04/03/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning and welcome. A very loud blast this Sunday morning

against the tyranny of State imposed orthodoxy, madness, a

grotesque some version of universally accepted human rights,

the very strong words of the Roman Catholic cardinal Keith O'Brien who

was attacking David Cameron over for the proposal for same-sex

marriage. Brian wandering of this could turn out to be David

Cameron's version of the hunting ban -- I am wondering. It could be

similar to the hunting band that Dr Tony Blair. Plenty to talk about in

the Sunday newspapers conducted with verve and precision, I am sure,

by the choir master Gareth Malone, and by the Conservative MP Margot

James. There is something rather strange about this morning's papers,

you may think, and it is the huge coverage given to the departure

from Number Ten who was never elected, was hardly a household

name and is best known for wandering around without any shoes,

but the loss of Steve Hilton, David Cameron's radical guru has become a

trigger for those people who think the government has lost its way and

with any radical edge. It is said he has resigned partly in

frustration over the party's position on Europe. We are joined

by the leading Tory least constrained by coalition, Boris

Johnson, as he launches his campaign for re-election, does he

share the fears that his party's identity is getting muddy and the

policies of it to water down? And we will talk about some of the

specific battles ahead for government ministers, the one over

Scotland's future with the Scottish Secretary Michael Moore. When will

the independence referendum come? And the row over the police and

press. I'll be asking the Lader -- Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman

has she thinks ministers should react. We will go abroad as

Vladimir Putin faces the voters in Moscow. Finally, a great opera diva

is brought back to life on the London stage by a great actress.

Tyne Daly tells us about playing Maria Callas and about her role in

the cult US cop series which many of us remember fondly, Cagney and

Lacey. So, a lot to come. First, One of the most senior Roman

Catholics in Britain has made an outspoken attack on the

Government's plans for gay marriage. David Cameron says he supports the

right of extending marriage to homosexual couples, but the

Cardinal Keith O'Brien, the leader of the Catholic Church in Scotland

said that redefining marriage would shame the United Kingdom in the

eyes of the world. People in Russia have begun voting to elect a new

President. Opinion polls suggest the Prime Minister and former

President Vladimir Putin is the clear front-runner, but four

candidates are challenging him for the position. The voting is under

way in the presidential election in Russia. Vladimir Putin, who has

already been in charge of the country for the past 12 years,

either as president or prime minister, is widely expected to win.

But the vote is taking place after a wave of unprecedented protests

against his continuing role. The protests were sparked by evidence

that the parliamentary election last December was rigged in favour

of the ruling party. Voting began in the far east of Russia. In

Vladivostok, at first a trickle of voters arriving at polling stations

to cast their ballots for one of five candidates contesting the

election. By late morning, polling stations were getting busier here

in Novosibirsk in western Siberia. Officials hoping for at least a 50

% turnout. Alongside the large number of election observers, on

the walls above them, newly installed a web cams to reassure

voters there will be no stuffing of ballot boxes once they leave. The

other question is whether the candidates on offer provide voters

with a real choice. Certainly this billionaire businessman, Mikhail

Prokhorov, is unlikely to win much support. But instead he may help

split the opposition vote. For that win shop Vladimir Putin has a

comfortable victory in the first round -- that may help Vladimir

Putin to a comfortable victory in the first round. At least 15 people

have been killed and more than 50 injured in Poland in what is being

described as one of the worst train crashes in the country for many

years. Officials say two trains were involved in a head-on

collision in a small town north of Krakow. Rescue workers are trying

to reach passengers trapped inside. Here, new evidence has emerged as -

- at the scale of cuts faced by charities in the UK. A leaked

report obtained by the Labour Party suggests funding for the sector

will go down by at least �1 billion in the current financial year. The

government has criticised the reports methods. Many people across

the United Kingdom reported seeing a large bright fire ball in the sky

last night. Scientists say it was almost certainly a meatier, but

some witnesses were initially worried and said it looked as if

they play was about to crash. -- a meteor. We will be back with the

The papers in a moment, but first, voting is under way in presidential

elections in Russia and this seems to be very little doubt about the

result. President using, will face challenges, assuming he is elected.

Tony Brenton was ambassador to Moscow at a very difficult time in

Russian relations and he joins me now. You faced some abusive and

horrible treatment from the Vladimir Putin regime in your day.

