26/03/2017 Sunday Politics West

It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

but do the security services have the resources and

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

I will be joined by two West Country and the party's

I will be joined by two West Country MPs who were in Westminster during

the And with me - as always -

the best and the brightest political panel in the business -

Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting

throughout the programme. First, it was the most

deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying

to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four

people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical

condition in hospital. His target was the very

heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,

and he came within metres of the Prime Minister

and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions

of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,

fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome

could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,

getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of

all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many

ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as

Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is

as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she

is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it

looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like

Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows

through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,

not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this

question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be

restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at

the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting

things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that

occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what

and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we

have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it

is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we

deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used

to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal

risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place

at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm

not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on

just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are

very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is

the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda

point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of

Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and

local people, international visitors, reacting much better than

they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an

appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city

riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a

better advertisement for the values that is attacking.

OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,

what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,

but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest

on the investigation. According to a police timeline,

that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive

through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into

Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,

before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes

to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released

a statement saying: "We would like to express our

gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last

moments and who were There was nothing more

you could have done, you did your best and we are just

grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive

may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,

despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has

such encrypted messaging There should be no place

for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that

organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others

like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists

to communicate with each other. It used to be that people

would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted

to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,

but in this situation we need to make sure

that our intelligence services have the ability to get

into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry

to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,

although she didn't rule out But for those caught up

in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that

will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague

by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,

Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the

aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively

supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot

of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,

this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been

supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands

of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist

community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,

illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as

well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan

Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European

link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is

an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is

not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course

in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he

launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've

seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the

attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the

fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat

dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle

to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a

secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a

trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last

couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately

in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency

services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and

Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not

completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being

stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted

attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and

that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted

attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them

get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting

through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly

something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look

at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from

what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really

appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the

edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target

list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of

radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to

monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the

blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a

sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work

and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities

have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this

morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe

Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is

difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.

What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases

we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,

encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in

the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a

real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a

stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully

intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged

via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an

inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through

appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law

enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back

that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We

know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the

Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes

to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for

her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I

would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more

consistent interception of communication in all parts of the

way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,

thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now

is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us

about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are

looked after by some very courageous, very professional police

officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as

you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very

carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that

need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by

professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...

Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,

particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as

security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there

are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be

made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get

some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was

always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start

to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed

armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,

because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,

the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not

the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security

arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I

don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed

commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards

removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of

Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in

particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide

how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard

sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of

staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details

of the operation but my understanding is that the number of

people available is what the police and the security authorities working

together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate

with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident

unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they

were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career

with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I

think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any

lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are

still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police

officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity

of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates

were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening

to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was

able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a

particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to

judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are

trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we

have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police

officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be

a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of

that. We know the attacker was stopped in

his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the

armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I

cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were

other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker

from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible

for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,

carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended

with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament

and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been

mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are

dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised

by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not

debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,

I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear

that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the

security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said

to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that

there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual

officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to

strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at

Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward

to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions

of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not

just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security

engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we

don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are

armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking

you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our

security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain

places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we

rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from

Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to

get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,

and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might

need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the

triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the

European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told

Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of

the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do

you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of

negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the

EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British

national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make

of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of

negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that

it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between

the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues

from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy

co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a

substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU

relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit

need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship

that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining

member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.

Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and

join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we

will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies

and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a

deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce

bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or

do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to

run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?

I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into

negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with

Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved

too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each

other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the

Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime

Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,

for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we

want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term

payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government

ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that

is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the

negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave

side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of

50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks

that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the

situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic

obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last

year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the

opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.

Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper

will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't

announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's

say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it

will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a

dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?

No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal

obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they

stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example

refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a

UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary

legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This

is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and

the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in

what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in

voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,

will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny

process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant

committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone

else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I

hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,

but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament

itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being

with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -

Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip

from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,

but yesterday announced that he was quitting

to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came

in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy

little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage

turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock

and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum

campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU

campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official

Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former

Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell

of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,

writing that, Announcing his resignation

on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately

wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that

that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving

Ukip." When Mr Carswell left

the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,

triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission

from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has

said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford

by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are

you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm

always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary

level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been

adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his

relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a

hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring

the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it

seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone

and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did

Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your

national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the

National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues

that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the

knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and

his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he

under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they

would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not

saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced

difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and

I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane

James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by

election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now

stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday

on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4

million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be

happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,

restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be

launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used

to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that

would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way

of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've

only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to

restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial

footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a

party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,

tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it

wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't

have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.

Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has

been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we

get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just

submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you

pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.

In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News

that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since

the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the

relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald

Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has

said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a

small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the

relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point

about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on

that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives

and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you

track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.

Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of

Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the

wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably

become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,

should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called

by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know

certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always

keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a

by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening

nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have

Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not

switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a

difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,

if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time

an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,

far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,

that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm

being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a

change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every

constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents

to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every

house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if

20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure

they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several

by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the

electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,

would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I

have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently

you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa

May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago

she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about

making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50

would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip

exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be

cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made

it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the

referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea

I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly

rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,

broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in

Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that

the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just

angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we

have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence

in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking

the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed

because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we

move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at

Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the

referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage

front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it

on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he

is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we

wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit

because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the

population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,

why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is

happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that

Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a

single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue

pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue

pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and

I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an

exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in

Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said

she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would

get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last

year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this

country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take

yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is

they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May

is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's

celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,

until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime

ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still

paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large

divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd

and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a

Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go

wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our

turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,

book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and

order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have

confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.

You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that

Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would

you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable

being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch

of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being

independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look

at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We

only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next

general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very

much. Hello and welcome to

the Sunday Politics here I hope you remembered

to put your clocks forward. As the PM prepares to trigger

Article 50 is Brexit the perfect But first, it's been

an extraordinary and With me are two MPs

who were in the Commons during the attack on Wednesday,

Labour's Kerry McCarthy and I guess on occasions like this

politics don't matter, do they? I had just arrived to vote

when clearly something happened and we were told to go

into the Commons chamber And there were a few

hundred MPs in there It was only later that I found out

quite what had happened. We were looking at social media

and getting phone calls but I think the people who were in the MPs'

