11/03/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

In less than two months Londoners will go to the polls to decide who

they want for their mayor. I will be talking to Ken Livingstone who

is hoping to win back his old job. When his plan to cut the tube fares

help transport him back to City Hall? As the violence continues in

Syria, how credible is President Assad's reign that he will end the

killing there. We will be talking about Zimbabwe and a remarkable

film and book about resistance to Robert Mugabe. The Archbishop of

York will be here, along with the author and human rights activist.

We will talk to matters closer at home as well. One of this year's

big musical discoveries will be performing a track from his debut

album. He will be playing live later on.

Japan is marking the first anniversary of the devastating

earthquake and tsunami which killed nearly 20,000 people. The memorial

service was in Tokyo and a minute's silence was held nationwide at

exactly the time the Earth quickstep.

The national service of remembrance was alleged by the Emperor. At 46

minutes past two in the afternoon, the precise moment the earthquake

struck, there was a moment's silence. Earlier at dawn handfuls

of people gathered for small, private remembrance services in the

area hit by the tsunami. This area is still a wasteland and there has

been very little building. In the area around the Fukushima nuclear

plant the population has moved out and it may be decades before they

can come back. Total disaster was only just avoided. The legacy is a

loss of faith in nuclear power not just in Japan, but in many places

around the world. Wearing protective clothing, some residents

were allowed back briefly to a spot less than a mile from the nuclear

plant. They laid flowers in memory of those who died. In a sign of

hope for the future they planted cherry trees. Someone, one day may

An American soldier has opened fire on Afghan civilians, killing at

least three and wounding several others after walking off from a

base in Kandahar. It is thought the soldier suffered a mental breakdown.

NATO officials are investigating the incident Roman Catholic Church

in England and Wales is stepping up its campaign against the

Government's plan to legalise SAM- sex marriage. Two most senior

Archbishops say the change would reduce the significance of marriage

and that Catholics have a duty to make sure it doesn't happen.

This is the traditional form of marriage between a man and a woman,

the Roman Catholic hierarchy is determined to preserve. In their

letter, the Archbishop of Westminster and the Archbishop of

Southwark, flatly reject the Government's view that allowing

same-sex couples to marry is a matter of equality. They say it has

to be, by its nature, to be between people of opposite sex. They say:

They tell Catholics they have a duty to do all they can to ensure

the true meaning of marriage is not lost for future Jeanations.

Archbishop Smith has asked parishioners to sign a pettition

against it. He would like to rally Roman Catholics to a political

battle against the measure. Another thing that is said is, "Oh, this is

just about the couple who want to get married" well, it isn't just

about the same-sex couple who want to get married. This affects the

whole of society. Last week, the Roman Catholic leader in Scotland

announced his own attack, describing the idea as madness and

the growesque sub version of a universally accepted human right.

The deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, will, today, call for this

month's Budget to include more tax cuts for the least well off. Mr

Clegg will also repeat his call for a so-called tycoon tax, to clamp

down on tax avoidance by the very rich. Prince Harry has been drawing

the clouds in Brazil. His approach proved to be a big hit in RIIA

where he met a samba band before going on a tour of one of the

city's poorest areas. Thank you very much. In Syria, the

Army has launch the a new assault yesterday, showing some of the

centres against the uprising. The military operation has raised fears

of a new, all-out offensive. Earlier, I was joined by a member

of the senior Syrian National Council, doctor Kodmani is head of

the foreign relations Council and I asked her if she believed that the

talks would bring any relief to the situation. Relief, first of all,

definitely. The emergency there is such that I think one first result

of Kofi Annan's visit should be the free access for humanitarian

assistance. If that doesn't happen, I'm not sure Kofi Annan will be

able to continue his mission. So these are the first concrete

results that the SNC and the people in Syria would like to see,

definitely. In terms of the prospects of his success, we just

want to make sure this is not just a mere mediation. For us, from the

SNC perspective, there is no way any discussion or dialogue, we

don't speak of dialogue, we speak of notions based on a clear plan

and that plan, from our perspective and from the Syrians' perspective

thousands have died for Assad to go. So him stepping down is definitely

a first condition of any discussion, or any notion. Negotiations.

sorry, if he says, or appears to says that some ceasefire or end of

violence on either side would allow talks, that's not enough for you?

