30/04/2017 Sunday Politics West


30/04/2017

Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Labour elections coordinator Ian Lavery MP and Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood AM.


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It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

Theresa May says she has no plans to increase tax levels,

:00:41.:00:42.

but refuses to repeat David Cameron's 2015 manifesto

:00:43.:00:46.

promise ruling out hikes in VAT, national insurance and income tax.

:00:47.:00:53.

The leaders of the EU's 27 member states unanimously

:00:54.:00:56.

agree their negotiating strategy for the upcoming Brexit talks, but

:00:57.:01:00.

And in the last of our series of interviews ahead of Thursday's

:01:01.:01:10.

local elections, I'll be talking to the leader of Plaid Cymru Leanne

:01:11.:01:17.

In the West: The new Metro Mayor - I'll be joined by all six candidates

:01:18.:01:20.

hoping to become West of England Mayor.

:01:21.:01:22.

They hit an all-time low after coalition government,

:01:23.:01:48.

but are the Lib Dems poised to bounce back,

:01:49.:01:49.

And with me to analyse the week's politics,

:01:50.:01:54.

Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards, Tom Newton-Dunn.

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They'll be tweeting using the hashtag #bbcsp.

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So when Theresa May was interviewed just over an hour ago

:01:58.:02:00.

on The Andrew Marr Show, the Prime Minister was asked

:02:01.:02:03.

to confirm that she would repeat David Cameron's 2015 election

:02:04.:02:05.

promise not to raise VAT, national insurance and income tax

:02:06.:02:07.

We have absolutely no plans to increase the level of tax,

:02:08.:02:12.

but I'm also very clear that I don't want to make specific proposals

:02:13.:02:15.

on taxes unless I'm absolutely sure that I can deliver on those.

:02:16.:02:17.

But it is, would be my intention as a Conservative Government

:02:18.:02:20.

and a Conservative Prime Minister, to reduce the taxes

:02:21.:02:22.

The Tories like to have a clear tax message in elections, are they

:02:23.:02:32.

getting into a bit of a mess? That method wasn't clear, but does it

:02:33.:02:35.

mean, saying they have no plans to increase the level of tax? We are

:02:36.:02:40.

clear there will not be a rise in VAT, a lot of commentators will get

:02:41.:02:45.

overexcited about that, but there was no great expectations there

:02:46.:02:50.

would be a rise in VAT. Tempting as it is, because even one percentage

:02:51.:02:55.

point on VAT rate is 4.5 billion for the exchequer so it is tempting but

:02:56.:02:59.

there has been no speculation that would happen. We can see that she

:03:00.:03:06.

clearly wants to reiterate the language about hard-working families

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but I don't think we are that much the wiser. Even if she does not put

:03:10.:03:15.

up rates, according to projections the overall tax burden, as a

:03:16.:03:19.

percentage of GDP, is rising, will rise in the years ahead. That is why

:03:20.:03:25.

it was an odd phrase, I know she is doing it to be evasive but to say

:03:26.:03:29.

they have no plans to raise the general level of taxation, they do

:03:30.:03:33.

have. We also know they have specific plans because it was in the

:03:34.:03:37.

last budget, they had a tax rise which they had to revise, National

:03:38.:03:44.

Insurance rises, so very wisely in my view they are keeping options

:03:45.:03:52.

open, the 2015 tax-and-spend debate was a fantasy world, totally

:03:53.:03:56.

unrelated to the demands that would follow. They now have the

:03:57.:04:01.

flexibility, one of the arguments you had heard last time was Philip

:04:02.:04:04.

Hammond saying to her, we have to break away from the 2015 manifesto

:04:05.:04:10.

commitment and we can only do it this way, that is one of the better

:04:11.:04:14.

arguments. The Tories like to talk about tax cuts in elections, whether

:04:15.:04:18.

they do it is another matter, but they are not being allowed to talk

:04:19.:04:25.

about tax cuts, they are now on the defensive over whether they will

:04:26.:04:30.

raise taxes. That is not a healthy position for the campaign to be in.

:04:31.:04:32.

If you look at the numbers, quite frankly, if you will not do this at

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this election with eight 20 point lead over Labour, then when will you

:04:39.:04:42.

take these tough decisions? Reading between the lines of what Theresa

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May has said all over different broadcasters this morning, income

:04:47.:04:49.

tax will go down for low-income families, such as the threshold rise

:04:50.:04:53.

that microbes that was already factored in. She has had to commit

:04:54.:05:00.

to it again. VAT will be fat, national insurance contributions

:05:01.:05:04.

will go up. Do you think they will go up? I think so, she had plenty of

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opportunity to rule it out and she didn't. There was a terrible mess

:05:10.:05:16.

with the budget, it is a good tax argument but not a good electoral

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argument that you are eroding the base so heavily with people moving

:05:20.:05:24.

into self-employment that as you raise national insurance

:05:25.:05:27.

contributions for everybody but the self-employed, it is something the

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Treasury will have to look at. The other triple lock on pensions, we

:05:31.:05:35.

don't know if they will keep to that either? If they are sensible they

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will find a form of words to give them flexibility in that area as

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well. I would say there is no question over that, that has gone.

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As Mrs May would say, you will have to wait for the manifesto. That is

:05:49.:05:51.

what all the party leaders tell me! Labour have spent the weekend

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pushing their messages Speaking at a camapign rally

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in London yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn promised a Labour

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government would fix what he called People are fed up, fed up with not

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being able to get somewhere to live, fed up waiting for hospital

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appointments, fed up with 0-hours contracts, fed up with low pay, fed

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up with debt, fed up with not being able to get on in their lives

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because we have a system that is rigged against so many.

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I've been joined from Newcastle by Labour's elections

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and campaigns co-ordinator, Ian Lavery.

:06:29.:06:29.

Good morning. To deal with this rigged economy, as Mr Corbyn calls

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it, the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has a 20 point plan for

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workers out today. When you add up everything he plans to do to help

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workers, how much will it cost? The full costings, one thing I need to

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say at the very beginning, the costings of any policy which we have

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already ruled out and any policy we will be ruling out in the next few

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days and weeks will be fully costed in the manifesto and in addition to

:07:04.:07:09.

the fact that it will be fully costed, we will see it in the

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manifesto how indeed it has been funded, so we are very clear,

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anything we have seen already, and there are some exciting policy

:07:19.:07:21.

releases and there will be more in the future, anything we are going to

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do will be fully costed and in the manifesto. You announced a 20 point

:07:26.:07:29.

plan but cannot tell me what the costs will be this morning so at the

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moment it is a menu without prices? It is not a menu without prices, it

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is a fantastic opportunity. This 20 point plan is something which will

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transform the lives of millions of millions of people in the

:07:44.:07:48.

workplace... But what is the cost? It will be welcomed by many people

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across the UK. The fact the costings have not been released, you will

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have to be patient, it will be released very clearly, it will

:07:58.:08:02.

identify that in the manifesto. Let me come down to one of the points,

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the end of the public sector pay freeze. Can you give us any idea how

:08:07.:08:12.

much that will cost? The end of the public sector pay freeze, so

:08:13.:08:15.

important to the future of the Labour Party, it is an massive

:08:16.:08:22.

policy decision. Let me say at this stage, Theresa May, the Prime

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Minister, this morning, on The Andrew Marr Show, did not have the

:08:28.:08:30.

common decency, courtesy all respect to condone the fact that nurses, the

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heroes of the NHS, have had a reduction of nearly 14% in their

:08:37.:08:42.

wages since 2010 and are using food banks to feed themselves! Does that

:08:43.:08:46.

not say everything that is wrong with today's society? So can you

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tell me what it will cost, which is what my question was? What I will

:08:53.:08:57.

say is everything the Labour Party pledges, everything that we come out

:08:58.:09:00.

with, what we will roll out between now and the 8th of June, will be

:09:01.:09:05.

fully costed, people will be very much aware of how much the costings

:09:06.:09:08.

will be, where the funding will come from, when the manifesto is

:09:09.:09:13.

published. What about doubling paternity leave, nu minimum wage,

:09:14.:09:18.

four new bank holidays, any idea what it will

:09:19.:09:29.

cost? These are exciting new proposals and of course today cost

:09:30.:09:33.

money but we are the sixth richest economy in the world. It is about

:09:34.:09:35.

redistribution of the wealth we create. We are seeing growth in the

:09:36.:09:38.

economy, it is how we utilise the finances in the best way we possibly

:09:39.:09:41.

can for a fairer society for the many and not the few. You just can't

:09:42.:09:47.

tell me how much it will cost? That is why I will repeat again that you

:09:48.:09:52.

need to be very patient. Do you know the cost yourself? You are the head

:09:53.:09:56.

of the campaign, do you know the cost of these things yourself? I am

:09:57.:10:00.

very much aware of how much the costings are likely to be, they have

:10:01.:10:04.

been identified, they will be published in the manifesto. You

:10:05.:10:10.

really do understand I would not be releasing today, live on your show,

:10:11.:10:14.

any costings or predictions with regards the manifesto. Why not? You

:10:15.:10:19.

have released the policy, why not the cost? Because there is a fine

:10:20.:10:25.

detail and we will identify it to the general public in the manifesto.

