26/02/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning, and welcome. Now, Good morning, and welcome. Now,

politics is a rough old game, but this weekend I read one verdict on

political infighting that somewhat startled me. It goes like this:

you hauled fighting rum, a caravan of harlots

and a boxing tent into a mining town on pay Day, you would hardly predict

the level of crazed viciousness has broken out in what's left of the

heart of the Labour Party. Now, you are thinking: hold on a minute,

I can't quite see Ed Miliband Yvette Cooper with bottles of

don't worry. That was a description of life in the

Party. Joining me today for a review of the Sunday newspapers as we

reflect on the death of Marie Colvin, the journalist in Syria,

Kelvin MacKenzie and Kate Adie on the day of the launch of Sun on

Sunday, the former editor Currant Bun, Kelvin MacKenzie.

We should start by talking about Syria. People trying to get medicine

to injured journalists in Homs have been found dead. Is there anything

now that the so-called international community can actually do? The

International Development Andrew Mitchell joins us

about all of that and the latest news about the wounded British

photographer who is trapped in Homs. Closer to home, what class of folk

get the worst kicking in this country, still ahead of journalists

and estate agents even, it must be bankers, the people whose salaries

and bonuses promote incredulity and anger in equal measure. I have

speaking to one of the most controversial bankers, though he

decided to say no to his bonus, asking Stephen Hester, the chief

executive of RBS, why his profession is so fixated by huge

rewards. The actress, illegal

The actress, The actress, actress Celia Imrie,

has won countless awards. Now she is starring

Victoria Hospital, one of the funniest things you can see on stage

- at the Old Vic Theatre. Plus music coming up from a

remarkable new talent. It's the American opera

American opera singer from Harlem by the name of Noah. First to

desk. Good morning, Syrian also vote later

on a new constitution, despite continuing violence across

country. The government has drafted the proposals in an attempt to calm

the uprising against the regime President Assad will still

total control. It has already been rejected by opposition groups.

Soldiers from the Free Syrian Army Soldiers from the Free Syrian Army

fighting government forces in Homs. Human rights groups say at least

people have died in the violence. Although the figures can't

be independently verified. Despite this chaos, the authorities are

pressing ahead with the day's referendum.

State television has been urging State television has been urging

Syrians to vote, and preparations are being made for at least

polling stations to cope possibly more than

voters. It's supposed to be the centrepiece of the reform process,

proposed by President Assad in response to the uprising. But the

opposition have dismissed it as farce and called for a boycott. It's

not safe to leave your home, let alone that it would be a shame for

the Syrian people to be considered as idiots again. We have stopped

this. We no longer want to vote an illegitimate constitution that

was written by country. And how do you

referendum here? In many parts of the country, the whole process seems

A new animal virus that causes A new animal virus that causes

A new animal virus that causes miscarriages and birth defects in

miscarriages and birth defects in miscarriages and birth defects in

A new animal livestock has been found in 74 farms

in England. The Schmallenberg virus has mostly been found in sheep

although it also affected a small number of cattle. Defra says the

disease has probably been carried from Germany and the Netherlands

infected midges. Humans are to be unaffected by it.

The Pentagon has called the killing The Pentagon has called the killing

of two NATO officials in Kabul unaccept many. The Taliban says it

carried out the shootings in retaliation for American soldiers

burning copies of the week. Civilian staff are being

pulled out of the city. The first edition of the Sun on

Sunday has gone on sale. Rupert Murdoch went to see it at the

printing presses. The World was shut down last year amid

claims of widespread phone hacking. Tonight is the 84th annual Academy

Awards. Martin Scorsese's Hugo has 11 nominations, closely followed

The Artist which is up for ten. Brits up for gongs include Gary

Oldman and Kenneth Branagh; Christopher Plummer has also been

nominated for best supporting role in the film Beginners where he plays

a gay widower. If he wins he will become the oldest acting winner ever

at 82. I will be back just before 10.00 with the headlines.

Many thanks. To the front pages as Many thanks. To the front pages as

usual. It's the battle of tabloids this morning. There is The

Sun again, an Amanda Holden exclusive "My heart stopped for 40

seconds." 50p it says, very boldly, there. The People, 50p. Very boldly.

A story about a stoke. A story Charles and Camilla. The

Mirror doesn't say 50p because it costs a pound. Kerry to wed. MP

headbutted me on the nose, that's about the story in the House of

Commons bar which is now being investigated by the police so all

details there allegedly. Sunday Telegraph has got that interesting

story about the mystery killing thousands of lambs. It

in the continent and now it has spread to Britain too. Labour's

failing leadership by Charles who has scrubbed up well, you can

see, since he left the frontbench. The Observer: UK leading the dash

for oil in Somalia. And the Times, let's have a look,

that was, of course, the newspaper that Marie Colvin worked for, so not

a surprise to see such a lot about that and about the journalist, the

photographer Paul Conroy who is injured and still stuck in Homs.