You need to hear more from him than that? A ceasefire from his

perspective puts both sides on the same level. What the security

troops and the army are doing and the atrocities they are committing

are not comparable to people on the ground protecting civilians and

defending themselves. The people have been fighting a regime and

they want the end of this regime. If this is going to be turned into

a conflict between two parties, this is not going to go in the

right direction. So from all perspectives this needs to be very

clear and for Kofi Annan in particular. You're in istian bull

rblg white a lot of high-ranking defectors have arrived in Turkey

and Turkey seems to be becoming a very important player in this, as

long as Russia and other countries refuse to have a kind of united

world view on is Syria, Turkey's role seals to be becoming more

important? For us, Turkey is going to be a key player in any scenario,

in the future. Whether it is a negotiation, and whether it is some

form of intervention to create some safe zones, to ensure access for

humanitarian aid into the country. Turkey is everybody's best partner

here. It is a border country, it has its own concerns and its own

security is affected by what happens in Syria at the moment and

therefore it will need to be part of any arrangement in the coming, I

hope, weeks. As a leading member of the Syrian opposition, what do you

say to those people that the trouble is with Assad gone, Syria

would break into Civil War? first thing to know is this

dictatorship is working every single day and we have examples of

that, to incite hatred between communities. And I think this is

the answer, when you say this regime is seeking to create those

ethnic and religious differences among people and hatred and incite

to vengeance, then I think the quicker this regime goes the better.

Syrians have many, many stories to tell of how people are bringing in

food and smuggling food into hoplts when Baba Amr homes when Baba Amr

was under siege. We know that Christians hide some people and

people are keeping together and bonding together on the ground in

face of this incredibly horrible regime. And I think that indicates

that the ground exists, clearly and solidly for all communities to come

together. It's a political arrangement that we need. It is not

a religious reconciliation operation. People have lived

together and the regime has sought to isolate communities, one from

the other. To isolate every citizen from any other, because every joint

work is a threat to the regime. And therefore people just need to bond

together and they have bonded together in the face of the regime

and in the face of the atrocities. I think this lays the ground for a

political arrangement to emerge from the aftermath of the regime.

Doctor Kodmani, a very emotional time. Thank you very much for

joining us this morning. And now to the front pages, today. The Sunday

Express. Pill to extend life by 20 years. That's not what is being

offered free, though. It's a sweet bar. The Sunday Times. A huge story,

if all is as reported, English cricket in bung scandal, it says.

