30/03/2014 Sunday Politics Yorkshire and Lincolnshire

Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or

the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the

Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better

Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish

Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?

In Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, music They could be heading

In Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, music boss Pete Waterman tells us why the

government should speed boss Pete Waterman tells us why the

government should speed up the construction of HS2 in the

Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his

critics. And with me, as always, the most

useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually

obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our

chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a

plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be

tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the

Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be

no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent

Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't

necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were

delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage.

The faux pas has come at a time when the Better Together side was already

beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's

speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary

Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal

Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a

sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something

of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice

played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an

unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for

certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union

actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any

big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly

named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the

Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, outlining all the

reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you

have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury

himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never

advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other

and you see that pretty much the force of argument is very much

against those of us who want to remain in the United Kingdom. All

the minister was saying is come the day, if Westminster is negotiating

with a new independent Scotland, a deal is to be done, Faslane where

the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that

is, certainly not for the next 20 years, a deal would be done, the

nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a

monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible,

isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is

more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear

advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic

best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland, any

more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put

the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes

when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a

problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence.

But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently

promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to

remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious

mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got

you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as

running a campaign which is too negative. The Nationalists are

narrowing the gap in the poll found you are squabbling among yourselves.

This campaign is going pear shaped, isn't it? No, let's deal with the

polls. All the polls show that the people of Scotland want to stay as

part of the United Kingdom. Yes, there were a couple of polls last

week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of

all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting

intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of

people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed

to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to

remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a

yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew

towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if

your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking

into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not

impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely

the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole

argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy

lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen. It

can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least

because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the

amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will

be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social

media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we

have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as

theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave

you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think

they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the

agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if

there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold

of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,

when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there

was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is

still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after

the 18th of September this year, not just the next day but the next

year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,

when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked

about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to

get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be

on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think

that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his

word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with

giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or

having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they

have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there

is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his

story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence, of

course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in

London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with

Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop

another country using its. That is different. All London can really do

is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The

interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest.

Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out

of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's

financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of

injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial

crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it

not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the

Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign

which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the

resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists

having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in

the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that

he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a

bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The

polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going

their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the

gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The

plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better

Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they

get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London

Police say, give us a couple of million.

Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when

North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey

has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have

been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95% of

the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit

coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation

by the competition and markets authorities which will look at

whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave

investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not

spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home

might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the

generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's

night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016,

according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to

2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of

candles. Now where is that light switch?

Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light

switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating

capacity could possibly reach 2% next winter or the winter after. We

will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy

investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal

with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up

massively. Investment has been 8 billion a year. Last year was a

record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing

it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment

massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights

on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing

anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we

have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We

have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will

come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that

we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have

one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having

major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The

figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.

Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from

interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are

able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a

mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on

that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to

under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our

plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it

would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply

who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our

plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to

come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of

power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.

There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we

are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.

We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction

for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned

lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries

so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I

am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000

megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost

22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power

supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those

figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power

plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,

nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment, but

we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to

date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare

capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour

Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing

significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also

remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at

15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average

margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since

privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high

margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have

historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so we make

sure the lights stay on, we have a short-term policy I have described

to you, and medium-term policy and a long-term policy. The long-term

policy comes huge investment between nuclear and optional,

policy comes huge investment between on. Ofgem, Independent, says the

chance of blackouts by 2016 has increased fourfold under your watch.

What they say, if you read the report, if we did nothing, they

would be problems. But we have been working with Ofgem. We have been

working with National Grid, and we have agreed that there will be a

reserve capacity which can come on if we get to the peak for the Best

not just on the supply side but demand and into connectors. You talk

about industry having to move to off-peak times. We say, they are

prepared to that you paid for it, and it makes commercial sense for

them, it's a sensible thing for the Wii will pay them to move to

off-peak. You have huge diesel parks for the you talk as if that

something new but it's been around for a long time for the 200 these

contracts out there. We want to expand that. You have hundreds of

diesel generators to click into, haven't you? There's a whole range

of generators. Diesel generation, dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed

gas which can come. If you look at the increase of the independent

generators, many companies, a range of power companies who are building

a new power station and want to build new ones. This is a healthy

situation. You say you made over 100 billion new investment between now

and the end of the decade to restore capacity and meet renewable

targets. Now you have referred the Big Six to the competition

commission, how much of that to expect to come from them? We will

see what the market delivers. We have always expected independent

generators to do a lot more than is happening in the past. How much from

the Big Six? It's not for me to say it's going to be best from that

company. The real interest is we have huge amounts of companies

wanting to invest. If you look at independent analysis, they say

Britain is one of the best places to invest in energy in the world. We

are the worldly do in offshore wind, one of the best for

renewables, one of the only countries getting nuclear power

stations. Rather than the bleaker picture you're painting, the reverse

is the case. We are seeing an investment renaissance. You say

that. Let me give you some facts. Under this Government, only one gas

plant has been under construction, only one started under your watch

for the others were done under Labour. You have none in the

pipeline. The Big Six has pulled back from further investment

including new offshore wind investment and none of what you're

talking about will come before 2020 anyway. That's simply not true. The

balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the

mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new

power, will happen way before 2020, so that's not true. But doesn't

answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of

this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said

permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to

do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's

very sensible. Medium-term plan, auctioning for new power stations.

That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent

plant being built, and the long-term plan, to stimulator long-term

investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the

end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your

painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how

you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive

sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a

deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012

prices. All of that puts up our bills. First

of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has

been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas

prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future

-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,

many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come

online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You

have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from

this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been

going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not

recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but

more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but

it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In

those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep

price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If

gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear

and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that

power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on

this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of

offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%

in the next few years. That figure is 155, and for the deeper stuff,

it's going to be ?165. That's the first year of a limit control

framework which had it coming down. If you talk to many companies,

Siemens had invested with their partners, ?310 million with two new

factories. They are talking about lower prices because what they are

saying to me is that, rather than the 30% cost reductions I talked

about, I was wrong, they are targeting 40%. You said prices would

come down 30% in two years for that that was 2012 and they have gone

higher. I absolutely did not say that. Your exact quote was 30% in

the next few years. Your exact few years. You said two years, I sell a

few years. I haven't changed a single moment that you said two

years, I said a few years. That's what we are projecting. They will

come down. You have to invest in technology. Let me give you this

example. When people invest in mobile phones to start off with,

they were expensive, and they were clunky and the costs were going down

for the one final question. You put the Big Six into investigation

because they made a 5% return on investment and you're done a deal

with EDF, nuclear power, which will guarantee them a return of 10% - 15%

every year for 30 years. Doesn't that underline the shambles of your

energy policy? You have mixed up two separate things. The 5% Ofgem are

talking about is on the supply retail side. The percentage you

quoted for EDF is in the wholesale side of two different markets. It's

the same return. It's not. You are comparing apples and pears,

dangerous thing to do. You have to do have a high return but in the

retail market, with a 5% stake, there is less risk, says a low

return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we haven't got more time. Thank you.

Have me back. We will. Whatever happened to the BNP? The far right

party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so

long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be

speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first

here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment

in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at

their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They

already were the second largest party in a London council and had a

London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties

their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring

success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded

and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty

retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that

retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of

those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were

performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller

parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they

didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the

middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities

for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the

outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 2006 in

Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop

of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking

up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's

because of all the different nationality people moving in the

area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived

there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah,

they will get elected over here. When I came to Barking, Dagenham and

Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the

local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now

they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people,

you will find among the older white working-class population concerned

that the BNP claim to represent, everyone says they are nowhere. So

what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain,

we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of

extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as

she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a

single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would

stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2010

was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to

find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new

political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour.

Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs

and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically,

BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe

that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the

difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all

get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP

didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they

will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't

got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow

MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this

programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was

after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership.

Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had

already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time. It was

a national platform for the BNP, something they felt they had the

right to through electoral success. This was no big breakthrough moment

for Griffin, unlike it was for John Marina pen when he appeared on

national television in France. He went on to mobilise a national

force. Despite there being some voters tuned to their message, for

the BNP, becoming such a force here has never looked quite so difficult.

And Simon Derby from the BNP joins me now. Welcome to the Sunday

Politics. It was not long ago you had 55 councillors up and down the

land, you now have two. You are on the brink of extinction. That is not

true. I have watched the film. It is very negative as I would expect. The

party has faced a few problems. The main thing to bear in mind is that

the issues, the problems the country faces have gone away. We won nearly

a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate

to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would --

were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus.