will be talking about his situation later. Kelvin MacKenzie and Kate

Adie, thank you both very much joining us. Kate Adie,

in some pretty dire and places yourself over the

to us about the Marie coverage. An enormous amount this

weekend. In the broadsheets. shall in the tabloids.

known, she was a very journalist, she wasn't

name to a lot of people but even so within journalism she mattered

tremendously because she was one of these people who was prepared to go

in, stay in, tell it like it was. One of the difficult things,

think, in the aftermath, and there is a great deal in obviously

Sunday Times about this, is that how much importance do you actually

attach to this in the story of Syria. Mmm. A number of papers have

run headlines this weekend saying: Syria is targeting journalists. She

was a very brave reporter but there is a danger of us spending our

entire time talking about reporters, rather than about what they are

there to report. And someone - when I have been asked to define what is

it like when you go there, you say: you are a foreigner who often

doesn't understand the language, going into other people's rows.

Therefore, you are hardly a welcome person often, even to the people you

are among. You are more of a nosey parker, someone looking at our

misery as well, so it is a difficult position and your significance is

really seen at home, not in the countries you are in. Kelvin

MacKenzie, you've picked up a story from The Observer I think which

another light on this, as well? I think there are two

of all the story in the Observer points out that Syria actually

targeted journalists because they view them as the enemy, to start

with. If, for instance, like Marie Colvin, she is giving TV

a couple of days beforehand and I think a day before on the Today

programme, then you don't have to be a geek spy genius to work out

those signals are coming from. What's increasingly happening,

only in Syria but around the world, is that journalists are becoming

targets. One other aspect about this is about war reporting generally.

This lady was whopping literally as shells were being - was reporting

literally as shells were falling and she was in the middle of a red hot

battle. My question is: why there at all? It was too dangerous

for anybody to be there. People were dying all over the play, so why was

she there when you could have a smartphone, given a smartphone or

laptop given to the besieged people of Homs and they can fire out the

video pictures, and the video pictures are more powerful than the

written word, and that lady would not be dead today. I think there is

a competitive factor by desks in TV organisations,

- Pushing their people into places they shouldn't be? Saying we must

get our people right in the middle of it. One point about this is

of the reasons you send your own reporter is that you can verify and

trust what they say. footage which recently came out of

Syria was found to have been lifted from Bosnia 20 years ago.

the kind of thing you've got. Then you need better research. People

dying in increasing numbers and that lady's death could have been

avoided. Nobody goes to get killed. You make a risk assessment all

time and she was very good at it. Very good at it. When you go into

dangerous places, do discard the notion that you might be

killed yourself? Good God, no. You are thinking about it all the time?

You realise that you are less prepared, not knowing the

ground so well, you don't have any you are not protected by anything.

You actually in some ways are more vulnerable because of your ignorance

and with some people a lack experience. So yes, you are

conscious of it, and you go as far as you can. I think the bottom line,

and I talked to Marie years ago about this, is that you go

you can in order to get back. Isn't the truth about

matter that the word "press", which might have saved you 20 years ago is

actually now going to attract bullets and shells? Because what is

causing trouble for Assad is the coverage. Yes. His father

had the coverage. The warlords have realised now the power of the mass

media with their own people and internationally. It took several

years for the penny to drop, particularly with I think television

30, 40 years ago, that this could actually influence opinion. They

all know that. So obviously there is increased hostility and dislike of

this, but at the same time you to remember, if you don't go in

there, they will manipulate and their own pictures out. You will

get the story. Hold on a second, the BBC cover Homs

right? If, for instance, The Times The Times covers Homs from 20 miles

south. That doesn't mean they don't have good coverage. Some think we

should be there, but let's move on to The Sun. As I understand it, only

a week ago, Kelvin MacKenzie Kelvin MacKenzie - Rupert Murdoch

and not Kelvin MacKenzie - I would like to be Rupert Murdoch, I must be

honest. People said how quickly can you produce a Sun on Sunday, how is

it going? He said here are some dummies, do it next week. And this

is what they've come up have been working very fast to

produce this paper. I think it's triumph for the editor, who is now a

seven-day editor. It was bad enough being a six-day editor. It was a

triumph for him and his staff for instance I know that all the

staff all had to just come in on Saturdays and produce it, so all the

contracts, all the writers they had to get, they just had to throw

everything and the kitchen sink at it. It reads very much like a Sun

on Wednesday or Thursday or or any other day of the week?

think that's true. I think this is not trying to be the News of the

World with The Sun logo on it, that's for sure. Now, personally I

like sleaze on Sunday, I will be truthful, so I feel slightly robbed,

but that's not the call for me. There is a real problem with

tabloids at the moment because they are being well-behaved. Yes.

sort of feel they have to be of the Leveson Inquiry, so what do

they put in? It is preposterous, and I feel very sorry for being a

tabloid journalist today where the very things which they have been

doing very successfully for the last 30 or 40 years they are denied from

doing. I'm not saying - I'm not coming here to defend phone hacking,

I am here to defend paying public officials by the way. Because the

people who have been arrested - Sun journalists have been arrested

partly for that. I know. It's a disgrace, that. Do you think that

the police are simply overcompensating for their own past

misdemeanours? Yes, a very good point. Previously, instead of

investigating clearly wrongdoings the News of the World which has cost

loads of innocent people their jobs and loads of readers their

particularly enjoyable Sunday mornings, has now been replaced by

people wearing blue uniforms have some kind of new religion

they are now pursuing everything. My suspicion is that many of those Sun

journalists who have been arrested will never be charged with anything.

