:56.

his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he

:27:57.:28:02.

under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they

:28:03.:28:06.

would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not

:28:07.:28:13.

saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced

:28:14.:28:16.

difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and

:28:17.:28:25.

I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane

:28:26.:28:30.

James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by

:28:31.:28:36.

election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now

:28:37.:28:41.

stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday

:28:42.:28:47.

on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4

:28:48.:29:04.

million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be

:29:05.:29:09.

happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,

:29:10.:29:11.

restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be

:29:12.:29:16.

launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used

:29:17.:29:21.

to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that

:29:22.:29:26.

would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way

:29:27.:29:30.

of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've

:29:31.:29:36.

only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to

:29:37.:29:40.

restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial

:29:41.:29:44.

footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a

:29:45.:29:49.

party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,

:29:50.:29:54.

tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it

:29:55.:29:58.

wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't

:29:59.:30:05.

have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.

:30:06.:30:10.

Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has

:30:11.:30:14.

been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we

:30:15.:30:19.

get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just

:30:20.:30:24.

submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you

:30:25.:30:35.

pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.

:30:36.:30:39.

In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News

:30:40.:30:43.

that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since

:30:44.:30:48.

the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the

:30:49.:30:53.

relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald

:30:54.:30:57.

Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has

:30:58.:31:02.

said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a

:31:03.:31:06.

small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the

:31:07.:31:12.

relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point

:31:13.:31:26.

about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on

:31:27.:31:30.

that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives

:31:31.:31:32.

and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you

:31:33.:31:34.

track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.

:31:35.:31:37.

Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of

:31:38.:31:40.

Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the

:31:41.:31:44.

wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably

:31:45.:31:48.

become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,

:31:49.:31:53.

should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called

:31:54.:31:56.

by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know

:31:57.:32:00.

certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always

:32:01.:32:06.

keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a

:32:07.:32:08.

by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening

:32:09.:32:15.

nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have

:32:16.:32:20.

Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not

:32:21.:32:29.

switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a

:32:30.:32:32.

difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,

:32:33.:32:37.

if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time

:32:38.:32:40.

an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,

:32:41.:32:45.

far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,

:32:46.:32:49.

that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm

:32:50.:32:53.

being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a

:32:54.:32:58.

change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every

:32:59.:33:04.

constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents

:33:05.:33:10.

to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every

:33:11.:33:15.

house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if

:33:16.:33:20.

20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure

:33:21.:33:23.

they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several

:33:24.:33:29.

by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the

:33:30.:33:32.

electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,

:33:33.:33:39.

would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I

:33:40.:33:44.

have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently

:33:45.:33:48.

you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa

:33:49.:33:55.

May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago

:33:56.:34:00.

she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about

:34:01.:34:04.

making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50

:34:05.:34:08.

would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip

:34:09.:34:13.

exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be

:34:14.:34:15.

cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made

:34:16.:34:21.

it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the

:34:22.:34:25.

referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea

:34:26.:34:29.

I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly

:34:30.:34:35.

rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,

:34:36.:34:40.

broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in

:34:41.:34:43.

Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that

:34:44.:34:46.

the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just

:34:47.:34:50.

angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we

:34:51.:34:58.

have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence

:34:59.:35:04.

in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking

:35:05.:35:07.

the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed

:35:08.:35:11.

because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we

:35:12.:35:15.

move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at

:35:16.:35:20.

Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the

:35:21.:35:24.

referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage

:35:25.:35:29.

front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it

:35:30.:35:36.

on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he

:35:37.:35:40.

is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we

:35:41.:35:44.

wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit

:35:45.:35:49.

because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the

:35:50.:35:53.

population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,

:35:54.:35:57.

why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is

:35:58.:36:01.

happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that

:36:02.:36:04.

Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a

:36:05.:36:09.

single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue

:36:10.:36:13.

pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue

:36:14.:36:17.

pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and

:36:18.:36:21.

I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an

:36:22.:36:25.

exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in

:36:26.:36:30.

Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said

:36:31.:36:34.

she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would

:36:35.:36:39.

get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last

:36:40.:36:42.

year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this

:36:43.:36:46.

country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take

:36:47.:36:50.

yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is

:36:51.:36:54.

they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May

:36:55.:36:59.

is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's

:37:00.:37:03.

celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,

:37:04.:37:08.

until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime

:37:09.:37:10.

ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still

:37:11.:37:15.

paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large

:37:16.:37:18.

divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd

:37:19.:37:22.

and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a

:37:23.:37:31.

Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go

:37:32.:37:34.

wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our

:37:35.:37:40.

turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,

:37:41.:37:44.

book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and

:37:45.:37:49.

order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have

:37:50.:37:53.

confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.

:37:54.:37:57.

You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that

:37:58.:38:03.

Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would

:38:04.:38:08.

you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable

:38:09.:38:12.

being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch

:38:13.:38:15.

of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being

:38:16.:38:23.

independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look

:38:24.:38:27.

at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We

:38:28.:38:31.

only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next

:38:32.:38:34.

general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very

:38:35.:38:38.

much. Hello and welcome to

:38:39.:38:53.

the Sunday Politics here I hope you remembered

:38:54.:38:56.

to put your clocks forward. As the PM prepares to trigger

:38:57.:39:03.

Article 50 is Brexit the perfect But first, it's been

:39:04.:39:09.

an extraordinary and With me are two MPs

:39:10.:39:13.

who were in the Commons during the attack on Wednesday,

:39:14.:39:19.

Labour's Kerry McCarthy and I guess on occasions like this

:39:20.:39:21.

politics don't matter, do they? I had just arrived to vote

:39:22.:39:30.

when clearly something happened and we were told to go

:39:31.:39:44.

into the Commons chamber And there were a few

:39:45.:39:47.

hundred MPs in there It was only later that I found out

:39:48.:39:51.

quite what had happened. We were looking at social media

:39:52.:39:59.

and getting phone calls but I think the people who were in the MPs'

:40:00.:40:02.

offices or outside the building saw a lot more and obviously a very

:40:03.:40:05.

frightening experience for them. Geoffrey, you were saying

:40:06.:40:09.

you were frightened for your staff My office overlooks Bridge Street

:40:10.:40:18.

and the first thing they knew was this huge bang which was the car

:40:19.:40:23.

going into the wall. They saw the car having been

:40:24.:40:26.

ploughed into the wall, The driver got out,

:40:27.:40:30.

ran round the railings They saw him with two

:40:31.:40:34.

knives stab the policeman. The policeman took three

:40:35.:40:41.

steps back and collapsed. And within seconds as it turns out

:40:42.:40:46.

Michael Fallon's security detail had So they literally

:40:47.:40:48.

saw the whole thing. They also saw what didn't come

:40:49.:40:54.

from the news for a long time, the carnage that the car caused

:40:55.:40:57.

by driving the whole way over Westminster Bridge,

:40:58.:41:04.

ploughing into pedestrians Certainly the lady that works for me

:41:05.:41:05.

is still affected by it. It is a deeply shocking

:41:06.:41:10.

thing to have happened. Has it changed you at all

:41:11.:41:12.

being so close to it? It was a subdued mood

:41:13.:41:16.

in Westminster on Thursday. Parliament sat as normal which I

:41:17.:41:23.

think was the right thing to do. We had a minute's silence

:41:24.:41:26.

and there was a statement from the Prime Minister with some

:41:27.:41:29.

very moving tributes, particularly from James Cleverly,

:41:30.:41:31.

Geoffrey's colleague, who had served with the police

:41:32.:41:34.

officer Keith Palmer, in the Army. But we look back and it's

:41:35.:41:41.

less than a year since And in the immediate aftermath

:41:42.:41:43.

of that people said this is going to change the way we do

:41:44.:41:47.

politics, we need to respect our politicians more,

:41:48.:41:50.

we need a gentler dialogue, We went into public life to serve

:41:51.:41:52.

the people of this country, to help our country be

:41:53.:42:06.

a better place. Frankly, if we let the terrorists

:42:07.:42:18.

interrupt what we do in our democracy, then to a degree

:42:19.:42:20.

they have won. It is imperative for our

:42:21.:42:22.

democracy that we carry on. In some ways it makes

:42:23.:42:25.

you take your role more seriously because sometimes you can forget,

:42:26.:42:27.