The Sun has Lampard's pedo uncle and girl. The Observer says that

thousands of emergency police have been axed as cuts hit the front

line, despite what the Government says about that. And the Mail says

top TV game shows face a crackdown, because the games don't involve

skill which makes it straight- forward gambling. Here to review

the papers are Jenny Jones and Danny Sriskandarajah. You're from

the Commonwealth society, it is Commonwealth Day tomorrow, what

what happens? It's a big day, especially this year as it is the

60th year of Her Majesty being the head of the Commonwealth, so in

Westminster Abbey we have a service tomorrow. And you've chosen a story

about faith and Christians? That's right. The headline is about a

court case two women are bringing about their ability to wear a cross

in public. What is fascinating to me is that the stories reflect the

shifting sands over public settlement. We're a multi-faith

society and what do we think of gay marriage and in a poll here, the

majority of the British are in support of gay marriage,

unfortunately for David Cameron, the majority of the Conservatives

oppose it. So he might have an uphill battle there. And Jenny, you

have the elections in London and many communities jostling alongside

each other? I still can't believe we're discussing the subject, I

think it's so old-fashioned to think that two people of the same

sex cannot get married. What is your story? Now, we knew there was

a huge amount of fat to be trimmed in most police forces, but I think

the Government has gone too fast, too far and people are worried that

when they need help it won't be there. And they're taking out all

the civilian staff who are doing all the important back-office jobs,

so the police will have to do all the paperwork instead of being out

on the streets. Does that mean there is still a lot of paperwork

to be done when the police to anything? That's fair. You have to

know how they do their job and how to measure it, so some form filling

is necessary. But clearing out the civilians who do the jobs is not

the way forward. And I have the story about Prince Harry and his

travels, he's now in Brazil. A huge hit it seems. He challenged Bolt to

a run. And today he's taking part in a new campaign for publicity to

get people to come and visit the United Kingdom. I think there was

an unsettling picture on the front of the Sunday times which appears

to be Prince William running along, but, in fact, it was Prince Harry

wearing a mask. I think it's unsettling. This is even more

unsettling. In the People. The Jamaican Prime Minister who has

announced she wants a Republic, and the Prime Minister is hugging

Prince Harry saying, "I want the Queen to quit" and Prince Harry

saying, "So does my dad." The Queen is the symbolic head of state.-Of-h

of -- of the Commonwealth. Jenny. Can I move on to the next story.

please yes. This is about the Tories suggesting they are going to

reintroduce the Thatcherite right to buy policy on Council houses. At

a time when we have an incredibly dysfunctional housing polite in

Britain, because of the economic situation and mortgages, actually

selling off Council houses is the worst thing you could do.

Greens in favour of an extra tax on big houses? That's not specifically

our policy. At the moment there is a story in the Sunday Telegraph

that the Lib Dems are split over the tycoon tax or the Manchesteron

tax. Honestly, why not have both? We have an incredibly unequal

society, why not address it. We have to lift people out of society

and we need every measure we can find. An interesting thought.

Danny? An interesting story is a viral video about the leader of the

Lord of the army in Uganda coming out? And he used children? He's

highest on the list of wanted people. It a's a half-hour video

promoted through social media. In fact I found out about it, because

Stephen Fry Tweeted about it earlier this week. And this video

has 67,000 downloads in the past few days. And it's being talked

about as the sort of new way of campaigning, of getting people

behind a campaign like this. But it has been controversial because

you're encouraged to give money and get back wrist bands and there is

some questioning about where the money is spent. And if you give

money quickly enough this guy will be found. That's right and the

point about the Lords' resistance army is they're not active in

jugged jugged at the moment. And this piece also talks about the

vanity of celebrities who have been tweeting about it and putting it on

their Facebook page. It makes them feel good. Yes. And it has been the

anniversary of the Japanese tsunami and earthquake disaster. I haven't

seen the Mail on Sunday before today, I didn't go out and rush out

and buy it but it does have a very good article on page 29. It's by

somebody who is pro-nuclear. And he talks about the devastating

possibility of having to pay billions and billions for clean-up.

And he says that Sellafield is a stinking pond. It's a fairly

damning article, I woe say. It's about the true cost of nuclear, you

would argue? Exactly and this Government is now planning a new

generation of nuclear stations. Backtracking on all their talk

about sustainable energy and wind aerge. We'll be talking about wind

farms later on. Danny, you've picked up something to make all

maefrd men sqirm? Absolutely. This is a piece of research that shows

that only one in ten married men do more washing and cleaning and

domestic chores than their wives. And strangely, we're both sitting

on the sofa today. Absolutely. In fact, I just did a load of washing

before I came to the studio today. It shows that the gendered roles in

the home continue. And you have a story about women executives I

notice. Yes, well in the home, I don't think it matters what you do,

as long as you do morals the same amount. I don't think it matters

whether one does the ironing and one brings in the coal, it's

whether you're both working. But this is about the FTSE giants, the

number of women on their boards have gone down. In spite of all the

Government promises and, you would think, all the more talented women

out there now. And why this is happening, I have no idea. It seems

they're closing their eyes to some of the best people on the planet.