:10:26.:10:28.

We not only explain how much it will cost but we will explain where the

:10:29.:10:35.

funding comes from. Be patient. Will some of the costs be met by

:10:36.:10:40.

increasing taxes? I would think at this point in time there is not any

:10:41.:10:45.

indication to increase basic taxes and again the taxes and spending of

:10:46.:10:51.

the Labour Government with the proposals of the 20 point plan, the

:10:52.:10:56.

issues we have got, housing, the NHS, crime, education will all be

:10:57.:11:02.

identified with the costings in the publication. Can you tell us this

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morning, we'll tax for most people rise or not to finance this? We in

:11:08.:11:14.

the Labour Party are looking to a fair tax system which will be

:11:15.:11:20.

clearly identified in the manifesto. Mr McDonnell also wants to ban all

:11:21.:11:26.

0-hours contracts. Would that include those who actually like

:11:27.:11:32.

those contracts? There are nearly 1 million, depending on which figured

:11:33.:11:35.

you'd use, there are nearly 1 million people on zero-hours

:11:36.:11:39.

contract and the vast proportion of those want to be able to live a

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decent life, a secure life, they want to understand whether they will

:11:45.:11:50.

be at work the next day, they're included hours... I understand a lot

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of people don't like zero-hours contract and your proposal will

:11:55.:11:58.

address that, but there are those, I saw one survey where 65% of people

:11:59.:12:03.

on zero-hours contract like the flexibility it gives them. Will you

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force them off zero-hours contract or if they like them will they

:12:08.:12:11.

continue with them? We will discuss it with employee is to make sure

:12:12.:12:16.

individuals in the workplace have the right to negotiate hours in that

:12:17.:12:20.

workplace. Guaranteed hours is very, very important. Zero-hour contracts

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are an instrument in which employers abuse and exploit mainly young

:12:29.:12:32.

people, mainly female people in the workplace. We would be banning

:12:33.:12:38.

zero-hour contract. But there are those, students for example, who

:12:39.:12:42.

like them, would they be forced off zero-hour contracts in your

:12:43.:12:47.

proposal? Our proposal would be banning zero-hour contract and

:12:48.:12:51.

introducing contracts which have set hours in the workplace. You also say

:12:52.:12:56.

no company will be able to bid for a public contract unless the boss

:12:57.:13:00.

earns no more than 20 times the lowest paid, or the average wage,

:13:01.:13:05.

I'm not quite sure which. What would happen if British Aerospace bids to

:13:06.:13:08.

build more joint strike Fighters and the boss is paid more than 20 times?

:13:09.:13:14.

I understand the point you raise but we have an obscene situation in this

:13:15.:13:21.

country, Andrew, in which the bosses at the very top make an absolute

:13:22.:13:26.

fortune... But what would happen then? Who would build joint strike

:13:27.:13:33.

Fighters... The difference in wages between the top earners in the

:13:34.:13:37.

country and the people in the factories, in the workshops,

:13:38.:13:42.

producing the goods, is vast. I understand that is the reason you

:13:43.:13:47.

want a ratio. What I am saying is, what happens if the ratio is

:13:48.:13:51.

greater? Who gets the contract if not British Aerospace? Who else

:13:52.:13:57.

builds the planes? We are going to introduce a wage rate CEO of one to

:13:58.:14:04.

20. -- wage ratio. We want to close the gap between the people at the

:14:05.:14:07.

very top and people who produce the goods. Let me try one more Time, who

:14:08.:14:11.

would build the joint strike fighter? We would look at the issue

:14:12.:14:18.

as it came along but the policy is clear... Can you name a single

:14:19.:14:22.

defence contractor weather boss' salary is less than 20 times average

:14:23.:14:30.

earnings? We are not reducing, we have rolled that out as part of this

:14:31.:14:36.

fantastic plan to transform society to get rid of discrimination, to try

:14:37.:14:42.

and bring together our communities. We will introduce a pay ratio of one

:14:43.:14:47.

to 20. Fair enough, thank you very much.

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It's a month after the triggering of Article 50, and EU leaders -

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with the exception of Britain - met in Brussels this weekend

:14:54.:14:55.

to agree their opening negotiating stance, to get the divorce

:14:56.:14:58.

It is inside this psychedelic chamber where Britain's 'Grexit'

:14:59.:15:14.

future will be decided over the next two years, but there is a vast gulf

:15:15.:15:19.

in rhetoric coming from the UK and the EU. With parallel narratives

:15:20.:15:29.

emerging for both sides. There is broad agreement that an orderly

:15:30.:15:32.

withdrawal is in the interests of both sides. But Theresa May's

:15:33.:15:37.

position is that the terms of our future trade deal should be

:15:38.:15:40.

negotiated alongside the terms of our divorce. Meanwhile the EU says

:15:41.:15:44.

the terms of the UK's exit must be decided before any discussion on a

:15:45.:15:51.

future trade deal can begin. But don't forget that divorce

:15:52.:15:54.

settlement. Don't remind me. In Brussels, many think written should

:15:55.:16:00.

pay even more, while in the UK ministers said the divorce bill

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should be capped at 3 billion. After you. Thank you.

:16:04.:16:08.

For are you looking forward to it? Isn't that divorce bill a bit high?

:16:09.:16:19.

Isn't this about punishing Britain? We are very united, you all seem so

:16:20.:16:24.

surprised but it's a fact. How soon can we get a deal? We have to wait

:16:25.:16:32.

for the elections. It was the decision of Mrs May. It took over an

:16:33.:16:37.

hour for the leaders to make their entrances but once inside it's just

:16:38.:16:40.

a few minutes to agree the negotiating guidelines. They set out

:16:41.:16:46.

three main areas. The first phase of talks on the divorce settlement will

:16:47.:16:50.

deal with the existing financial commitments to the EU, the Northern

:16:51.:16:53.

Ireland border and the rights of EU citizens in the UK. They said a UK

:16:54.:16:57.

trade agreement can be discussed when the first phase of talks

:16:58.:17:02.

reaches significant progress. And that there must be unity in the

:17:03.:17:07.

negotiations, that individual EU members won't negotiate separately

:17:08.:17:13.

with the UK. They are quite good here at negotiating because they are

:17:14.:17:17.

used to it. They set a maximum and then they have to recede a little

:17:18.:17:21.

bit depending on what the other side is prepared to offer. I think there

:17:22.:17:27.

is room for manoeuvre in some issues, but I don't think some of

:17:28.:17:31.

the baseline things will change that much. For example I don't think the

:17:32.:17:37.

European Union will concede on the rights of citizens who are already

:17:38.:17:41.

in the UK. It will be very difficult for them to accept that they will

:17:42.:17:47.

not be any exit bill, and the question of Northern Ireland is very

:17:48.:17:51.

important as well, the hard order question. The baseline things are

:17:52.:17:54.

not going to move that much, then you have room for manoeuvring

:17:55.:17:59.

between. On security, defence and the fight against terrorism, the

:18:00.:18:03.

guidelines said the EU stands ready to work together. And after lunch,

:18:04.:18:08.

friendly signs from some EU leaders as they gave individual press

:18:09.:18:13.

conferences. Paul and said the talks should open doors to new

:18:14.:18:16.

opportunities and even German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who had

:18:17.:18:23.

earlier said some in Britain were deluded about Brexit, softened her

:18:24.:18:25.

tone saying there was no conspiracy against the UK. Unity was the

:18:26.:18:30.

buzzword at this summit and for once everybody seemed to be sticking to

:18:31.:18:35.

the script. That unity is not only amongst the 27 states, it's also

:18:36.:18:39.

among the institutions so many of the divisions we have seen in the

:18:40.:18:44.

past at European level do not exist. That is very important and it's not

:18:45.:18:48.

be unity that is directed somehow against the UK because I think we

:18:49.:18:53.

all want this to be an orderly process and part of that is that the

:18:54.:19:05.

