12/05/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

This is BBC News. The headlines: The former prime minister of

Pakistan declares victory in the country's election.

Seen in each -- senior gnashers issue what they call an

unprecedented warning, saying nursing levels are unsafe and of

being ignored. Conservative ministers are being

advised to abstain from a vote over a failure to guarantee a referendum

on the UK's the EU membership. Around 100 backbench MPs could

oppose Government policy. In the next hour the British

scientists who have crossed an ancient wheat with a modern one to

come -- create a new strain. The week could increase crop yields by

a third. Prince Harry takes part in

America's Warrior Games for injured servicemen and women. He says he

hopes to bring the competition to Pakistan's former prime minister,

Nawaz Sharif, appears to have won a third term in the country's general

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 74 seconds

election. The party of Imran Khan chety.

Good morning N Pakistan, unofficial election results show that the

former Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif is heading for victory following

Saturday's elections. The party of the former cricket star, Imran Khan

is emerging as the second largest. Voter turnout has been put at nearly

60%. The highest in the country in nearly 60 years. Votes will still

being counted but the result will be being counted but the result will be

highly significant. Turkey has warned it will take any necessary

measure to protect itself, after two car bombs exploded in a town on the

Turkish border with Syria. At least 40 people were killed in the town of

Reyhanli and at least 100 were injured. The Turkish Government

suspects a group, linked to Syria's intelligence agency, of carrying out

the attacks. Here, about 100 Tory MPs are thought to be preparing to

go against the Government in a Commons vote on a European

referendum this week. A Downing Street source has confirmed that

ministers are being advised to abstain in the vote which criticises

the Government's failure to include legislation guaranteeing a

referendum on EU membership in last week's Queen's Speech. A group of

senior nurses says staffing levels on wards in many hospitals in

England are unsafe. The Safe Staffing Alliance says nurses are

regularly being asked to look after more than eight patients each

substantially increasing the risk of harm or death. The Government says

hospitals are best placed to decide nursing leader in Salford, say low

levels of staffing must be publicly levels of staffing must be publicly

recorded and investigated. You can't ask somebody to do a job

and then tie their hands behind their back. So, I think if we want

nurses to be caring, compassionate, and deliver safe care to our

patients and their families, then we've got to give enough staff in

order to deliver that. Government says it's the hospitals,

not ministers who should decide how many nurses are on duty. In the

future there will be a Chief Inspector of Hospitals in England

who'll take action if wards don't have enough staff.

Prince Harry has taken part in the torch relay at America's Warrior

Games, a competition for injured servicemen and women. The Prince,

who are in Colorado as part of his nine-day US tour, also joined in a

game of sitting volleyball with some athletes. Next week he'll travel to

New Jersey to visit communities affected by hurricane Sandy.

That's all from me. That's all from me.

Now time to get back to James. The front pages are all rather

nostalgic. It is the Sunday Times Tory civil warrer results over

Europe vote. We will talk to Michael Gove about that later. It is over

whether ministers can vote against the Queen's Speech. Gordon Brown is

weighing into the debate about independence. The Observer Lord

Young saying recession is a good timer whether ministers can vote

against the Queen's Speech. Gordon Brown is weighing into the debate

about independence. The Observer Lord Young saying recession is a

good time to make the most of low labour costs causing controversy.

The Sunday Express. We have got to pull out our own teeth apparent y.

Dentistry is getting too expensive and The Mail on Sunday more on their

campaign against closures of accident and emergency departments

around the country and the Sun on Sunday child sex perv from

EastEnders. Welcome. Lots and lots of Europe. You can't escape it.

Well, you can't escape it. Well, the thing that I think is incredible.