Hang on, there's one point about I was watching last

The Sun rolling off the presses, and if anybody bears some kind of

responsibility where the buck stops, it's the proprietor of News

International and there he was strutting his stuff in front of

presses with a new newspaper last night. Am I the only one who finds

that slightly odd? Probably. Thank you. No, the reality is we

Rupert Murdoch in this country. He is a massive force for employment, a

massive force for good and the of the matter is he is sitting

on the pile in New York or Los Angeles and he has local managements

to deal with everything. He cannot be held responsible for some nutcase

of a private investigator phone hacking innocent people's phones.

Is this Sun on Sunday going to sustain, is The Sun going to sustain

given the welter of attacks do you think? Well, the welter of

attacks haven't affected any of the circulation, be they advertising

revenues or anything, but it's definitely affected - taking your

point - it has definitely affected the courage and where the line is

you are a tabloid journalist. If you are a young tabloid journalist, you

are not going to take a risk anything and as well you know, Katy,

even laying down your life, you are prepared as a journalist to take

risk. I read The Sun this morning, looked at it, it just looked to me

like a natter. papers, what you would say over the

garden fence. There was nothing in it. What about other papers trying

to respond today? It's a laugh, isn't it? The

huge amount of circulation. I see the Star even hired Guido Fawkes.

Actually they've got more political stories in them than The Sun's got.

An interesting way of responding to that. Let's move on to another

story. This is, a lot of the papers are looking at what I am sure

going to be seen as a major in how life is run in this country

when you get private firms over what the state used to do.

There's - I think the best description of this, this Sunday, is

in the Observer who have a double page spread saying: welfare,

schools, prisons, higher education - this is after allegations made about

A4e, trying to get people into jobs, that big firm, Emma Harrison, the

multi-millionaire who was in charge of it, has resigned now. Nothing

wrong with being a multi-millionaire, you know. You

must stop that. You might know. The whole suggestion is that we are

shifting into saying to people: here is a possibility of running things

privately and of course you are going to make a profit, and there

doesn't appear to be the scrutiny you would expect. I suppose the

problem for the government is, if they think things were run badly in

the public sector in the past and therefore the answer is to have

run privately, people in the private sector are going to want to

profit? Has it never occurred to you that if things are run badly

improve things? Have you ever tried to improve anything run by trade

unions? It's very hard. Moving on, our agriculture

MacKenzie with the Sunday Telegraph. A lot of sadness about thousands of

lambs have been killed by a new virus threatening the survival of

British farms, and I agree it's terrible but for a lamb it's

much of a life anyway, gone within six months onto our dining table.

Is it hard to get a farming story onto the front page? At the Sun

apart from NATO I can't think of any story more likely not to sell

papers. Quickly this story about the scarf at the airport, a man

arrested for making a joke about head scarf? A man was wearing

scarf and he put it down in the as he put it through one of the

x-rays at the airport and he saw a Muslim woman with a head scarf go

through unimpeded. He said light heartedly, if I was wearing this in

front of my face I wonder what would happen. He was accused about racism

and held at the airport. This is about freedom of speech and I

it really matters. Can we make that nobody in this country makes

jokes, you certainly must not make jokes of that kind in this country

anymore. Thank you very much indeed for that. This has been a very

strange winter, hasn't it? Soaring temperatures a few days ago, a

or is there more to come? Let's find out from Chris Fawkes in the weather

Hello, you might get a sense of deja Hello, you might get a sense of deja

vu actually with more high temperatures to come. Finally we are

emerging from murky skies across Channel Islands. For Northern

Ireland, the northwest of and Scotland, it will stay

predominantly cloudy today and that cloud will be thick enough to give

us a few occasional spots of rain or drizzle, not amounting

too much and it will feel pleasant enough with light winds. Highs

reaching 12C, still on the side. Overnight it turns cloudier

with patchy rain across and west. Maybe some hill

patches as well. More general rain turning up in Western Scotland

towards the end of the night and exceptionally mild night. These

temperatures we expect daytime February . A cloudy start, general

rain settling Northern Ireland and this band of

heavier rain will then swing into northern England and North Wales

we go into the afternoon. will be a mild day and it gets even

milder with the peak of warmth coming on Tuesday when across

northeast England and Scotland temperatures could reach

or 18C, and that's not too far from the all-time UK

temperature record, so we've got more of that extremely warm

on the way across the northeast Tuesday. Back to you, Andrew.