EU side is unified. So although there are no surprises here, what

:19:06.:19:09.

took place in this room was a significant step towards the real

:19:10.:19:12.

Brexit negotiations which will begin soon after the general election in

:19:13.:19:18.

June, said to be the most complex the UK has faced in our lifetimes.

:19:19.:19:22.

Isabel, Steve and Tom are still with me.

:19:23.:19:27.

Isabel, doesn't the British media have to be a bit careful here? We

:19:28.:19:35.

would never take at face value anything a British politician tells

:19:36.:19:40.

us. We would question it, put it in context and wonder if they are

:19:41.:19:44.

bluffing, but we seem to take at face value anything a European

:19:45.:19:48.

politician says about these negotiations. You only have to look

:19:49.:19:52.

at the front page of the Sunday Times today to see that. They quoted

:19:53.:19:57.

at length Juncker, who didn't like the food at the reception and this

:19:58.:20:01.

and that, and I think the mood is very optimistic. The key thing is

:20:02.:20:06.

the EU trade Commissioner has said we will get a free trade deal and a

:20:07.:20:11.

lot of people seem to be wilfully ignoring that incredibly big

:20:12.:20:14.

concession. That is what will happen in their view. Everything that is

:20:15.:20:20.

said at the moment needs a slight rerun over. They are all in

:20:21.:20:25.

negotiating positions, plus we seem to be completely unaware that they

:20:26.:20:29.

all have their own domestic constituencies as well. Angela

:20:30.:20:35.

Merkel has an important election coming up in September,

:20:36.:20:37.

Euroscepticism is quite different from Britain of course, but there's

:20:38.:20:41.

a different kind of euro scepticism in Germany, she has got to deal with

:20:42.:20:46.

that. Of course she has, which is why you are right, nothing should be

:20:47.:20:50.

taken too seriously out of the mouths of British politicians or

:20:51.:20:56.

European politicians until October this year. We have got to wait for

:20:57.:21:00.

the French elections, then German elections, and if you look through

:21:01.:21:04.

this you can see a way forward. There's no trade talks until pay up,

:21:05.:21:10.

but what was actually written was no trade talks until we make

:21:11.:21:14.

significant progress on the money. You can define significant progress

:21:15.:21:18.

in a lot of ways but come December, fireworks over the summer, we all

:21:19.:21:23.

get very excited about it, in these chairs I'm sure, come December

:21:24.:21:27.

things will look a lot smoother. The German elections are at the end of

:21:28.:21:32.

September but I've seen reports in German press, depending how it goes

:21:33.:21:35.

it could take until Christmas before a new coalition government is put

:21:36.:21:41.

together. The Brussels long-standing negotiating tactic of nothing is

:21:42.:21:44.

agreed until everything is agreed, then I guess the British could say

:21:45.:21:50.

we agree a certain sum of money if that's what it takes but that

:21:51.:21:54.

depends on them, what good trade deal we get. If we don't get that,

:21:55.:22:00.

the sum of money is off the table. In that sense, the two are going

:22:01.:22:05.

parallel. However, I wouldn't entirely dismiss what people are

:22:06.:22:09.

saying in their pre-election periods to their own electorates because

:22:10.:22:15.

they have to some extent to deliver subsequently. Of course Angela

:22:16.:22:19.

Merkel is campaigning and electioneering, who wouldn't, she

:22:20.:22:23.

has a tough election to fight, but she is measured and thoughtful and

:22:24.:22:27.

when she says things like some of the British are delusional, that is

:22:28.:22:31.

unusually strong language for her. What was she referring to? I don't

:22:32.:22:38.

know, it wasn't specific. Have the cake and eat it perhaps the

:22:39.:22:42.

sequencing the British don't want. When they thought the British

:22:43.:22:45.

government was going to effectively demand membership of the single

:22:46.:22:49.

market, that's not going to happen now. Unless you sign up to the four

:22:50.:22:56.

pillars, that's the cake and eat it proposition, which they are right in

:22:57.:23:02.

saying Theresa May has made. But everybody has access, even with no

:23:03.:23:07.

deal you have access. The other side of it is I think there will be a

:23:08.:23:16.

united position from them. And so, as somebody pointed out in that

:23:17.:23:22.

report, they are experienced, tough negotiators, so I don't think it

:23:23.:23:30.

will be quite as easy as some think. I spoke to one of those who drew up

:23:31.:23:36.

Article 50 and they said to me they deliberately put this two year

:23:37.:23:39.

timetable in to make it impossible for anybody to think about leaving.

:23:40.:23:46.

This is really tight, this negotiation. Easy, it isn't.

:23:47.:23:49.

This coming Thursday, voters up and down the country

:23:50.:23:51.

will be going to the polls in this year's local elections.

:23:52.:23:54.

Over the past few weeks I've interviewed representatives

:23:55.:23:56.

of the Conservative Party, Labour, the Liberal Democrats,

:23:57.:23:58.

Today it's the turn of Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

:23:59.:24:01.

A little earlier I spoke Alex Salmond, who until 2014

:24:02.:24:04.

I started by asking him why Scots should vote SNP in local elections

:24:05.:24:08.

when the Scottish Government had just cut central Government funding

:24:09.:24:10.

It's actually a funding increase going into Scottish councils this

:24:11.:24:26.

year, and if you look at the funding position for example between

:24:27.:24:30.

Scottish councils and those in England, which are obviously

:24:31.:24:33.

directly related through the Barnett formula, the funding in Scotland has

:24:34.:24:37.

been incomparably better than that in England so there's a whole range

:24:38.:24:48.

of the -- of reasons... What's happening south of the border

:24:49.:24:51.

indicates the protection the Scottish Parliament has been able to

:24:52.:24:55.

put in that helps vital services in Scotland. But there hasn't been a

:24:56.:24:59.

funding increase, the block grant from Westminster to Edinburgh was

:25:00.:25:04.

increased by 1.5% in real terms but the grant to councils was cut by

:25:05.:25:11.

2.6%. It was going to be a cut of 330 million, the Greens got you to

:25:12.:25:16.

reduce it to 170 million but it is still a cut of 2.6%. Your own

:25:17.:25:26.

Aberdeenshire Council has had a cut to 391 million. You have cut the

:25:27.:25:31.

money to councils. Yes, but councils have available to them more

:25:32.:25:34.

resources this year, and as you say the budget increased that further

:25:35.:25:39.

which is why we put forward an excellent local government budget in

:25:40.:25:42.

Aberdeenshire and resisted a Tory attempts to knock ?3 million off...

:25:43.:25:48.

You asked me about Aberdeenshire, and Aberdeenshire has put forward a

:25:49.:25:53.

budget for investment expansion and resisted a Tory attempts to knock ?3

:25:54.:25:58.

million off the education budget, and I'm very grateful you have given

:25:59.:26:02.

me the opportunity to make that point. The Government in Edinburgh

:26:03.:26:07.

has cut the money to Aberdeenshire by ?11 million. It is a cut. But

:26:08.:26:14.

there is an investment budget in Aberdeenshire that has been made

:26:15.:26:17.

available by the ability to increase the council tax by 2.5% after a

:26:18.:26:23.

nine-year freeze in Scotland, and that has brought more resources into

:26:24.:26:27.

local government and that's why the butchered in Aberdeenshire has been

:26:28.:26:31.

an investment budget including protection of the education budget

:26:32.:26:35.

in the face of a Tory and liberal attempt to cut bit. You have to

:26:36.:26:40.

compare what is happening in Scotland and England, and there's no

:26:41.:26:42.

doubt Scottish local authorities have been much better funded than

:26:43.:26:49.

those in England over the last few years and that's been the ability of

:26:50.:26:51.

the Scottish Government to protect the services at local level. A good

:26:52.:26:57.

reason for voting SNP. If they have been so well funded, why after a

:26:58.:27:03.

decade of SNP rule do one in five Scottish pupils leave primary school

:27:04.:27:11.

functionally illiterate? You have got to take these things... Nicola

:27:12.:27:15.