This is a vote on something that was not in the Queen's Speech and David

Cameron who won't be here for the vote, because he will be in America,

has suggested that the brave thing to do is abstain on it. So it just -

it is ridiculous. The word bonkers features quite, well besides

turmoil, bonkers might be the most used word in the papers this

morning. I just think it is one of these things where the only person

who will be happy is Nigel Farage. He will be looking at this and just

loving. Maureen, do you think any of this

matters? The talk of people voting against the Queen's Speech gets

people excited. Does it touch your life? Oh, marginally. No, I think

you are right. It just plays into the idea of politicians time wasting

and being rather silly as you will talk about later with the

politician's wife. It is not what we need at the moment, is it really? We

need a referendum, I guess. I think we should just have the referendum

nowish. P would put a lot of journalists out of a job? The other

argument is whether we are going to have this vote on something, again

we don't know what is going to happen, because Dave has to

renegotiate after getting releged. Now the -- re-elected. Now, the big

thing is maybe it will be a year earlier. I think it is taking a a

false argument to a new level. It will give journalists a lot of

work because they will be able to explain to us why we need to be in

or out of Europe. Well, let's move on. We will talk about Europe later.

I have to do this. Let's move on from Europe. Are you kidding? Nick

Clegg has given a thing where accused the Conservative Party of

endless naval gazing. For a Lib Dem to accuse the Conservatives, I mean

obviously it is true, for the Lib Dems, that is - if that was brand

they would have nothing to do. We are going to talk about this

more. Stephen Hawking. Well, this is from the Sunday Times. There is not

a lot in the papers. It is either Europe or the man with the three

women in the basement or Sir Alex Ferguson, you know. But this Rod

Liddle has a go and I'm on his camp because Stephen Hawking is refusing

to go to a conference in Israel because it is Israel. What is going

on in the world where Israel is regarded as a pariah State? Nobody

bans people going to the other countries that are actually

persecuting their own people. I am looking for the demonstrations about

Syria. I am looking for rth North Korean people being banned. I am

looking for other and I don't see it. There is a hysteria out there. I

am sorry, I don't want to call it anti-semitism. He has been lent upon

by Palestinian friends to ban academics. This is a Stalinist point

of view. This kind of thing has been

happening for a long time, hasn't it? In other countries around the

world. It is a way they protest, isn't it now? Well, it is a curious

kind of left-wing, I am left-wing. It happened and it is a hysteria and

it is fanned and he says, he points out and it is worth pointing out

that Israel created created so much in the world of science that Stephen

Hawking wouldn't able to speak if he didn't have the chip created in

Israel. I would like the hysteria to stop. If they want to talk to the

Palestinians then you don't go about that by ban banning debate and

academics. Ann, driverless cars? This is a link to Europe. I feel

Europe is a driverless car! You can't stop. I'm going to stop

that now. I find this story. The reality of the driverless car is now

apparently come closer. David Willetts who is not a driverless

car, but sometimes you wonder! In California they allow driverless

cars on public roads. A lot goes on in California. I don't think we need

to copy that. But he is going to change the regulation that would

allow driverless cars on public roads. This regulation roads might

say that a human has to be in a car driving it. The whole idea that in

the future we are going to have cars that we don't need to be there. We

must nb the back or something! don't believe a word and then ten

years later they happen and you see one of these things driving past

your front door? That would be really frightening. It is like one

of my nightmares driverless cars especially in England. California

roads, there is a lot of... There is a lot of space. How close are we to

a driverless car? There is a robot car.

Maureen, Helen Mirren is still making headlines? She is good. She

is a good PR for herself. She is such a geezer. She stalked out of

her play and told the drummers to shut up. Now it is a point about how

much actors have control, have power of what they are doing. We have

another article here in The Mail on Sunday which is about Isla Fisher

who almost drowned in a tank because somebody told her to. Helen is great

because she takes control and I have done that myself, I have stalked out

at the chocolate factory in a 19 century wig to stop a party that was

being held for skins to which I was invIEtds. Something gets into dish

invited. Something gets into you. you think she was in character?

must have been, except the language was vile, wasn't it.

You are on stage in North London yourself at the minute? I will be in

July. Yes, I will be back in a newly built theatre, the Park Theatre in

Finsbury Park and it is a play by Oliver Cotton.

The audiences should be ready. You are willing to intervene? I am not

for intervening when phones go off. My way would be - "there sounds as

if there is a lot of per cushion outside. ." I admire her.

Archbishop of Canterbury and Abu ka tad tadder? The new archbishop is

everywhere. I am unsurprised to discover ab Abu kwp Quatader. We

have the archbishop telling us about his life as archbishop where he

takes the bus. I hope he takes it in his outfit. He says he shops at

Oxfam. I think it is a breath of fresh air. But the crook is the

bridge between Abu Qatada. Very sharp.