Assuming that he is elected, and we should do looking at the opinion

polls, so why should he be in trouble afterwards? He is facing

the biggest setback to his political popularity and standing

since he initially became President in the year 2000. Suddenly a

significant portion of the Russian elite have said they have had

enough of Vladimir Putin and want a change. Not enough ordinary

Russians feel like that so he will lose today, but sadly the people

who fixed the elections for him, judges to give their verdicts for

him, all of that are beginning to say they will not do this anymore.

So on the assumption he is re- elected, he will have a great deal

of difficulty running Russia in the way he has been running it. So when

we see the demonstrations in Moscow, like a snow lead to hear Square, we

have not seen at the next phase of a popular result against Vladimir

Putin, it is a middle-class revolt? It is based in the big cities,

Moscow, St Petersburg, but these are the Russian elite.

important is it that he is being mocked now? People are starting to

not taken seriously and laugh at him and no one likes being laughed

at. It is very important. It is very difficult to rule a country if

you are a source of laughter rather than fear. Britain has been worried

about the Vladimir beauty regime for a long time with the live

flamenco events -- the poisoning event. Any signs relations are

getting better? The Prime Minister was therefore a successful visit

last year. In the area of trade, things are going well and official

relations are as warm as they can be given that there is unfinished

business over the poisoning murder. There are people who are keen to

pursue what they can, but unfinished business remains

unfinished. To remind people who don't remember, tell us a little

bit about what happens to you when you were there. There was this

Russian youth movement, which is in fact take Vladimir Putin front.

was a Russian Hitler Youth, sort of. I made a bland speech in the wake

civil servants do, about how society was developing and the use

front took eight -- took offence and demanded an apology. So they

then barricaded my house, followed me round the country and try to

shout me down at my meetings and this went on for a few months.

Pretty horrible. And do you think that after this election it

Vladimir Putin will have to behave in a different way? A lot will

depend on what happens today. If there is blatant fraud, as there

was back in December, he will face a very strong resurgence of

demonstrations against him. If they can be more subtle about its then,

nevertheless, he will have to modify the way he runs the country.

There are already moves he has made to open up the political system to

try and deal with corruption. I am optimistic. The problem is not

solved, Vladimir Putin will win and be there for another six years at

least, but the pressure is on him to gradually changed Russia into a

more democratic direction and that feels very strong to me. And any

chance he will come away from his position of support for the Syrian

President and those old-fashioned cold war alliances? He has slightly

distanced himself but as he looks at Syria and Egypt and Libya he

sees a worrying reflection of what the situation might be in Russia.

He's not going to endorse political movement backed by the West, as he

claims, overthrowing governments. The Russian authorities have been

watching the fate of Hosni Mubarak, and now are watching him on trial

and thought, there but for the grace of God go I. Absolutely

fascinating. Thank you for being here this morning. Now to the

paper's review, and speaking of Syria, there is the Sunday Times

with a fascinating interview with its fascinating that -- winded

photographer who has escaped from Homs. The Observer Leeds on a story

about the blacklist of workers linked to the police. It picks up

the steep hills and story I mentioned earlier saying that

Cameron promises to continue his radical programme. I mentioned the

cardinal in angry mood. There are tears. -- they eat these. And the

Mail on Sunday reminds us says that after dictatorships things do not

become smooth, because there are British war graves in Libya which

have been desecrated by Libyans Both of you, thank you very much

for coming in. Who is going to start us off? Margo Jones -- Margot

James, the same-sex marriage story, and I expect you will not be

impressed by the cardinal's view. No, I never amok when the views are

expressed in such apocalyptic language, and I think it's an ex --

and an acceptable way for people to talk. The government is not try to

force Catholic to perform gay marriages. It is a civil marriage,

a least that is my understanding, but dug up what about his argument

that the word marriage is being arguably changed. When a civil

partnership legislation went through, the churches were telling

us that was going to be undermining marriage and would be the end of

marriage as we knew it, and that hasn't happened at all. Marriages

have in fact shown an increase in the last year. There think this

sort of scaremongering is what it is. The language is very strong.

Fire and brimstone, yes. I see that Steve Hilton is leaving us for

sunnier climes. He is clearly a man who likes to wear shorts, and I

cannot think why he is leaving to go to Stanford University in

California to see his family at this time. And this story about

soldiers not able to afford to eat and they are paid fairly poorly.

Because of my experience of working with the military I've become quite

concerned about the welfare of their families, and they have to

consume 2,900 calories a day, which is a massive amount of food.