Sturgeon has made it a top priority to address these challenges but

:27:16.:27:20.

let's take another statistic. 93% of Scottish kids are now emerging from

:27:21.:27:23.

school to positive destinations, that means to further education,

:27:24.:27:31.

apprenticeships or work. Why are one in five functionally illiterate? You

:27:32.:27:37.

argue one statistic, I'm arguing Scottish education is putting in

:27:38.:27:41.

some substantially good performances like the 93% going on to positive

:27:42.:27:46.

destinations. You can't have a failing education system if you have

:27:47.:27:51.

got that 93%, and incidentally a record low youth unemployment in

:27:52.:27:55.

Scotland without the second lowest unemployment rate in Europe. These

:27:56.:28:00.

pupils are being prepared by the Scottish education system. Let's

:28:01.:28:04.

take the figures in the round on education. It's so important. Under

:28:05.:28:09.

your watch, under your government, the Scottish schools in the most

:28:10.:28:14.

important global comparison have fallen from tenth to 19th in

:28:15.:28:25.

science, and 11 to 24th in maths, that is a record of decline and

:28:26.:28:32.

failure. That is by the OECD and first questions about that, but the

:28:33.:28:37.

OECD has also described Scotland is one of the best educated societies

:28:38.:28:42.

in the world. That was from the school system in previous years gone

:28:43.:28:47.

by. For those who are currently in Scottish schools, you have fallen

:28:48.:28:53.

from 11th to 24th in mathematics. The OECD was commenting on

:28:54.:28:56.

introduction of the new curriculum for excellence in which they have

:28:57.:29:00.

given a resounding thumbs up to it, and that's the same source as the

:29:01.:29:05.

rankings which you are comparing. Nicola Sturgeon has said there are

:29:06.:29:09.

challenges on Scottish education, particularly the access through the

:29:10.:29:12.

education system and the attainment gap but don't tell me it's failing

:29:13.:29:17.

when 55% of our pupils have gone on to higher education. That's one of

:29:18.:29:20.

the most impressive figures in the world. Why have you cut 4000

:29:21.:29:27.

teachers? The pupil numbers in Scotland have been falling over

:29:28.:29:31.

recent years as well and now of course we are increasing the number

:29:32.:29:35.

of people going through teachers training so we can make sure that

:29:36.:29:39.

number increases, but listen, the Scottish Government and Scottish

:29:40.:29:44.

Parliament, as you very well know, are subject to real terms spending

:29:45.:29:48.

cuts over the last few years and all public services have been under

:29:49.:29:52.

pressure. The main reason in terms of teacher numbers has been an

:29:53.:29:55.

attempt on the Scottish Government to protect the teacher pupil ratio,

:29:56.:30:00.

and that will now be enhanced by a further taker -- intake. You

:30:01.:30:08.

promised you would reduce primary class sizes to 18 and instead they

:30:09.:30:14.

are now 23.5 and rising. You broke that promise. You didn't mention

:30:15.:30:20.

where we started from. We have kept the teacher pupil ratio very solid

:30:21.:30:24.

in Scotland and that's been against a range of public expenditure cuts

:30:25.:30:28.

but the new intake of teachers into the new teacher training in Scotland

:30:29.:30:30.

I think will enhance the system. You have spent in the pasty in

:30:31.:30:41.

Hollywood 43 hours on Government time debating independence. How many

:30:42.:30:46.

hours have you debated education on Government time? I don't have that

:30:47.:30:51.

they get a hand... The answer is zero, you have spent zero-hours

:30:52.:30:54.

debating education on Government time. Isn't it time the SNP got back

:30:55.:31:00.

to concentrating on the day job? Andrew, as you very well know Nicola

:31:01.:31:05.

Sturgeon has identified a key priority, closing the attainment gap

:31:06.:31:09.

in Scottish education. That is exactly what she has done. Let me

:31:10.:31:14.

answer the question, it is difficult to be in a remote location, if you

:31:15.:31:19.

talk before I answer the question then the view was will not be able

:31:20.:31:25.

to listen. I let you answer that without saying a word. Is this

:31:26.:31:30.

general election about independence, as you say it is, or not about

:31:31.:31:34.

independence, as Mrs Sturgeon says it is? No, I have said exactly the

:31:35.:31:41.

same as Nicola Sturgeon on that. The issue what independence will be

:31:42.:31:44.

decided in a national referendum of the Scottish people. The mandate for

:31:45.:31:49.

that referendum was gained in last year's Scottish elections. What this

:31:50.:31:54.

election is about is backing the right of the Scottish parliament to

:31:55.:31:56.

exercise that mandate and also providing real opposition to this

:31:57.:31:59.

Tory Government and allowing the Scottish Parliament to reverse

:32:00.:32:04.

austerity and some of the public expenditure cutbacks you have been

:32:05.:32:09.

talking about, that is what this is about, backing our Scottish

:32:10.:32:09.

Parliament. Alex Salmond, speaking

:32:10.:32:11.

to me earlier. I'm now joined by the leader

:32:12.:32:13.

of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. You accuse the Government of wanting

:32:14.:32:20.

an extreme Brexit, those are your words. What is the difference

:32:21.:32:25.

between hard Brexit and extreme Brexit? My concern is the way in

:32:26.:32:28.

which we leave the European Union could be very damaging to Wales if,

:32:29.:32:33.

for example, there are tariffs introduced then that would have a

:32:34.:32:37.

real impact in terms of Welsh jobs, and I want to make sure that we have

:32:38.:32:43.

a Brexit that doesn't cause the damage to Wales that could be

:32:44.:32:47.

caused. But what is the difference between extreme and hard? Anything

:32:48.:32:53.

that puts Welsh jobs at risk is either extreme or hard and

:32:54.:32:56.

unacceptable to Plaid Cymru, and we will do what we can to protect those

:32:57.:33:00.

jobs. You want Wales to remain a member of the single market even if

:33:01.:33:05.

the UK isn't, which would mean Wales having to accept the free movement

:33:06.:33:09.

of people, still being under the jurisdiction of the European Court,

:33:10.:33:20.

and you also want to stay in the customs union which means you could

:33:21.:33:23.

not do your own free trade deals. What is the difference between that

:33:24.:33:26.

and being a member of the European Union? We would be like Norway,

:33:27.:33:28.

outside the European Union and inside the single market. The key

:33:29.:33:31.

question is the issue of jobs and the ability to continue to trade.

:33:32.:33:35.

Wales exports, we are the biggest exporter in the whole of the UK, so

:33:36.:33:39.

there are many jobs reliant upon those goods being able to be sold to

:33:40.:33:48.

the single market. Is it central to the UK? Out of the four countries

:33:49.:33:53.

that make up the UK... Proportionally, yes. If you remain

:33:54.:34:01.

in the single market, it is hard to see how Wales could stay in the

:34:02.:34:05.

single market if the UK -- when the rest of the UK was not, you cite

:34:06.:34:09.

Norway, that has free movement, it has to be said, it effectively have

:34:10.:34:14.

to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court, it is not in the

:34:15.:34:19.

customs union so it can do some of its own free trade deals, but the

:34:20.:34:27.

Welsh people voted to leave. We have to accept the principle of free

:34:28.:34:31.

movement if there is not going to be a hard border between the north and

:34:32.:34:35.

south of Ireland. There is going to be free movement within Ireland and

:34:36.:34:39.

therefore freedom of movement, as we said in the referendum campaign,

:34:40.:34:44.

would be very, very difficult to rule out. You lost that campaign, as

:34:45.:34:50.

you know, Wales voted to leave, 17 Council areas voted to leave, only

:34:51.:34:56.

five voted to remain. Doesn't it explain why your party is going

:34:57.:35:00.

nowhere? A majority in Wales voted to leave but you effectively want to

:35:01.:35:07.

support that and de facto remain in the EU? I don't accept that, we

:35:08.:35:11.

accepted the result but Plaid Cymru now is about defending Wales. There

:35:12.:35:16.

are so many risks facing our people from the jobs perspective, the

:35:17.:35:20.

privatisation perspective, the cuts perspective, and from the fact that

:35:21.:35:24.

the Tories would like to grab power was back from our National Assembly,

:35:25.:35:29.

so the key point... If you look at the Wales bill that went through

:35:30.:35:33.

recently, the list of reserved powers there suggests there are some

:35:34.:35:37.

powers currently within the Welsh Assembly jurisdiction that would be

:35:38.:35:43.

dragged back. Which power was will Westminster take back? They could

:35:44.:35:48.

take powers back over the NHS, for example. There is no indication they

:35:49.:35:55.

want to do that. The Tories have attacked the Welsh NHS. That is my

:35:56.:36:04.

point! Quite viciously. If they increase their mandate, I wouldn't

:36:05.:36:08.

put it past them to try to take power was back over the NHS and then

:36:09.:36:12.

of course we risk our NHS being privatised though this election is

:36:13.:36:17.

all about defending Wales, protecting Welsh people from further

:36:18.:36:20.

privatisation and cuts and a power grab from the Tories. Why is there

:36:21.:36:25.

never a breakthrough for your party, Plaid Cymru? Labour dominated in

:36:26.:36:29.