offices or outside the building saw a lot more and obviously a very

frightening experience for them. Geoffrey, you were saying

you were frightened for your staff My office overlooks Bridge Street

and the first thing they knew was this huge bang which was the car

going into the wall. They saw the car having been

ploughed into the wall, The driver got out,

ran round the railings They saw him with two

knives stab the policeman. The policeman took three

steps back and collapsed. And within seconds as it turns out

Michael Fallon's security detail had So they literally

saw the whole thing. They also saw what didn't come

from the news for a long time, the carnage that the car caused

by driving the whole way over Westminster Bridge,

ploughing into pedestrians Certainly the lady that works for me

is still affected by it. It is a deeply shocking

thing to have happened. Has it changed you at all

being so close to it? It was a subdued mood

in Westminster on Thursday. Parliament sat as normal which I

think was the right thing to do. We had a minute's silence

and there was a statement from the Prime Minister with some

very moving tributes, particularly from James Cleverly,

Geoffrey's colleague, who had served with the police

officer Keith Palmer, in the Army. But we look back and it's

less than a year since And in the immediate aftermath

of that people said this is going to change the way we do

politics, we need to respect our politicians more,

we need a gentler dialogue, We went into public life to serve

the people of this country, to help our country be

a better place. Frankly, if we let the terrorists

interrupt what we do in our democracy, then to a degree

they have won. It is imperative for our

democracy that we carry on. In some ways it makes

you take your role more seriously because sometimes you can forget,

you turn up, it's your day job, even though you're in the Palace

of Westminster, the importance of your role doesn't

always strike you. Something like this, you think,

we do have an important role to play Sorry, Kerry, I've always

accepted a degree of risk. I always thought that something

like this might happen, and God forbid that it

never happens again. But if you are in a place

that is so much the focus of the country's activities

you are inevitably at risk. But of course the place

is like a fortress. Not all the police there are armed

but a lot of them are. Imagine that London became too

difficult to attack perhaps, landmarks like that,

and the terrorists moved out, perhaps targeted

the Cotswolds or Bristol How long would it take to get

an armed officer to the scene? We can't have armed

officers everywhere. It just wouldn't be practical

to have an armed officer in the marketplace in Cirencester,

even on a 12-hour basis, And in any case I think

the terrorists will always find somewhere where they can get a car

or a lorry and a crowd of people, where there isn't

necessarily an armed officer. Kerry, in most of the world

the police are armed. If there'd been an armed

police officer when Jo Cox It wouldn't have saved

her life, I think. And we don't want to live

in a country that's I think it is still important

that Parliament remains But you are saying if

Parliament was sealed off. I think it's quite important for our

democracy that it is somewhere that people can come and lobby their MPs

but clearly the security But, God forbid, but a man

with a gun or a knife, somewhere miles away from an armed

police officer, there was help within seconds at Westminster,

it could be 20 minutes, In a market town it's a job

enough to get a policeman there even once a week,

let alone have an armed We have been through all this

before with the IRA, the bombings, God forbid,

Birmingham and other cities. I'm just hopeful that this whole

thing won't now spread. Any thoughts from you about how

we could improve security? We have heard that the police have

instigated assessments My concern in Bristol

is for my staff because a lot of the time I will be in Parliament

where the security is much higher. So we've had much stronger

security put in there. I'm sure security will be

reviewed all the way round and there are more things

we could do. Theresa May will begin the process

of leaving the EU next week. She says it's going

to be an historic day. Swindon voted for Leave,

and has plenty to gain, or lose, depending on your point

of view, from Brexit. It has wealth and major

international employers alongside So on the eve of our departure

from Europe Martin Jones has been finding out if Swindon's enthusiasm

for Brexit is still strong. Wasdell Packaging, on the edge

of Swindon, puts pills in the packs If you've ever wondered how

the pills and the medicines that we all rely on every day get

to us in packs like these, well, They are put in a hopper there,

it gets processed along here, and then they get sorted

and packed by hand. And crucially they are then

exported all over the world. This product is off

to Romania, Estonia, Italy, Italy, Germany,

France. Like many global exporters

the owner supported Remain. You might think that leaving the EU

would be a bitter pill to swallow. Business-wise, if we take 2015-2016,

we turned over 22 million. So business for us

is very, very good. It's because the weak pound means

export sales have soared and they are doing so well they want

to expand, creating hundreds of new What will happen

to a workforce drawn The staff is not

coping very well to be We have 54 different nationalities

work within the group. I'm asked on a daily basis,

will we be sent home? As I tell all the staff,

not to worry, things are very But not everyone

shares his confidence. The local councillor

is a passionate Remainer who fears big firms

could scale back in Swindon causing

unemployment and fear. Swindon is a multicultural

town and we are very proud that we lived in racial

harmony for many years. And I'm deeply concerned about

the developments that are currently This is Park South in Swindon,

fertile ground for the Brexit campaigners which is

where I meet the man who was Swindon's Vote Leave

coordinator, appropriately The general consensus

though is that people who actually supported

Remain are saying we just That message of get on the third is

supported by most people I speak to whether Leave or Remain. It is a

long and drawn out process. It is either get on with it or don't

bother. I like to have this country back with its people again. It does

poke its nose into much, the common market. Even though you are a remain

are happy that she is getting on with it? Yes, the people have

decided to leave the European Union. She has to do that. That is the will

of the people. We are all believers know any sense? Yes. You have two

follow the majority. It is sometimes said the Brexit deal will involve

the most complex negotiations of all time. Perhaps a delivery from

Swindon will help with the late nights and the headaches.

Kerry, you were obviously they remain, have you no decided, let us

get on with it and put your position to one side? Most importantly, we

know that the Prime Minister has said she will trigger article 50

next week. My concern will be that we don't rush headlong into a hard

Brexit. There are still so many unanswered questions about what our

access to the single market would be. The rates of EU nationals, as we

saw in that film. From a Labour point of view, the food sector,

hospitality, farming, how are they going to survive? My concern is the

detail. There is not going to be a second referendum now. But I have so

many concerns that the Government is not prepared for this, has not got

it through, that it will have major implications. It is a combination of

trying to get the best deal we can but also to point out where the

Government is failing and to ring the alarm bell that we are heading

for disaster, which I think we are. Do you? Do you? No. Your

constituency voted narrowly in favour of Remain and you were a

Leaver. Our people reconciled to it? I do not think people are

reconciled. I do not think there will be a disaster around the

corner. Our country can become an open country trading around the

world but I agree we need to offer maximum reassurance to people like

those employees in the film, but that they are legally here, they

will be welcome to stay here. You would rather do that right now. I

have asked the Prime Minister a question in Parliament, that we need

to get on that, as soon as possible, to give them that reissues that they

are welcome here. You have met farmers this last week, what are

they saying? Virus generally, just generalising, they were generally in

favour of leaving. And they know having remorse? A little bit, yes.