Apparently when they are based in this country they have to pay for

their own food, and they cannot afford to do that. It is obviously

very close to your heart, all of this. The single did fantastically

well with the Military Wives. For the very small number of people who

missed it first time round, let's This is a very optimistic and up

form of television, a million miles away from the theatre of cruelty

that some reality television has been. Do you think there has been a

change in the public mood, because it is being lapped up? I think so.

There are enough bad news stories and wait and - when we sit to watch

down entertainment we want something uplifting. There have

been so many programmes that are about misery and argument. There is

a programme this week, Make Bradford British, and five or 10

years ago that would have been full of argument but it seems more

optimistic now. There is generally the kind of warm mood. Returning to

the Steve Hilton story you mentioned, you have a story about

I am sure the loss won't be as keenly felt as people predict. One

of the reasons he is going is because he wants to spend more time

with his family in California. His wife works for Google.

Clearly, a lot of people in the Conservative Party think he was one

of the few people prepared to go up to the Prime Minister, Sheikh him,

and say get on with it. A big loss? I think so, yes. But other people

can come forward. For those who don't understand why people are

making a fuss about Steve Hilton, there is a provocative lying in the

Observer saying "Steve Hilton inventive David Cameron, at least

he did so in the sense that he was the significant shaper of the

public persona or when they were trying to get out of opposition and

into government". David Cameron it is his own man, for a start. We are

moving into a lot of welfare reform legislation, there is a lot to do

to get those implemented properly. It is important focus on that, a

priority. Gareth, next story. Apparently migrants are

outstripping native pupils in GCSEs. It is my experience that those who

have had less opportunity at education often value it more than

we do. The to the long-standing phenomenon that people who come

into a country have that little bit extra push. The drive is really

important, and your attitude to education is important. It gives

the example of the 16 year old who came into the classroom only able

to say hello, then within two years taking GCSEs. There are question is

how we inject that enthusiasm into native form Britain's.

difference is only less than 1% so it is not a massive difference.

is also those people coming here who have British as a second

language, so it is helping their brains, it seems to be an advantage.

We were talking about Moscow with the former ambassador, you have

chosen a rush and story. I was quite encouraged to hear what the

former ambassador said. The human rights abuses in Russia are

phenomenal, it is not just the corruption, and the fact the

Russian people are going to the polls today with the feeling that,

whoever they vote for, they will get Putin. If you look at the polls,

it is clear what will happen. Another story. This is very much on

my territory. Cinemas are showing opera and ballet. Madam Butterfly

will be shown in 3D. This is an opportunity to watch an art form

that does not work when you are listening on the kitchen radio. You

need the scale of the screen, you need surround-sound to really get

it. Ultimately you need to be there. I don't think opera translates at

all well on television. I agree, but it is interesting people are

flooding into selected cinemas to see it. Yes, but you simply can't

get to London if you live in the North of England so it is a great

opportunity for people. I mentioned the photographer in Homs writer at

the beginning. So brave, so tragic, a tragic loss to journalism. The

photographer got away just in time, just after he left the tunnel the

exit was bombed by Syrian forces. A lot of people were killed in that

escape. The extraordinary story on the front of the Sunday Times. We

understand the journalist's body is now being brought back. An

interesting tome in the second Sun on Sunday. I thought the mood was

set last week in the first edition. It is a more positive paper,

wouldn't you say, than the News Of The World it replaced, not so

undermining of everything. This interview I picked out with Simon

Cowell, talking about the Olympics, X Factor. I understand he has

invited Ian Duncan-Smith on to the X Factor after he criticised it.

would pay money for that. Perhaps he should be a judge for one

special edition. It reflects the whole paper, which is more positive

intone than the paper it replaced. I also see the Archbishop of York,

one of our favourite Archbishops on this programme, he is carrying on

his column on the Sun on Sunday. He is talking about charity. We have a

story about the weather, Gareth. have misplaced it, but... There are

amazing pictures of the effects of the tornado in the United States.