Smoking and pregnancy. All pregnant women, say the Sunday Times in the

headline - will be asked to take breath tests for carbon monoxide to

check if they are telling the truth about smoking. This is NICE, the

National Institute. It says - midwives should test all women with

carbon monoxide kits at antenatal appointments and anyone with a high

reading will be referred to smoking cessation services. We are losing

all power. Isn't it a good thing? Should pregnant women... Well, to be

tested on whether you are lying about it. It is hard to quit

smoking. We are all products of mother's who smoked. It was a much

gentler calmer world that you could go - before you hit someone in the

eye with a pointy stick. I'm not condoning smoking. I'm just saying

we are grown-ups usually when we are pregnant, can we be trusted. There

is enough going on that you are frightened about, shall I

breast-feed? Shall I give them the triple jab? It is insulting to

women. The front page of the Observer, Lord Young getting himself

into hot water He specialises in that. He that is his purpose in

life. He has had to resign once over things that he said. I think

personally, if he really believes this, it's unbelievable that...

Recession is a good time because you can hire people because wages are

cheaper. It cuts the cost. Is it a statement of the obvious or

something that is genuinely offensive as trade unions are

pointing out this morning? I think it is a statement of what is

happening. I mean, wages have gone down, but it is not a good thing for

the people with the lower wages, quite obviously and since those

people are voters, you would think that that would put something in his

mind there. You know, obviously the idea is that everyone, you know,

growth should be happening. The idea is not to highlight this kind of

stuff and to celebrate it and perhaps encourage it. A quick final

story? This is on holiday where you go script writing in Italy, med

Taiting in India, cookery in Asia, and yoga in Spain and gardening in

Tuscany with Sir Roy Strong. What do you do on holiday? I have been in

the gal apagos Islands, damned hard work.

See Seeing blue footed boobies. After you have the holiday you then

have to go on holiday. As you probably noticed, the weather

can't make up its mind at the moment. Have we had our summer

already? Or will it be rain from now on in?

on in? Helen Willets can tell us.

I really hope we haven't had our summer already but the next few days

looks distinctly unappetising. Today we are seeing the best of the

sunshine now. It is zoontly turning cloudier and wetter as I speak. --

it is constantly. It'll be soggy in the west of

Scotland and eastern England will join in this afternoon. Make the

most of the sunshine. It will be cool underneath the breezy, cloudy,

damp conditions. Behind the rain it'll stay rather damp and drizzly

and misty for the likes of Northern Ireland. Not great news for the Ten

Tours in the south-west later today. In the south-east, after early

sunshine temperatures could reach 14 or is a but as the rain arrives it

turns much cooler. -- 14 or 15. There might be late brightness

across Scotland and Northern Ireland but at the same time a strong wind

will rush in heavy showers, hail, thunder and sleet and snow overnight

in the hills of Scotland. Cold enough for a frost overnight. Fairly

chilly further south. Tomorrow looks drier in the south. For the north,

it is cold, windy, showery. That continues into Tuesday. Still snow

on the hills, whilst further south, Tuesday potentially could bring wet

and windy weather T doesn't look appetising for the next couple of

After the economy, it is immigration that is worrying voters most. That

at least is what the opinion polls suggest and the surge in support for

UKIP appears to confimplt the Government has set out its latest

plans in the Queen's Speech. Landlords will have to check the

immigration status of their tennants. There will be another

clampdown on so-called health tourism and more pressure on the

courts to deport foreign criminals. I'm joined by Shadow Home Secretary,

Yvette Cooper. Do you believe immigration is too high? We said the

pace of immigration was too fast. It is right to bring the level down

which is why we have supported some of the measures the Government has

introduced. For example, a greater restriction on people coming here

with high qualifications but coming to do lower-skilled jobs. So there

are things like that you should do. We recognise that there were things

that we did, for example, around not having transitional controls on

eastern European migration, which we should have done. When you say the

pace of immigration was too high, does that mean you think immigration

was too high under Labour and it is too high now? Well as I said, we

think the levels should come down, which is why we are supporting some

of the measures the Government has introduced but you also have to look

at... You never use the phrase - immigration is too high. I just Z I

talked about because you had the problem, for example, of not having

transitional controls for Eastern Europe. But you have to look at what

kind of immigration you have. So I think, for example, illegal

immigration has been a growing problem. There should be much

stronger action to deal with that. The Government is not doing that.