They are beginning to wonder what is going to happen to them. I was

trying to give them what we shouldn't I could. The present

system will remain until 2020. Thereafter the Government will need

to decide on their subsidies. The EU are already talking this week about

a ?50 billion bill before they even start talking about that. In the

article 50 wording it makes it very clear that there is no legal

obligation to pay that money. If we do it it will be on a specific basis

for a specific item that we get in return. But we could perhaps be 50

billion in return for free trading for five years or something like

that? It is conceivable that it is more likely that we will pay

something and nothing like 50 billion for participating in a joint

research programme. The benefits are beginning to slip away? We will no

longer be paying a huge PEG. We will not get any of the benefits back. We

will not be paying that. A significant amount of money. A ?10

billion benefit. Barriers to trade. We may be me not, it depends on how

the negotiation pans out. We can be pessimistic. We should look forward

to this. It is going to happen. Are you looking forward to it? No, take

farming, I am on the select committee, and there is an enquiry

into labour shortages in food and farming. We have had people come to

us, and asparagus grower, saying the asparagus will rot in the guide

because there is no one to picket. Nine since Brexit has been bad, so

why should it change. Look at the value of the pound. In Swindon it

was proving beneficial but other people are finding it expensive but

from the Labour point of view if we do not have access to EU workers

that are prepared to work in food, that are prepared to work in food,

food processing, hospitality, the evidence we were given... Why should

we not have access to them? We will. If freedom of movement goes, this is

all part and parcel, when people voted to Leave they voted for

restrictions on immigration, if we do not have those restrictions on

immigration what people voted for? We will. It is one of the great

benefits of leaving, this country will be able to make its own

decisions on immigration, we will not lead to disconnect in favour of

Europeans, they can come in from all over the world. We have got two more

years of this. We believe that today. The local

election campaign of 2017 is up and running you will be pleased to know.

In five and a half weeks' time the polls will open for most of us in

the West to see who will take charge. Policies are planned and

manifestos printed. As the local effort worthwhile when many will be

more swayed by what is happening in national politics?

Leaflets are being printed, activists mobilise, canvassers sent

onto the streets. You can tell there is an election coming, but does all

this make much difference to how people will vote in May? Roger's

corridors of power have been conservative dominated for two

decades. The leader and her deputy are proud of their record but it is

little noticed by the electorate who are instead swayed by national

politics. It is always frustrating for local Government, we do not get

this in turn out as the central Government elections, and it

frustrates me that on the doorstep they will be talking about Brexit

and Theresa May, but you have to keep biting your message out. We

have got a good message and Wiltshire. One party unashamedly

focusing on local issues are the Liberal Democrats. In the office

they sought through leaflets for the Metro mere contest that they want to

shout about but's exit from Europe. We are up for a fight, we ought to

show this Brexit Government that we can win this election. It is giving

us the biggest opportunity that you us the biggest opportunity that you

can ever imagine. This campaign is not only about local issues, it is

also about sending a message to the Tories that we are very disgruntled

about the way our politics is at this moment in time. Open to change

the tone of politics are the Greens. Party leaders visited Bristol to

meet councillors and activists, they hope to win over voters with their

overall philosophy. Politics perhaps there's something that they don't

want to think about on day-to-day basis, but who really are open to

voting for positive change on May the 4th. Those are the people that

we are going to be reaching out to over the next few months. But other

leaders are more divisive. Jeremy Corbyn was in on Friday campaigning

with readers Metro mayor candidate, most in the audience were fans but

not all. He is not deterred. We are putting our message out there, we

have a large membership, we have a good campaigning strategy,

enthusiastic candidates for the Metro mayor. Then why is it not

working? It would be helpful of people would occasionally get around

to discussing the policies that we faced in this country. He knows me

the force will be crucial for his future. Another party that has had

leadership troubles as Ukip. Members hope to break on last time 's

breakthrough that they can seed recent months have been difficult.