Yes, a shocking situation. There is a positive news story to round it

off, a baby has been found alive and well amongst devastation.

that note, thank you. The strange vision in the sky, not the meatier

you may have seen last night but that soft wet stuff we

traditionally called Rain, which we have seen much less of than usual

this winter. Remember, as Billy Connolly once said, there is no

such thing as bad weather, just Waterproof clothing and an umbrella

would be appropriate today. It will feel cold, but it will feel

particularly cold if you are stuck underneath the cloud and rain. It

is turning wetter in the south-west this morning. There is the

possibility of some sleet and snow on the back edge of this wet

weather across the hills in the north. It will be easing East,

further west it will be drying up a bit. There will be some showers,

wintry in the north-west. Up to eight degrees in the West, but more

chilli in the east. The wind will be picking up, making it feel

colder. This could turn to more sleet and snow, it is marginal at

the moment. Overnight, clear skies and some icy patches. Tomorrow,

cold, wet, windy still a cross East Anglia. This no turning back to

rain I suspect, but miserable here. Very few showers around,

temperatures in single figures at best book particularly cold in the

south-east and East Anglia. It is useful rainfall that drought

affected area. Scotland's future is much under

discussion. A conference in Edinburgh on Friday, organised by

the Times newspaper, brought together many of the key political

players, including the First Minister, Alex Salmond. He of

course wants a referendum on independence, but not just yet.

Meanwhile David Cameron is offering more devolution, but it's not clear

quite what that means. To explain why, I'm joined by the Scottish

Secretary, Michael Moore, who's at the Lib Dem conference in Inverness.

Good morning. Can I start by asking about the timing of this referendum

because it is clear the nationalists are determined it will

happen in the autumn of 2014, while many other people would like to see

it happen before that, possibly next year. Who will win that

next year. Who will win that tussle? We are in a discussion, but

the point you made about not having it yet strikes most people as a bit

bored because the SNP has existed to deliver independence since it

was created, and we have set out how you can do this within 500 days,

rather than 1000 days that the First Minister thinks we need. We

are in the middle of the debate about what our future should be. It

is so important that we should seek to have it as soon as possible. We

are beginning to see evidence that the uncertainty is damaging major

companies, so let's get on with the debate. But you can't force the

First Minister of Scotland, the elected Scottish government, to

have the referendum before they want to have it, can you? We are

showing people their options and we have consultations out at the

moment. We know the Scottish parliament does not have the power

to run the referendum, I want to work with him to make sure we

devolve the powers to make sure we have a legal referendum. It is

important it is decisive, and we get it as soon as possible. That

discussion it is ongoing, but in Scotland most people want to see it

happen sooner than later. Can I turn to what the Prime Minister

said when he was in Scotland recently. He clearly said there

would be more devolution of some kind if Scotland did not vote for

independence, but he was not clear what that might mean. Can you then

lightened us any further? What the Prime Minister recognised was the

debate on further powers for devolution for Scotland is ongoing,

it has been going for generations. What he made clear is there will be

no change to the legal settlement around devolution until after the

referendum results whether we are going our separate way or not, but

he acknowledged the debate will continue. We are looking at what

those powers might look like. The Labour Party said yesterday it is

looking at that as well, there will be a broad debate and over time we

will agree what they should be. give people some sense of what that

might be, one option would mean the Scottish parliament would be having

to raise income tax and possibly corporation tax the same proportion

of money roughly speaking as is spent in Scotland, about 60% of the

total - is that the kind of thing you think is on the table? At the

moment, we are looking to transfer the most significant package of

financial powers from London to Scotland. But much less than that?

Yes indeed, it is a smaller package than the things you are looking at,

but the debate about what types of taxation we should devolve is a

lively one. We have got a very ambitious thought about the

different taxes that could be devolved, but we are not the only

ones in that debate. The Labour Party, the Conservative Party, the

trade unions, even the SNP has a role in that. We will have a damn

good argument, and hopefully come to an agreement. To be clear, you

would like more powers going beyond the Scotland Bill that is going

through at the moment to be devolved in due course? If we

reflect on the debate over the generations, we have always debated

the ideas, come together, found common ground. You must be able to

say whether you would like to see more devolution of powers to

Scotland or not. Yes, I would. As a party, we have long argued that.

The thing is, we do that by consensus. We need to work with

others and then deliver it. That being the case, it is clear from

the polls that Scottish voters would like at least three options

on the agenda when they vote. They would like the status quo to be

there, they would like full independence to be there, and some

form of extra devolution to be there. If that is what people want

on the ballot paper, why not let them have it? I think people want

more powers, I agree with that, and as a Liberal Democrats I want to

see that over time, but separate to that I think people want the

central issue resolved - will we be staying in the United Kingdom or

not? We need a single question to resolve that, and then we can talk

about what the extra powers will look like. We don't need a

referendum to have the permission about the debate, the argument is

already under way. On the straight forward union or not argument, who

will lead your campaign? Win will have a broad-based campaign.