You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or

more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests

and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point

about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat

to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have

co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly

had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is

unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your

sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see

the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in

decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you

describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and

other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking

and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What

Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white

indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how

they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well

elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your

party is heading for bankruptcy. No, it is not. It is over. You would

like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in

deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no

way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then

you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be

annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP

were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are

not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in

politics. You have to appear with them? Of course we do, we have to

speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at

the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be

here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying

to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why

can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in

Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We

decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that.

Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you

cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs

are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections, the

problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the

National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before,

that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and

how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years

ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going

to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is

going to be set up in this country. That will lead to huge problems.

Only the British National Party are prepared to say that and deal with

it. Word leaked out that I was doing this interview with you before the

weekend. Isn't it a sign of how irrelevant you now are that not a

single person has turned up at New Broadcasting House this morning to

protest? Used to be hundreds would turn up when we said the BNP were

on. That is the left for you, they put the clocks forward and they

could not be bothered to get out of bed. I think they are still in bed.

Thank you. You're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday

Hello, you are watching the politics show for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.

Music boss Pete Waterman tells us why the government should speed up

construction of HS2 from London to the North.

And the wind of change, why a German company has delivered a much needed

jobs boost to the Humber. Our guests today are the Transport

Minister and MP for Scarborough and Whitby MP Robert Goodwill, and the

Shadow Home Office Minister and Labour MP for Hull North Diana

Johnson. Hello. We are going to talk first about

High Speed Rail. There are calls for the government to speed up

construction of the Yorkshire leg of HS2. Bringing forward the building

of line from Leeds and Sheffield to London would bring massive economic

benefits, which would far outweigh the huge cost. `` the line. So says

the music mogul who has been responsible for many a pop career,

including Kylie Minogue. That is Pete Waterman. Len Tingle reports.

For a decade, it Yorkshire has been lobbying for a net of rail service

to change it economic situation. Now HS2 appears to be on the way. But it

will have less chance of shooting up the economic charts if other towns

and cities get High Speed Rail link first. And that coming from someone

who knows about chart success. MUSIC: "I Should Be So Lucky" by

Kylie Minogue. Kylie Minogue was one of those he

helped. Pop producer and song writer Pete Waterman is an unlikely

champion for building the ?43 billion High Speed Rail project from

Sir. Tim points, so the economic benefits can be shared equally

across the North and the Midlands. The multimillionaire spends as much

time running his railway business `` dismisses as searching for the next

Kylie Minogue. `` dismisses. It is not great having one vibrant

town, you have to have the whole area so it spreads out. Bradford

benefits, York benefits, places like that. So it spreads, because wealth

spreads. That is the great thing about it. The company set up to plan

and build HS2 says the schedule should be changed. It originally

intended completing the first phase from London to Birmingham. Ten on

the one from Manchester and the other to Sheffield and Leeds. But

this time, there should be accessed to the North West, with Yorkshire

linked seven years later, leaving places like Meadowhall on the

sidelines, while areas the other side of the Pennines can market

element opportunities with more and faster trains in service. That is

enough time for even the biggest projects to be grabbed and

completed. The speed of development is illustrated here, from concept,

planning, building, to opening, Meadowhall took four years. The

worry is that if HS2 gets into Lancashire seven years before it

reaches here, all that fresh investment will already have been

used up, leaving Meadowhall with a brand`new railhead but no economic

benefit. But one influential economic think

tank says timing is not as important as investing in and improving

existing intercity rail services to link up with HS2 when it arrives.

Northern hub is really important, taking forward that, you can

potentially see more of those intercity networks, speeding up

links between Leeds and Manchester. It is a priority beyond HS2. Those

links could make it work. How ridiculous that Leeds is 40

miles from Manchester and it takes one hour and ten minutes, that is

ridiculous, it is unacceptable! We no longer have a choice. Either

become a banana republic without the sunshine or we become a real country

again, and that means we all have to not be selfish and we have to think

about the greater good of everybody. If some people will be

disenfranchised and they will lose a garden or a house, they release a

factory, that is the way we have to do it. We have no choice. We cannot

say to our grandchildren, I was not going to give up my garden for you

to have a job in 30 years' time. That is not acceptable any more.