Only time for a couple more stories. Danny? Another internet-related

story. This time about the head of NATO command in Europe apparently

having information about him retrieved by people who set up

false Facebook accounts in his name and are illiciting information from

friends and family. And it hints at the emerging security threats by

social media. NATO has been one of the leading organisations in

getting messages out there..7 have difficulty with this notion

that NATO leaders have a Facebook and they're out there chatting to

people. Have they nothing better to do? Presumably, it's about getting

ahead of the game and being "out there." But people probably do it

for them. I hope you're right. Your last story. This is Queen's Park

Rangers not getting a goal even though it went over the line. I'm

an Arsenal fan, I don't know if that's lost me thousands of votes,

but I care about justice and this is injustice, the fact that they

would have scored the opening goal which would have changed the nature

of the match. And you think the technology should be used?

Instantly. There is no need for a referee not to know what happened.

Thank you very much. Spring is here, and should we get our shorts out?

Temperatures of 20 degrees are forecast for the coming week, let's

find out if it is true. Over to find out if it is true. Over to

Laura. Watch this space. But, yes, you're

right. Beautiful conditions outside and it's pleasantly warm in the

sunshine. Ten degrees at the moment. Sunny skies through eastern and

southern areas, but cloudier in the north. Through the day, southern

counties where we have the cloud it will slowly be nibbled away and the

sunshine will show its hand, but for north-west Scotland it remains

breezy and damp and drizzly. But the north-east of England is sunny.

In southern counties, where it was a little misty to start, the

afternoon pans out to be dry and bright with plenty of sunshine.

In the west, through the Bristol channel, cloud building up and a

little grey in Cardiff, but inland, warm in the sunshine. Northern

Ireland, cloudy initially, but skies will brighten through the

afternoon. And through the week, the warm weather continues well

into next week. So, an dree, we're looking forward to -- and you,

we're looking forward to seeing we're looking forward to seeing

those legs! Now, with the race for the Mayor of

London coming up, people say we should pay more attention to the

election, because whoever wins they will have a influence and if Ken

Livingstone wins, he would be the most senior elected politician in

the country. Ken Livingstone joins me. Welcome.

Morning. You would like to cut Tube fares by 7%. Over four years.

the question is, therefore, to cut fares, which I'm sure everybody

would like, you would have to pull back some of the improvements that

the Tube needs. If that happened, I wouldn't do it. 7% cuts is 3% of

the transport budget and if you are unable to find 3% of savings and

efficiencies in the budget you shouldn't be in public office. But

we have a cash mountain inside TfL. There is a �300 million surplus?

The budget. But there is a big charge on that, which brings the

surplus down much more than that. So, if you are elected and you look

at the numbers again and you go through the costs and and you find

that wu have to delay or cancel improvements to the Tube you

wouldn't cut fares by 7%. But we're only eight weeks away from the

election. I know what the budget is like I've had somebody going over

the figures. Each year that Boris Johnson has been Mayor he's

underspent. We have underspend on investment and all the projects

that are under way are the ones I started the funding for. Boris

Johnson has only started one project and that's the cable car

across the Thames. And it's turning out to be the most expensive in

human history. I will start working on new transport schemes but they

won't get off the ground until the last year of the Mayorality, and by

that time I hope I will be working with Ed Miliband and not David

Cameron. But the bikes scheme was yours, but it has his name on it.

Yes, it would have been different. Everything that Boris has done is

turning out to be the most expensive in the world. Instead of

spending �300,000, his is �1.5 million. The small things he's done

have ended up a very high price, because he doesn't do the detailed

work on it. You want to bring back educational allowance and you're

saying it's other people's money. And they may not want to spend it.

No. We've been talking to universities and colleges in London.

They have small bursaries and funds that together, if you bring them

together run by the Mayor office you could recent state the

organisation without any charge to others, that is sitting there. What

you haven't got, is the money to distribute it. But nobody has

signed up to this have they, yet? Nobody is going to come out before

the election and say, "We've got this money to give you" because the

outcome of the election is uncertain, it's neck-and-neck.

the Mayor can't force it, can he? No, not force it. But we've had a

really good working relationship with the universities and colleges.

