26/03/2017 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall.

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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.


The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,


but do the security services have the resources and


We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.


As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of


Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power


Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job


I will be joined by two West Country and the party's


I will be joined by two West Country MPs who were in Westminster during


the And with me - as always -


the best and the brightest political panel in the business -


Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting


throughout the programme. First, it was the most


deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying


to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four


people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical


condition in hospital. His target was the very


heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,


and he came within metres of the Prime Minister


and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions


of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,


fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome


could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,


getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of


all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many


ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as


Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is


as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she


is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it


looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like


Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows


through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,


not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this


question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be


restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at


the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting


things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that


occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what


and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we


have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it


is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we


deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used


to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal


risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place


at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm


not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on


just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are


very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is


the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda


point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of


Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and


local people, international visitors, reacting much better than


they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an


appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city


riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a


better advertisement for the values that is attacking.


OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,


what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,


but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest


on the investigation. According to a police timeline,


that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive


through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into


Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,


before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes


to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released


a statement saying: "We would like to express our


gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last


moments and who were There was nothing more


you could have done, you did your best and we are just


grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive


may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,


despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has


such encrypted messaging There should be no place


for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that


organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others


like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists


to communicate with each other. It used to be that people


would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted


to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,


but in this situation we need to make sure


that our intelligence services have the ability to get


into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry


to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,


although she didn't rule out But for those caught up


in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that


will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague


by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,


Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the


aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively


supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot


of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,


this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been


supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands


of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist


community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,


illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as


well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan


Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European


link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is


an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is


not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course


in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he


launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've


seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the


attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the


fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat


dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle


to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a


secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a


trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last


couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately


in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency


services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and


Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not


completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being


stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted


attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and


that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted


attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them


get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting


through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly


something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look


at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from


what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really


appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the


edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target


list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of


radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to


monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the


blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a


sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work


and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities


have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this


morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe


Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is


difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.


What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases


we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,


encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in


the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a


real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a


stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully


intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged


via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an


inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through


appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law


enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back


that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We


know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the


Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes


to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for


her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I


would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more


consistent interception of communication in all parts of the


way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,


thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now


is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us


about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are


looked after by some very courageous, very professional police


officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as


you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very


carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that


need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by


professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...


Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,


particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as


security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there


are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be


made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get


some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was


always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start


to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed


armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,


because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,


the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not


the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security


arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I


don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed


commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards


removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of


Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in


particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide


how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard


sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of


staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details


of the operation but my understanding is that the number of


people available is what the police and the security authorities working


together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate


with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident


unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they


were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career


with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I


think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any


lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are


still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police


officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity


of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates


were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening


to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was


able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a


particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to


judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are


trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we


have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police


officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be


a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of


that. We know the attacker was stopped in


his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the


armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I


cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were


other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker


from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible


for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,


carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended


with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament


and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been


mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are


dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised


by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not


debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,


I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear


that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the


security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said


to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that


there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual


officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to


strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at


Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward


to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions


of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not


just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security


engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we


don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are


armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking


you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our


security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain


places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we


rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from


Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to


get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,


and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might


need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the


triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the


European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told


Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of


the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do


you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of


negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the


EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British


national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make


of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of


negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that


it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between


the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues


from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy


co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a


substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU


relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit


need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship


that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining


member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.


Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and


join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we


will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies


and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a


deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce


bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or


do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to


run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?


I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into


negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with


Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved


too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each


other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the


Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime


Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,


for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we


want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term


payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government


ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that


is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the


negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave


side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of


50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks


that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the


situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic


obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last


year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the


opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.


Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper


will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't


announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's


say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it


will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a


dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?


No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal


obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they


stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example


refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a


UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary


legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This


is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and


the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in


what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in


voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,


will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny


process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant


committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone


else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I


hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,


but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament


itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being


with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -


Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip


from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,


but yesterday announced that he was quitting


to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came


in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy


little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage


turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock


and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum


campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU


campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official


Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former


Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell


of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,


writing that, Announcing his resignation


on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately


wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that


that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving


Ukip." When Mr Carswell left


the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,


triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission


from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has


said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford


by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are


you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm


always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary


level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been


adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his


relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a


hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring


the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it


seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone


and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did


Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your


national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the


National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues


that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the


knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and


his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he


under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they


would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not


saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced


difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and


I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane


James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by


election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now


stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday


on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4


million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be


happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,


restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be


launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used


to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that


would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way


of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've


only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to


restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial


footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a


party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,


tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it


wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't


have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.


Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has


been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we


get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just


submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you


pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.


In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News


that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since


the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the


relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald


Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has


said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a


small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the


relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point


about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on


that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives


and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you


track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.


Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of


Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the


wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably


become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,


should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called


by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know


certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always


keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a


by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening


nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have


Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not


switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a


difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,


if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time


an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,


far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,


that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm


being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a


change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every


constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents


to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every


house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if


20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure


they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several


by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the


electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,


would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I


have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently


you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa


May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago


she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about


making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50


would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip


exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be


cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made


it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the


referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea


I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly


rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,


broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in


Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that


the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just


angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we


have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence


in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking


the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed


because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we


move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at


Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the


referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage


front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it


on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he


is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we


wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit


because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the


population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,


why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is


happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that


Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a


single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue


pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue


pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and


I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an


exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in


Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said


she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would


get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last


year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this


country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take


yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is


they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May


is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's


celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,


until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime


ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still


paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large


divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd


and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a


Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go


wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our


turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,


book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and


order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have


confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.


You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that


Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would


you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable


being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch


of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being


independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look


at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We


only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next


general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very


much. Hello and welcome to


the Sunday Politics here I hope you remembered


to put your clocks forward. As the PM prepares to trigger


Article 50 is Brexit the perfect But first, it's been


an extraordinary and With me are two MPs


who were in the Commons during the attack on Wednesday,


Labour's Kerry McCarthy and I guess on occasions like this


politics don't matter, do they? I had just arrived to vote


when clearly something happened and we were told to go


into the Commons chamber And there were a few


hundred MPs in there It was only later that I found out


quite what had happened. We were looking at social media


and getting phone calls but I think the people who were in the MPs'