Alistair Darling will be part of it, we will have senior figures from

the Liberal Democrats as part of that as well, and people from

beyond politics will also be part of that, because there is a

positive case to be made for Scotland staying in the UK. Let me

ask you about what a local man, Keith O'Brien, the Cardinal has

said about gay marriage this morning. Very strong words, really

warning everyone that if you persist with that, you will get

into a headlong confrontation with Let's be clear, we are consulting

on this, but there are two important points. We are not

seeking to change religious marriage or impose it on religious

groups. What we are saying is that where a couple loved each other and

wish to commit them to life, they should be able to have a civil

marriage, irrespective of their sexual orientation. There will be a

lively debate, a considered debate, but I think it is important.

you find the cardinal's language inflammatory? I was in the Vatican

a couple of weeks ago talking to cardinals and others about the big

issues of our time that affect the church, and we can have strongly

expressed opinions and a lively public debate. Important we reflect

on the central issue, which is that we enable people to have access to

civil marriage, irrespective of their sexual orientation. Michael

Moore, thank you for joining us. The Scottish Secretary, Michael

Moore. And you can see an interview with the First Minister Alex

Salmond on Sunday Politics at 11:30pm. Opera buffs can spend

hours debating who was the great soprano of the 20th century, but

one name will always be at the top, the incomparable Maria Callas. Up

on stage brilliance was almost overshadowed by her collar for

offstage life, her riches, lovers, tantrums and her life. Tyne Daly

has been receiving rave reviews for her performance as Maria Callas,

and the play Masterclass is about the drive to be the best and what

became after the glory faded. Tyne Daly, welcome. This has been a

hugely successful play in New York as well as London. She still

attracts immediate attention, But I just got a 12th biography to

read, and I am studying this woman, and she is a very fascinating, but

what is interesting about icons is that people tend to paste their own

agenda on top of them. The mother's book, the husband's book, the

sisters book, they all have a take on her. She was great to write

about, a poor background, tough growing up during the war, but she

was a bit of a monster, wasn't she? They're very, very tough woman.

was an exacting the artist and amazing what she did as a musician

and as a singer. But her life has these Greek proportions and these

huge happenings with death, betrayal, the mob turning on the

and lots of wonderfully dramatic things. She was a huge celebrity.

In the play, you play her when her voice is pretty much gone and she's

doing a masterclass in New York. Explain to us, for young singers.

People who have had important careers come to the music school

and pass on what they can to young singers. Because you are a great

singer doesn't necessarily make you are -- a great teacher. She's tough

and also searching around about how to communicate with them. Thereby

hangs a tale. The events in the classroom take her into her private

life and she has two arias at the end of both acts which are about

her inner world. When people say she's the ultimate diva, we talk

about words changing, it is now just become a slightly obstreperous

and bad behaviour, but it should mean much more than that. It was

something that was burnt in the old day, meaning divine, meaning

something wonderful that you did. Some people are wonderful at what

they do because they involve concentration and energy. But it is

a cheapened word. It has gone to mean someone who is bad tempered

and lousy to be around. I don't know. She had a particularly strong

relationship with London audiences. She was very revered here which

made it extra dangerous to do the play here. In New York City she was

fired at the met and last gala -- and the opera house, and there were

people who could not take the heat of her passion, but she was adored

here and had her best successes here, I would say. People talk

about people dying from a broken heart, do you think she did? Yes, I

do. I think the first 15 years, between 15 and 30, she worked like

a dog and then she changed her entire self, physical and interior

self, and the next 15 years of the glorious. And then she was a tired

lady and she spent nine years with this man who she thought was going

to marry her and he traded upwards for Mrs Kennedy. Those of us of a

certain generation we know you, above all, and you get it all the

time, for Cagney and Lacey. That is OK with me. Let's remind people, he

is a little bit of the theme. -- here is a little bit of the opening

We were talking about the toll that performance can bring, but this was

a tough time for you, because your character has young children, but

as an actress, doing huge numbers of episodes of Cagney and Lacey,

you had young children as well, so it must have been a physically

demanding period. The television show is 14 or 15 hours a day for an

actress. The crew can work for 12 hours, then they have to have a 12

hour break, but you have to come in, turning to that lady and then stop

being a lady and do the day of work. We were averaging 14 or 15 hours a

day, which is a lot. I had two little kids and I gave birth to my

third in the middle of the run, but I was comparatively young. And this

was a ground-breaking show as well, because your character had

alcoholism problems and there was tough stuff happening at home.