They want the kids to finish their education. You have been forthright

about rich so and sos I can't say the word, about people who have

avoided tax legally and illegally and then it turned out that you

took money and paid it at corporation rate. I get loads of

money all from different sources, you give it to your accountant and

they manage it. You pay corporation tax. If you take it out and spend

it on yourself, you have to pay more. What I'm not doing is paying

income tax on the money I used to pay other people. But for most

people it's straightforward. You pay tax on what you're paid. You

don't create a company. everybody has to have somebody to

do the accounts. No-one can blame their accountant for this? If I was

trying to manage. I have never had vast sources of money from one os,

I do afterdinner speaking and other sources. And I pay the same amount

of tax as I would do if I'd taken out the money in income tax. But I

employ people. That fares scheme we've come up with, it took a

talented economist to sit down and spend a lot of time going over the

books. And I have people looking at the media. I employ two people. No-

one is paying tax on people we employ. And yet so many of your

supporters are offended and disappointed and would like you

simply to pay some money back. I've paid all the tax on the money

that has come to me. But I'm running a small company. I employed

my wife for three years to sit in the attic and type up my

autobiography. I'm paying the normal rate of tax on the money I

take out for myself. But the simple fact is, Boris Johnson had exactly

the same arrangements to handle his earnings from television. Almost

everybody in the media has the same arrangements. I'm not sure if that

is true. Certainly it's one of those arrangements that accountants

have pressed on people, but nonetheless, in the end it is a way

of avoiding paying income tax. you want to avoid tax you need an

off-shore account, like the Barclay Brothers, they don't pay a penny of

tax in Britain. I'm not off-shore. I'm running a small company like

hundreds and thousands of other people. You said nobody should be

allowed to vote in a British election if they are avoiding

paying tax. Absolutely. But that is what you're being hoisted with.

that's the smear company. I've paid the full rate of tax and I'm not

near the full rate of tax. But look where this smear is coming from,

the same journalist who came up with all the headlines that I was

corrupt and my staff were corrupt and millions had gone missing. Two

years later after a police investigation, not a single charge

std up and no-one was convicted or formally charged with anything. It

is a smear campaign because Boris Johnson's team want to talk about

anything butt his policies. And also they have to take about the

hypercharge for fares at the peak hours for travel. If I'm elected I

will be saying stop using fares as a stealth tax. If you are elected

it's also a bit of a referendum on the Labour Party. How important is

your success or failure in a few weeks' time in terms of gauging

that? A huge national significance. If Boris Johnson is reelected

you'll have Cameron on the television saying this is where

we're going and a rejection of Ed Miliband. It will also be a

referendum on the NHS cuts and the direction her' taking the country.

Two-thirds of all the jobs we've lost in this recession have been in

construction. What we should see in this pwhugt is a real house-

building programme to to get people back to work -- Budget. The obvious

debate is not whether you should have a Manson tax or a tycoon tax,

it's putting people back to work. That what is the single thing

Labour has to do in terms of selling itself? We want to put

people back to work. Build homes and upgrade our road system. You

put people back to work. They start paying tax and come off benefit.

Get people back to work. And there's literally, it isn't just in

London, all over Britain, people are on Council waiting lists with

no prospect of getting a home. We could build those homes. You give a

family a decent home to live in, the children have a bedroom to do

their homework in and their health improves. Huge benefits as well as

getting people off the dole and into jobs. Thank you very much.

Let's turn to the Government now where the coalition marriage is

going through a rocky phase. So much so that some commentators are

talking about a breakdown this year or the next. The Liberal Democrats

Spring Conference, which continues today is giving an airing to some

of those contentions. There is energy policy. Over 100

Conservative MPs wrote to the Secretary of State for Energy about

wind farms. Joining me is the new energy secretary, Danny Alexander.