These arguments of when, where and how fast construction should take

place have a long way to go because the project, the biggest in rail

history, is not expected to see trains reach Yorkshire until the 20

30s. A bit of help from Kylie Minogue

that! Is there an argument. Team to build HS2 from Yorkshire southwards?

`` is there an argument to build. There are things we can do in

Yorkshire before the line arrives, round the station in Leeds, there is

potential for development to enable that to be ready for when the trains

arrive. And the network will join to the conventional network so when HS2

arrives in Leeds, trains will continue further North. And trains

running through Manchester will go up to Glasgow. If the western leg

gets to crew six years before Yorkshire, the North West will get

the benefit. `` Crewe. We are at least starting this project, it has

been delayed for decades and nobody has Pete Waterman had the guts to do

it, because the North has always been losing out, and I was in

Sheffield last week with the leader of the council and they are

desperate to see HS2 in the North, they are desperate for the

investment and the jobs it will bring to the North of England.

Is Labour increasingly getting cold feet about HS2? Ed Balls said he

could not promise a blank cheque and now the shadow Transport Secretary

starting to question the cost. It is right Labour looks at the cost of

this, there is no blank cheque. We accept we need to invest in the

railways. I am very keen on the investment between the East and the

West to link up the big northern cities. We have had to fight hard to

get the money to electrify the line to hold. `` Hull. And we also have

the issue of rolling stock, carriages going South because of the

investments in the South not coming to the North. We have to fight hard

in the North to make sure we get investment. This project cannot be

done on the cheap. Labour is either in favour or against the idea. You

should not say, you are not going to look at the cost to make sure we are

getting value for money, we need to be careful about how the money is

spent. Also, look at the economic benefit to the North. It is 42, 40

?3 billion, perhaps more than 50 billion, can you still justify that?

`` ?43 billion. For the first time in living memory, I say Ed Balls is

right and we need to keep an eye on the cost. We are also investing in

the conventional network, we are planning to electrify 850 miles of

railway, that is 842 miles more than the previous government. We have

listened and we have responded, but we are electrifying the

trans`Pennine line so electric trains will run from Manchester to

Leeds and more widely the northern hub will help connect a lot of the

North of England and make it easier to get around. One of the biggest ``

one of the biggest single job boosts ever seen in the North of England

was announced this week. It involves the German engineering giant Siemens

creating an offshore wind manufacturing centre on the Humber.

It will mean at least 1,000 new jobs at two sites and the potential for

hundreds more in the supply chain across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.

David Cameron described it as a "massive vote of confidence" in the

regional economy. Paul Murphy has the story.

These impressive machines support it growing manufacturing sector but to

the frustration of the UK, they all made abroad. That is about to

change. I remember talking to Siemens three years ago and we just

kept going because I really believe in this investment for Humberside,

it is skilled jobs, an important new business. It will make Britain a

world leader in offshore wind. Siemens is planning two

manufacturing plants, in Hull and downstream in the village of pool,

creating 1,000 jobs and to perhaps more in the supply chain. It is

another instalment of positive news for the region and it comes hot on

the heels of Hull being named City of Culture. This is a city where

things are happening. I think that has travelled around the country

loud and clear and particularly earlier this week. In a city where

youth unemployment often reaches record levels, there is a new sense

of optimism. I would love to work for Siemens, it is a huge company

and it will create a lot of opportunities for everyone.

Everybody could get involved because it is so huge. This was the last big

industry in Hull, a fishing port employing thousands, known

throughout the world, but a political row over trawler grounds

led to the collapse of the fleet in the 1970s and the dole queue for

many. The dereliction of the. This is a reminder of how many `` the

dereliction of the dogs is a reminder of how quickly industry can

fall. For Ken, news of the investment lists his spirits. We

need it more than news, this town will be buzzing again like it was in

the 1960s onwards with the fishing industry, this could be as big, if

not a go. `` if not eager. `` bigger. It has taken three years for

the government to persuade Siemens to invest, the company were hesitant

following concerns over levels of government subsidy. Those issues are

behind us. When a government tries to change energy policy, it creates

uncertainty, the climate bill passed at the end of last year and the

uncertainty is behind as so we have decided to go forward. In the wake

of the old maritime industry here, a new one is emerging. Siemens is,

according to one local MP, the biggest fish that Hull has ever

wondered. The challenge now for communities around the Humber is to

make the most of the hand they have been dealt. `` has landed. The

Humber has always been successful and the decline of the fishing

industry hit us hard, but we have always been successful in maximising

the Humber, and that has brought Siemens here.