But at the same time what the Government is doing is putting off

legitimate university students who bring billions of pounds into the

economy. You have to look at the kind of immigration as well as the

level and pace. If you think immigration must come down, by how

much? I think there is a problem with the approach the Government is

taking, because they've said they've set this target for net migration,

which, in practice, includes a lot of British citizens. So, for

example, the way in which net migration has fallen over the last

few years, two-thirds is British citizens, for example, it is fewer

Brits coming back home and also more Brits leaving. That isn't a disputed

statistic. There is a lot of evidence. The ONS has put out

figures that suggests that it is student numbers that are making a

greater impact It is a big issue about students. That is right. My

point is this, if... If you object to the Government's figures of net

migration, choose your number. have to look at a series of

different things. We have said low-skilled migration should come

down. By how much? What numbers are we talking about? The Government has

attempted to set a target but what it has done is proved irresponsible.

Instead, what they have ended up doing is ignore illegal immigration

because it is not included. You would want to get illegal

immigration down as close to zero. That should be the long-term

objective. Illegal immigration is something nobody wants to see.

That's why we have said you want different action in order to tackle

illegal immigration but you've also got to look at the impact of

immigration in the labour market and so on and you have to recognise

that, actually, we have benefited in Britain for over very many

generations, from people who have come to this country, contributed,

built great businesses, worked on the national health service, won

Olympic gold medals. So, immigration has to be controlled and managed but

you have to recognise its importance for Britain's future. You say you

support some of the measure the Government has proposed in the

Queen's Speech. Let's go through some to see what you think. Do you

believe the Government is right to say that new migrants should not

have total access to the NHS, before they spent some time here paying

taxes? We don't know what they are actually saying. Well you support

the principle? No, we don't know what the Government is planning to

do at all at the moment. You are right they made a big fanfare and

announced a lot of things and RAFFed up the rhetoric but we have had no

practical specific measures. -- ramped up the rhetoric. And we are

being told the Immigration Bill won't be published for four months.

I don't think it is responsible to ramp up rhetoric and not have

practical measures. We have set a series of practical measures you

should introduce. On something like the NHS, there are already legal

requirements on hospitals, for example, to recover costs for people

who shouldn't be entitled to free NHS care. But, the Government - all

they have told us they would do on the NHS, is do an audit of the

extent of the problem. Why didn't they do that before they have said

what they are going to do about it. What you don't want is to have

people arriving in A&E and ask for their papers, in the same way people

can be asked for their credit card in bhaeshg or other countries. The

Government was specific about saying landlords should check the

immigration status of their tennants. Do you support that?There

is much more you could do around private landlords. There are

problems, you have, for example, private landlords who may have

overcrowded housing with foreign workers in, that then actually

becomes used to undercut the minimum wage and things like that. So I

think there is a genuine problem here. But, again, the Government

hasn't told us how they would do this. We have called for a statutory

register of private landlords that would allow you to do all kind of

things and look at standards issues and so on. If you don't have that,

how would it be enforced? The Government doesn't know who the

private landlords are in this country? How are they going to ask

them to set particular tests for tennants? I think there is no

practical detail about how the Government would make this work. I

think that is a problem. Do you believe that Abu Qatada will return

to Jordan. Do you think there is a process under way? I really hope so.