Good morning. Can I ask you about the rate of investment of this

country in wind farms and the subsidies are a rate of folly. That

we're not nearly getting enough efficiency out of the wind farms

and we're spoiling our landscape? Well, I've heard those arguments

and I'm happy to have a debate on the facts. Person in policies are

very important for our country and how to tackle the environment. And

even nuclear. I'm happy to debate all of that, but what I'm not

prepared to do is put our economy at risk. And when you look at all

the different low carbon technologies, whether it's nuclear,

wind or carbon capture and storage, all have risks attached to them and

I'm no Mystic Meg. I'm a politician who doesn't know the future and

therefore I think when it comes to something as important as energy

policy it's important you have a mix, a portfolio, a balance of

different options good forward and that must include, in my view,

renewbles, and onshore and off- shore wind. Nigh that being said

you are pouring tens of millions of pounds of subsidy into the pockets

of some of the country's biggest landowners for wind farms some of

which are producing 10% or 8% in terms of the amount of energy that

they could produce or in theory they could produce. So they are

very, very inefficient. The energy is only there when the wind happens

to be running and we, as taxpayers are pouring money into it. I ask

can the levels of subsidy be right if there is such a boom in wind

farms everywhere? I think there are a lot of wind farms put up for the

benefit of local communities. And through the benefits of onshore and

off-shore wind we're seeing the costs come down. It is kpreefgly

competitive with other low-carbon technologies, off-shore wind. And

in a few years, people are saying we'll see it completely competitive.

This is what a sensible subsidy regime is about. It's about

reducing the cost of these technologies that can power Britain

into the future decades without causing dangerous climate change.

So I think some of the facts you put forward today, I have to tell

you, are not representative of the efficiency of many of the more

modern wind farms which are very effects and increasingly

competitive. On nuclear power, like your pred successful, you've made a

personal U-turn, but seens you have now agreed that nuclear power is a

good thing what is the logic in producing wind farms but not

nuclear power stations where, afterall, the energy does arrive?

There is a very clear logic. Nuclear has had subsidies for

decades. It is not a new technology, it is a mature technology and

therefore it has to come to a point where there is no subsidy and I

support the Government's policy in this area that I have inherited.

Renewbles are different. These are developing. They are incredibly

important and if Britain can get ahead of the game, not just by

investing these technologies for our own energy security needs but

also developing the industry so we can sell them to the world, this is

about huge numbers of green jobs. It's about investment and exports.

And I know across the Government when you talk to Conservative

colleagues and Liberal Democrat colleagues they know that

developing these new technologies it's really good for our economic

future. Are you in favour of a tycoon tax? I think it's a really

good idea. I've been involved in developing Liberal Democrat tax

policy over demise and we agree there are too many loopholes and

reliefs that the rich benefit from. We've had a consistent policy over

that time to try and tighten up those loopholes and the great thing

about the tycoon tax, and I haven't seen the details. That's for the

Chancellor and others. Sure. But just in broad terms. You're asking

me to speculate on a proposal that the Chancellor is drawing up and I

haven't seen. I'm just asking you what it is you're in favour of?