Siemens investment comes as the UN 's intergovernmental panel prepares

to publish its first update on climate change for several years.

Debates will continue about the Green credentials of this, the

heaviest of industries, at its potential impact on the people of

the Humber is obvious and there is a real sense of a new beginning for an

often troubled regional economy. David Cameron described the deal as

a vote of confidence in the government's long`term economic

plan, do you agree? Let's be clear, this started in 2010 when Gordon

Brown was Prime Minister. That is when it started and it has been four

years to get to this point. I am delighted we had this news. There

have been problems along the road, the government not clear about its

commitment to renewables did not help, but it is great news for my

city. David Cameron was praising Siemens and he said offshore wind

would be the future for many people, but a couple of months ago, he used

the C word. He said we need to cut the green... What has happens now?

The good news keeps coming. We have a similar plan on the South bank of

the river. We had an announcement from national express that there

were placing it on hundred million pound order in my constituency.

Hitachi are having their global headquarters in Sedgefield and their

is the prospect of 1,000 mining field jobs in Yorkshire, so a lot of

jobs are being created. There are more people working in the UK than

ever before, that is great news for the economy and Yorkshire. It is

getting harder for the `` labour to criticise the government's economic

record. I am delighted these jobs are coming to Hull but I want to

pick up on more people in work than ever before. That is right, but we

need to look at the quality of jobs, more people on hours contracts, more

people on part`time work. I spoke to women recently who said they wanted

to work additional hours but they were not available. We want people

in full`time work paid at a decent rate, because the minimum wage is

not being enforced with a lot of employers and we need to make sure

that is working for people. Lord Heseltine said areas like the

Humber still needed more investment to create jobs, you cannot rely on

single deals like Siemens. We also need to obscure the economy.

I was at Sheffield, the University technical college, a high`speed

project we were talking about, there will be a skills college with that,

so there are two mentis opportunities for people to get

skills in engineering and construction and take jobs as they

become available `` tremendous opportunities. The emphasis is on

apprenticeships and making things we can sell around the world, rather

than relying on the financial services sector in the South East.

But the energy giant `` and energy giant this week announced it was

scrapping plans for four offshore wind projects because of the

expense. This is an expensive way of producing electricity. But Siemens

are a major company in the world. They are putting money into this, so

these are not foolish people, they have looked at the economic

advantages to their businesses of doing this and it is clear we are at

the start of this industry in this country and we could be setting this

new industry alight in Hull. We can become a renewable centre and costs

will, down over time. `` will, down. Is this a message for Tory

Eurosceptics, would Siemens be investing if we were not part of the

EU? There are big frontages for jobs. It is not just Polish people

coming here, British people are producing goods to be sold in Poland

now. There is a downside to leaving the EU and before we took that step,

we would have to look very carefully at the effect on jobs. Channel five,

in what has been a good week for Hull, have been looking at your city

and you are not happy. People are on benefits in

Westminster and Chelsea, why are they looking at somewhere like Hull?

It is a stereotype that people in the North on benefits and we have

shown with this massive investment by Siemens that they are behind the

times. They would need to look at the renewal of whole. `` they need

to. `` they need to look at the renewal of Hull.

Let's get some more of the week's political news now. Louise Martin

has our round`up in 60 seconds. A BBC investigation has revealed

rent arrears increased and hundreds of eviction notices have conserved

across Yorkshire as a direct result of a squeeze on housing benefits.

But in the last year, only 6% of those affected by this pairing tax

in this region only `` actually moved house. `` the spare room tax.

The government claimed it is on target and has made savings.