Remarkable, thank you, Chris. The Remarkable, thank you, Chris. The

Royal Bank of Scotland. 83% owned by me, and by you, and by all of

other taxpayers, has been in spotlight again

announcement of its annual with losses of �2 billion. In RBS

terms that's actually quite a small figure. Its balance sheet was once

much bigger than the entire UK economy, so its crash was

spectacular and only a huge injection of public money saved

from becoming one of the biggest corporate failures in history.

RBS chief executive, Stephen Hester, has become one of the public faces

of banking in this country and when we met we discussed an

which many people now revile but first discussed his five-year plan

to clean up RBS. Effectively got two different jobs at RBS

wrapped up into one. The first job is to run a huge but normal bank

competing against Barclays, HSBC, serving 13 million customers,

pretty big job in and of itself, that's only one of our two jobs. The

other is to take what I described as the biggest time-bomb

ever put on a bank balance sheet and dismantle it safely, and to do that

whilst removing the danger to the British economy and to RBS itself.

In terms of removing the stuff you don't want, the gelignite from the

time-bomb, you've taken out bit more of it at this stage than

you thought you might have done? That is right. So actually across

both jobs the, the good bank where the government has �45 billion and

the bad bank where we are trying to defuse the time-bomb, we are

of where we thought we the end of three years. I am afraid

that also says that we started very deep hole that we are digging

out of because the job not finished and there's a kind of

Alice in Wonderland feel to Alice in Wonderland feel to

that ironically the faster we go the bigger the losses are, but you are

avoiding losses in the future would have come if you hadn't

dismantled it. What kind of bank would you like RBS to be at the end

of this process? I think you think it may take a little bit longer than

five years to get there now, would you want it to be what most

people watching would see as ordinary bank whose job was to give

mortgages to ordinary people and small businesses, and to lend money

to businesses and help them to money for other people? I want it to

be a really good ordinary bank. Yes. So it's got to start with

doing a great job for our customers. All businesses have to do

all businesses say that. We make sure we really do do it it and

then we have to be valuable because �45 billion is a lot of shares that

we have to persuade other investors to want to buy from the government.

So we have to make good profits as well. In terms of my 45 billion

that I have put into your bank, do you think my chances are of

getting all of that back? I that RBS will recover, we are well

on that route. And that there will in time be good opportunities for

the government to sell its shares and get the money back.

has been argued very Lord Myners and others that it would

be better for the government to accept a loss on that 45 billion and

start to move the shares off into the market.

the market, rather than carry on an endless process of great political

focus on this particular bank. Well, I certainly think that

sale of the government's shares take quite a few years and have to

happen in several different because the amount is simply

much to do in one go, and so it's natural that the first price at

which you sell will be lower the last price. Over time, each time

you sell, hopefully you will sell at higher prices and what obviously

matters is the average across the whole exercise rather than where you

started. So the first lot may a loss to start with? It's the

government's job to decide at what price they sell; it's my job to try

and create an investable out of RBS, that there are people

who actually might want to buy these shares. Yes. I do think that the

first sale by the government will increase the value of the rest of

the holding because investors, when they see that the government is

actually selling, when they see RBS - have more confidence. - is

again a private sector company being run in a way that investors will

want it to be run - I think that will give them confidence and help

the whole thing, and help RBS. do you think now about Fred Goodwin?

He created the time-bomb that you are defusing. And he must

share of accountability, but I also think that there is often

over-demonisation in British life in general, and I think that we

have to understand that the recession of 2008 was global, it was

caused by many mistakes in many sectors of the economy; in fact, by

economic mismanagement as well as by banking misment, and so there

many cooks in that particular kitchen and Fred is not

one. And yet there was this mood of swagger and hubris at the time in

the banking. There was a sort of madness in the system, wasn't there?

We could say the had some of that because we

we were expanding and we had abolished boom and bust and so forth

and it turned out not to be so, the same for banking. That's why

there are a series of changes that need to be made in

banks as well as of course financial reforms. Do you speak to

Goodwin about this? I haven't but I don't have anything against Fred.

Everybody else does. My job is to look forward. The investment side

of your business, bonuses went by roughly speaking a quarter, or

total remuneration went down by roughly speaking a quarter, but

their losses doubled. What bonus? Actually, profits went down,

so there was still 1.6 billion, they went down, and of course if profits

go down bonuses should go down, they did. But should there be any

bonuses if profits go down in most people's world a bonus is

something you get for extraordinary achievement. You have done something

very special. And it seems to an awful lot of people out there that

bonuses in the world of banking is something at a certain level you

simply for turning up? Throughout society, not just in banking - the

amounts of money I accept are in banking - people are paid

incentives. If you sell encyclopaedias, you might be paid

more if you sell more encyclopaedias, so there are pay

structures that are built up to have good people who will do the two jobs

we've got and then too pay you like, the rate for the job,

need to make sure there is a good linkage between success and pay,

I am determined to do that. You don't fear an anti-business,

anti-banking mood in the being picked up by politicians,

hitting highly paid people heavily enough that they don't come to the

City and they go to live and work New York or Geneva

instead? I do fear that. We've seen it in some of the controversies

around RBS. I think there is a real risk that this country forget that

job number one is to get the economy growing and only when we've done

that should we be squabbling how to divide up the

that growth. What about returning to politics the Vickers Commission's

proposals to break up banks? concerned about that?