Let's be clear. It's basically the idea that millionaire and multi-

motor yals should pay a basic level of tax. And shouldn't be able to

pay less tax than hard-working families. And I think the Liberal

Democrat view in the coalition is clear on this. We want to take the

lowest paid out of income tax all together and we want to see big

cuts for the middle and in order to fund that we have to make sure that

the rich and wealthy are paying their dues. And I think the notion

of a tycoon tax addresses that issue. But Vince Cable doesn't seem

at all convinced about this. And he thinks it's a diversion from the

mansion tax and one that you're more likely to get through the

coalition? I think a mansion tax is a good idea. Would it be an either

or? No, I don't think it is. There are many ways to tax the wealthy

and make sure they pay their dues. Labour failed to tax the rich and

wealthy properly and we, the Liberal Democrats in the coalition

will make sure we change that. The tycoon tax seems to me to put a

floor under the tax allowances and loopholes that people use to avoid

tax. I think that's a good idea. And you'd like to see that plus the

mansion tax or is it an either/or? You're asking me to reveal...No,

Just personal preference? To be honest. I support any measure that

ensures the rich and wealthy pay their dues. There are many ways to

skin a cat and I think as we debate these, not just in this Budget but

future Budgets there are ideas from different parts. But I'm really

keen on delivering tax cuts for the low paid and tax cuts for hard-

working families across the board. The fact that our tax policy would

deliver �60 a month off the ordinary tax bill and that's a huge

benefit and would deliver real relief for people in troubles as we

clear up Labour's legacy. So there is clearly some stkpeerplt as

exactly how to go ahead -- disagreement as exactly how to go

ahead, but "fat cats" will be skinned from both ends. I think

that's an acknowledgement Over the years, we've been reading

about the Arab Spring, but in Zimbabwe Mugabe seems to be still

going strong. There has been no real reform. So how can he be

challenged? Bin Freeth was a white farmer? Zimbabwe who took the

unprecedented step of a legal case to prevent the seizure of his

family farm. And he joins me now with the Archbishop of York, Dr

John Sentamu who has been a long- standing campaigner against Mugabe.

Thank you very much for both of you coming in. Your film was made by

your family on hand-held cameras. You had a family farm which was

your wife's family. How long had they been on this land? Since the

early '70s and then it was given to the Government under a certificate.

So we carried on developing the farm and employing people and the

story then went on. And it was something of a community. A lot of

people living on and around and depending on that farm and then you

got more and more aggressive attacks and you took the case

against Mugabe personally can you explain what the court was? This

was a civic tribunal set up as a result of the treaty signed in

19926789 but the court only came into being in 2007. And so we were

the very first case into that human rights court in 2007.

eventually you won your case but at a terrible, terrible price. You

were beaten nearly to death and your father-in-law did die from his

wounds and the farm was then burned? Indeed. It was a pretty

horrific time. But I think the judgment that we got, we won all

the points in law. But obviously on the ground it was horrific. Let's

see a clich from the documentary. - - clip from the documentary. This

is you confronting one of Mugabe's ministers who arrives on your farm.

This is my home. This is your home. We've paid transfer duties to the

Zimbabwe government. We voted we didn't steal it. You take hold the

land for us. You steal from us. You bring sanctions and you want to

cripple us. It will never be a colony again, this country. This

film may start to rekidgesed a bit more interest in this country. It

seems we can't tolerate more than one set of headlines by dictators

at any one time, doesn't it, Archbishop? Yes, the problem of

Mugabe has been there for a very long time and there are fits and

starts about it, but unfortunately there has been no sustained

campaign. Particularly from the countries surrounding it. On there,

the clip goes on to say and Mugabe is caught on camera saying,

"Zimbabwe is mine and no-one will take it away from me." Now once you

get a head of state thinking like that. And Zimbabwe is now very much

in the hands of other people who have come in, like the Chinese.

Chinese are all over. The mining concessions that at the moment

they're grabbing are massive. is the mood in Harare? We are.

You're no longer farming. But you're still staying there, despite

what happened to you? What is the atmosphere at the moment? Rel,

Harare is very different to what is happening in the rural areas. The

rural areas are very, very tension and not human rights people can get

there and there is massive starvation this year again and

we'll rely on the international community to feed those people and

we'll be going into an eelection where there will be violence. At

the moment, the spotlight is off Zimbabwe but the state machinery is

going forward to commit the atrocities that have happened in

the past, again, and again and again. How important is it for you,

Archbishop, to mobilise Church opinion, particularly in Africa.

You have some respected Church voices still there? I think those

churches have been very vocal. The Archbishop of Cape Town, who went

to the capital of Zimbabwe he's been very vocal and the churches

are now united in their great opposition. And what I did, when I

saw Ben's film with 500 people, I'm a person of action. I said please

tie a handkerchief and that knot is tied and will not be untied until

Mugabe is gone. So this is in my pocket and I pray every day.

this is the next step, you took your dog collar off once. Yes.

There is a story in the paper that the Government is going to argue

that Christians do not have the right to wear a cross at work.

