21/09/2014 Sunday Politics


21/09/2014

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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering

:00:10.:00:13.

for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what

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the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for

:00:17.:00:54.

Scotland's decision to vote 'no' means more powers heading north

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But what about Home Rule for England?

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Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells

:01:08.:01:12.

us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've

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got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to be Labour MPs

:01:18.:01:23.

think about immigration, the cue and their party. We will ask the Shadow

:01:24.:01:30.

Business Secretary if he agrees. In London, thoughts of more tax-raising

:01:31.:01:33.

powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step

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for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the

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business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,

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Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to

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other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,

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but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and

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enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when

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it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons

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of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,

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the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It

:02:23.:02:32.

has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that

:02:33.:02:36.

they hoped would swing the vote, there was nothing about English-only

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votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core

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justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the

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House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. --

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cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David

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Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris

:03:02.:03:05.

Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr

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Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood

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and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he

:03:13.:03:22.

They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the

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Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is

:03:30.:03:38.

a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the

:03:39.:03:41.

ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He

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knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a

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draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they

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had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve

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these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they

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don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about

:04:05.:04:10.

is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at

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the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an

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overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern

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Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is

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whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he

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would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get

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either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause

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Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband

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this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why

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shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this

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morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and

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English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is

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in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his

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announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in

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Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if

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Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is

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handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural

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Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory

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backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be

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in which bodes for English laws. Even people in the Shadow Cabinet

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think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a

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partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on

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course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,

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and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the

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Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in

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sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this

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one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle

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to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband

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and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett

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Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,

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but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how

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the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,

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Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,

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because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher

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in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs

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aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the

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Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How

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can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just

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about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we

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are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers

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of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the

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wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we

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should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to

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the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett

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Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively

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prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance

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staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is

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more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland

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than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very

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poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That

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they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the

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Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand

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the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster

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politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to

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rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your

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leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of

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all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the

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Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was

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counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing

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voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep

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proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We

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said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes

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on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,

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pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of

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the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a

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Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double

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standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly

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unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is

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unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland

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gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London.

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Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There

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is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.

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Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year

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revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5

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billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer

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investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a

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more federal system, we would need to look at things like the

:09:38.:09:41.

allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted

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as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party

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architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so

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it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to

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the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs

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basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of

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Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his

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promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English

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votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he

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made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked

:10:19.:10:22.

on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots

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of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at

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this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find

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that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot

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just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for

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all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more

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devolution to Scotland, but let's deliver on promises to be English,

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and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's

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leave it there. Thank you for joining us.

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The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from

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the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex

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Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us

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another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand

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Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.

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In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,

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but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke

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The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for

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Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big

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screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories

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high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The

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other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is

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enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot

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papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 19,000

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and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the

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first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like

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Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to

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sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you

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small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign

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applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went

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their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for

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independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of

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tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the

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refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy

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place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British

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establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this

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referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the

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establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.

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But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC

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called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence. The

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result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the

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official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen

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three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as

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the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south

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as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if

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it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote

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separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,

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spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern

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Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take

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place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.

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It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See

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you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be

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another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There

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was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,

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his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the

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Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,

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the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader

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gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as

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First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last

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night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if

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it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I

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certainly have thought about it, Andrew. But for most of the

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referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...

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Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally

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made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the

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decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you

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get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real

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possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion

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but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of

:16:02.:16:06.

the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are

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the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my

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judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the

:16:14.:16:18.

National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.

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In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day

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approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought

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for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real

:16:33.:16:40.

chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the

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decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,

:16:44.:16:49.

the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from

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Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the

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offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across

:16:57.:17:01.

to independence saw within that, a reason to say, well, we can get

:17:02.:17:04.

something anyway without the perceived risks that were being

:17:05.:17:12.

festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.

:17:13.:17:19.

You won Scotland's largest city. There is now the prospect of more

:17:20.:17:23.

power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is

:17:24.:17:30.

a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part

:17:31.:17:34.

of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire

:17:35.:17:38.

wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to

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be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see

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that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There

:17:49.:17:53.

are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the

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party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24

:17:58.:18:03.

years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many

:18:04.:18:07.

able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will

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do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take

:18:11.:18:18.

this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is

:18:19.:18:22.

developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that

:18:23.:18:25.

lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won

:18:26.:18:31.

end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days

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before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would

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change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There

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are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as

:18:47.:18:52.

a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will

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leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before

:18:58.:19:01.

Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I

:19:02.:19:05.

would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary

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campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving

:19:10.:19:13.

the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like

:19:14.:19:17.

of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon

:19:18.:19:21.

of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far,

:19:22.:19:27.

almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you,

:19:28.:19:38.

would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and

:19:39.:19:46.

pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him

:19:47.:19:50.

that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.

:19:51.:19:56.

The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was

:19:57.:20:01.

extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in

:20:02.:20:05.

the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair

:20:06.:20:14.

kick of the ball. In newspapers, I would settle for no editorial line

:20:15.:20:18.

and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish

:20:19.:20:21.

Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,

:20:22.:20:27.

certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in

:20:28.:20:37.

Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum

:20:38.:20:42.

wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that

:20:43.:20:48.

still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal

:20:49.:20:52.

view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK

:20:53.:20:57.

moved out of the European Union, for example, that would be the sort of

:20:58.:21:00.

circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and

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I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am

:21:05.:21:10.

just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally

:21:11.:21:13.

shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?

:21:14.:21:19.

You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that

:21:20.:21:23.

essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants

:21:24.:21:28.

to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that

:21:29.:21:31.

because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this

:21:32.:21:36.

and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are

:21:37.:21:39.

frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority

:21:40.:21:42.

in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an

:21:43.:21:48.

irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is

:21:49.:21:54.

movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something

:21:55.:21:57.

cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I

:21:58.:21:59.

think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It

:22:00.:22:06.

was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,

:22:07.:22:11.

effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and

:22:12.:22:16.

David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about

:22:17.:22:23.

the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that

:22:24.:22:30.

matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you

:22:31.:22:36.

advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or

:22:37.:22:42.

her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader

:22:43.:22:49.

brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very

:22:50.:22:53.

favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined

:22:54.:23:00.

since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in

:23:01.:23:03.

the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity

:23:04.:23:15.

for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would

:23:16.:23:19.

repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First

:23:20.:23:25.

Minister of Scotland. On Friday, coming back to the north-east of

:23:26.:23:29.

Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --

:23:30.:23:36.

substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my

:23:37.:23:40.

head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last

:23:41.:23:48.

line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not

:23:49.:23:56.

seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the

:23:57.:23:59.

Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?

:24:00.:24:04.

What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is

:24:05.:24:11.

dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose

:24:12.:24:15.

to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a

:24:16.:24:20.

constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line

:24:21.:24:23.

politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn't do

:24:24.:24:27.

it properly, I am sure they did. But I love it. You get distilled wisdom

:24:28.:24:33.

from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your

:24:34.:24:36.

feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to

:24:37.:24:40.

people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of

:24:41.:24:45.

Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes!

:24:46.:24:56.

Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the

:24:57.:25:04.

independence referendum is over, the next big electoral test is a general

:25:05.:25:08.

election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be

:25:09.:25:14.

talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men

:25:15.:25:18.

and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday

:25:19.:25:22.

Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the

:25:23.:25:28.

Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates

:25:29.:25:30.

say that the level of public spending during their last period of

:25:31.:25:35.

office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise

:25:36.:25:39.

taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On

:25:40.:25:43.

immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too

:25:44.:25:49.

high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates

:25:50.:25:52.

believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.

:25:53.:25:56.

Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the

:25:57.:26:02.

candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in

:26:03.:26:06.

five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change

:26:07.:26:11.

of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came

:26:12.:26:20.

in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.

:26:21.:26:24.

Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think

:26:25.:26:31.

I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't

:26:32.:26:34.

think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right. I

:26:35.:26:39.

think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many

:26:40.:26:43.

of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next

:26:44.:26:46.

generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your

:26:47.:26:49.

viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they

:26:50.:26:54.

can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the

:26:55.:26:58.

public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want

:26:59.:27:02.

to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they

:27:03.:27:04.

don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap

:27:05.:27:08.

Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party

:27:09.:27:13.

policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our

:27:14.:27:16.

policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over

:27:17.:27:21.

?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that

:27:22.:27:23.

enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk

:27:24.:27:32.

to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns

:27:33.:27:35.

about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,

:27:36.:27:39.

yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they

:27:40.:27:42.

take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural

:27:43.:27:47.

nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't

:27:48.:27:50.

think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's

:27:51.:27:56.

not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You

:27:57.:28:02.

described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you

:28:03.:28:05.

that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions

:28:06.:28:10.

that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don't

:28:11.:28:14.

think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the

:28:15.:28:18.

heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,

:28:19.:28:22.

radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy? It

:28:23.:28:26.

isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will

:28:27.:28:36.

have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general

:28:37.:28:40.

election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.

:28:41.:28:45.

I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They

:28:46.:28:51.

are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a

:28:52.:28:54.

small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's

:28:55.:28:58.

pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or

:28:59.:29:02.

wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour

:29:03.:29:07.

is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old

:29:08.:29:15.

or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great

:29:16.:29:18.

country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can

:29:19.:29:23.

achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are

:29:24.:29:27.

not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of

:29:28.:29:30.

their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.

:29:31.:29:34.

Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we

:29:35.:29:37.

are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you

:29:38.:29:41.

want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between

:29:42.:29:44.

Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next

:29:45.:29:55.

government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that

:29:56.:29:57.

the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them

:29:58.:30:00.

think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.

:30:01.:30:04.

Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly

:30:05.:30:10.

representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member

:30:11.:30:14.

of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here

:30:15.:30:16.

to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.

:30:17.:30:21.

Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it

:30:22.:30:26.

should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help

:30:27.:30:30.

create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories

:30:31.:30:35.

we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have

:30:36.:30:40.

trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees

:30:41.:30:44.

to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or

:30:45.:30:48.

bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the

:30:49.:30:52.

tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's

:30:53.:30:59.

turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional

:31:00.:31:03.

conversation where you have to discuss whether English people

:31:04.:31:06.

voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions

:31:07.:31:10.

and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,

:31:11.:31:14.

we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying

:31:15.:31:22.

rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is

:31:23.:31:27.

the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where

:31:28.:31:31.

people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers

:31:32.:31:33.

talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point

:31:34.:31:39.

you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to

:31:40.:31:44.

vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you

:31:45.:31:48.

see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is

:31:49.:31:53.

an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so

:31:54.:31:56.

simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British

:31:57.:32:00.

constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of

:32:01.:32:06.

Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the

:32:07.:32:11.

transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In

:32:12.:32:15.

Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote

:32:16.:32:18.

on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different

:32:19.:32:22.

votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not

:32:23.:32:26.

necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in

:32:27.:32:29.

Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I

:32:30.:32:34.

think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy

:32:35.:32:39.

in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,

:32:40.:32:43.

Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to

:32:44.:32:46.

now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue

:32:47.:32:51.

of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in

:32:52.:32:55.

bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.

:32:56.:32:59.

What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give

:33:00.:33:03.

you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a

:33:04.:33:08.

rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and

:33:09.:33:11.

there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has

:33:12.:33:18.

vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell

:33:19.:33:21.

us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme

:33:22.:33:26.

right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on

:33:27.:33:29.

tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.

:33:30.:33:33.

Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable

:33:34.:33:38.

future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending

:33:39.:33:42.

for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many

:33:43.:33:46.

of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said

:33:47.:33:52.

that in terms of looking at go -- local government spending playing

:33:53.:33:54.

out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has

:33:55.:33:58.

done which is having already deprived communities having money

:33:59.:34:01.

taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We

:34:02.:34:05.

accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?

:34:06.:34:11.

There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to

:34:12.:34:16.

do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm

:34:17.:34:23.

not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --

:34:24.:34:25.

government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which

:34:26.:34:32.

is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in

:34:33.:34:35.

Scotland are way ahead of Wales. Why is that fair Labour politician? We

:34:36.:34:41.

have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,

:34:42.:34:45.

you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure

:34:46.:34:49.

necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this

:34:50.:34:53.

debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I

:34:54.:34:57.

want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The

:34:58.:35:01.

unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of

:35:02.:35:06.

the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up

:35:07.:35:08.

different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against

:35:09.:35:12.

what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we

:35:13.:35:16.

shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the

:35:17.:35:19.

minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which

:35:20.:35:25.

would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five

:35:26.:35:29.

years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back

:35:30.:35:37.

in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I

:35:38.:35:43.

can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we

:35:44.:35:48.

have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if

:35:49.:35:51.

people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income

:35:52.:35:55.

tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in

:35:56.:35:59.

tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm

:36:00.:36:03.

not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid

:36:04.:36:08.

workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the

:36:09.:36:12.

payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they

:36:13.:36:17.

get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our

:36:18.:36:22.

proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at

:36:23.:36:26.

the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep? I

:36:27.:36:35.

cannot give you an exact figure. Why don't you give me an exact figure if

:36:36.:36:38.

you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest

:36:39.:36:41.

paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down

:36:42.:36:44.

this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 60%

:36:45.:36:51.

and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I

:36:52.:36:55.

don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just

:36:56.:37:00.

don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out

:37:01.:37:05.

policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies

:37:06.:37:08.

before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their

:37:09.:37:11.

pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are

:37:12.:37:14.

also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as

:37:15.:37:18.

well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering,

:37:19.:37:22.

great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge

:37:23.:37:26.

number of your viewers and we're determined to do something about it.

:37:27.:37:29.

The status quo is not an option. And even joining me. Twice in three

:37:30.:37:33.

days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,

:37:34.:37:36.

not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're

:37:37.:37:39.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland

:37:40.:37:41.

who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:42.:37:44.

we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing

:37:45.:37:49.

Labour as their conference starts First though,

:37:50.:37:51.

the Sunday Politics where you are. First though,

:37:52.:00:58.

the Conservative mayor's policy. No more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back

:00:59.:00:59.

to you. Welcome back the to Labour

:01:00.:01:07.

conference, where we're joined by the latest hot new stand-up

:01:08.:01:09.

comedian on the Manchester circuit. I speak of course of former Deputy

:01:10.:01:13.

Prime Minister John Prescott. In between giving tub-thumping

:01:14.:01:18.

speeches to rally the party faithful this week,

:01:19.:01:20.

he's appearing at the Comedy Store. He was also of course the man

:01:21.:01:23.

behind the last attempt to solve Our political panel is with me as

:01:24.:01:36.

well. John, we have got Scottish votes for Scottish laws, and more

:01:37.:01:39.

Scottish votes for Scottish laws, why not English votes for English

:01:40.:01:44.

laws? That's an English parliament in a major constitutional change and

:01:45.:01:48.

that is what has started. I certainly don't agree with that. I

:01:49.:01:52.

campaign for powers to be given to the regions. When I first tested it

:01:53.:01:56.

in the Northeast, I lost. Why? Because they said they were not the

:01:57.:01:59.

same powers you are giving to Scotland. So, basically, we must do

:02:00.:02:05.

that, decentralised, not just with a Westminster Parliament. As you know,

:02:06.:02:11.

in 32 years I produce the alternative. You've kept that for 32

:02:12.:02:17.

years? I took it off my shelf and everybody was talking about it now,

:02:18.:02:20.

but they weren't in 1982. This was my five plan. 200 meetings all

:02:21.:02:26.

around the country -- five-year plan. You wrote this morning, not 35

:02:27.:02:32.

years ago, that this was a plot to turn Westminster into a Tory

:02:33.:02:36.

dominated English parliament. But if that is how England had voted, it's

:02:37.:02:42.

not a plot, it's democracy. You can get reform in a more federal

:02:43.:02:46.

structure, and even English parliament does fit into the federal

:02:47.:02:48.

structure and that is what the Liberals say, but you need a fairer

:02:49.:02:53.

representation. It might be quite radical, and we could get rid of the

:02:54.:02:57.

Lord's, and have representation in the region there. It can't be done

:02:58.:03:02.

in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's assuming he has been sold out, and

:03:03.:03:07.

it was less than a week ago they remain the announcement. We have to

:03:08.:03:12.

get it carried out will stop but don't connect it to the English

:03:13.:03:15.

parliament that fixes it in their favour. It may be pretty low

:03:16.:03:20.

politics from David Cameron to come up with something that was not in

:03:21.:03:27.

the vowel -- a bow on the front page of the daily record, but if they do

:03:28.:03:30.

not agree with what he said at the time of the general election, he

:03:31.:03:33.

will say two in which voters, if you want real protection in England,

:03:34.:03:37.

vote Conservative, and if you want Scottish MPs deciding on your level

:03:38.:03:41.

of taxation, vote Labour. He is scared to death of UKIP may have

:03:42.:03:46.

been saying it for a while. In the constitutional changes have to see

:03:47.:03:49.

what is fair and equitable, the same with the Barnett fallen -- formula.

:03:50.:03:54.

But what you have to do is get a fair system. It takes time to

:03:55.:03:58.

discuss it. I was doing a 32 years ago and nobody wanted to know. We

:03:59.:04:02.

had better start a debate, and don't mixed up the constitutional type of

:04:03.:04:06.

English parliament with what we are promising in Scotland. It is about

:04:07.:04:12.

trust and politics. So the turnout of the north-east regional assembly

:04:13.:04:16.

and they voted against it. The turnout that the police and crime

:04:17.:04:21.

commissioners was low. How'd you get people interested in the process and

:04:22.:04:24.

it doesn't feel like a conversation in smoky rooms and you go back to

:04:25.:04:27.

British people and tell them what you decided? If you look at the

:04:28.:04:32.

turnout in Scotland whether they were interested in, now it is

:04:33.:04:36.

phenomenally interesting. It is about real power, having real

:04:37.:04:38.

influence. What they said to me in the north-east, they said we know

:04:39.:04:42.

you have an idea for devolution and you will give us assemblies but it

:04:43.:04:46.

doesn't have the power of Scotland, but now we are talking about

:04:47.:04:50.

equity, similar distribution of power and similar resources. The

:04:51.:04:53.

English people are entitled to that. They have been robbed of it for too

:04:54.:04:59.

long. Labour has long struggled with what it should do over devolving

:05:00.:05:02.

power to the regions and you came up with regional assemblies. Ed

:05:03.:05:06.

Miliband has a different idea of city regions. Aren't they the same

:05:07.:05:10.

idea of yours but without a democratic accountability? Can we

:05:11.:05:14.

really trust the greater region of Manchester or Birmingham to deliver

:05:15.:05:17.

if there is not the same kind of democratic link with the people? I

:05:18.:05:24.

live in whole, and it stops on the boundary of the Pennines -- the city

:05:25.:05:28.

of Hull. We have city regions from Labour because I failed in the

:05:29.:05:31.

north-east to get the assemblies in, and now we have to look at those

:05:32.:05:36.

options. Do you work through city regions? Mainly in the north, I

:05:37.:05:40.

might say. Even the federal structure they talk about my be in

:05:41.:05:43.

the North or Midlands with Birmingham, but there are a number

:05:44.:05:47.

of options and that is where I believe that what the White Paper

:05:48.:05:50.

should do is to put those options in. Instead of having to put them

:05:51.:05:55.

together, state what you want to do in the English regions. Leave it to

:05:56.:05:58.

the legislation, which is what will happen with the Scottish, and once

:05:59.:06:02.

you've agreed it, you do it after. You have to start the radical debate

:06:03.:06:07.

about giving the English regions, not centralised in London, but

:06:08.:06:12.

decentralised. Do you need to have a separate English parliament?

:06:13.:06:14.

Wouldn't it just satisfy the English if you simply said to MPs, when it's

:06:15.:06:20.

in English matter in the House of Commons, stop interfering? I would

:06:21.:06:24.

disagree with that. I would say put the option in the White Paper. The

:06:25.:06:29.

White Paper seems to be talking about Scotland. If you don't put the

:06:30.:06:32.

commitments to what you want to do with the English regions, people

:06:33.:06:37.

might say I'm not supporting that. Put the framework in the White

:06:38.:06:41.

Paper, but a different timetable. Devolution in this country has been

:06:42.:06:44.

to a different timetable, whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start

:06:45.:06:48.

looking fundamentally at it and the Labour Party should be leading the

:06:49.:06:56.

debate. Let's come the no campaign lost Glasgow. The cradle of British

:06:57.:07:00.

socialism. -- let's come to something that happened with the

:07:01.:07:03.

referendum as the no campaign lost Glasgow. Is it a sign that the

:07:04.:07:07.

Labour Party are finding it hard to what -- hold on to their traditional

:07:08.:07:13.

working class vote question mark its different in Manchester. They would

:07:14.:07:15.

say it is a message about decentralisation. If we change the

:07:16.:07:25.

message a bit maybe. We have been thinking that now it is that either

:07:26.:07:28.

the Labour Party to recognise it is not the old message and old areas

:07:29.:07:33.

that will win it. I remember covering the 1997 referendum in

:07:34.:07:37.

Scotland and you gave a tub thumping speech in a big hall in Hamilton and

:07:38.:07:41.

you really connected. Obviously it was a different referendum because

:07:42.:07:44.

that was about a parliament, not independence and Alex Salmond was on

:07:45.:07:49.

your side, but you, and Ingush MP, an English minister, connected to

:07:50.:07:53.

the core Labour voters in a way that Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an

:07:54.:08:01.

English MP. You make a fair point. In the big rally, I had to point out

:08:02.:08:06.

I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on with it. What I was saying there was

:08:07.:08:12.

that I supported you, as I did for 30 odd years when Labour MPs were

:08:13.:08:17.

against any thinker Scotland. I support you, but I expect you to

:08:18.:08:20.

come in with your Scottish MPs and make sure the English get their

:08:21.:08:24.

share of the powers and resources and that is what that speech was

:08:25.:08:28.

about, and by God, it's as relevant today as it was then. I haven't got

:08:29.:08:33.

any Scottish MPs, I live in Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote?

:08:34.:08:41.

No. What would you have done? I can't tell you. You would have voted

:08:42.:08:48.

yes, come on. I'm interested. What do you want to hear from the speech

:08:49.:08:55.

by Ed Miliband? People are wondering about where Labour stands. There are

:08:56.:09:00.

many issues we have flown around, and we've done the discussion just

:09:01.:09:06.

now. What he has got to do where he started off on the minimum wage. You

:09:07.:09:10.

are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That

:09:11.:09:14.

is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and

:09:15.:09:18.

we have to say it will be saved. If you can save all of these bankers

:09:19.:09:21.

with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS,

:09:22.:09:25.

say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I

:09:26.:09:30.

have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a

:09:31.:09:34.

deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy

:09:35.:09:39.

it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for

:09:40.:09:44.

up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy

:09:45.:09:47.

the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not

:09:48.:09:51.

listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in

:09:52.:09:54.

three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling

:09:55.:09:59.

them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want

:10:00.:10:04.

commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing,

:10:05.:10:09.

health, the people. That is our language. That is why we are Labour.

:10:10.:10:14.

That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered

:10:15.:10:17.

about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know

:10:18.:10:21.

it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition.

:10:22.:10:25.

I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe

:10:26.:10:30.

it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the

:10:31.:10:34.

polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We

:10:35.:10:41.

haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to

:10:42.:10:45.

repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is

:10:46.:10:50.

quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying

:10:51.:10:54.

to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given

:10:55.:11:00.

2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the

:11:01.:11:03.

next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the

:11:04.:11:10.

proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when

:11:11.:11:15.

we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and

:11:16.:11:19.

that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys

:11:20.:11:26.

run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under

:11:27.:11:30.

Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is

:11:31.:11:36.

still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems,

:11:37.:11:40.

but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible

:11:41.:11:44.

discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about

:11:45.:11:47.

finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We

:11:48.:11:52.

need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell

:11:53.:11:55.

me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting

:11:56.:11:59.

screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown

:12:00.:12:02.

coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did

:12:03.:12:09.

a poll of the Labour candidates, you were watching on the big screen,

:12:10.:12:14.

when it came up that their favourite to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette

:12:15.:12:20.

Cooper, why did you shout no! That is alive. -- alive. -- that is not

:12:21.:12:28.

true. I know resistance is not strong. What did that mean?

:12:29.:12:38.

You can't get away with anything at a Conference, John. I was dropping

:12:39.:12:47.

comments them to pick up everywhere, I do not wear -- nowhere they got

:12:48.:12:53.

that one from. Good to have you back. Round of applause for former

:12:54.:12:59.

Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for today. Don't applaud them, they are

:13:00.:13:00.

useless. my guests. I'll be back here at

:13:01.:13:02.

Labour conference for the Daily 11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring

:13:03.:13:07.

you live coverage of the speech by We're here all week, and next Sunday

:13:08.:13:11.

you can find us in Birmingham for Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:12.:13:17.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:18.:13:24.

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