to have a radical effect on the shape of banking in this country. I

would say two things about this. It was very clear in 2008,

course sitting on top of the biggest, if you like, exploding

bank, I see this particularly clearly, that banks needed

fundamental reform. The important thing is to make banks not

too big to fail, to stop the big to fail" worry and argument.

Vickers Commission, in a whole range of its proposals, contributes to

that positive direction. There are some things in the Vickers

Commission I don't agree with. I think don't contribute to the

argument and will make banks less valuable without increasing safety.

Such as? But the topic as a whole, the topic as a whole of making banks

safer, even if it costs banks money, is in society's interest

should do it. Robert Peston, who knows a thing or two about these

things, I understand, says that - his blog he said that in the end the

verdict on RBS at the moment is they are not going to bankrupt us again,

you know, that's good news, but we probably won't get back the full

value of the 45 billion that the taxpayer has put in. Well, Robert is

very wise and I will disagree him as to only 50%. I do think that

the taxpayer can get its money back, it will be longer and

had hoped - that's a function of economy being more difficult and new

taxes and new regulation, - but that's what we are focused on

and I think it's really for this country that we succeed.

You are obviously a tough fellow. you regret taking on this job, given

the huge public exposure it you under? I hate the public

exposure, I wish I wasn't sitting here talking to you or

I needed to, but instead I got where I did get in the business world,

you say, by being determined and I'm very clear there's a prize out here.

It's a prize for the it's also for me: recovering RBS.

At any point did you really about throwing in the towel? Sure,

lots of times. Did you go home and think: I can't take

this? Lots of disappointments in life and

difficulties. I don't set apart in some way. I have mine,

other people have their own. I have decided, at least as it relates to

this latest episode, the most constructive thing is to prove

critics wrong, help RBS to recover and I think that is to everyone's

gain. You have your towel are you going to see this through?

I hope so. Stephen Hester, you very much indeed.

Actress Celia Imrie is one of Actress Celia Imrie is one of

Britain's best-loved television and theatre actors. You will remember

her from Victoria Wood sketches as Acorn Antiques and she has been

regular success in London's West and she is heading that way again

next month in a splendid Old Vic revival of Michael Frayn's

theatrical comedy, Noises Off. Actress Celia Imrie is also starring

in a new Marigold Hotel, appearing

Judi Dench, Maggie Smith, Bill Nighy and many more. Once again, it's a

comedy with a message about ageing. Actress Celia Imrie, welcome.

you. Let's start talking about Michael Frayn play, which is a sort

of classic British farce been taken apart, and it looks at

what's going on in the lives of the actors performing the farce as well?

Yes. Well, it's brilliant because the play teaches you the rather -

this rather ropey farce called Nothing On, and it teaches you that

because you see us in rehearsal. Which is sort of trousers falling

down and - yes, don't people love people taking their trousers off?

They do. The noise when Carl's trousers fall down is just so

fantastic every single night, so see us in rehearsal, then you see us

in Act 2 backstage and all the shenanigans and by the third act you

know the play so well you can see the mistakes we are making all

way through. It is fast. It must be exhausting to

actually do. It is, except that your laughter refuels us. I promise

you, that really is true. It was hell to rehearse. Nobody will mind

me saying that, because it was sort of,

sort of, finnicerty. You have to be to the second all the way through.

Yes, and if you are not you are in terrible trouble from everyone else.

But an enormous well of laughter from the audience. Mmm.

think one of the most successful Vic plays ever in terms

transferring - Apparently, it's the first transfer apparently so I hope

Kevin Spacey is pleased with us. To hear the laughter is like heaven.

It is a tribute to the whole Brian Ricks tradition of farce which

filled theatres up and down this country for 30 years. Absolutely. I

remember them as a child actually, and it's the old joke, the joke of

three and the trousers falling down, and the slapstick. You can't

wrong actually. It's a brilliant play. They are plays which could be

tragedies except they are funny all the way through so it's all right.

They are about adultery and potential disaster but - Yes,

also the actors that are involved it - I mean, I'm of an age where I

want to put something by and buy little cottage. They are sort of on

their beam ends a bit, they are not top notch actors, it's all

tough for them so the situations are quite hard, which means that, you

know, the hilarity is better if there's some sort of rooting in

grimness too. It's a super play. Talking about great actors,

Talking about great actors, Exotic Marigold Hotel has virtually

every really famous British actor of a certain age you've ever heard of.