Wales for years, the Tories do quite well, Ukip had a surge for a while,

:36:30.:36:33.

it looks like the Tories will have another surge, never you, always the

:36:34.:36:38.

bridesmaid, never the bride. Wait until Thursday and I think you will

:36:39.:36:42.

see that in many parts of Wales we will increase our representation at

:36:43.:36:46.

a local council level. In the Rhondda, where I am assembly member,

:36:47.:36:52.

we are looking to increase our representation... You are only 13%

:36:53.:37:00.

in the polls will stop which is half of even the Tories in Wales! If you

:37:01.:37:04.

don't breakthrough in the selection, if the real problem is going

:37:05.:37:11.

nowhere, do you think you will pack it in? Robert Green not, I have a

:37:12.:37:16.

job to do, a vision of Wales which is about building up our nation and

:37:17.:37:21.

standing on our own two feet and my job is not done yet. Thank you for

:37:22.:37:24.

being with us as part of your job, we will see how it goes on Thursday.

:37:25.:37:28.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:29.:37:31.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:37:32.:37:33.

Hello and welcome to a live edition of Sunday Politics

:37:34.:37:47.

We'll be joined by the candidates for West of England Mayor.

:37:48.:37:54.

It's time to vote on Thursday - Portway and Saltford.

:37:55.:38:03.

Our little studio is a bit too snug to fit all six candidates,

:38:04.:38:06.

so we've got three in the first half of the show and three in the second.

:38:07.:38:10.

In alphabetical order, our first trio are the Conservative

:38:11.:38:13.

Tim Bowles, Ukip's Aaron Foot and Darren Hall

:38:14.:38:15.

We'll hear from them in a moment, but first, here's Martin Jones

:38:16.:38:20.

with a brief reminder of what's at stake.

:38:21.:38:28.

In five days' time, we'll have a new mayor.

:38:29.:38:31.

One of the most powerful politicians in the West.

:38:32.:38:34.

With money to spend - almost a billion pounds

:38:35.:38:37.

over the next 30 years, and hints there could be more.

:38:38.:38:43.

The power to say where homes should be built and where they shouldn't.

:38:44.:38:48.

The power to help us get around and ease the gridlock.

:38:49.:38:52.

Powers to influence the skills our people have.

:38:53.:38:55.

Powers to tax business and choose where the money is spent.

:38:56.:39:00.

But it's a controversial post involving working with other

:39:01.:39:03.

councils and convincing the public to take notice.

:39:04.:39:07.

The public make their choice on Thursday.

:39:08.:39:13.

Tim Bowles, if you win, what will be different

:39:14.:39:26.

The important thing about this role is that the government is giving the

:39:27.:39:38.

region the opportunity to make its region the opportunity to make its

:39:39.:39:43.

own decisions. The vital thing after four years is the region recognises

:39:44.:39:50.

someone is accountable and recognisable as the person

:39:51.:39:54.

formulating those ideas with council leaders. Hopefully, the region will

:39:55.:40:00.

recognise the positive move this is. For years to build up the job? Your

:40:01.:40:06.

question was what will be recognisable after four years. You

:40:07.:40:13.

will have somebody who is accountable and recognisable. We

:40:14.:40:19.

will have that from day one. But after four years? We will have made

:40:20.:40:24.

progress in providing a strategy that people will see, improving

:40:25.:40:28.

transport, tackling housing issues and in doing that we will develop

:40:29.:40:33.

alongside -- long-term strategy this deal is about. So your focus will be

:40:34.:40:38.

building up the job, being recognised and working on a

:40:39.:40:42.

strategy? It will be formulated with the leaders and other partners. One

:40:43.:40:51.

thing that will get done? We will start addressing pinch points in

:40:52.:40:56.

terms of transport. We can start that immediately. Longer term

:40:57.:41:01.

planning on new Road junctions and other transport infrastructure takes

:41:02.:41:05.

time so it's a case of showing how we can make immediate differences,

:41:06.:41:10.

getting new homes built, improving transport and taking the message to

:41:11.:41:13.

employers about the wealth of talent we have four skills.

:41:14.:41:25.

And the same question for you? I want to find out where people want

:41:26.:41:35.

their taxes spent. We have gridlock in Bath and Bristol that has to be

:41:36.:41:39.

solved and we can only solve it by working as a team with residents. If

:41:40.:41:44.

you win you will be in charge. They will come to you and say, what do we

:41:45.:41:52.

do? And you say, I'd better go and ask someone? No, as residents they

:41:53.:41:56.

know which areas are the pinch points and the reason behind it. How

:41:57.:42:02.

would you collect the information? It would be open source and software

:42:03.:42:08.

that would be freed to use. It will have to be built. But software is

:42:09.:42:12.

will build stuff specifically for will build stuff specifically for

:42:13.:42:17.

the West of England. So, you will have lots of liver --

:42:18.:42:26.

Little referenda done on computers? Asking where pinch ports are? Yes,

:42:27.:42:31.

people will be able to complain and make comments in easy through

:42:32.:42:37.

technology. At the moment they can e-mail you. More people will see

:42:38.:42:41.

these complaints and there will be a build-up before we can utilise them

:42:42.:42:48.

and do them quicker. It's about eradicating... What if you haven't

:42:49.:42:52.

got a computer? People can still write letters. It is not like we

:42:53.:42:58.

will say we now have e-democracy and that's it. Would you hold a

:42:59.:43:05.

referendum? It's not about having a vote every day. A virtual

:43:06.:43:10.

referendum? We will ask people what they think... Online? Yes. And you

:43:11.:43:25.

will take notice on that -- of that? Definitely. That's democracy. Darren

:43:26.:43:34.

Hall, what will change in four years? I have two principles I like

:43:35.:43:42.

to look at everything through. Those are, in a more equal society

:43:43.:43:46.

everyone does better. Secondly, we need to do a better job of balancing

:43:47.:43:53.

people, planet and profit. For example, we know the current digs

:43:54.:44:00.

system for housing is broken. Profit motives mainly not approving --

:44:01.:44:05.

getting profitable housing for people who need them. If you take

:44:06.:44:11.

the profit motivation out, how would you get the build? I am on the board

:44:12.:44:16.

of the Bristol Community land trust and we operate to build housing for

:44:17.:44:22.

people who needed. We build communities. How is it financed?

:44:23.:44:28.

Combination of the landowner and the City Council is offering land up to

:44:29.:44:33.

build houses. So you'd had to ask a landowner for land. Other likely to

:44:34.:44:42.

do that? The council has a process. I mean private landowners? We need

:44:43.:44:49.

to start with public sector land because we know there is pressure

:44:50.:44:53.

and that the public sector needs to build. And for the developer, what

:44:54.:44:59.

you do? Do you say build an estate but I don't want you to make profit?

:45:00.:45:06.

I think we can offer a presumption in favour of planning for those

:45:07.:45:09.

developers prepared to offer more affordable housing and more

:45:10.:45:15.

sustainable housing. But they will do it for a profit, won't they? This

:45:16.:45:21.

is why they sit on land because they want land prices to go up and all

:45:22.:45:27.

the rest of it. Unless they change systems completely and are prepared

:45:28.:45:30.

to do you a favour, how can you deliver on the housing promise?

:45:31.:45:36.

Rumack is about understanding that if we balanced people, planet and

:45:37.:45:40.

profit more effectively everyone benefits, including businesses.

:45:41.:45:45.