you turn up, it's your day job, even though you're in the Palace

:42:28.:42:30.

of Westminster, the importance of your role doesn't

:42:31.:42:33.

always strike you. Something like this, you think,

:42:34.:42:34.

we do have an important role to play Sorry, Kerry, I've always

:42:35.:42:37.

accepted a degree of risk. I always thought that something

:42:38.:42:41.

like this might happen, and God forbid that it

:42:42.:42:45.

never happens again. But if you are in a place

:42:46.:42:48.

that is so much the focus of the country's activities

:42:49.:42:51.

you are inevitably at risk. But of course the place

:42:52.:42:54.

is like a fortress. Not all the police there are armed

:42:55.:42:57.

but a lot of them are. Imagine that London became too

:42:58.:43:01.

difficult to attack perhaps, landmarks like that,

:43:02.:43:05.

and the terrorists moved out, perhaps targeted

:43:06.:43:08.

the Cotswolds or Bristol How long would it take to get

:43:09.:43:09.

an armed officer to the scene? We can't have armed

:43:10.:43:20.

officers everywhere. It just wouldn't be practical

:43:21.:43:22.

to have an armed officer in the marketplace in Cirencester,

:43:23.:43:27.

even on a 12-hour basis, And in any case I think

:43:28.:43:30.

the terrorists will always find somewhere where they can get a car

:43:31.:43:34.

or a lorry and a crowd of people, where there isn't

:43:35.:43:37.

necessarily an armed officer. Kerry, in most of the world

:43:38.:43:39.

the police are armed. If there'd been an armed

:43:40.:43:48.

police officer when Jo Cox It wouldn't have saved

:43:49.:43:50.

her life, I think. And we don't want to live

:43:51.:43:56.

in a country that's I think it is still important

:43:57.:43:58.

that Parliament remains But you are saying if

:43:59.:44:01.

Parliament was sealed off. I think it's quite important for our

:44:02.:44:07.

democracy that it is somewhere that people can come and lobby their MPs

:44:08.:44:10.

but clearly the security But, God forbid, but a man

:44:11.:44:13.

with a gun or a knife, somewhere miles away from an armed

:44:14.:44:19.

police officer, there was help within seconds at Westminster,

:44:20.:44:21.

it could be 20 minutes, In a market town it's a job

:44:22.:44:24.

enough to get a policeman there even once a week,

:44:25.:44:32.

let alone have an armed We have been through all this

:44:33.:44:34.

before with the IRA, the bombings, God forbid,

:44:35.:44:40.

Birmingham and other cities. I'm just hopeful that this whole

:44:41.:44:44.

thing won't now spread. Any thoughts from you about how

:44:45.:44:46.

we could improve security? We have heard that the police have

:44:47.:44:49.

instigated assessments My concern in Bristol

:44:50.:44:52.

is for my staff because a lot of the time I will be in Parliament

:44:53.:45:02.

where the security is much higher. So we've had much stronger

:45:03.:45:05.

security put in there. I'm sure security will be

:45:06.:45:10.

reviewed all the way round and there are more things

:45:11.:45:14.

we could do. Theresa May will begin the process

:45:15.:45:17.

of leaving the EU next week. She says it's going

:45:18.:45:22.

to be an historic day. Swindon voted for Leave,

:45:23.:45:34.

and has plenty to gain, or lose, depending on your point

:45:35.:45:36.

of view, from Brexit. It has wealth and major

:45:37.:45:38.

international employers alongside So on the eve of our departure

:45:39.:45:40.

from Europe Martin Jones has been finding out if Swindon's enthusiasm

:45:41.:45:44.

for Brexit is still strong. Wasdell Packaging, on the edge

:45:45.:45:47.

of Swindon, puts pills in the packs If you've ever wondered how

:45:48.:45:50.

the pills and the medicines that we all rely on every day get

:45:51.:45:57.

to us in packs like these, well, They are put in a hopper there,

:45:58.:46:01.

it gets processed along here, and then they get sorted

:46:02.:46:07.

and packed by hand. And crucially they are then

:46:08.:46:10.

exported all over the world. This product is off

:46:11.:46:14.

to Romania, Estonia, Italy, Italy, Germany,

:46:15.:46:17.