I know. We will see a clip second but beforehand, just

to us what the basic idea is. Really, it's an alternative to

staying in this country and growing old, and each of the seven

individual people find on the internet this hotel and think what a

marvellous idea, because is this it? They don't want England to be it,

let's take a chance and go to India. Let's have a look at a moment

How long have I waited for this How long have I waited for this

moment to present to you in honour of your arrival, a special

British roast for you all, cooked lovingly by myself and my

loyalist helper and friend. what? A wonderful taste of

Not everything goes according to Not everything goes according to

plan it should be said in but it's a kind of warm film,

it? In any case you go to India for an hour and a half and that,

honestly, is bliss. It is. What it like filming? You wrote not only

an autobiography but a diary of filming of it? I did. The heat was

excruciating but that was down bit and we had wonderful young

men helping us with umbrellas the minute we stepped out of the car. It

was like a dream,an rue. If somebody told me I had dreamt it I would have

to believe them. It was that good. How lovely. The serious theme is

we treat older people because people are still sexual and they've got

hope for the future and there's romance and optimism and stuff,

yet these are people who, in many cases, in this country their

families who are put into homes - I know, it's ghastly. I know I

will probably get into trouble and I know people do their very best in

old people's homes but to tell you the honest truth I've never been to

a nice one, not really. I know they try their best but it's very grim,

the whole idea of hold people's homes in this country, I think, and

so what a marvellous alternative, just leap and take the

- Because the truth is most will end up in one probably. What a

horrible thought, isn't it? we end up in an exotic hotel

somewhere in somewhere in Rajasthan. What

marvellous idea. Celia Imrie.

Back to Syria which is holding a referendum on a new constitution

today amid continuing violent unrest and a boycott by the opposition.

a moment I will be speaking International Development

International a moment I will be speaking to

Andrew Mitchell about the situation but first in Homs the Red Cross has

been try to correct more people trapped in - trying to help people

trapped. It also wants to recover the bodies of two journalists who

were killed last week. I spoke to Red Cross spokesman and asked him to

bring me up-to-date with going on. Yesterday and last night

unfortunately, although we have had - we had been negotiating

- we had been negotiating with the parties concerned, and that is

mainly the Syrian authorities and members of opposition inside Baba

Amr, to enter the neighbourhood and evacuate people, unfortunately these

negotiations did not come to positive conclusion and hence

were no evacuations last night. I can tell you is that the Syrian

Red Crescent are continuing to negotiate with both sides

will be continuing to enter Baba and trying to save people who

to be saved. We are talking about lives here. There has been a lot of

comment here about Marie Colvin, of course, the very brave foreign

correspondent for who was killed, and getting her body

out of Homs. Presumably, however, you are more concerned with the

living than with people who have died already? Well, we are

interested in everything. We are interested in getting the bodies of

the two journalists inside. We are interested in getting people who are

injured outside, whether Syrian or non-Syrian. This is what we do. We

don't really distinguish among people since this is strictly a

humanitarian mission. Rather bizarrely perhaps, there are

elections taking place. going to give you an

you think, for things to calm down, to get medicines in, to get people

out? I don't think it has to that. We are able to deliver

humanitarian assistance and medicines to Homs. There is no lack

of medicines, there is no food. The difficulty is to be

to access the specific areas where it has been too

it has been too dangerous for Red Cross and volunteers to go. If we

can do it then I hope we can sure we can take as much assistance

as is needed for people living these neighbourhoods, and

able to evacuate as many people as need to be evacuated. We are ready,

the RC and Syrian Red Crescent joint teams that are waiting to do

just that. Good luck. Our thoughts are with you.

I am joined now by the International I am joined now by the International

Development Secretary Andrew Development Secretary Andrew

I am joined Mitchell. Welcome. Good morning.

You, I think, have been talking the ICRC at the highest level.

What's the mood there about this terrible situation in Homs? Well,

the situation is extremely bleak. I spoke to the head of the

International Red Cross in Geneva last night and the problem is

there is very limited access, it's extremely difficult for the ICRC and

the Syrian Red Crescent to on the ground and extremely

difficult too for them to get out. We have been speaking about

the journalists who have been killed and caught up in all this but of

course a lot of people there not journalists, who are injured and

desperately need help. There is evidence on the ground of

journalists very bravely prioritising women with

have been caught up in the fighting and wounded, saying they should

helped out first. There is also evidence of people infiltrating

Red Crescent who are not part of the Red Crescent, and also you have

evidence of people who have been treated who have then been beaten up

afterwards, so the situation on the ground is extremely dangerous and

difficult. To follow that up, people who are trapped are worried

that, if they try to get out, they will simply be grabbed by Assad's

people and beaten up, or worse? There is evidence on the ground

Red Crescent people have been posing as such who are not in fact

Crescent so it's very difficult for the International Red Cross.

morning some 20,000 families are being fed thanks to British support,

support that we channel through the International Red Cross down to

Red Crescent. What is the government doing to try to help with

retrieving the bodies of Marie Colvin and Remi Ochlik? We

doing everything we can. been negotiations with the Syrian

authorities. Our ambassador in Damascus is engaged in trying to do

just that. Is there any kind of connection or conversation

happening? It's extremely and the conversations are patchy.