Breast cancer, date rape. All of this bad stuff. We were not used to,

in those days, cop shows which carried on after you had hunger of

the bunch at the end of the day. we didn't go home with coach Jack

or Colombo. -- with Co Jack. So in the time we were in, could there

was LA Law in the States that were interested in more than what you

did free-living, but what else you did besides your job. -- what you

did for a living. After that there was NYPD Blue, which in many ways

picked up the formula and ran with it. Maybe so. In the States we are

back to procedure shows where all you do is watch people pick up

little pieces of things and put them in little bags, and I'm glad I

don't have that job. You are still friends with your co-star? Yet, she

was here doing her play and I thought we were going to be on at

the Strand together but it was not to be so. It was like a wrestling

tag team. You are still with us for another couple of months. Yeah,

until April and the audiences are very exciting. We were warned that

the English audience would not be responsive. Yes, but we have

changed. I am finding it really exciting to be here. The fact you

Last week was pretty momentous and theatrical at the Levinsen inquiry.

It started with a very senior police officer talking of the

culture of illegal payments at the defunct News Of The World. Quite

separately, another journalist from the Sun has been arrested. All of

this is shining a powerful light at the media, the police and also

politicians to have to decide what to do about this. I am joined by

the Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman. Thank you for coming in.

How serious do you regard the stuff that is coming out of the Leveson

Inquiry? Corruption at the police level? Corruption in journalism, is

that if there were to use? I think it is immensely serious -- if that

is a fair word to use. I think the problems that have been so evident

before the Leveson Inquiry need to be dealt with. We have seen clear

allegations of bribery of the police by the newspapers. We pride

ourselves in being a non corrupt country, yet the police, of all

public services, being subjected to bribery and corruption. Not just

being subjected, taking it happily. In deed, being corrupted. We have

also seen backing of a murdered girl's telephone, and having been

told for years that this is just one road reporter, it appears it

was systematic illegal hacking. -- one rogue reporter. We have to make

sure that we have a press in this country which is not above the law,

which does not corrupt public officials to break the law, and

which respects their own journalists code. We have a great

tradition of British journalism and we have to protect that tradition

and we sort matters out. For years these concerns have been expressed,

and there has never been that moment where it could be sorted out.

Many politicians have been too scared, frankly, of the big media

barons to take them on. I think that is right. I think Rupert

Murdoch has been too powerful and has played divide and rule. What we

now have is the opportunity to sort this out. What we have is

enforcement of the law, protection of individuals, and never allowing

so much media power to go into her hand of an individual so he plays

one party against the other and puts himself above the law and

above government. I started off by saying that in the end it all ends

up in the laps of politicians. Are you saying you want to see two

things? You want another look at diversity of ownership in the

British media? I think it is evident if you have one man owning

four major newspapers, the son, News Of The World, the Times,

Sunday Times. 37 % of the newspapers are owned by one man and

that was obviously too powerful. Ofcom, the regulator, is doing an

inquiry into whether we should change the rules to prevent

monopolies growing across media. We need to look at newspapers as well,

but also the enforcement of the Press Complaints code which has

been quite a toothless. He's your instinct that you would not want to

see state regulation of the press, however? -- is that your instinct?

We need to see better regulation of broadcasting. But in relation to

the newspapers, I think the editors giving evidence to the Leveson

Inquiry so they must have independent redress for complaints

and it cannot be the newspaper editors marking their own homework

and are making themselves judge and jury, but it also must apply to

everyone. It cannot just be something you have to opt into. All

newspapers must be covered by the code and it must be enforced. The

problem with the Press Complaints Commission chairman is proposing is

that it still allows an editor to decide he will not play ball with

that and will stay outside the system. That is not acceptable.

There is a big dilemma that if you do have legally enforceable and

statutory regulation, you have political regulation, in a way. No

one seems to have come up with a way around that yet. Obviously, you

need independence. Independence from the newspaper editors. They

cannot judge when they are held to account, but nobody wants

governmental determination of what the newspapers do, so the challenge

is to make sure we have a system that applies to everyone and in

terms of all the newspapers and actually which is independent of

the editors. I can work out what I think the solution is, but I am a

politician. It is much better if the newspaper editors themselves

say, these are the principles we all agree on, and here is our

proposal about how it can be made to work in practice, and therefore

we can been at it. Do you think the opposition and the government can

find a consensus on this in Parliament? A I think we should do.