A Tory councillor posted a picture showing a line`up of scantily clad

women on Twitter and compared it to the short list used to choose a

Labour candidate. Richard Davies has been forced to apologise for the

photograph which he posted with the caption, actual posting of the

hustings. And 100 days to go until the start

of the Tour de France in Yorkshire on July the 5th, some of the biggest

names in cycling were at Ripon and the draw for an official gala

dinner. `` and Cathedral. 100 days to get into shape. Let's

talk about the spare room subsidy. Only 6% of tenants have moved home,

more than one in four are in rent arrears, are you surprised? Over a

region this big, that is a lot of homes and that means people in

overcrowded accommodation are using that additional capacity. It is

important we do have a situation where people who do have spare

bedrooms make them available for people to move into. The previous

government recognise that I introducing the same rules for the

private sector, we have extended that to the social rented sector so

it was Labour's idea. Labour supports the welfare cap announced

by the Chancellor, how can they support that when it is not willing

to make sacrifices such as the spare room subsidy? We said we would scrap

the bedroom tax, it is unfair and not practical. There 5,000

households in affected by this and about 20, 30 homes available each

week. So even if people want to move, they're not the homes

available. As to the welfare cap, we have a of things we think will deal

with some of the issues. `` a range of things. We want to take the

winter fuel allowance away from the most wealthy pensioners. There are a

number of things we can do while recognising people on benefits needs

to be supported. On the Twitter message, does the Conservative party

have a problem with women? Yes! No, we have a lot of women in

Parliament. Not in Yorkshire. We were the first party to have a woman

Prime Minister. Many people would see that picture is demeaning, but

many women would see having an all women short list is demeaning

because we believe if women get a role as an MP or counsellor, that

should be on merit and not because they are a woman. The women in the

Conservative party are making such a good contribution and they have the

skills and the ability to do it, not just because of their gender. Opt

all women short lists discrimination? They are not, they

are a way of making sure we have women in Parliament and in politics.

Parliament is still nearly 80% male dominated and that is not a healthy

situation for a democracy. I stood on an all woman short list to be

selected, I was elected by my constituents in 2005 and again in

2010. I think this idea it is demeaning is utter rubbish. Would

you like to see a woman candidate to replace and Macintosh? That would be

brilliant. The more women we have, the better. `` Anne. We have a

female Police and Crime Commissioner it in North Yorkshire who is doing a

great job. Very few women MPs. She was the only woman you had in the

region, that is a shame. We have a lot of women doing a great job, we

have a female Home Secretary, we have women in the Cabinet and in

ministerial departments. Not enough, and not in your team. David Cameron

has made great strides to get more women into Parliament and we are

getting more women into ministries. Not in your team! Not in the Lords.

That is about it from us. Thanks to our guests today, Diana Johnson and

Robert Goodwill. Now let's go back to Andrew Neil in London.

Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP

finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin

with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London

about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs

back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are

falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National

front in France is that they are building on decades of successful

that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I

think. And, even in the 60s, they were versions of their politics. So

they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly

few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does

seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but

in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty

far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local

elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties

prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream

parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a

council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is

because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions

in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of

the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and

left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot

of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was

here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and

EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and Giles still not mention

that the Labour Party has got its act together. They got the act

together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.

I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes

from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the

difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front

Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they

were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 2002

they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far

right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.

Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further

across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a

much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she

will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will

always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone

for the European elections. It does and for the next French presidential

election as well. I think what she's doing masterfully is combining a far

right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.

She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes

from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who

would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current

president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties

have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP

are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at

issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are

quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes

from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer

for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are

rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they

become part of the system that people were voting against in the

first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour

Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday

Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you

are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the

Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I

have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record

briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the

mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been

a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.

There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and

they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit

still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the

coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary

changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.

What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this

has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a

very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and

then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The

British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party

political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people

from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a

bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being

unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining

characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a

lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the

budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the

signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.

The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has

the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price

freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these

energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for

that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up

with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student

tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price

freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the

Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming

the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick

through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in

2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what

campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the

scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be

winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was

because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87

or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What

they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government

because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or

February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of

animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must

be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological

differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how

little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have

outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he

is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There

was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And

Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions

is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those

two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not

done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed

Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with

the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the

debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.

We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's

remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.

I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...

Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with

you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the

drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We have 485 million people... It is

simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I

don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the

facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better

here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great

not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.

Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this

week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate

for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the

other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult

argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he

distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just

closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU

immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away

from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us

to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his

reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.

I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage

would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public

favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question

is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to

that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a

binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on

opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg

needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very

well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he

said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to

talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had

made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do

not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,

it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or

without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and

also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an

hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but

Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal

with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has

honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.

That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime

every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 11

o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.