I think this has gone on far too long. It is a really enfortunate is

a ga. The legal process has two on too long. -- unfortunate saga. I

wish Abu Qatada had made his statement years earlier that he

would return voluntarily. Are you confident he will go? We'll wait to

see that it is not just a legal employ. I hope he goes. -- a legal

ploy. We want him to face a fair trial in Jordan. This weekend, Ed

Miliband said it would be wrong to offer people an in-out referendum on

Europe. Why should people not have a say? We have said the most important

thing right now, and it is what people are saying to us in the

doorsteps and polls, is to get the economy going. You have to get

growth and businesses going and investment. People want a say.The

problem with what the Government has proposed is anoncing a referendum

for four or five years' time, is you have huge uncertainty for businesses

at a time when you should get the economy growing. I don't think you

should do things that put that at stake. Instead we have a frenzy

going on in the Tory Party about a vote this week. You know, utterly

incomprehensible. You have Government ministers potentially

voting against their own Queen's Speech. You need cool, calm heads

and statesman-like behaviour at a time like this. I don't think that's

what David Cameron is showing. Is there anybody in your party saying -

why not call for a referendum, it might divide the Government, the

Conservatives and it means you can argue your case for membership of

the European Union? Well, look, there is legislation in place that

provides for referendums, depending on what happens in future but the

priority now, we are very clear, has to be getting people into jobs.

Let's have a guaranteed job for young peel, rather than leaving them

to languish on unemployment benefit and not get them into work. Let's

build 100 thousand houses and repeal this really damaging regulation on

privatisation of the NHS. There are practical things the Government

could do in this Queen's Speech. They are turning their back on it

and fighting each other. Thank you for joining us this morning.

Now Lord Browne, the former Chief Executive of BP, is one of Britain's

foremost business leaders. Steeped in the global energy industry. A

physicist by training, he has written a book about the seven

chemical lots which have shaped our world and his career.

The elements covered include gold, silicon, uranium and of course,

carbon. Lord Browne came into the studio recently to discuss the seven

elements with my colleague, Sophie Raworth, starting with carbon

because he says it gets such a bad rap. China couldn't have got as far

as they have got without cold and oil and gas and the United States, I

think oil has defined freedom. The freedom to choose where to live,

where to go and how to get there. Carbon has an incredibly destructive

side to it, doesn't it, in terms of humans, of greed, all kinds of

things? Oh, everything. Death, accidents, mining coal is one of the

most dangerous things that you can do. The changes to our atmosphere

with carbon dioxide and wars in the Middle East and theft of money,

corruption in all parts of the world, some of them in the early

days in the United States and then in later days in Russia and the

in later days in Russia and the Middle East. A lot of people

concentrating at the moment on shale gas, practising for shale gas S that

gas, practising for shale gas S that the answer? It is an answer. But

fracking is a good thing to do. It can be done very safely and very

cleanly. It is not new. In my book, I make the point it was invented by

the Colonel Roberts Torpedo Company after the American civil war. It

involves putting water and sand at high pressure into rocks and making

holes in the rocks and allowing whatever is in the rocks to flow

out. In the case of the United States, that's natural gas. Mostly

natural gas which made a revolution in the energy mix of the US.

But it transformed fortunes for the US, hasn't it? Current production

levels they have a century's worth of supply. That couldn't happen

here, could it? We don't know. It is too early to tell. What is clear is

there is plenty of gas locked up in shale in the UK. Certainly up in

near Blackpool. There is plenty of gas like that. How much we can

produce remains to be seen. I think quite a bit of it it can and it will

be good. It will reduce our balance of payments. It will add jobs. Do

all these things. But we are a very different country

to America. We have less space and we are packed in in this country and

there are a lot of people who don't like the idea of fracking? There is

no idea it can be done safely, but the communities and the population

remain to be persuaded and remain to be shown that it can be done to the

benefit for their benefit and for the benefit of everybody else.

You say there is no magic button when it comes to energy. You talk

about uranium in your book. In terms of nuclear energy, something you are

nervous about? The problem with nuclear power and uranium, it is

great if it works, but there is a dread in people's minds that one

small chance of an accident occurring, it can be catastrophic

and people hark back to the use of uranium in bombs. In atomic bombs

and nuclear bombs starting with her rosh ma which is the definition of

the modern age in some ways. What has this country got to do to

stop us running out of energy supplies? Don't pick a winner too

early. Many people are prone to sailing "policy is about making

choices. Let's go for nuclear. Let's abandon oil. Let's abandon

something". It is too early to tell. You have got to let all the horses

run at once. You have got to make the choices on economics and the

true cost, the cost of pollution and the cost of carbon and the cost of

setting right the interruption to the landscape that takes place when

you make something or do something. So it will be a mix of renewables,

of nuclear, of gas, I hope, gas should make a big crown courts and

of oil and of biomass, all of the above.