I think no political party, if you believe in the rule of law and the

sovereignty of the people in democracy, it is in all of our

interest to get this sorted out. One of the ironies is that Murdoch

has played divide and rule. The question is, on the back of all the

evidence that has come out of this, can we say now is the historic

moment where we actually agree together that we will sort this out

in the interests of a free press in our democracy? The you have any

sympathy with journalists to say these extremely aggressive dawn

raids by the police are an over- reaction by police who are really

guilty themselves and have come into the spotlight and are taking

it out on some of the journalists they used to deal with? Why do not

want to comment on the operational actions of the Police -- I do not

want. They have to do this investigation without fear or

favour. Beware that has been evidence of illegality there must

be prosecutions and people must be held to account, but beyond that we

need a framework that Sir -- sorts out a problem that everybody knows

has been going on and has never been dealt with, which has been

corrupting democracy. Can I ask you about one of the story in the

papers today, about reports that there is a possible deal inside the

coalition that would allow, maybe as early as the Budget, a cut in

the 50 p higher rate of tax, and in return some kind of makeshift tax.

What would be the Labour attitude to that? You only pay 50 p on

income over �150,000. If you're on over �150,000, you can afford that.

You're not worried about the cost of filling up your car or whether

you can pay your next gas and electricity bill. The irony is, in

April, the cutting tax credit for low income working families is

coming into effect that there should be even a discussion about

reducing the tax liability of those on income over �150,000 per year. I

think it is grossly unfair. I also think we have a macro economic

concern that the cuts are too far and too fast which could reduce the

deficit, but there is also the issue of fairness. The people who

should be paying are those who can most afford it, not those on lower

You steered a lot of equalities legislation through, when the

Cardinal is talking about same-sex marriage being one step too far,

and warning that there will be a real fight about this, do you have

any sympathy for that position? Were have had discrimination and

homophobia for hundreds of years, and it doesn't make it right. To

have same-sex marriages, I think that is right. Do you think it is

the prejudice... I do not want anybody to feel this is a licence

for whipping up prejudice. I think there is a public policy discussion,

we are clear where we stand on it, but I think what you're talking

about his individual people and their personal relationships, their

love for each other and wanting to be in a partnership and getting

married, and I think we should support that. A what did you make

of the language when you read it this morning? I hope it will not

fuel prejudice and discrimination. We have made great strides towards

a fairer society but we still have a long way to go so I don't want

this to be pulling things back. Thank is.

In a couple of months' time, people in several major cities in England

will have chance to elect their own mayor. In London, the current mayor

is Boris Johnson, who is seeking re-election for a second term. He

has brought in Boris bikes, and if he had his way London would have a

new airport as well. He is a staunch defender of the financial

sector as well, which is not universally popular these days, and

he joins me now. Good morning. Can I start by asking, of course most

people watching are not from London, but how seriously some of the tax

changes we have been talking about earlier in the programme would

effect London. We have been talking about a possible so-called mansion

tax. From my point of view, I don't want anything that does damage to

the London economy in any way, and I will be arguing for a Budget that

promotes growth. The things I want to see particularly our investment

in infrastructure in London, building new homes for people who

can't afford to get on the housing ladder, and improving our creaking

transport infrastructure. That is where I think the money should be

going and that is a point I have made repeatedly to government. At a

time of rising youth unemployment, I would like to see more done to

help people get young people into the place of work. If they can be

National Insurance holidays for businesses to encourage them to

take young people on, that would be a great thing. Rather than obliging

them to work for nothing? On that argument, I am on the side of those

who think some sort of work experience is better than nothing.

If you talk to people who are involved in getting people into

work, they think it is better for them to be getting skills, than on

benefits. They are was clearly a potentially successful Liberal

Democrats campaign inside the government for a mansion tax, how

do you react to that? We will have to see how that comes off. I am not

keen on anything that disadvantages the city. What I will say is that

if there is something that could, you know, if you want to savour

billion pounds and you want to do something on housing, and we have

done all sorts of things to build new homes in London, but you should

crackdown on stamp duty. There is a billion pounds being lost... People

are evading stamp duty. He it is the scandal, and more and more

people are mentioning it to me. People have wised up to the fact

that rich people can set up a company to buy the property they

want and they are not paying stamp duty. I would crack down on tax

avoidance of all kinds. This proposal for a mansion tax is not

something that worries you? We will have to see what it is. As far as I

understand it, there is no agreement in the coalition.