offices or outside the building saw a lot more and obviously a very


frightening experience for them. Geoffrey, you were saying


you were frightened for your staff My office overlooks Bridge Street


and the first thing they knew was this huge bang which was the car


going into the wall. They saw the car having been


ploughed into the wall, The driver got out,


ran round the railings They saw him with two


knives stab the policeman. The policeman took three


steps back and collapsed. And within seconds as it turns out


Michael Fallon's security detail had So they literally


saw the whole thing. They also saw what didn't come


from the news for a long time, the carnage that the car caused


by driving the whole way over Westminster Bridge,


ploughing into pedestrians Certainly the lady that works for me


is still affected by it. It is a deeply shocking


thing to have happened. Has it changed you at all


being so close to it? It was a subdued mood


in Westminster on Thursday. Parliament sat as normal which I


think was the right thing to do. We had a minute's silence


and there was a statement from the Prime Minister with some


very moving tributes, particularly from James Cleverly,


Geoffrey's colleague, who had served with the police


officer Keith Palmer, in the Army. But we look back and it's


less than a year since And in the immediate aftermath


of that people said this is going to change the way we do


politics, we need to respect our politicians more,


we need a gentler dialogue, We went into public life to serve


the people of this country, to help our country be


a better place. Frankly, if we let the terrorists


interrupt what we do in our democracy, then to a degree


they have won. It is imperative for our


democracy that we carry on. In some ways it makes


you take your role more seriously because sometimes you can forget,


you turn up, it's your day job, even though you're in the Palace


of Westminster, the importance of your role doesn't


always strike you. Something like this, you think,


we do have an important role to play Sorry, Kerry, I've always


accepted a degree of risk. I always thought that something


like this might happen, and God forbid that it


never happens again. But if you are in a place


that is so much the focus of the country's activities


you are inevitably at risk. But of course the place


is like a fortress. Not all the police there are armed


but a lot of them are. Imagine that London became too


difficult to attack perhaps, landmarks like that,


and the terrorists moved out, perhaps targeted


the Cotswolds or Bristol How long would it take to get


an armed officer to the scene? We can't have armed


officers everywhere. It just wouldn't be practical


to have an armed officer in the marketplace in Cirencester,


even on a 12-hour basis, And in any case I think


the terrorists will always find somewhere where they can get a car


or a lorry and a crowd of people, where there isn't


necessarily an armed officer. Kerry, in most of the world


the police are armed. If there'd been an armed


police officer when Jo Cox It wouldn't have saved


her life, I think. And we don't want to live


in a country that's I think it is still important


that Parliament remains But you are saying if


Parliament was sealed off. I think it's quite important for our


democracy that it is somewhere that people can come and lobby their MPs


but clearly the security But, God forbid, but a man


with a gun or a knife, somewhere miles away from an armed


police officer, there was help within seconds at Westminster,


it could be 20 minutes, In a market town it's a job


enough to get a policeman there even once a week,


let alone have an armed We have been through all this


before with the IRA, the bombings, God forbid,


Birmingham and other cities. I'm just hopeful that this whole


thing won't now spread. Any thoughts from you about how


we could improve security? We have heard that the police have


instigated assessments My concern in Bristol


is for my staff because a lot of the time I will be in Parliament


where the security is much higher. So we've had much stronger


security put in there. I'm sure security will be


reviewed all the way round and there are more things


we could do. Theresa May will begin the process


of leaving the EU next week. She says it's going


to be an historic day. Swindon voted for Leave,


and has plenty to gain, or lose, depending on your point


of view, from Brexit. It has wealth and major


international employers alongside So on the eve of our departure


from Europe Martin Jones has been finding out if Swindon's enthusiasm


for Brexit is still strong. Wasdell Packaging, on the edge


of Swindon, puts pills in the packs If you've ever wondered how


the pills and the medicines that we all rely on every day get


to us in packs like these, well, They are put in a hopper there,


it gets processed along here, and then they get sorted


and packed by hand. And crucially they are then


exported all over the world. This product is off


to Romania, Estonia, Italy, Italy, Germany,


France. Like many global exporters


the owner supported Remain. You might think that leaving the EU


would be a bitter pill to swallow. Business-wise, if we take 2015-2016,


we turned over 22 million. So business for us


is very, very good. It's because the weak pound means


export sales have soared and they are doing so well they want


to expand, creating hundreds of new What will happen


to a workforce drawn The staff is not


coping very well to be We have 54 different nationalities


work within the group. I'm asked on a daily basis,


will we be sent home? As I tell all the staff,


not to worry, things are very But not everyone


shares his confidence. The local councillor


is a passionate Remainer who fears big firms


could scale back in Swindon causing


unemployment and fear. Swindon is a multicultural


town and we are very proud that we lived in racial


harmony for many years. And I'm deeply concerned about


the developments that are currently This is Park South in Swindon,


fertile ground for the Brexit campaigners which is


where I meet the man who was Swindon's Vote Leave


coordinator, appropriately The general consensus


though is that people who actually supported


Remain are saying we just That message of get on the third is


supported by most people I speak to whether Leave or Remain. It is a


long and drawn out process. It is either get on with it or don't


bother. I like to have this country back with its people again. It does


poke its nose into much, the common market. Even though you are a remain


are happy that she is getting on with it? Yes, the people have


decided to leave the European Union. She has to do that. That is the will


of the people. We are all believers know any sense? Yes. You have two


follow the majority. It is sometimes said the Brexit deal will involve


the most complex negotiations of all time. Perhaps a delivery from


Swindon will help with the late nights and the headaches.


Kerry, you were obviously they remain, have you no decided, let us


get on with it and put your position to one side? Most importantly, we


know that the Prime Minister has said she will trigger article 50


next week. My concern will be that we don't rush headlong into a hard


Brexit. There are still so many unanswered questions about what our


access to the single market would be. The rates of EU nationals, as we


saw in that film. From a Labour point of view, the food sector,


hospitality, farming, how are they going to survive? My concern is the


detail. There is not going to be a second referendum now. But I have so


many concerns that the Government is not prepared for this, has not got


it through, that it will have major implications. It is a combination of


trying to get the best deal we can but also to point out where the


Government is failing and to ring the alarm bell that we are heading


for disaster, which I think we are. Do you? Do you? No. Your


constituency voted narrowly in favour of Remain and you were a


Leaver. Our people reconciled to it? I do not think people are


reconciled. I do not think there will be a disaster around the


corner. Our country can become an open country trading around the


world but I agree we need to offer maximum reassurance to people like


those employees in the film, but that they are legally here, they


will be welcome to stay here. You would rather do that right now. I


have asked the Prime Minister a question in Parliament, that we need


to get on that, as soon as possible, to give them that reissues that they


are welcome here. You have met farmers this last week, what are


they saying? Virus generally, just generalising, they were generally in


favour of leaving. And they know having remorse? A little bit, yes.