You've seen in Tunis an effort by nearly 70 countries to try and bring

some order to this desperate situation. This is an evil

which has turned its guns on its own people. It's despicable what is

happening and we will hold them to account in every way we can for

human rights abuses on. A lot of people will say:

around that part of the world, never mind more widely, there are lots of

wealthy and very, very well armed countries who are outraged

what is happening in Syria. Is there nothing more that can be done

to arm rebels or even to start to put people in? We need to stop the

fighting, not boost it in any way at all. The

is that the Assad regime should sit down and negotiate a Syrian-led,

Syrian-owned solution to the problems inside Syria. The

international community would support that very strongly.

trouble is, of course, that the international community is not

speaking with one voice because of the action taken in the Security

Council, particularly by the Russians. There seems very

that can be done about that, but is also a part of this a fear on the

part of the British government and others about what might follow the

collapse, the disorderly collapse of the Assad regime? In other words,

just because they are rebels mean they are all good guys

want to see running Syria? Well, everything that we are doing is to

attempt to secure a proper political process in which all the different

parties in Syria can join, to an end to the bloodshed and violence

which characterises Syria today. Is there any possibility, do you think,

where we will see outside troops under UN flags or whatever, going

into Syria? I don't think that is the answer. I don't think it's

remotely practical at the moment. I think the key thing is to stop the

fighting and to get the different parties to negotiate, and above

it is Assad who bears the responsibility for effecting that.

Just finally on Homs, where so much of the worst stuff seems to be

happening, any chance of pushing kind of Rafael

happening, any chance of pushing a kind

happening, any chance of pushing a kind of

happening, any chance of pushing a kind of corridor

kind of corridor in there, to aid to go in and the wounded and

desperate to get out? Well, that is what we are demanding. We are

demanding unfettered access for the humanitarian agencies who are

on the ground. These are enormously brave people, these aid workers

are working in Homs, and they are needs-based. They are not taking

sides. They are seeking to help those who are caught up and wounded

in the fighting, many of whom are very young children. We demand

unfettered access for them can carry out this vital work.

you hearing anything back at all from the Syrians about this,

government? The condition is very confused for reasons that I said.

People don't authorities at all and there's very

strong evidence why they trust them but we continue to push

in every way we possibly can for this unfettered access and

for dialogue and a political process to begin as soon as possible. Let

me ask you about the other conference of the weekend which was

Somalia. Many people ask, given the problems around the world,

Britain is hosting yet another conference on Somalia. Has it

achieved much? I think there is the possibility that Somalia will turn

the page as a result of the processes set in place at the

conference. We want a Somalian-owned and led and directed process on the

ground, supported by all the regional powers and by

international community and United Nations, and there is some

evidence that that will happen, we should be very clear. I see

extraordinary article - Well, The Observer alleges on its front page

splash story is that behind all of this is a secret high stakes dash

for oil in Somalia and that British companies and the British government

basically want Somali oil and what is behind this conference? I

award the journalist who wrote that story the prize for the most cynical

piece this century. The engagement in Somalia was led by

we were all of us in the Cabinet appalled at the dreadful effects

the famine where tens of of children under five were starving

to death as a result of what was going on in Somalia, and a

determination by the British government to play its part in

trying to bring order and stability to a very disadvantaged

difficult part of the world. That is why the Prime Minister called the

conference. It was, I think, the right time to do it, and we did it

because we are horrified by dreadful effects of the famine, the

lives of people in Somalia, where a girl is more likely to die having a

baby than to complete her primary schooling, but also, of course,

Somalia, in all its dysfunctionality is a threat to - So there's

commercial imperative this? There is none whatsoever. Of

course, if oil is found and developed, we want that oil to

for the benefit of the Somali people, but the British government's

development efforts are engaged to make sure that the money is

accounted for, spent transparently and works for the benefit of

Somalis. Quite a lot Conservative MPs rather resent the

fact that your department is kind of buffered and proofed against the

cuts that are happening elsewhere, and ask whether all the money is

being well spent, and have pointing particularly to

that the Indians don't actually the aid that we are giving them and,

after all, India is a country which apparently can afford more and more

nuclear weapons, a space programme and all the rest of it. Why should

we be giving money to India? Let me make it clear first of all that in

the very difficult economic circumstances which the coalition

inherited, of course this is a difficult argument. We think it's

the right thing to do, we think it's part of Britain's DNA to be

to people who are in very extreme circumstances, and of course our

development budget transformed there has literally been

revolution in the way Britain aid and development - transformed to

focus first of all on conflict, which is the key incubator

poverty, and then on the fact it is economic growth and the

private sector that - and entrepreneurialism which

people to lift them out of poverty. But surely it should be for the

relatively wealthy now government to deal with Indian

problems; not for us? Well, the Indian programme has been

transformed. This is the first year since the Second World War where

India is not our largest programme. We focus only on the very poorest

areas. Half of the Indian development budget now goes

private sector investment which the characteristics of a

wealth fund so that is from Britain but for Britain as

well, and India has one of the largest antipoverty programmes in

the world. Our technical assistance has assisted Indian money and Indian

funding, which is more than 95% all the funding, to get

children into school in the last five years. Which is wonderful. I

don't understand the propoor thing. Does that mean it is investment

will come back to Britain? Investment in what? We are trying

to ensure through organisations like CDC, other funds as well, where

British taxpayer's money is deployed, where we invest in the

private sector in driving up standards. This is an investment

which comes back to the UK through many of the characteristics of a

sovereign wealth fund. It's an investment in pro-poor trading and -

these are small businesses? These are small and medium enterprises,

these are social funds, but they come back to the United Kingdom

an increasing extent in our and that is good for prosperity in

India and good for prosperity in Britain. After all, our children

have come into a world of work where they don't get the pensions that

their forebears got, where they to pay for their own education,

where they see an enormous mountain of debt. The development budget

an investment in the future prosperity of countries like India.

It's also an investment in our prosperity and it offers a chance in

what will be one of the the biggest markets in the world for the next

generation to really gain from All right. Let me turn finally to a

domestic story. If you go the papers one-by-one today,

virtually all say roughly the same thing which is that the health bill

will go through but that Andrew Lansley has failed to sell it

properly and is in deep, political trouble with the Prime

Minister. I think anyone who knows and has worked with the

Minister and Andrew Lansley knows their deep and abiding love

respect and commitment to National Health Service.

think there's anyone in politics who has spent as much

has spent as much time in understanding the NHS as Andrew

Lansley has done. These have hardly been well-sold reforms, have they?

People don't understand them at I think all of us, not just Andrew

Lansley, have to understand why these reforms are taking place

but these stem from an absolute and Health Service, to making it

and to ensure that when people are living much longer, which is great,

where the cost of medicines is increasing, we get 100p out of every

pound of text pairs' money that we spend. You can tell there is some

sort of operation against the Health Secretary going on in the papers?

have nothing but respect for Health Secretary, he spent five

years in opposition working out to make the NHS better. All of us

have to be better at selling these reform. All right, Andrew Mitchell,

thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now over to

the news headlines. And

secretary Andrew Mitchell has told this programme that the government

is doing everything possible to help rescue journalists trapped in Homs.

He said the government was negotiating with the

authorities but acknowledged the conversations were "patchy". He

called on President Assad's government to allow aid agencies

unfettered access to help civilians. The new Sun on Sunday, the first

national Sunday newspaper to be launched in the last 20 years in, is

on sale this morning, published by News International following

closure of News of the World. The former Sun editor, Kelvin MacKenzie,

told this programme that the paper would not be taking risks. If you

are a young tabloid journalist you are not going to take a risk on

anything, and as well you know, Katie, even laying down your

you are prepared as a journalist to take a risk.

That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC1 is at midday. Back to

Andrew and guests but first a look at what is coming

up after this programme. Thanks, join us in Cardiff where

will be asking should we trust British journalism? Lembit Opik says

the press destroyed his life and career. And there are warnings that

people are dying needless because of booze. Does society pay too high a

price for alcohol? In lent, should we repent for the planet?

Noah Stewart admits he is unlikely back ground for an opera

singer, growing up in Harlem and yet he says it was the lack of black

performers which spurred him on he has performed all over the world.

He has a new album out as well. Good morning. Good morning, how are you?

It was your Mum that really got you going; is that right? Yes, my Mum

is a huge influence in my life she enrolled me downtown in New York

City because she wanted to ensure quality education for me and I was

very fortunate to have great teachers and mentors. What was it

like growing up in Harlem and you are an opera singer? It was a bit

weird. They used to call me opera guy and oftentimes would sing

when I would come around the corner going into my flat. You are

to be singing a new opera Garden? Yes, I make my debut

modern opera, it's fantastic music and I'm having a lot of fun. Your

album is something we are seeing a bit of these days, which is a kind

of mix of soul and gospel, on? Exactly. Plus some opera?

that because you want to pull people into opera? No, it's part of my

background. I started singing music from the West End as well as gospel

and also classical music so I wanted to give a broad range. So you

going to lift our souls the end? Lift our

of the programme? Amazing Grace with my fantastic guitarist today.

We will enjoy it. Thank you very much. We are back next Sunday

we will no doubt have more news from Syria and I should just make it

clear the BBC does have inside the country, they have been

reporting from Homs, but happily not trapped there at the moment.

Finally, as promised, here is Noah Stewart so lift our hearts with

Amazing Grace. # How sweet a sound

# That saved a wretch like me # I once was lost

# But now I'm found #

#Was blind but now I see # Twas grace that taught my heart to

fear # And grace my fears relieved

# How precious did that grace appear # The hour I first believed