Obviously, in a city like London, you will find many more people who

might be hit by such attacks. I would much rather that we stop

focusing so much on bashing people, and started thinking about what we

can do to help people into work. That is what I mean by supporting

things like National Insurance holidays, infrastructure, those are

the things that will drive jobs and growth over the next 10 years.

about getting rid of the 50 pence rate? Again, this subject, we have

been round it quite a lot, I don't think it is a good thing for London,

for the UK, over the long term, to have rates of tax that are

conspicuously higher than our global competitors. One country is

about to put 75p on, if the Chancellor gets his way. That's his

if he gets his way. I want to help young people into work and

crackdown on tax avoidance of all kinds. There is a big push from the

Heathrow third runway lobby, presumably you would want to see

that argument reopened? I don't think it is right to build a third

runway at Heathrow. If you look at the measures proposed, the extra

capacity, they are trying to load a tennis court into a pint pot. I am

not in favour of it. It is not just the noise pollution, it is the

congestion in that part of London, it is not a good idea. What about

the growth agenda, which you have talked about, because there are a

lot of people who say at all costs we must expand airport capacity in

this country, particularly in the south-east. We just have to get

ahead and build more airports. think the growth agenda certainly

revolves around transport infrastructure. If you look at the

history of London and the growth of this city, it was built by people

who had the imagination to electrify the railways and send

them out into suburbs not dreamt of. What I want to do it is, if you

look at the tube network we have at the moment, it is about to be 150

years old. There is a massive opportunity to modernise and

automate that you system and take it forward so that it is better

than it is now. What about the condition of your Conservative

Party friends? Steve Hilton going off to California, no doubt because

his wife wants to be there and the rest of it, but there is a big

worry that the edges being lost from conservatism, that the process

of coalition is moving and grinding away the edges. Is it radical

enough, this government? What the government needs to do, and what I

think they are doing very well, is stop the nonsense. What Harriet

Harman was talking about with the Labour approach, it was Labour's

fiscal approach that got us into this mess. You have got to do

something about that approach to spending and I think it is

important to cut waste and focus on what matters. I want the government

to help us in London to power through the recession. One of the

arguments going on is the extent to which government can start to tear

up a lot of the regulations that have arrived over the years from

Brussels and from Europe without leaving the EU. Do you think more

should be done for instance there? It is certainly true that Britain

is punctilious in obeying EU regulations in a way that other

European nations are not. I certainly think we gold plate it,

we put so much spin on the ball that would make it very difficult

some time for businesses to comply in a reasonable way. Are you in a

real fight in London, do you think? A of course, this is the greatest

job - you have advertised the other positions coming up - but I think

this is the most wonderful job coming up. Anybody would expect

this to be a knock down contest because it is a fantastic job to be

able to do. Has doing this job changed you? Yes, it has. A in what

way? I suppose I did not have, let's be totally clear, I was not

thought of as a municipal body, I think we have got a lot better at

what we are doing. Do you think you have become more serious? For it is

probably true that, to do a job like running London, being the

mayor of London, you have to focus very hard on things that really

matter to people. This is a city that is going through tough times

economically, and I think the way forward now is for us to do a

series of things that may not be, we may not see the immediate

advantage of investing in infrastructure in transport, but if

we don't, we will be in trouble in 10 years' time. A biographer said

the thing about Boris Johnson is that he could give so much more

than he has. Will we be seeing you on the national stage, whatever

happens in London? By will be doing my best to give whatever I can.

This job is absorbing mentally, emotionally, 100 sent it to

something I love doing and I want to continue doing. Whether I will

be lucky enough to do anything else in politics, I very much doubt.

Thank you. And we'll hear from some of the

other key London mayoral candidates over the next couple of weeks. Now

over to Naga for the news headlines. Michael Moore was told this

programme he favours the transfer of more powers over to the Scottish

government in Edinburgh. Alex Salmond has said he will launch the

campaign for Yes vote in the referendum in May, although he does

not want the vote to take place himself until 2014. The next used

on BBC One is at 11:30am. Let's see what is coming up after this

programme. In York this morning, we will be

asking if we should promote united British identity. As Israel's Prime

Minister travels to Washington to discuss air strikes on Iran, we ask

is Iran a real threat? Also, or should we listen to the angels?

This woman has a message from them to the world.