Therefore people who are sacked for wearing crosses that should be

legal. What do you think about that? My view is that this is not

the business of Government, actually. Because they are

beginning to medal in areas they ought not to. I think they should

leave that to the courts to make a judgment. Because the Human Rights

Act actually says that people should be able to manifest their

faith in teaching and working and belief. If somebody wanted to

manifest their fact that they are a Christian, they are signed with a

cross at their baptism. And they know they're a Christian but they

want to show it by waying a cross. So the Government should not raise

the bar so high it is unjust. you agree with the Catholic stand

on gay marriage? The position to me, I think the tone of the bishop

Nickials is interesting, because I think we should be changing

attitudes. So you think the tone was not right. No, the tone was

very right. But not before? He used words that I wouldn't want to use,

because in the end you ignore the issue about why marriage as an

institution is necessary, it is good for the stability of families

and society. Now that doesn't mean, because I'm one who supports civil

partnerships, because we remove the unjust things about them, because

legally they were discriminated against and socially they were and

all of those have been removed. And there is a difference. There is a

difference between civil partnership and marriage and that

difference done mean one is better than the other, but they're

different. And men and women are complementary to one another and

therefore I would have thought if the Government were trying to

change the law, it isn't simply saying we're going to allow it to

happen, but the definition of marriage is in the 1662 prayer book

which went through both parliaments. So they would have to change the

articles of the Church of England? They would have to, but the only

people who can do it is the General Synod. What would be your message

to the Prime Minister? I think my message would be what Charles Moor

said in a lovely article he said massive inactivity. So don't press

ahead. No, 78% of the population do not believe this is a priority to

become law by 2015. I suppose the other side in the end would say

it's about a word, the word "marriage." Gay people have enough

to cope with in this society perhaps it would be the Christian

thing in the church to some -- show some masterly words on the subject.

No, I have a letter here. This is from somebody who has been in a

civil partner and he said I find myself agreeing with you. I believe

that marriage is for a man and a woman, and I personally don't feel

a desire to emulate it, I accept my partnership is different as long as

I don't suffer from any discrimination legally and socially.

So if you're going to listen to all the voices, for me it isn't a

question of equality in the end e, it's a question of justice. And

once matters are just you need to do this then. You are both going to

be speaking at an event this week. Those people who want to do

something for Zimbabwe. Is this going to be in London? Yes, at the

Royal ghee graphcal society on the 14th. Thank you very much. Now the

news headlines. A national ceremony of remembrance has been held in

Tokyo in honour of the 20,000 people dead or missing following

the earthquake and tsunami that devastated north-east Japan one

year ago. A minute's silence was held to mark the exact time the

coastline was hit. Roman Catholic Church in England

and Wales is stepping up its campaign against the Government's

plan to legal lice same-sex marriages. In a letter, the two

most senior Archbishops say the move would reduce the significance

of marriage and that Roman Catholics have a duty to ensure it

doesn't happy. Now back to Andrew, but what is coming up after this

programme. Join us for a special edition of

The Big Question, we'll be asking one very big question. Is

fundamentalism undermining faith? See you at ten on BBC One For a

singer-songwriter about to release his debut album when critics

compare you to the likes of Otir Redding and Bill Withers, it must

be music to your ears. It has rhythms of Uganda, his homeland.

Michael Kiwanuka has just won high accolade and he is playing

festivals in the summer. And clearly he is on a roll. Welcome,

than you for coming in. Than you for having me. Now you are

interested in the sounds you first heard when you were much younger,

the early '60s sounds. And you recorded that music too? Yes, I

heard them and they did something to me. And you're doing an amazing

number of fets values. Yes, I like being on the road. We're going to

hear from you in a minute. We're almost out of time. Thank you to

all my guests. Join me next Sunday when, just ahead of the Budget, my

guests will include the Shadow Chancellor. Now, Michael Kiwanuka

with I'm Getting Ready. # Oh, my, I didn't know what it

means to believe # Oh, my, I didn't know what it

means to believe # You if I hold on tight is it

true? # Would you take care of all that I

# Oh, Lord, I'm getting ready to believe

# Then we'll be waiving hands, singing freely

# Singing standing tall, it's now coming easy

# Oh, no more looking down, honey, can't you see me?

# Oh, Lord, I'm getting ready to believe had been

# Oh, Lord, then we'll be waiving hands singing freely

# Singing standing tall, it's now coming easy