It has, make no bones about it. We are not the only party that has

suffered internal problems and squabbling and fighting. That is a

result of the growth, as we have got bigger, we have got more people

involved, there are people on the paedophilia who have their own

agendas and they are the shingles, and the same could be said about

Labour, Conservative. -- there are people on the periphery who have

their own agendas. With education, the police, social

clear, in crisis, the Tories still expects to do quite well in the

elections, how does that work which the economy is still performing

well. Record numbers of people in work. We are still living with the

legacy of the huge deficit of debt that we had and therefore we have

got to keep bailing down on that so that we do eliminate the deficit so

that our children don't keep saying this and being a huge out of

interest. Kerry, can you see Labour meeting any gains in me? Certainly

in Bristol we do not have local elections, we had ours last year,

and the mayor was elected then, and we have just got the Metro mayor,

it'll be more difficult for us, it is wider than just Bristol, that's

what the Government has been doing to local councils, ?100 million

worth of cats, that a state of the agenda and the impact on public

services, the crisis in the NHS, schools funding, local people will

reflect on that and blame the Government for the point. Why vote

for a Labour mayor or council when they have to impose a Conservative

lead austerity regime? It is partly about what priorities they would

have if they do have to look for savings, look for reductions, then

what do they regard as important and whose interests they have in mind,

but also prepared to challenge the Government and say we will not

accept this and asked for more money and asked for the powers to carry

out what we need to do. Things like building social housing that is

Iheanacho narrow agenda. Are you really do does not appear to be a

May election in sight? A general election? We are definitely not good

to get an early election in my view, but on the previous point,

Conservative administrations, Gloucestershire County Council has

been administered by a hung council, run by the Conservatives, it is more

lean and modern than it was five years ago. We have to leave it

there. Just time for it was through the rest of the week's news in 60

seconds. South Gloucestershire council had to

apologise this week after sending a letter to a dead woman saying she no

longer qualified for council tax reduction.

Christopher Davies said it was insensitive.

If the reason for the reduction is death, do not print, do not send.

The new director of GCHQ has been named. Jeremy Fleming will take over

the top job at Cheltenham's spy agency this Easter.

The Government's consultation on school funding came to an end this

week. It is to make the amount given to city and country schools more

equal. But some MPs told the Prime Minister does not go far enough.

And more than a tonne of waste was dumped in Swindon this week by the

local council. It highlighted 3000 cases of illegal rubbish left in the

town every year. And, yes, they could clean it up

afterwards. That was the beach. A big week to come. That is all from

the West this week. My thanks to my guests. Both celebrating birthdays

this week. Kerry, it is used today, happy birthday. You can follow us on

Twitter for the latest political news and you can catch up with this

show on the iPlayer. Now it is back to London and Andrew will be

we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back

to you. So yesterday the European Union

celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city

where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries

were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though,

the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May,

who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50,

formally starting The President of the European

Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity

at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing

the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago

by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not

discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits,

but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history

they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that

has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of

the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to

happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a

new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've

got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that

has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that

really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the

interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal

that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain

crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position

is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that

he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he

wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if

Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to

negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require

the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against

it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is

better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position.

Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their

position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man

heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that

it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this

would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to

me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole

of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people

throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on

something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can

have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the

most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared

European values, and others not there... We were not there at the

start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners

while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look

like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of

renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values,

for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that

is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK

Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that

as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of

areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have

to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is

an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that

will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On

Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement

and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in

France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a

change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be

there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might

be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about

how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being

completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too

acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look

at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April,

it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have

taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen.

President Hollande will be representing France, then the new

French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if

it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority,

the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is

summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian

elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election,

it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr

Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition,

that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and

no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before

this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that

there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will

be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what

you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it

means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the

terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough

for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament

rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to

bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How

extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our

country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a

meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most

important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by

day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about,

nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be

resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is

agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe.

There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say

following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if

there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what

counts. We have two years to blog about this!

There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there!

Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people

there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU

flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British

one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to

soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to

limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a

chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how

dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in

the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no

sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to

confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just

being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it

or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more

credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is

fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is

the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way

of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external

trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the

only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave

without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a

formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is

gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and

the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends

what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning

movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up

yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat.

It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the

fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU

and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite

quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and

momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May

allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of

generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are

welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the

negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well.

I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but

they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in

the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have

to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are

British citizens would have responded. The British Government

did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we

cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered.

Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have

been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will

see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the

Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on

BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time

special live tomorrow night from Birmingham -

with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis,

Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week

at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember -

if it's Sunday, it's MUSIC: The Elements

by Tom Lehrer # There's Attenborough, micro.bit,

The Bottom Line and In Our Time # And Terrific Scientific

and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind