Browse content similar to 08/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Four years ago, this man told Taro Naw... | 0:00:03 | 0:00:06 | |
..he had been falsely prosecuted by one of Britain's main institutions. | 0:00:07 | 0:00:11 | |
He spent three years in prison. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:13 | |
If I'd taken that money, I'd have had a better life than I've had. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:17 | |
But I can tell you now, hand on heart, I didn't take it. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:21 | |
This led to a Taro Naw investigation which revealed... | 0:00:21 | 0:00:25 | |
..that there have been dozens of similar cases across Britain. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
Tonight: Evidence and new cases... | 0:00:29 | 0:00:31 | |
..and the story about how one man took his campaign... | 0:00:31 | 0:00:34 | |
..to the corridors of power. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:36 | |
The institution that prosecuted him has now changed its views. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:40 | |
It's a disgrace. Not only my case, but these other people too. | 0:00:40 | 0:00:44 | |
We can reveal tonight that the strain caused one of those people... | 0:00:44 | 0:00:48 | |
..to try and kill himself a fortnight ago. | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
Noel Thomas has devoted much of his life to the Post Office. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:24 | |
He spent 40 years serving the public and says it was a pleasure. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:29 | |
It gave me a great deal of pleasure, to be honest. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
You got the chance to discuss everything. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
You got to hear local stories and funny stories... | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
..whether you wanted to or not! | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
He was a postman before becoming a subpostmaster... | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
..and a local councillor for the village of Gaerwen on Anglesey. | 0:01:46 | 0:01:50 | |
It was a pleasure to represent Gaerwen. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
I hope I fought hard for Gaerwen at all times. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
It was a pleasure to be on Anglesey Council. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:01 | |
But the last few years have been hard. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:04 | |
He lost his job and as a result... | 0:02:04 | 0:02:06 | |
..the old post office he used to run has closed. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:10 | |
His world fell apart when his employer prosecuted him... | 0:02:12 | 0:02:16 | |
..claiming that £48,000 was missing from his post office. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:19 | |
Overnight, he went from being a highly respected councillor... | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
..to being a criminal locked up in prison. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:28 | |
The family was left behind to face the problem. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:31 | |
They had to face people and it was difficult. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:35 | |
To be honest, my wife found it very difficult to deal with. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:40 | |
But I had family and friends and we got through it. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:46 | |
From the very beginning, he's insisted... | 0:02:47 | 0:02:50 | |
..that the Post Office's Horizon computer system was responsible... | 0:02:50 | 0:02:54 | |
..for the inconsistencies. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:56 | |
Fujitsu designed the system and it was introduced... | 0:02:56 | 0:02:59 | |
..to British post offices from 1995 onwards. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:03 | |
It arrived in Gaerwen in the year 2000. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:06 | |
By 2005, there was a problem. | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
Losing money and losing money. | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
And we didn't know where it was going. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
You'd lose between £2,000 and £3,000 a month. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:20 | |
It would just disappear from the account? | 0:03:20 | 0:03:22 | |
Yes. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:24 | |
He phoned the Post Office helpline time and time again... | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
..and was told not to worry... | 0:03:28 | 0:03:30 | |
..and that everything would settle in time. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
He felt he had to sign that the balance was correct... | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
..at the end of every day... | 0:03:36 | 0:03:38 | |
..or he wouldn't be able to open the shop the following day. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:42 | |
The problems continued and in the end... | 0:03:44 | 0:03:46 | |
..the accountants came in. | 0:03:46 | 0:03:48 | |
He was charged with stealing £48,000. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
He was also charged with false accounting... | 0:03:51 | 0:03:53 | |
..on the basis that he agreed that the accounts were correct... | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
..when they weren't. | 0:03:57 | 0:03:59 | |
In court, the Post Office dropped the charge of theft... | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
..but on legal advice, Noel Thomas pleaded guilty to false accounting. | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
He spent three months in prison and was declared bankrupt. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:11 | |
The biggest mistake I made was signing the papers. | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
If I hadn't, I would not have been charged with false accountancy. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
If I'd have closed the shop, it would have been better. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:22 | |
We all had to try and carry on. | 0:04:22 | 0:04:24 | |
But we didn't want to carry on because we knew where he was. | 0:04:24 | 0:04:29 | |
And it was... It was... Sorry. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
It was a difficult job, to be honest with you... | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
..because we knew he wasn't supposed to be there. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:40 | |
They didn't realise at the time that others had been through... | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
..the same thing until a letter arrived from England. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
Oh, wow! It was an incredible feeling. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:53 | |
We were all sitting around a table here, going... | 0:04:53 | 0:04:57 | |
.."Oh, my gosh! We're not the only ones going through this. | 0:04:57 | 0:05:01 | |
"There are others going through it." | 0:05:01 | 0:05:03 | |
That's when Taro Naw started investigating further... | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
..and discovered that there was a pattern. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:11 | |
Other people's lives had been destroyed... | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
..and cases went back over a decade. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
Subpostmasters who'd been prosecuted... | 0:05:17 | 0:05:19 | |
..for keeping false accounts under the exact same circumstances. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
We talked to dozens across Britain who'd been made bankrupt... | 0:05:25 | 0:05:29 | |
..who'd lost their homes and were suffering from depression.. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
..and they all thought they were alone. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:36 | |
The system itself didn't seem to be working as it normally would work. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:40 | |
We kept getting screens that would freeze and various other things. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:45 | |
We made substantial calls to the Horizon helpline. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
They know, I'm absolutely certain, they know how flawed the system is. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:53 | |
They'll do anything to keep a lid on it... | 0:05:53 | 0:05:56 | |
..regardless of how many lives they ruin along the way. | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
Hello. I'm Jo. | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
How are you? | 0:06:01 | 0:06:02 | |
Noel Thomas and his daughter travelled to Hampshire... | 0:06:02 | 0:06:06 | |
..to meet one of them. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:08 | |
I didn't have any confidence in the helpdesk. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
I didn't really know where to turn for help. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
Although I knew the monies weren't there... | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
..I knew I hadn't taken them. | 0:06:17 | 0:06:19 | |
You couldn't open up the next day unless you agreed the figures... | 0:06:19 | 0:06:23 | |
..which I then did. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:25 | |
I paid the price for it eventually. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:28 | |
She was also found guilty of keeping false accounts... | 0:06:30 | 0:06:34 | |
..after £36,000 disappeared from the system. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
We are only scratching the surface. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:40 | |
It's happened everywhere across the country, hasn't it? | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
This man wrote to Noel Thomas a month earlier... | 0:06:44 | 0:06:48 | |
..after doing further research into the case of the subpostmaster... | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
..in his village. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:54 | |
I found a whole lot of people, very similar to Jo. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
Middle-aged, middle-class, never put a foot wrong. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:02 | |
Perfect characters. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:03 | |
Often had been subpostmasters for a long time. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
All of whom suddenly turned into these criminals. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
It didn't make sense to me. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:13 | |
By the time the original programme was broadcast... | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
..we'd spoken with 31 subpostmasters who said the same. | 0:07:16 | 0:07:21 | |
And the politicians were starting to respond. | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
There's something going on... | 0:07:25 | 0:07:27 | |
..and the Post Office has to answer the questions... | 0:07:28 | 0:07:31 | |
..being asked by these people. | 0:07:31 | 0:07:33 | |
But the Post Office denied that there was anything wrong... | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
..and claimed the Horizon system was dependable. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
It refused to be interviewed four years ago... | 0:07:41 | 0:07:45 | |
..but in the meantime, the battle for justice intensified. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:49 | |
People saw, not in the village, but people we knew on Anglesey... | 0:07:52 | 0:07:57 | |
..the map you showed and there were so many people on that... | 0:07:57 | 0:08:02 | |
..who had had the same problem... | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
..and it wasn't just them who were frightened. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
We'd found a few but it was an eye-opener. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:13 | |
That started driving us forward even more. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
After years of trying to persuade people he was innocent... | 0:08:17 | 0:08:21 | |
..her father felt hopeful once more. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:24 | |
It raised my spirits and the family's spirits, to be honest. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
And the friends who stood by me through the trouble. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:33 | |
There were responses from subpostmasters across Britain... | 0:08:35 | 0:08:39 | |
..that we didn't know about before the programme. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:43 | |
Each one was glad the story had been made public... | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
..and had believed they were the only ones in trouble. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
They contacted each other and slowly, more evidence emerged... | 0:08:49 | 0:08:55 | |
..and more stories about lives that had been destroyed. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
And we received these - evidence in black and white. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
Something that's very rare because once the Post Office... | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
..arrests someone, it claims all the paperwork. | 0:09:07 | 0:09:10 | |
These are receipts from a post office in South Wales... | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
..and according to the subpostmaster who sent them... | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
..to us, they prove that there's something wrong with Horizon. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:22 | |
Inconsistencies emerged after a customer paid to send a parcel... | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
..from a post office in Carmarthenshire in August 2009. | 0:09:27 | 0:09:30 | |
Notice the time. 10.52am. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:34 | |
Every payment has its own number. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:38 | |
There's a black circle around the number in this case... | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
..on the customer's receipt. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
The customer paid £9.31 and the parcel label shows the date... | 0:09:44 | 0:09:50 | |
..how much was paid and once again, the unique number for the payment. | 0:09:50 | 0:09:56 | |
However, that's not on the records of the subpostmaster. | 0:09:56 | 0:10:00 | |
They go from a payment just before 10.45am.. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
..straight to the next at 10.59am. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
There's no record of a payment at 10.52am. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:11 | |
So there would be £9.31 too much in the till at the end of the day... | 0:10:11 | 0:10:15 | |
..and nothing to show where it came from. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:20 | |
It appears that the system can delete records of payments. | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
According to subpostmasters, deficiencies like this... | 0:10:23 | 0:10:27 | |
..could have led to losses of thousands of pounds. | 0:10:27 | 0:10:30 | |
After realising that so many were saying the same thing... | 0:10:31 | 0:10:34 | |
..the subpostmasters established a campaign group... | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
..in order to get justice - Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance. | 0:10:38 | 0:10:42 | |
During the last four years, they've been meeting regularly... | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
..and they've now persuaded the Post Office to listen to them. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:50 | |
Julien, how are you? | 0:10:51 | 0:10:52 | |
This man is a prominent member of the JFSA. | 0:10:53 | 0:10:56 | |
He's a former postmaster from Redditch in the Midlands. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
He contacted Taro Naw after seeing the original programme. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
I was told I was the only one. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
Then when your first programme highlighted the issue... | 0:11:07 | 0:11:12 | |
..I discovered I wasn't alone. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:14 | |
There were other people in the same situation as I was. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
We decided we would create... | 0:11:18 | 0:11:19 | |
..the Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance... | 0:11:20 | 0:11:23 | |
..because, individually, you cannot fight Post Office. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:29 | |
He went through the courts and lost his livelihood. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
Things that could not be explained... | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
..were happening with the Horizon system. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
The last thing I did on the Saturday... | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
..before closing the post office was count the cash... | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
..declare it on the system, you push a button... | 0:11:46 | 0:11:50 | |
..and that prints you off a receipt and tells you what you've declared. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
And you put that in with your weekly paperwork... | 0:11:54 | 0:11:58 | |
..ready for the balance the coming Wednesday. | 0:11:58 | 0:12:01 | |
On the Monday, I go into the post office, switch the system on... | 0:12:01 | 0:12:06 | |
..print that report off, having done no transactions on it... | 0:12:08 | 0:12:13 | |
..and it was different to what I'd prepared on the Saturday. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:19 | |
This continued. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:22 | |
There were imbalances most weeks... | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
..which is quite acceptable, but they started to get bigger. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:30 | |
I raised this question with my line manager... | 0:12:31 | 0:12:35 | |
..who visited on a regular basis. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
He said, "Don't worry about it. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:41 | |
"The system will put itself right." | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
In the end, the Post Office prosecuted him... | 0:12:46 | 0:12:49 | |
..and like Noel Thomas, he pleaded guilty to keeping false accounts. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
He had to pay the Post Office almost £30,000... | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
..and complete 200 hours of community service. | 0:12:57 | 0:13:00 | |
The Post Office hasn't backed down. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
A subpostmistress on Anglesey has also been prosecuted. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:10 | |
She's contacted the JFSA. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:12 | |
There's one down the road from here, to be honest. | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
My heart goes out to her. | 0:13:15 | 0:13:18 | |
She's lost everything as well. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:22 | |
Taro Naw has talked to Lorraine Williams from Llanddaniel. | 0:13:23 | 0:13:27 | |
She couldn't be interviewed because she is still on probation. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
However, there's a sign that things could change... | 0:13:34 | 0:13:38 | |
..and what started as one man's lonely battle has snowballed. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:43 | |
Following Taro Naw's investigation, pressure from the JFSA... | 0:13:43 | 0:13:47 | |
..support from MPs and wider attention in the media... | 0:13:48 | 0:13:51 | |
..the 31 subpostmasters we found in 2009... | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
..has now multiplied to almost 200... | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
..and Taro Naw is still discovering new cases. | 0:13:58 | 0:14:02 | |
Up until now I thought I was the only idiot... | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
..who'd put himself in a situation to lose so much money. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:10 | |
After years of denying anything was wrong with the system... | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
..the Post Office had to make a dramatic statement over the summer. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:19 | |
Someone, somewhere knows something's not right. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:24 | |
They've sent people like me to jail. | 0:14:41 | 0:14:45 | |
They've taken all our livelihoods. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
But other people, they've destroyed their lives... | 0:14:48 | 0:14:53 | |
..and in my mind that's much worse than going to jail. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
Noel Thomas is one of several subpostmasters... | 0:14:58 | 0:15:00 | |
..who've been prosecuted by the Post Office... | 0:15:01 | 0:15:03 | |
..on charges of stealing or false accounting. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
He says he was wrongly jailed and he's battling to save... | 0:15:06 | 0:15:10 | |
..his good name. | 0:15:10 | 0:15:11 | |
A difficult time was returning to his community after leaving jail. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
That first step out of the door... | 0:15:16 | 0:15:18 | |
..and saying that first 'hello' or 'how are you?' to people. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
Were you going to get a 'hello' in response or would... | 0:15:23 | 0:15:27 | |
..somebody turn their back? | 0:15:28 | 0:15:30 | |
What was the lowest point while you were in prison? | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
Arriving in Walton, I think. | 0:15:34 | 0:15:38 | |
He was in his cell for 23 hours a day. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
The time dragged terribly there. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:45 | |
There were very few people of my age in prison. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
The majority were young people. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:51 | |
Ordinary people. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:53 | |
And they could be pretty rough. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
How much of a support has your family been to you? | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
A huge support. | 0:15:59 | 0:16:01 | |
The children... | 0:16:02 | 0:16:04 | |
..my sister-in-law... | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
..my wife's cousins. They've all been very good. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
Earlier this year, the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance... | 0:16:14 | 0:16:19 | |
..persuaded the Post Office to employ Second Sight... | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
..a forensic accounting company, to investigate their claims. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:26 | |
47 former subpostmasters presented their cases to the company. | 0:16:26 | 0:16:29 | |
This was a turning point in their case for justice. | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
This is the first independent investigation to be held. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. | 0:16:36 | 0:16:38 | |
Yesterday evening, an interim report into alleged problems... | 0:16:38 | 0:16:42 | |
..with the Post Office Horizon computer system was published. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
The report gave some unexpected news. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:49 | |
After investigating four of the 47 cases... | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
...up until now, they haven't found any systemic problems with Horizon. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:57 | |
But they have come across two defects that led to problems... | 0:16:57 | 0:17:02 | |
..in 76 post offices. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
It became clear that the Post Office was aware of the defects... | 0:17:04 | 0:17:08 | |
..before Second Sight began their investigation. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:12 | |
After years of denying anything was wrong with Horizon... | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
..the Post Office has adopted a different stance. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:18 | |
The very least Post Office Ltd should be doing... | 0:17:19 | 0:17:21 | |
..is setting up a legal fund to review each of these cases... | 0:17:22 | 0:17:25 | |
..because many will have pleaded guilty to false accounting... | 0:17:25 | 0:17:29 | |
..given the situation with the system and legal advice received. | 0:17:29 | 0:17:33 | |
I think the House is very concerned about ... | 0:17:34 | 0:17:36 | |
..a very small number of people who've had their lives ruined. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:41 | |
It's no good to say, "Oh, they can appeal." | 0:17:41 | 0:17:43 | |
We need proactive action from the Government. | 0:17:44 | 0:17:47 | |
I suggest she talks to the Attorney General to see... | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
..if he can look into these cases. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
That's what you want. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:53 | |
We're halfway there. | 0:17:54 | 0:17:55 | |
We'll see what happens. | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
The report also found the Post Office hadn't done enough... | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
..to help the subpostmasters. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
As it can prosecute without contacting the police or CPS... | 0:18:05 | 0:18:09 | |
..their accountants concentrated on getting the money back... | 0:18:10 | 0:18:13 | |
..and prosecuting than tackling the real problem. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:16 | |
The Post Office are only one of two organizations... | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
..that I know of that can take people to court... | 0:18:20 | 0:18:24 | |
..without using the Crown Prosecution Service. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:29 | |
If the majority of these cases, I'm sure, were presented to the CPS... | 0:18:29 | 0:18:34 | |
..they would throw them out. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:37 | |
Post Office are unable to supply the evidence... | 0:18:37 | 0:18:41 | |
..to back up their prosecution. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:44 | |
The Post Office has admitted that software defects have affected... | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
..a computer system that's been the cause of a prolonged dispute... | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
..with some of its subpostmasters. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:58 | |
I fell asleep in front of the TV recently. | 0:18:58 | 0:19:02 | |
Suddenly I woke up and there was something on the news... | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
..saying others were in the same hole I'd been in. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
This man from Mid Wales knew nothing about the other cases... | 0:19:09 | 0:19:13 | |
..until this summer. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:15 | |
Although he wants to remain anonymous, his story is familiar. | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
When he realized the system said £17,000 was missing... | 0:19:19 | 0:19:24 | |
..he called the accountants and the police immediately. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:27 | |
The auditors looked at me threateningly... | 0:19:28 | 0:19:30 | |
..as if I'd committed a crime. | 0:19:30 | 0:19:32 | |
They weren't interested in finding out if anything was wrong... | 0:19:32 | 0:19:36 | |
..with the computer, or offer me any help. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
The bottom line was, nobody from the Post Office believed... | 0:19:39 | 0:19:42 | |
..the system could be wrong. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:45 | |
The blame was placed squarely on the subpostmaster. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
In order to avoid going to court he gave the Post Office £17,000... | 0:19:48 | 0:19:53 | |
..of his life savings, closed the shop... | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
..and never worked for them again. | 0:19:56 | 0:19:58 | |
But a month ago, after contacting us, he made another discovery... | 0:19:58 | 0:20:02 | |
..that surprised him. | 0:20:02 | 0:20:04 | |
I've found out that the person who'd been there before me... | 0:20:04 | 0:20:08 | |
..had lost almost the same amount and the Post Office knew about it. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:12 | |
She'd had to repay it. There's a pattern here. | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
If you'd signed off that the accounts were right... | 0:20:15 | 0:20:19 | |
..you'd be in trouble. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
I'd be in jail. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:23 | |
The Post Office would have been happy to say... | 0:20:23 | 0:20:26 | |
..fraud and false accounting. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:28 | |
You can't sign something's right if it isn't right. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
Second Sight will present a further report to Parliament... | 0:20:33 | 0:20:37 | |
..during the next few weeks. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:39 | |
Meanwhile, a mediation panel... | 0:20:40 | 0:20:42 | |
..will consider every individual case. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:45 | |
The mediation panel has been set up by JFSA... | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
..Second Sight, who are the forensic accountants... | 0:20:50 | 0:20:54 | |
..doing the investigation on behalf of Post Office... | 0:20:54 | 0:20:57 | |
..our forensic accountant, the MPs and Post Office. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:03 | |
How that will work is... | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
..that all of us that are involved in this process... | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
..will have to apply to this working party... | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
..for our case to be registered with them. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
This isn't the end of it. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:19 | |
There's quite a long way to go yet. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:22 | |
But we're hopeful. One step at a time. | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
This is the biggest hope for justice and compensation. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:29 | |
Noel Thomas has brought his mediation pack... | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
..to solicitor, Eilian Williams, to ensure he's filled it in properly. | 0:21:32 | 0:21:36 | |
Because the Post Office has offered you... | 0:21:37 | 0:21:39 | |
..this type of review... | 0:21:40 | 0:21:43 | |
..you haven't got much to lose. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:45 | |
The closing date to present your case before the panel... | 0:21:46 | 0:21:50 | |
..is 18th November. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:52 | |
Taro 9 understands that nearly 200 subpostmasters... | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
..have applied for a pack. | 0:21:56 | 0:21:57 | |
From the nature of the document... | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
..there is a promise made by the Post Office... | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
..to try and talk to those affected... | 0:22:03 | 0:22:06 | |
..to respond to their complaints in a clear manner. | 0:22:06 | 0:22:10 | |
But it's clear they're avoiding the legal wrangling... | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
..that could arise following the accusations and suggestions... | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
..the system is defective. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:19 | |
The David and Goliath battle is timeless. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
One subpostmaster who's facing prosecution attempted suicide... | 0:22:23 | 0:22:27 | |
..two weeks ago. | 0:22:27 | 0:22:29 | |
I've had an email from the subpostmaster's family about this.. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
..awful incident. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:36 | |
And I know how deep the anguish is... | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
..that has been caused to a lot of subpostmasters across the country.. | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
..by what's happened in many of these case. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
Although he welcomes the Post Office's commitment... | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
..into further investigations, he is disappointed... | 0:22:51 | 0:22:55 | |
..with some of the findings in Second Sight's report. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
The Post Office did know there were bugs in the system... | 0:22:58 | 0:23:01 | |
..and I was very surprised to hear they knew that... | 0:23:02 | 0:23:05 | |
..and hadn't told me that or told other MPs that. | 0:23:05 | 0:23:08 | |
One question still angers Noel Thomas. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:13 | |
If the postmasters hadn't been stealing, where's the money gone? | 0:23:13 | 0:23:17 | |
They don't know more than me where it's gone. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
I'd like to know where it's gone. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
Noel Thomas has been asking this for nearly a decade. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:28 | |
It's been four years since Taro 9 and MPs started asking the same. | 0:23:28 | 0:23:33 | |
We asked for an interview with the Post Office back in July... | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
..but like last time, they refused. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:40 | |
Then a few days ago they reconsidered... | 0:23:40 | 0:23:43 | |
..but it was too late for this programme. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:46 | |
They have responded to many questions raised by Taro 9. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:51 | |
They said they were continuing with about 50 prosecutions a year. | 0:23:51 | 0:23:56 | |
They say it's a small number of the 11,800... | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
..post office branches they have throughout Britain. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:03 | |
If there are any doubts any crime has been committed... | 0:24:03 | 0:24:08 | |
..they have a duty to prosecute. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
They added that an independent investigation had failed... | 0:24:11 | 0:24:14 | |
..to find any systemic defects with Horizon. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
They didn't mention they'd told investigators... | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
..there bugs in the system that affected branches. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
The Post Office stressed they had introduced further improvements... | 0:24:25 | 0:24:29 | |
..to their training programme and support... | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
..and they'd set up a mediation plan with the JFSA. | 0:24:32 | 0:24:36 | |
What I'd like, more than anything, is to get the money back... | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
..and for them to admit they're wrong, for them to apologize. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
That's what I'd like. | 0:24:44 | 0:24:45 | |
Firstly, we want our names cleared. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:49 | |
Because we actually didn't do anything wrong. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
We've not stolen a penny from Post Office. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
Two - we all want our lives back. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:02 | |
Because over the last five years, in my case... | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
..the affect the actions Post Office have taken on us... | 0:25:05 | 0:25:10 | |
..has been horrendous. | 0:25:10 | 0:25:12 | |
Absolutely horrendous. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
Finally, we want recognition of what has happened to us... | 0:25:16 | 0:25:22 | |
..by Post Office. | 0:25:22 | 0:25:24 | |
And that can only be achieved... | 0:25:24 | 0:25:26 | |
..by means of a financial settlement. | 0:25:27 | 0:25:30 | |
We are all, one million per cent, behind my father. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
Not one us turned around, even for a second... | 0:25:33 | 0:25:37 | |
..to say he's guilty. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:39 | |
He is no longer a voice in the wilderness. | 0:25:40 | 0:25:43 | |
Noel Thomas is one of dozens who want more than money. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:47 | |
Why are you still fighting? | 0:25:47 | 0:25:50 | |
My self-respect. | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
To retain my good name, hopefully. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:56 | |
We're halfway there. | 0:25:56 | 0:25:58 | |
S4C subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 0:26:19 | 0:26:22 | |
. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:22 |