They are beginning to wonder what is going to happen to them. I was


trying to give them what we shouldn't I could. The present


system will remain until 2020. Thereafter the Government will need


to decide on their subsidies. The EU are already talking this week about


a ?50 billion bill before they even start talking about that. In the


article 50 wording it makes it very clear that there is no legal


obligation to pay that money. If we do it it will be on a specific basis


for a specific item that we get in return. But we could perhaps be 50


billion in return for free trading for five years or something like


that? It is conceivable that it is more likely that we will pay


something and nothing like 50 billion for participating in a joint


research programme. The benefits are beginning to slip away? We will no


longer be paying a huge PEG. We will not get any of the benefits back. We


will not be paying that. A significant amount of money. A ?10


billion benefit. Barriers to trade. We may be me not, it depends on how


the negotiation pans out. We can be pessimistic. We should look forward


to this. It is going to happen. Are you looking forward to it? No, take


farming, I am on the select committee, and there is an enquiry


into labour shortages in food and farming. We have had people come to


us, and asparagus grower, saying the asparagus will rot in the guide


because there is no one to picket. Nine since Brexit has been bad, so


why should it change. Look at the value of the pound. In Swindon it


was proving beneficial but other people are finding it expensive but


from the Labour point of view if we do not have access to EU workers


that are prepared to work in food, that are prepared to work in food,


food processing, hospitality, the evidence we were given... Why should


we not have access to them? We will. If freedom of movement goes, this is


all part and parcel, when people voted to Leave they voted for


restrictions on immigration, if we do not have those restrictions on


immigration what people voted for? We will. It is one of the great


benefits of leaving, this country will be able to make its own


decisions on immigration, we will not lead to disconnect in favour of


Europeans, they can come in from all over the world. We have got two more


years of this. We believe that today. The local


election campaign of 2017 is up and running you will be pleased to know.


In five and a half weeks' time the polls will open for most of us in


the West to see who will take charge. Policies are planned and


manifestos printed. As the local effort worthwhile when many will be


more swayed by what is happening in national politics?


Leaflets are being printed, activists mobilise, canvassers sent


onto the streets. You can tell there is an election coming, but does all


this make much difference to how people will vote in May? Roger's


corridors of power have been conservative dominated for two


decades. The leader and her deputy are proud of their record but it is


little noticed by the electorate who are instead swayed by national


politics. It is always frustrating for local Government, we do not get


this in turn out as the central Government elections, and it


frustrates me that on the doorstep they will be talking about Brexit


and Theresa May, but you have to keep biting your message out. We


have got a good message and Wiltshire. One party unashamedly


focusing on local issues are the Liberal Democrats. In the office


they sought through leaflets for the Metro mere contest that they want to


shout about but's exit from Europe. We are up for a fight, we ought to


show this Brexit Government that we can win this election. It is giving


us the biggest opportunity that you us the biggest opportunity that you


can ever imagine. This campaign is not only about local issues, it is


also about sending a message to the Tories that we are very disgruntled


about the way our politics is at this moment in time. Open to change


the tone of politics are the Greens. Party leaders visited Bristol to


meet councillors and activists, they hope to win over voters with their


overall philosophy. Politics perhaps there's something that they don't


want to think about on day-to-day basis, but who really are open to


voting for positive change on May the 4th. Those are the people that


we are going to be reaching out to over the next few months. But other


leaders are more divisive. Jeremy Corbyn was in on Friday campaigning


with readers Metro mayor candidate, most in the audience were fans but


not all. He is not deterred. We are putting our message out there, we


have a large membership, we have a good campaigning strategy,


enthusiastic candidates for the Metro mayor. Then why is it not


working? It would be helpful of people would occasionally get around


to discussing the policies that we faced in this country. He knows me


the force will be crucial for his future. Another party that has had


leadership troubles as Ukip. Members hope to break on last time 's


breakthrough that they can seed recent months have been difficult.