I want to ask about what you can do to deliver these and what

:45:46.:45:53.

experiences you've got. Tagged as why... Angie can look down the

:45:54.:45:59.

camera, sake of voters, choose me. The important thing is understanding

:46:00.:46:04.

what the job is about. Like any interview, you have two show your

:46:05.:46:11.

understanding what a job is about. Is he the sensible choice? I think

:46:12.:46:15.

Tim has got good local government choice but this job is about looking

:46:16.:46:21.

beyond South Gloucestershire. Do you think he's got the experience? I

:46:22.:46:26.

would explain about myself. The job is about working with today's

:46:27.:46:32.

council leaders. Somebody has to have an understanding as to how

:46:33.:46:37.

councils work and the only person who has that experience is me. It

:46:38.:46:44.

then involves working with business in terms of developing long-term

:46:45.:46:49.

economy, jobs and skills. I have a long and proven track record in

:46:50.:46:56.

business. What project have you delivered? I deliver ?2 million

:46:57.:47:04.

accounts in very loud exhibition and promotion events. OK, Aaron, a good

:47:05.:47:12.

solid job as a farmer. What experience have you got to drive

:47:13.:47:19.

forward ?1 billion budget? This role is about facilitating and listening

:47:20.:47:21.

and communicating with other leaders. As a farmer, and I've done

:47:22.:47:30.

this throughout my career, is about listening and reading. Now we have

:47:31.:47:34.

two produce something that we can actually tackle. Transport. What

:47:35.:47:41.

would you do? What have you done in the past that suggests you can do

:47:42.:47:47.

it? I run my own business. I will give up my business if I get the job

:47:48.:47:53.

and concentrate on this 110%. It's about listening to the people.

:47:54.:47:59.

Darren, what have you done? I lucky to have had a broad range of

:48:00.:48:05.

experience. I started out my career as a Royal Air Force engineering

:48:06.:48:08.

officer will stop my last role was with British -- Bristol City Council

:48:09.:48:15.

and I was proud to be on the team to get us British green city. And then

:48:16.:48:22.

I worked in crime and drugs prevention.

:48:23.:48:24.

I'm afraid our first trio are out of time.

:48:25.:48:25.

My thanks to Tim Bowles, Aaron Foot and Darren Hall.

:48:26.:48:28.

We'll meet the other candidates in a moment.

:48:29.:48:32.

Whoever becomes the West of England mayor will have the power

:48:33.:48:35.

and the money to turn big ideas into reality.

:48:36.:48:36.

But what big projects do the voters want to see?

:48:37.:48:39.

And can they provide any inspiration for the winner?

:48:40.:48:44.

We sent Pete Simson to do some blue sky thinking.

:48:45.:48:53.

Ours is a region renowned for transport innovation.

:48:54.:48:58.

From Brunel's railway to the trams in Bristol and Bath,

:48:59.:49:00.

These days, however, our reputation is for congestion.

:49:01.:49:10.

Shortly, we'll have a mayor with the power to ease

:49:11.:49:12.

the gridlock, but maybe he or she needs some suggestions.

:49:13.:49:18.

I think we should have some sort of system like they've got

:49:19.:49:24.

in New York where you'd jump on, pay a fee, jump off.

:49:25.:49:27.

Occasionally I'll get on the bus, but most of the time if we

:49:28.:49:32.

had to go anywhere special I get a taxi.

:49:33.:49:37.

If, like London, we had a subway I think that would be easier

:49:38.:49:44.

I appreciate that there is no easy solution to traffic

:49:45.:49:54.

congestion, but if we need to get more traffic off our roads, why

:49:55.:49:58.

can't we invest in an underground Metro system?

:49:59.:50:04.

After all, London's got one, as has Newcastle, so why not?

:50:05.:50:08.

Almost anything is possible if you throw enough money

:50:09.:50:17.

The challenges in Bristol and Bath are not insurmountable,

:50:18.:50:22.

Having said that, there are areas around the world where

:50:23.:50:27.

underground systems, tunnels, have been constructed beneath the sea,

:50:28.:50:33.

beneath rivers and in difficult ground conditions and even

:50:34.:50:35.

So if you throw enough money at a problem, it can

:50:36.:50:41.

generally overcome engineering problems.

:50:42.:50:44.

Bristol is spending over ?200 million on a new metrobus.

:50:45.:50:47.

The current system is rather like an overground/

:50:48.:50:53.

There are interchanges instead of tube stations so one

:50:54.:51:01.

hopes that it will solve Bristol's traffic problems.

:51:02.:51:05.

Not all of our big ideas get off the ground.

:51:06.:51:07.

Next to Temple Meads - the locals call this

:51:08.:51:10.

Connecting bits of scrubland because the Arena's not yet built.

:51:11.:51:18.

Whatever our new mayor decides they will or won't do,

:51:19.:51:20.

It cost ?11 million and no-one's ever set foot on it.

:51:21.:51:31.

I'm joined by Labour's Lesley Mansell, the Independent John Savage

:51:32.:51:34.

and Stephen Williams for the Liberal Democrats.

:51:35.:51:40.

Lesley Mansell, give us a big idea that you'd want to see happen

:51:41.:51:44.

built. There is a real issue and built. There is a real issue and

:51:45.:51:59.

it's the biggest issue or one of them for people in the region. There

:52:00.:52:05.

are already plans in place. The Labour mayor for Bristol and imposed

:52:06.:52:10.

for less than a year is already building council housing. But there

:52:11.:52:15.

needs to be mixed development. We have property is being built for

:52:16.:52:20.

profit but then they subsidise council housing. From the

:52:21.:52:25.

Conservatives is actually stopping those being built. Do you think

:52:26.:52:32.

developers would build houses and then reduced council houses? Not

:52:33.:52:36.

free but it's about having the budget to do that and the Metro air

:52:37.:52:40.

will have more money. Will you give it to the developer? In Bristol,

:52:41.:52:52.

there are some houses for profit and they subsidise council houses. We

:52:53.:52:57.

have 80,000 jobs being proposed across the West of England and

:52:58.:53:01.

people need somewhere to live. We need fair rents as well. John

:53:02.:53:08.

Savage, what would you do? Move very quickly to get a coalition about

:53:09.:53:12.

where we're going and move faster. No matter how much it upsets people,

:53:13.:53:18.

the local authorities in ability to work together has held us back for

:53:19.:53:23.

too long. So we will move quickly to try to get a better view and we will

:53:24.:53:28.

look a bit further ahead so that by 2050 we think we need 300,000

:53:29.:53:33.

houses. We can move quickly also to do something about traffic. To pick

:53:34.:53:39.

up one housing, where will it go and how will you pay for them? They will

:53:40.:53:45.

go hopefully initially on Brownfield land but we will have to take some

:53:46.:53:49.

grass, that's for certain. If you look at the requirement for housing

:53:50.:53:55.

and infrastructure it is perfectly possible to do deals with developers

:53:56.:53:58.

and shareholders to build a product that gives profit, which is OK, and

:53:59.:54:04.

a product that is satisfactory to people. I do think they would accept

:54:05.:54:10.

that deal, making less profit because we just need you to do it?

:54:11.:54:15.

It's about understanding what needs to be done and reasonable profit.

:54:16.:54:20.

The place would collapse completely of said nobody can make a profit.

:54:21.:54:26.

Developers know they have to change their approach and they are looking

:54:27.:54:33.

for leadership. Have you a pledge from a developer? Certainly one. Can

:54:34.:54:40.

you name them? No. This is why struggling in the public sector for

:54:41.:54:46.

services because people are not... You will not have any power on that.

:54:47.:54:51.

No, but I would be prepared to lobby the government on that. Stephen

:54:52.:54:57.

Willis. You had to ground yourself in political reality rather than

:54:58.:55:02.

fantasy politics. The first thing people will notice that the end of a

:55:03.:55:06.

four-year term if I am the Metro Mayor is that there will be a

:55:07.:55:10.

transport revolution. We will have seamless, cashless payments on buses

:55:11.:55:18.

to speed it up and we will improve the quality in Bristol and Bath. For

:55:19.:55:23.

new railway stations will have been opened and I have discussed that

:55:24.:55:27.

with Network Rail. Is funding sorted out? And now we will have a

:55:28.:55:36.

contactless card, or what? People can use their own debit card and you

:55:37.:55:44.

can do that with a drink. And you can fix that, can you? Absolutely.

:55:45.:55:51.

The regional mayor will have us franchising powers and I have made

:55:52.:55:54.

it clear that it would be the expectation. Transport is the area

:55:55.:55:59.

where I would to be judged on in four years.

:56:00.:56:01.

Lesley Mansell, you've suggested putting the M32 underground.

:56:02.:56:10.

Is that right? Congestion is costing ?350 million a year. If people are

:56:11.:56:22.

going to get across the West of England to deliver services and

:56:23.:56:26.

industry we need, we have to be able to move around. We need to do

:56:27.:56:32.

different thinking. It may be about getting people out of cars and onto

:56:33.:56:38.

buses. We need to improve public transport and the infrastructure

:56:39.:56:42.

which includes the potholes. We have started to look at different ideas

:56:43.:56:47.

like putting the M32 Underground. How would it help congestion? If I

:56:48.:56:57.

could finish. We start to look at something different. There is a

:56:58.:57:03.

four-year term to start doing that. But how would putting it Underground

:57:04.:57:08.

to help ease congestion? It would also provide jobs for the

:57:09.:57:13.

construction industry. Construction engineers can do amazing

:57:14.:57:18.

constructions now. Nobody said the Channel Tunnel would happen but it

:57:19.:57:22.

has. Do you think it is realistic with perhaps a tube? It's something

:57:23.:57:27.

to look at. Long-term it's something we could look at. We need different

:57:28.:57:35.

thinking. John Savage, do you accept she is onto something? No, I don't.

:57:36.:57:45.

The business of nearly a business -- nearly ?1 billion is a fabrication.

:57:46.:57:49.

The existing budget is already being spent anyway so we have to be

:57:50.:57:54.

realistic. This is a small crumb being handed down that we had to

:57:55.:58:01.

make work. Isn't that a counsel of despair? You have to be realistic.

:58:02.:58:08.

Are you saying Leslie isn't being realistic? Building an underground

:58:09.:58:12.

railway system against the odds of the geography and that in the M32

:58:13.:58:19.

Underground, how does that is the transport problem? Wouldn't it be

:58:20.:58:22.

marvellous if we had a tube system going to the airport taking

:58:23.:58:27.

transport of the road? If I want to get to the airport I can either

:58:28.:58:33.

travel across the valley will get the bus. It is not realistic. Tubes

:58:34.:58:41.

and tunnels and all the rest of it is big trouble but you're talking

:58:42.:58:46.

about a system with a card and contactless. Is that inspirational?

:58:47.:58:50.

There's a difference between talking began talking nonsense. The only

:58:51.:58:55.

hole Leslie has died is for herself and the Labour Party in this

:58:56.:58:59.

campaign. You had to deliver credible things and getting buses

:59:00.:59:03.

moving faster with cashless payments and dealing with fuel emissions, and

:59:04.:59:14.

getting people off the road and onto public transport is what people are

:59:15.:59:19.

looking for. What would you do to get people out of their cars? And is

:59:20.:59:25.

that necessary? It is necessarily because a quality is really bad. How

:59:26.:59:34.

do you do it? You have alternatives and you... We worked on it in the

:59:35.:59:40.

chamber years ago. People will accept it but nobody would get out

:59:41.:59:45.

of their cars if there isn't something that works as an

:59:46.:59:49.

alternative. What will be the stick to say, you are not driving your car

:59:50.:59:56.

's? Again, we have to improve public transport. What is the stick? And we

:59:57.:00:04.

need to look at flexible working to allow people to work some days of

:00:05.:00:13.

the week. And the stick? During the week, it's much more difficult. We

:00:14.:00:19.

need to start offering alternatives. It is all right Stephen Williams

:00:20.:00:24.

shaking his head saying is fantasy but what did he do as a government

:00:25.:00:30.

minister. He was behind cuts... We had to leave it.

:00:31.:00:33.

we will take the mandate that we want. To all three of you, thank

:00:34.:00:40.

you. Andrew, back to you. So, how will Thursday's local

:00:41.:00:52.

election results affect Who's winning the

:00:53.:00:54.

election ground war? And as he celebrates 100

:00:55.:00:57.

days in the White House, We have the local elections, Metro

:00:58.:01:14.

elections in Liverpool, greater Birmingham, West Midlands, how will

:01:15.:01:19.

they play into the general election? Significantly, it is very unusual.

:01:20.:01:22.

People keep comparing this with the election in 83, not! Margaret

:01:23.:01:27.

Thatcher was nervous and to wait until after the local elections to

:01:28.:01:31.

call the election to see the result. We are getting these result in the

:01:32.:01:35.

middle of an election campaign so it will be important, whoever does

:01:36.:01:41.

badly will suffer a dent in confidence in terms of how they

:01:42.:01:44.

approach the election and we are also going to have mayoral figures

:01:45.:01:49.

as a reminder of another big difference with the 80s that however

:01:50.:01:54.

big, say, the Conservatives win in Westminster, there are now sectors

:01:55.:01:58.

of power in other parts of the United Kingdom which were not there

:01:59.:02:01.

in the 80s. One of the reasons niches that are rated in 83 was

:02:02.:02:06.

memories were still alive in political circles of 1970, Wilson

:02:07.:02:11.

saw the local election results and thought, I can win, he was told he

:02:12.:02:16.

would win by the Economist magazine, who had done the analysis, and of

:02:17.:02:20.

course he lost, so that is why she waited, Mrs May does not need to

:02:21.:02:28.

wait for that at all now, and on the Metro elections, the one she will be

:02:29.:02:31.

looking at is the West Midlands, that is the one that is a

:02:32.:02:35.

competition. I think she can really lose on Thursday in the local

:02:36.:02:38.

elections, governing parties are supposed to take effect again,

:02:39.:02:43.

losing lots of council seats. She is projected to put on 100 or so seats,

:02:44.:02:49.

Labour projected to lose around 200, the first time the main opposition

:02:50.:02:53.

party has shed seats since something like 83 so clearly the local

:02:54.:02:56.

elections give Mrs May great momentum going into the general

:02:57.:03:00.

election campaign but there is a downside in that, which is what we

:03:01.:03:03.

have already heard fighting about this morning, if it looks like it is

:03:04.:03:09.

going too well for the Tories, it says to voters, why bother turning

:03:10.:03:13.

up? Sushi comes up with totally unbelievable sound bites this

:03:14.:03:16.

morning that this is the most important general election in her

:03:17.:03:22.

lifetime. Really?! For her it is! It always is until the next one! I

:03:23.:03:29.

wonder if voter turnout is a problem? Tory voters are more likely

:03:30.:03:34.

to vote than Labour voters. If there is a sense that it is all over bar

:03:35.:03:39.

the shouting, the overall turnout will be low that Tory voters are

:03:40.:03:43.

still likely to turn out more than Labour voters so she would still win

:03:44.:03:48.

some. I don't think she needs to be too worried, I think there will be a

:03:49.:03:52.

significantly low turnout, even I am finding it hard to be that excited

:03:53.:03:59.

about this general election. Really, the policies, we have spent a lot of

:04:00.:04:03.

time talking about them today and we have to examine them, but all this

:04:04.:04:08.

is about is, do you want Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn in Number Ten?

:04:09.:04:12.

Those are the only question is, apart from possibly how strong do

:04:13.:04:15.

you feel about Brexit, that will be on the voters' minds. You may say

:04:16.:04:21.

that but I will not be put off from going through a list of policies

:04:22.:04:25.

that we have already had in the last 24 hours. On the Conservatives, more

:04:26.:04:32.

powers to stop company bosses under pensions, of course Philip Green was

:04:33.:04:39.

in mind there. Labour has come up with quite a few policies, actually,

:04:40.:04:44.

give all work of equal rights, whether part-time or full-time,

:04:45.:04:53.

temporary or permanent. Ukip, scrap VAT or takeaway -- on takeaway food

:04:54.:04:58.

and end the BBC licence fee. The Liberal Democrats have come out

:04:59.:05:04.

posed to the runway at Heathrow. I thought I knew that already? Will

:05:05.:05:11.

any of these policies make a difference? They are all nice handy

:05:12.:05:17.

things that people quite liked but probably not, is the answer. They

:05:18.:05:21.

are an awful way away from polling day now for people to remember and

:05:22.:05:25.

latch onto. I don't think you make your mind up on small issues like

:05:26.:05:31.

Heathrow, unless you live in Richmond-upon-Thames, maybe, but the

:05:32.:05:34.

problem Labour have got with unfailing a lot of these retail type

:05:35.:05:38.

policies which, in themselves, are very popular, is no one will listen

:05:39.:05:43.

to them until they get over the leadership credibility issue. Jeremy

:05:44.:05:47.

Corbyn could the world on a stick, but if no one believes he can

:05:48.:05:50.

deliver it then he will not be listened to and he has not done much

:05:51.:05:53.

apart from a speech yesterday in which is claim to fame was getting

:05:54.:05:57.

arrested, I don't see how that would work for him getting to Number Ten.

:05:58.:06:03.

They are not making progress on it. Labour has rolled out a number of

:06:04.:06:09.

policies which, taken individually, would have certain traction in

:06:10.:06:14.

normal times, quite interesting ideas, this sense of unfairness, a

:06:15.:06:17.

feeling that ordinary workers have not done well out of the recovery,

:06:18.:06:23.

those who caused the crash have, 20 points, I went through some of them

:06:24.:06:26.

earlier, putting aside they are not costed, we are assured they will be.

:06:27.:06:31.

The problem I suggest is not the costing but the cut through? Every

:06:32.:06:37.

election has a context which is determined by opinion polls, however

:06:38.:06:41.

sceptical we are these days, and if one party is way ahead it is

:06:42.:06:44.

difficult for the other party to appear relevant, because if people

:06:45.:06:50.

assume they are not going to win, even some of its own MPs are saying,

:06:51.:06:54.

we are not going to win this, so you can vote for us, it is very hard to

:06:55.:07:01.

get attention and relevance. Where I think all the parties are bad with

:07:02.:07:05.

their current leaders is framing arguments, so those policies you

:07:06.:07:11.

have highlighted makes sense. The best leaders are brilliant framers

:07:12.:07:15.

of an argument and neither Theresa Maynor Jeremy Corbyn R. They have

:07:16.:07:21.

been campaigning, their manifestos are not out yet, both sides have

:07:22.:07:25.

been telling us we have to wait for costings, but it has not stopped

:07:26.:07:29.

them campaigning. Let's remind you of where they have been and what

:07:30.:07:34.

they have been doing so far. Let's start with Jeremy Corbyn, his

:07:35.:07:39.

first official visit was in the ultra-marginal Conservative seat of

:07:40.:07:43.

Croydon Central where the MP Gavin Barwell has a lead of just 165. That

:07:44.:07:48.

is not the only Conservative seat he has visited, along the way he popped

:07:49.:07:52.

in on Bristol North West, a Conservative majority of nearly

:07:53.:07:59.

5000. The Tory seat of Cardiff North, a lead of just over 2000,

:08:00.:08:06.

Warrington South, just over 2700, and Crewe and Nantwich, Tory

:08:07.:08:11.

majority of three and a half thousand. Yesterday he visited

:08:12.:08:17.

Bethnal greed and Bob, a Labour lead of 20 4000. Theresa May kicked off

:08:18.:08:22.

her campaign in Bolton, Labour majority of over 4000. On her way

:08:23.:08:27.

round the UK she had a comfy stop in her own maidenhead seat, where she

:08:28.:08:31.

is defending a majority of nearly 30,000, before travelling to other

:08:32.:08:35.

Labour marginals including Dudley North, a Labour lead of 4000.

:08:36.:08:42.

Bridgend, a lead of just under 2004 Labour, before becoming ambitious

:08:43.:08:43.

and visiting shadow minister Richard Bergen's Leeds East seat, which he

:08:44.:09:00.

won by over 12,500 votes. Yesterday she went north of the border to

:09:01.:09:02.

Aberdeenshire, where amongst other places she visited the SNP seat of

:09:03.:09:04.

West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, where the Tories would have to gain

:09:05.:09:05.

over 7000 votes to unseat the NP. What do you make of it all so far?

:09:06.:09:13.

It is remarkable she is doing these visits in Scotland. Past but even

:09:14.:09:17.

five years and the idea of a Tory Prime Minister going round Scotland

:09:18.:09:20.

would be utterly counter-productive, and actually they are ambitious for

:09:21.:09:25.

Scotland now under with Davidson, a prospect of multiple seats, and that

:09:26.:09:29.

would be a real genuine shift in Scottish politics, the likes of

:09:30.:09:32.

which we have not seen for 15 or 20 years. If she gets that, that helps

:09:33.:09:42.

towards 100 seats, because if she wins ten in Scotland, it is

:09:43.:09:47.

effectively 20, the SNP lose ten, she gains ten, she wants to do that

:09:48.:09:51.

in the Midlands with Labour, and the North. To get the 100 majority,

:09:52.:09:57.

other than Scotland, she has to win Labour seats, that is all that is

:09:58.:10:02.

there. And clearly she has been told, it is obvious, that she has a

:10:03.:10:06.

chance of doing so, otherwise you don't go to these parts of the

:10:07.:10:09.

country in the first few days of the campaign. All logic points to her

:10:10.:10:14.

being able to pull it off as well. The opinion polls, the state of the

:10:15.:10:19.

Labour Party. The only qualification I have in this is that politics is

:10:20.:10:23.

so wild and free Braille at the moment, it doesn't feel like

:10:24.:10:30.

landslide to rain. That is true, it doesn't. It is early days, we

:10:31.:10:36.

haven't yet had the manifestos, the campaign is yet to gather momentum.

:10:37.:10:40.

It doesn't feel like landslide territory. I disagree, look at every

:10:41.:10:48.

single poll, the Tory lead is 10% in Wales, you can see her picking up 20

:10:49.:10:53.

seat there. Put this together, I am told by the way she is going into

:10:54.:10:57.

traditional Labour heartland again tomorrow, the key is the Ukip vote.

:10:58.:11:03.

That will implode... Crumble towards Tories? If she can hoover that up

:11:04.:11:22.

and retain the Tory vote, she will have a majority of 150.

:11:23.:11:23.

I cannot let you go without reminding you that it is Donald

:11:24.:11:23.

Trump's 100 days. He's not making a lot of it now, this is what he said

:11:24.:11:24.

last night. We are just beginning in our fight

:11:25.:11:26.

to make America great again. Now, before we talk about my first

:11:27.:11:29.

100 days, which has been very exciting and very productive,

:11:30.:11:38.

let's rate the media's 100 days. Because, as you know,

:11:39.:11:43.

they are a disgrace. There you go, still bashing the

:11:44.:12:03.

media, that was at a rally in Virginia, the 100 days was last

:12:04.:12:08.

night. He seems happier campaigning than running the country. You each

:12:09.:12:12.

have 20 seconds to give me your board on the first 100 days.

:12:13.:12:20.

Remarkable, he will not stop slagging off the media but America

:12:21.:12:25.

first has not meant America first in terms of national policy, he has

:12:26.:12:28.

reneges on what he said about Nato being obsolete. He is moving from

:12:29.:12:33.

the old right to the centre because that is where you get things done,

:12:34.:12:41.

he is a pragmatist, also is about's friend Nigel Parrott is no longer

:12:42.:12:47.

welcome, we read this morning! Allegedly! He loves campaigning but

:12:48.:12:52.

finds governing much more difficult. Who would have thought being

:12:53.:12:56.

president of the United States was a difficult job?! He loves rallies but

:12:57.:13:00.

being president and politics is a very difficult thing indeed. Thank

:13:01.:13:06.

you, there we go, Mr Trump's 100 days, we will see what the next 100

:13:07.:13:07.

brings. The Daily Politics is back

:13:08.:13:10.

on BBC Two after the bank holiday on Tuesday at midday,

:13:11.:13:13.

with all the latest And I'll be back here

:13:14.:13:15.

on BBC One next Sunday Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:16.:13:18.

it's the Sunday Politics. The East End girl who became the

:13:19.:14:25.

nation's favourite. We don't know what it is,

:14:26.:14:27.

but she definitely has... Something. From stage to screen

:14:28.:14:32.

and into our hearts. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

:14:33.:14:37.

Ooh, in't she wonderful? If you're not careful, you'll end up

:14:38.:14:45.

playing this sexy little blonde

:14:46.:14:49.

Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Labour elections coordinator Ian Lavery MP and Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood AM. The Political Panel consists of journalist Isabel Oakeshott, Tom Newton-Dunn of The Sun and journalist Steve Richards.


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