You keep seeing headlines of how Britain is in danger of the lights

going out. Do you think that's true? Are we close to running out of

energy? No. I think it is a statement of if we don't do

something then in the future we will probably run out of energy, but

there is sometime, we need to get on and we need to make sure that we

absorb all the changes that are taking a place in the world. After

all, five years ago gas from shale in the United States was very small,

indeed and five years ago, we thought we were going to run out of

oil in the world. That's not true. We will never run out of oil in a

sensible, reasonable way and neither gas. So things change quickly. We

need to recognise those changes in thinking about what we do.

Lord Browne, thank you very much. Lord Browne speaking to Sophie

Raworth. One of the most talked about dramas on TV a has been The

Politician's Husband. It stars David Tennant who walks out of Government

in order to bid for the leadership. He expects his closest friend and

ally to follow him and help seize the crown, but he is double crossed.

Well, Ed Stoppard is here. First, a of the action.

Well, let's take long, I am due at Number Ten. The reception for Putin.

Is that your reward, is it? How was it again? Bruce, resign. I will be

in Number Ten by the recess, you said. He who wields the knife never

wears the crown. Heseltine learned that lesson.

It wasn't me who wielded the knife, was it in? Did you do any

preparation for this are part by talking to politicians and coming to

Westminster? I did do some preparation. I was in the rather

privileged position of having a politician in my family who was Oona

King and I did collar Oona and it was mainly to try and get an

impression of how things worked behind closed doors and what the

kind of pat woir is and the protocol is to try and bring veracity to

those scenes that we, the public, are never privy to. She wrote some

diaries, a couple of years ago, if I may plug them for a brief moment?

There is a passage where she recounts being called in to speak to

Alastair Campbell and two others. It would have been Angie Hunt Huntary

it was when -- Hunter and it was Ken was going to run for mayor and they

wanted wanted her to write this piece in the paper saying that Ken

would be terrible for mayor. Campbell said - sct has killed my

career?" Campbell said, " No, it put it back five years." You think a

drama like The Politician's Husband bears a resemblance to reality?

Well, we are sitting here on a morning when the Tories are about to

vote against their own Queen's Speech if I have understood what

happened. So this is one of those cases where fact is stranger than

fiction, I think. It is a few weeks since Chris Huhne, expenses scandal

etcetera, etcetera, so yes, I strongly suspect that it does bear a

resemblance to what really happens in Westminster.

But do you think that politics is a different form of drama? Or do you

think that the power play, the ambition, the intrigue, the ambition

could be just as well set in a bank or a hospital or a shop or do you

think there is something different about politics? Possibly. I mean I

assume that most politicians get into that game to have influence and

sometimes it is a ben in evidence lant influence and I am sure there

are some who get in for the thrill of being able to move the pieces

around, you know, the global map and... But you guys are terrible

schemers. Do you think watching a drama... Are you talking about

actors or politicians? You tell me. Do you not think it turns people off

politics if you have these things like House Of Cards? The politicians

have been doing a descent job of that on their own without any help

from the actors and writers of drama. To be honest, you know, in

some respects it would be well, I am speaking off-the-cuff here. I need

to be slightly careful. It would be a good idea if the public could see

what happens behind closed doors because Australia we get is that

kind of -- all we get is that pre-packaged soundbite. We get the

platitudes and one of the reasons Far aJ is so popular -- Farage is so

popular, he is one thing or the other rather than people huddling on

this middle ground and the public respond to polarized positions.

Many people will know you from your role in Upstairs Downstairs. Yes.

You must have been asked this before. Why do you think it didn't

work as well as Downton? What was the missing ingredient? I don't

know. I would maybe take issue with your question. I suppose if you

simply look at it in terms of how many people watch it then it didn't

work as well Downton Abbey, but anything on BBC Four by definition

doesn't work as well Downtonu but there are different criteria.

But you were happy with it? I was happy with it and sad not to do

anymore. We had a fantastic time making it. Hey, hey-ho.

S Now the,ed, Education Secretary Michael Gove is learning to play the

uk lAly and -- ukulele. He introduced new free schools and

hundreds of academies and modular exams are outed You out and the

three Rs are in. The teaching unions and some leading academics are

unhappy. Well, Michael Gove is with me now. Good morning.

Good morning, James. You have made progress in reforming

schools giving them more autonomy as academies, but you made less

progress reforming exams and the National Curriculum. What's the

problem? Why is it taking a so long? Well, we wanted to make sure that

the first thing we did when we came into power was to give teachers more

power, control and influence over what happens in their classrooms and

over the discipline methods they could use in order to keep order and

then we moved on to the whole question of how those extra freedoms

would be seen in a context of accountability and that's why we had

to change the curriculum and we had to change exams. But one of the

things that struck me is in the same way as there has been popularity for

the structural changes we made, academies and free schools with

teachers in the lead, some of the people who have been most

enthusiastic about the changes we are making to the it curriculum and

to exams have been teachers and academics themselves.

You have got unstuck in some of these areas. In exams you wanted to

bring back officials and C SEs and that -- O-levels and C SEs and you

are back to your third best option of reforming GCSEs. You know, is

this really going to be enough to create the world-class exam system

that you promised in this week's Queen's Speech? I think it will be'

significant step forward -- I think it will be a significant step

forward towards a world-class exam system. I wanted to move to just one

exam board because I thought that would be a way of preventing the

race to the bottom. I had to accept that wasn't the right thing to do.

But we are making big changes. You are right. We are getting rid of

modules and resits. We have less time on assessment and driving

people through the sheep pen of all these tests and actually, what has

been interesting is that while you might say the changes are modest and

I think they are reasonable, there are still lots of people, on the

hard left and in the trade unions who are making a hell of a noise

about it. So it is not without controversy. And it is also the case

and this is the most cheering thing for me that you have got people like

Mark Warner, the Cambridge physics professor writing in the Sunday

Times saying three cheers for what the Government are doing. At last

they restoring rigour to our exams. Well, let's look at your other

changes to the national curriculum. A pub quiz list of facts, to

chronological, too un unanalytical. Are you going to take account of

these criticisms? I couldn't take account of all the criticisms. But I

will take account from people I respect. While there have been one

or two academics, Richard Evans at Cambridge, there has been... One or

two? Yeah, one or two. Many letters to the Observer. Even

people like Simon Sharma? Simon Sharma says the central change we

are making, giving people an understanding of the chronology of

these islands is the right thing to do. And there were letters to the

Times and there was support from some of the most distinguished

historians saying we were doing the right thing and taepers I have

talked to are -- teachers I have talked to are enthusiastic and it is

striking some of the people who were most in despair about the old

history curriculum want me to change. I was drawing attention to

the fact that 15 and 16-year-olds are being taught about the rise of

Hitler which is the area where you Richard Evans made his own by using

Mr Men. What's one website somewhere.

critical is thing is the reason I raised that is because a teacher

brought did to my attention. This is a popular resource being used in

classrooms and it is often the case that people portray this argument as

the minister versus teachers. In fact, what we have are teachers who

are passionate about raising standards, at last feeling there is

a Government on our side and I want to back those people in our schools,

a growing number of young teachers who want to raise standards.

There is balance between knowledge and analysis. Children need to be

taught both and what the critics are saying you have gone too much down

the learning by facts route, but you are not giving kids enough research

skills, analytical skills in this curriculum, it is too much about

British heroes and heroines. Your curriculum talks about the

enlightlement and is it too British? The current history curriculum

doesn't have anything about these French figures. It provides people

with a level of historical knowledge that is just not adequate. To then

go on to use the analytical skills that both of us want to see. You

cannot use them and you cannot write a proper history lesson unless you

understand the chronology, facts and. You can do it in science unless

you have an understand of the basic principles that underspin it.

witch you gave a speech saying 17-year-old girls should read

Middlemarsh and not Twie scoot light. What right do you have to say

that I think I have every right to say we have to raise standards. I

personally believe if children are reading anything, it is a good thing

but we shouldn't settle for children reading merely fiction that is

assumed to be revented to them today or easy to access. -- relevant. We

should demand high standards of every child. One of the problems we

have had in the past if there is an assumption that books like

Middlemarch or plays like Shakespeare for books by yenchts ate

s are for a minority. I know from my background that children from humble

homes, when they are given the chance to understand the power of

great literature or the wrenching power of great music, they respond.