It has, make no bones about it. We are not the only party that has


suffered internal problems and squabbling and fighting. That is a


result of the growth, as we have got bigger, we have got more people


involved, there are people on the paedophilia who have their own


agendas and they are the shingles, and the same could be said about


Labour, Conservative. -- there are people on the periphery who have


their own agendas. With education, the police, social


clear, in crisis, the Tories still expects to do quite well in the


elections, how does that work which the economy is still performing


well. Record numbers of people in work. We are still living with the


legacy of the huge deficit of debt that we had and therefore we have


got to keep bailing down on that so that we do eliminate the deficit so


that our children don't keep saying this and being a huge out of


interest. Kerry, can you see Labour meeting any gains in me? Certainly


in Bristol we do not have local elections, we had ours last year,


and the mayor was elected then, and we have just got the Metro mayor,


it'll be more difficult for us, it is wider than just Bristol, that's


what the Government has been doing to local councils, ?100 million


worth of cats, that a state of the agenda and the impact on public


services, the crisis in the NHS, schools funding, local people will


reflect on that and blame the Government for the point. Why vote


for a Labour mayor or council when they have to impose a Conservative


lead austerity regime? It is partly about what priorities they would


have if they do have to look for savings, look for reductions, then


what do they regard as important and whose interests they have in mind,


but also prepared to challenge the Government and say we will not


accept this and asked for more money and asked for the powers to carry


out what we need to do. Things like building social housing that is


Iheanacho narrow agenda. Are you really do does not appear to be a


May election in sight? A general election? We are definitely not good


to get an early election in my view, but on the previous point,


Conservative administrations, Gloucestershire County Council has


been administered by a hung council, run by the Conservatives, it is more


lean and modern than it was five years ago. We have to leave it


there. Just time for it was through the rest of the week's news in 60


seconds. South Gloucestershire council had to


apologise this week after sending a letter to a dead woman saying she no


longer qualified for council tax reduction.


Christopher Davies said it was insensitive.


If the reason for the reduction is death, do not print, do not send.


The new director of GCHQ has been named. Jeremy Fleming will take over


the top job at Cheltenham's spy agency this Easter.


The Government's consultation on school funding came to an end this


week. It is to make the amount given to city and country schools more


equal. But some MPs told the Prime Minister does not go far enough.


And more than a tonne of waste was dumped in Swindon this week by the


local council. It highlighted 3000 cases of illegal rubbish left in the


town every year. And, yes, they could clean it up


afterwards. That was the beach. A big week to come. That is all from


the West this week. My thanks to my guests. Both celebrating birthdays


this week. Kerry, it is used today, happy birthday. You can follow us on


Twitter for the latest political news and you can catch up with this


show on the iPlayer. Now it is back to London and Andrew will be


we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back


to you. So yesterday the European Union


celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city


where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries


were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though,


the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May,


who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50,


formally starting The President of the European


Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity


at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing


the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago


by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not


discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits,


but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history


they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that


has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of


the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to


happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a


new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've


got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that


has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that


really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the


interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal


that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain


crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position


is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that


he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he


wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if


Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to


negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require


the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against


it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is


better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position.


Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their


position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man


heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that


it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this


would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to


me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole


of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people


throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on


something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can


have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the


most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared


European values, and others not there... We were not there at the


start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners


while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look


like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of


renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values,


for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that


is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK


Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that


as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of


areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have


to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is


an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that


will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On


Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement


and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in


France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a


change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be


there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might


be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about


how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being


completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too


acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look


at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April,


it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have


taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen.


President Hollande will be representing France, then the new


French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if


it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority,


the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is


summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian


elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election,


it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr


Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition,


that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and


no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before


this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that


there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will


be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what


you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it


means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the


terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough


for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament


rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to


bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How


extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our


country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a


meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most


important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by


day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about,


nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be


resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is


agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe.


There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say


following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if


there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what


counts. We have two years to blog about this!


There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there!


Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people


there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU


flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British


one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to


soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to


limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a


chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how


dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in


the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no


sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to


confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just


being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it


or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more


credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is


fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is


the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way


of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external


trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the


only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave


without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a


formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is


gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and


the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends


what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning


movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up


yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat.


It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the


fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU


and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite


quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and


momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May


allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of


generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are


welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the


negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well.


I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but


they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in


the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have


to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are


British citizens would have responded. The British Government


did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we


cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered.


Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have


been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will


see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the


Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on


BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time


special live tomorrow night from Birmingham -


with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis,


Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage


and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week


at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember -


if it's Sunday, it's MUSIC: The Elements


by Tom Lehrer # There's Attenborough, micro.bit,


The Bottom Line and In Our Time # And Terrific Scientific


and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind


Andrew Neil and David Garmston discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall talks about Douglas Carswell about quitting the party. Panellists include Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Polly Toynbee from The Guardian and Toby Young from The Spectator.

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