France. Like many global exporters

:46:18.:46:33.

the owner supported Remain. You might think that leaving the EU

:46:34.:46:35.

would be a bitter pill to swallow. Business-wise, if we take 2015-2016,

:46:36.:46:38.

we turned over 22 million. So business for us

:46:39.:46:41.

is very, very good. It's because the weak pound means

:46:42.:46:53.

export sales have soared and they are doing so well they want

:46:54.:46:56.

to expand, creating hundreds of new What will happen

:46:57.:46:59.

to a workforce drawn The staff is not

:47:00.:47:05.

coping very well to be We have 54 different nationalities

:47:06.:47:08.

work within the group. I'm asked on a daily basis,

:47:09.:47:14.

will we be sent home? As I tell all the staff,

:47:15.:47:18.

not to worry, things are very But not everyone

:47:19.:47:21.

shares his confidence. The local councillor

:47:22.:47:32.

is a passionate Remainer who fears big firms

:47:33.:47:33.

could scale back in Swindon causing

:47:34.:47:35.

unemployment and fear. Swindon is a multicultural

:47:36.:47:37.

town and we are very proud that we lived in racial

:47:38.:47:39.

harmony for many years. And I'm deeply concerned about

:47:40.:47:45.

the developments that are currently This is Park South in Swindon,

:47:46.:47:48.

fertile ground for the Brexit campaigners which is

:47:49.:47:57.

where I meet the man who was Swindon's Vote Leave

:47:58.:47:59.

coordinator, appropriately The general consensus

:48:00.:48:01.

though is that people who actually supported

:48:02.:48:09.

Remain are saying we just That message of get on the third is

:48:10.:48:32.

supported by most people I speak to whether Leave or Remain. It is a

:48:33.:48:37.

long and drawn out process. It is either get on with it or don't

:48:38.:48:42.

bother. I like to have this country back with its people again. It does

:48:43.:48:48.

poke its nose into much, the common market. Even though you are a remain

:48:49.:48:52.

are happy that she is getting on with it? Yes, the people have

:48:53.:48:56.

decided to leave the European Union. She has to do that. That is the will

:48:57.:49:02.

of the people. We are all believers know any sense? Yes. You have two

:49:03.:49:11.

follow the majority. It is sometimes said the Brexit deal will involve

:49:12.:49:15.

the most complex negotiations of all time. Perhaps a delivery from

:49:16.:49:19.

Swindon will help with the late nights and the headaches.

:49:20.:49:29.

Kerry, you were obviously they remain, have you no decided, let us

:49:30.:49:32.

get on with it and put your position to one side? Most importantly, we

:49:33.:49:38.

know that the Prime Minister has said she will trigger article 50

:49:39.:49:43.

next week. My concern will be that we don't rush headlong into a hard

:49:44.:49:47.

Brexit. There are still so many unanswered questions about what our

:49:48.:49:51.

access to the single market would be. The rates of EU nationals, as we

:49:52.:49:55.

saw in that film. From a Labour point of view, the food sector,

:49:56.:50:02.

hospitality, farming, how are they going to survive? My concern is the

:50:03.:50:10.

detail. There is not going to be a second referendum now. But I have so

:50:11.:50:15.

many concerns that the Government is not prepared for this, has not got

:50:16.:50:20.

it through, that it will have major implications. It is a combination of

:50:21.:50:23.

trying to get the best deal we can but also to point out where the

:50:24.:50:27.

Government is failing and to ring the alarm bell that we are heading

:50:28.:50:31.

for disaster, which I think we are. Do you? Do you? No. Your

:50:32.:50:38.

constituency voted narrowly in favour of Remain and you were a

:50:39.:50:48.

Leaver. Our people reconciled to it? I do not think people are

:50:49.:50:53.

reconciled. I do not think there will be a disaster around the

:50:54.:50:58.

corner. Our country can become an open country trading around the

:50:59.:51:02.

world but I agree we need to offer maximum reassurance to people like

:51:03.:51:06.

those employees in the film, but that they are legally here, they

:51:07.:51:10.

will be welcome to stay here. You would rather do that right now. I

:51:11.:51:14.

have asked the Prime Minister a question in Parliament, that we need

:51:15.:51:18.

to get on that, as soon as possible, to give them that reissues that they

:51:19.:51:21.

are welcome here. You have met farmers this last week, what are

:51:22.:51:28.

they saying? Virus generally, just generalising, they were generally in

:51:29.:51:32.

favour of leaving. And they know having remorse? A little bit, yes.

:51:33.:51:38.

They are beginning to wonder what is going to happen to them. I was

:51:39.:51:41.

trying to give them what we shouldn't I could. The present

:51:42.:51:48.

system will remain until 2020. Thereafter the Government will need

:51:49.:51:52.

to decide on their subsidies. The EU are already talking this week about

:51:53.:51:56.

a ?50 billion bill before they even start talking about that. In the

:51:57.:52:02.

article 50 wording it makes it very clear that there is no legal

:52:03.:52:07.

obligation to pay that money. If we do it it will be on a specific basis

:52:08.:52:12.

for a specific item that we get in return. But we could perhaps be 50

:52:13.:52:19.

billion in return for free trading for five years or something like

:52:20.:52:23.

that? It is conceivable that it is more likely that we will pay

:52:24.:52:27.

something and nothing like 50 billion for participating in a joint

:52:28.:52:30.

research programme. The benefits are beginning to slip away? We will no

:52:31.:52:37.

longer be paying a huge PEG. We will not get any of the benefits back. We

:52:38.:52:42.

will not be paying that. A significant amount of money. A ?10

:52:43.:52:48.

billion benefit. Barriers to trade. We may be me not, it depends on how

:52:49.:52:55.

the negotiation pans out. We can be pessimistic. We should look forward

:52:56.:52:58.

to this. It is going to happen. Are you looking forward to it? No, take

:52:59.:53:04.

farming, I am on the select committee, and there is an enquiry

:53:05.:53:08.

into labour shortages in food and farming. We have had people come to

:53:09.:53:14.

us, and asparagus grower, saying the asparagus will rot in the guide

:53:15.:53:21.

because there is no one to picket. Nine since Brexit has been bad, so

:53:22.:53:29.

why should it change. Look at the value of the pound. In Swindon it

:53:30.:53:37.

was proving beneficial but other people are finding it expensive but

:53:38.:53:40.

from the Labour point of view if we do not have access to EU workers

:53:41.:53:42.

that are prepared to work in food, that are prepared to work in food,

:53:43.:53:47.

food processing, hospitality, the evidence we were given... Why should

:53:48.:53:52.

we not have access to them? We will. If freedom of movement goes, this is

:53:53.:53:58.

all part and parcel, when people voted to Leave they voted for

:53:59.:54:01.

restrictions on immigration, if we do not have those restrictions on

:54:02.:54:05.

immigration what people voted for? We will. It is one of the great

:54:06.:54:08.

benefits of leaving, this country will be able to make its own

:54:09.:54:12.

decisions on immigration, we will not lead to disconnect in favour of

:54:13.:54:16.

Europeans, they can come in from all over the world. We have got two more

:54:17.:54:19.

years of this. We believe that today. The local

:54:20.:54:25.

election campaign of 2017 is up and running you will be pleased to know.

:54:26.:54:29.

In five and a half weeks' time the polls will open for most of us in

:54:30.:54:33.

the West to see who will take charge. Policies are planned and

:54:34.:54:38.

manifestos printed. As the local effort worthwhile when many will be

:54:39.:54:41.

more swayed by what is happening in national politics?

:54:42.:54:48.

Leaflets are being printed, activists mobilise, canvassers sent

:54:49.:54:52.

onto the streets. You can tell there is an election coming, but does all

:54:53.:54:55.

this make much difference to how people will vote in May? Roger's

:54:56.:55:00.

corridors of power have been conservative dominated for two

:55:01.:55:05.

decades. The leader and her deputy are proud of their record but it is

:55:06.:55:10.

little noticed by the electorate who are instead swayed by national

:55:11.:55:14.

politics. It is always frustrating for local Government, we do not get

:55:15.:55:19.

this in turn out as the central Government elections, and it

:55:20.:55:22.

frustrates me that on the doorstep they will be talking about Brexit

:55:23.:55:25.

and Theresa May, but you have to keep biting your message out. We

:55:26.:55:29.

have got a good message and Wiltshire. One party unashamedly

:55:30.:55:32.

focusing on local issues are the Liberal Democrats. In the office

:55:33.:55:37.

they sought through leaflets for the Metro mere contest that they want to

:55:38.:55:42.

shout about but's exit from Europe. We are up for a fight, we ought to

:55:43.:55:48.

show this Brexit Government that we can win this election. It is giving

:55:49.:55:50.

us the biggest opportunity that you us the biggest opportunity that you

:55:51.:55:55.

can ever imagine. This campaign is not only about local issues, it is

:55:56.:55:59.

also about sending a message to the Tories that we are very disgruntled

:56:00.:56:03.

about the way our politics is at this moment in time. Open to change

:56:04.:56:10.

the tone of politics are the Greens. Party leaders visited Bristol to

:56:11.:56:14.

meet councillors and activists, they hope to win over voters with their

:56:15.:56:19.

overall philosophy. Politics perhaps there's something that they don't

:56:20.:56:22.

want to think about on day-to-day basis, but who really are open to

:56:23.:56:29.

voting for positive change on May the 4th. Those are the people that

:56:30.:56:32.

we are going to be reaching out to over the next few months. But other

:56:33.:56:37.

leaders are more divisive. Jeremy Corbyn was in on Friday campaigning

:56:38.:56:45.

with readers Metro mayor candidate, most in the audience were fans but

:56:46.:56:53.

not all. He is not deterred. We are putting our message out there, we

:56:54.:56:58.

have a large membership, we have a good campaigning strategy,

:56:59.:57:00.

enthusiastic candidates for the Metro mayor. Then why is it not

:57:01.:57:05.

working? It would be helpful of people would occasionally get around

:57:06.:57:08.

to discussing the policies that we faced in this country. He knows me

:57:09.:57:14.

the force will be crucial for his future. Another party that has had

:57:15.:57:18.

leadership troubles as Ukip. Members hope to break on last time 's

:57:19.:57:23.

breakthrough that they can seed recent months have been difficult.

:57:24.:57:28.

It has, make no bones about it. We are not the only party that has

:57:29.:57:32.

suffered internal problems and squabbling and fighting. That is a

:57:33.:57:38.

result of the growth, as we have got bigger, we have got more people

:57:39.:57:42.

involved, there are people on the paedophilia who have their own

:57:43.:57:45.

agendas and they are the shingles, and the same could be said about

:57:46.:58:00.

Labour, Conservative. -- there are people on the periphery who have

:58:01.:58:03.

their own agendas. With education, the police, social

:58:04.:58:10.

clear, in crisis, the Tories still expects to do quite well in the

:58:11.:58:14.

elections, how does that work which the economy is still performing

:58:15.:58:17.

well. Record numbers of people in work. We are still living with the

:58:18.:58:23.

legacy of the huge deficit of debt that we had and therefore we have

:58:24.:58:28.

got to keep bailing down on that so that we do eliminate the deficit so

:58:29.:58:31.

that our children don't keep saying this and being a huge out of

:58:32.:58:36.

interest. Kerry, can you see Labour meeting any gains in me? Certainly

:58:37.:58:44.

in Bristol we do not have local elections, we had ours last year,

:58:45.:58:47.

and the mayor was elected then, and we have just got the Metro mayor,

:58:48.:58:51.

it'll be more difficult for us, it is wider than just Bristol, that's

:58:52.:58:55.

what the Government has been doing to local councils, ?100 million

:58:56.:59:03.

worth of cats, that a state of the agenda and the impact on public

:59:04.:59:08.

services, the crisis in the NHS, schools funding, local people will

:59:09.:59:11.

reflect on that and blame the Government for the point. Why vote

:59:12.:59:21.

for a Labour mayor or council when they have to impose a Conservative

:59:22.:59:25.

lead austerity regime? It is partly about what priorities they would

:59:26.:59:30.

have if they do have to look for savings, look for reductions, then

:59:31.:59:33.

what do they regard as important and whose interests they have in mind,

:59:34.:59:38.

but also prepared to challenge the Government and say we will not

:59:39.:59:41.

accept this and asked for more money and asked for the powers to carry

:59:42.:59:45.

out what we need to do. Things like building social housing that is

:59:46.:59:49.

Iheanacho narrow agenda. Are you really do does not appear to be a

:59:50.:59:53.

May election in sight? A general election? We are definitely not good

:59:54.:59:59.

to get an early election in my view, but on the previous point,

:00:00.:00:02.

Conservative administrations, Gloucestershire County Council has

:00:03.:00:07.

been administered by a hung council, run by the Conservatives, it is more

:00:08.:00:12.

lean and modern than it was five years ago. We have to leave it

:00:13.:00:15.

there. Just time for it was through the rest of the week's news in 60

:00:16.:00:24.

seconds. South Gloucestershire council had to

:00:25.:00:28.

apologise this week after sending a letter to a dead woman saying she no

:00:29.:00:33.

longer qualified for council tax reduction.

:00:34.:00:34.

Christopher Davies said it was insensitive.

:00:35.:00:41.

If the reason for the reduction is death, do not print, do not send.

:00:42.:00:47.

The new director of GCHQ has been named. Jeremy Fleming will take over

:00:48.:00:51.

the top job at Cheltenham's spy agency this Easter.

:00:52.:00:54.

The Government's consultation on school funding came to an end this

:00:55.:00:58.

week. It is to make the amount given to city and country schools more

:00:59.:01:04.

equal. But some MPs told the Prime Minister does not go far enough.

:01:05.:01:09.

And more than a tonne of waste was dumped in Swindon this week by the

:01:10.:01:15.

local council. It highlighted 3000 cases of illegal rubbish left in the

:01:16.:01:18.

town every year. And, yes, they could clean it up

:01:19.:01:25.

afterwards. That was the beach. A big week to come. That is all from

:01:26.:01:29.

the West this week. My thanks to my guests. Both celebrating birthdays

:01:30.:01:36.

this week. Kerry, it is used today, happy birthday. You can follow us on

:01:37.:01:40.

Twitter for the latest political news and you can catch up with this

:01:41.:01:45.

show on the iPlayer. Now it is back to London and Andrew will be

:01:46.:01:46.

we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back

:01:47.:01:49.

to you. So yesterday the European Union

:01:50.:01:55.

celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city

:01:56.:02:12.

where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries

:02:13.:02:15.

were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though,

:02:16.:02:19.

the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May,

:02:20.:02:21.

who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50,

:02:22.:02:24.

formally starting The President of the European

:02:25.:02:26.

Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity

:02:27.:02:29.

at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing

:02:30.:02:35.

the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago

:02:36.:02:40.

by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not

:02:41.:02:48.

discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits,

:02:49.:02:51.

but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history

:02:52.:02:55.

they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that

:02:56.:03:15.

has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of

:03:16.:03:19.

the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to

:03:20.:03:24.

happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a

:03:25.:03:30.

new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've

:03:31.:03:33.

got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that

:03:34.:03:39.

has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that

:03:40.:03:45.

really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the

:03:46.:03:49.

interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal

:03:50.:03:52.

that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain

:03:53.:03:57.

crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position

:03:58.:04:01.

is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that

:04:02.:04:06.

he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he

:04:07.:04:09.

wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if

:04:10.:04:11.

Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to

:04:12.:04:32.

negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require

:04:33.:04:34.

the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against

:04:35.:04:37.

it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is

:04:38.:04:40.

better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position.

:04:41.:04:42.

Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their

:04:43.:04:45.

position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man

:04:46.:04:47.

heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that

:04:48.:04:49.

it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this

:04:50.:04:51.

would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to

:04:52.:04:56.

me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole

:04:57.:05:03.

of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people

:05:04.:05:06.

throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on

:05:07.:05:12.

something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can

:05:13.:05:16.

have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the

:05:17.:05:21.

most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared

:05:22.:05:24.

European values, and others not there... We were not there at the

:05:25.:05:31.

start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners

:05:32.:05:38.

while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look

:05:39.:05:42.

like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of

:05:43.:05:47.

renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values,

:05:48.:05:52.

for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that

:05:53.:05:56.

is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK

:05:57.:06:03.

Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that

:06:04.:06:07.

as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of

:06:08.:06:14.

areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have

:06:15.:06:19.

to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is

:06:20.:06:22.

an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that

:06:23.:06:25.

will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On

:06:26.:06:30.

Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement

:06:31.:06:33.

and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in

:06:34.:06:38.

France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a

:06:39.:06:42.

change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be

:06:43.:06:53.

there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might

:06:54.:06:57.

be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about

:06:58.:06:59.

how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being

:07:00.:07:01.

completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too

:07:02.:07:05.

acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look

:07:06.:07:09.

at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April,

:07:10.:07:13.

it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have

:07:14.:07:16.

taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen.

:07:17.:07:20.

President Hollande will be representing France, then the new

:07:21.:07:26.

French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if

:07:27.:07:31.

it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority,

:07:32.:07:35.

the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is

:07:36.:07:40.

summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian

:07:41.:07:43.

elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election,

:07:44.:07:49.

it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr

:07:50.:07:53.

Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition,

:07:54.:08:06.

that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and

:08:07.:08:09.

no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before

:08:10.:08:12.

this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that

:08:13.:08:14.

there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will

:08:15.:08:17.

be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what

:08:18.:08:21.

you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it

:08:22.:08:26.

means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the

:08:27.:08:29.

terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough

:08:30.:08:33.

for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament

:08:34.:08:37.

rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to

:08:38.:08:40.

bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How

:08:41.:08:46.

extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our

:08:47.:08:49.

country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a

:08:50.:08:52.

meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most

:08:53.:08:57.

important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by

:08:58.:09:01.

day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about,

:09:02.:09:04.

nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be

:09:05.:09:11.

resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is

:09:12.:09:15.

agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe.

:09:16.:09:20.

There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say

:09:21.:09:24.

following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if

:09:25.:09:28.

there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what

:09:29.:09:33.

counts. We have two years to blog about this!

:09:34.:09:38.

There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there!

:09:39.:09:48.

Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people

:09:49.:09:52.

there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU

:09:53.:09:56.

flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British

:09:57.:10:03.

one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to

:10:04.:10:11.

soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to

:10:12.:10:17.

limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a

:10:18.:10:20.

chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how

:10:21.:10:24.

dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in

:10:25.:10:28.

the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no

:10:29.:10:34.

sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to

:10:35.:10:37.

confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just

:10:38.:10:42.

being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it

:10:43.:10:47.

or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more

:10:48.:10:51.

credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is

:10:52.:10:56.

fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is

:10:57.:10:57.

the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way

:10:58.:11:19.

of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external

:11:20.:11:21.

trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the

:11:22.:11:24.

only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave

:11:25.:11:26.

without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a

:11:27.:11:28.

formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is

:11:29.:11:31.

gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and

:11:32.:11:34.

the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends

:11:35.:11:36.

what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning

:11:37.:11:44.

movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up

:11:45.:11:49.

yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat.

:11:50.:11:52.

It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the

:11:53.:11:57.

fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU

:11:58.:12:02.

and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite

:12:03.:12:05.

quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and

:12:06.:12:10.

momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May

:12:11.:12:14.

allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of

:12:15.:12:19.

generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are

:12:20.:12:23.

welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the

:12:24.:12:27.

negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well.

:12:28.:12:33.

I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but

:12:34.:12:36.

they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in

:12:37.:12:44.

the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have

:12:45.:12:49.

to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are

:12:50.:12:51.

British citizens would have responded. The British Government

:12:52.:12:55.

did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we

:12:56.:12:58.

cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered.

:12:59.:13:02.

Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have

:13:03.:13:06.

been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will

:13:07.:13:11.

see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the

:13:12.:13:15.

Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on

:13:16.:13:17.

BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time

:13:18.:13:20.

special live tomorrow night from Birmingham -

:13:21.:13:22.

with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis,

:13:23.:13:23.

Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

:13:24.:13:26.

and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week

:13:27.:13:28.

at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember -

:13:29.:13:34.

if it's Sunday, it's MUSIC: The Elements

:13:35.:13:37.

by Tom Lehrer # There's Attenborough, micro.bit,

:13:38.:14:44.

The Bottom Line and In Our Time # And Terrific Scientific

:14:45.:14:47.

and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind

:14:48.:14:51.

Andrew Neil and David Garmston discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall talks about Douglas Carswell about quitting the party. Panellists include Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Polly Toynbee from The Guardian and Toby Young from The Spectator.


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