And the dumbed down curriculum has assumed children can only be treated

as if they are infants even to 15 or 16. I want to prepare them for the

adult world by introducing them to greatness. Childcare. Are you going

to increase the number of children that nursery staff and childminders

can look after, or what? Ye, I believe Liz Truss's proposals are

right. It will mean, I believe that the costs of childcare will go down.

It'll also mean that the quality of the experience that children receive

will improve because we will have more highly-qualified people. At the

moment we have a problem with childcare, not just cost. It is the

case there are many children who are in preschool situations who arrive

at primary school without the necessary skills required to hit the

ground running and to start learning. But, the Deputy Prime

Minister, Nick Clegg has made it clear that he is deeply concerned

about this, not least because the consultation that happened raised a

lot of concerns? Yes, it raised a number of issues. There are some

people who are concerned and there are other people like Sir Martin

neary, the head of Barnardo's, who are passionately in favour of these

changes. I don't think we can understand Nick Clegg's position

without also appreciating the position that he is in because of

internal Liberal Democrat politics. So he is not going to get his way

Well, I think one of the things he has to do is he has to show because

- there is a campaign at the moment being led by Matthew Oakeshott, this

Liberal Democrat in the Lords to destabilised Nick Clegg because he

wants Vince Cable to succeed him. There are various stories in the

newspapers today. Nick understandably needs to show Liberal

Democrats he is fighting hard. I understand. That is one of the

things that happens in coalition. We've had discussions with Nick in

the past where we haven't always had the same starting position, but in

the end, because he is a reasonable guy, we have found an appropriate

way forward. I think he will understand the logic Liz wants to

achieve is formidable. And if there has to be an adjustment to make it

work for everyone, we'll listen to that. You are suggesting internal

Liberal Democrat politics and an attempt to destabilise Nick Clegg,

is determining policy about how children are cared for this noe this

country? I -- in this country? I think we have to acknowledge, you

only have to look at the newspapers today that Lord Oakeshott is on

manoeuvres, trying to promote Vince. It is understandable within the

Liberal Democrats that these things go on. Nick has to show a bit of

leg, as it were, on these issues but we have seen these situations arise

and we have managed to resolve them in the national interest. I think it

is only appropriate that we have an opportunity, over the next week or

two, to ensure that the logic behind Liz's position, and any concerns

that have been raised, can be reconciled, so we can have a

situation where children get the care and attention they need in

order to arrive at school, ready to learn. I can't wait to find out what

happens at the next Cabinet meet, with you sitting opposite Mr

Colleague. Well I was going to say -- Mr Clegg. Well I was going to say

the Khan net remains a confidential -- say the Cabinet remains a

confidential space where we can argue our positions. Many of your

colleagues have said they want a little piece of your budget. Do you

accept that education will have to share a bit more of the pain?

think it's absolutely right that all Government departments should look

at the bottom line and try to find savings and efficiencies and we

have. But I think it is also important that we make sure that the

money that goes direct to schools and, in particular, the pupil

premium that helps the most disadvantaged children s protected.

But, you might accept a little bit of flexibility, I suspect? There are

some areas outside the core schools' budget where I think we can accept

we may need to accept negotiation reductions. We are -- accept

reductions. I'm in negotiations with the Treasury. I will not show my

hand yet. But we have to protect spending for schools and spending

for the most disadvantaged children, a and make sure it is insulated from

the necessary economies we need to make as a result of the economic

situation we inherited. How has the Government got itself into a muddle

over Europe and how are you going to vote this week? I saw some of the

headlines today saying civil war and turmoil. You can't have a civil war

when everyone is on the same side. Fundamentally the overwhelming

majority of Conservative MPs would like a different relationship with

Britain and Europe I emphaticically want a different relationship. We

used to work on the Times, you were a majestic reporter, I was a column

writer. Iville fought for 15 years for a difference in the relationship

between Britain and Europe. But I think we need to sport Prime

Minister and then put it to a referendum. Some of my colleagues

are exuberant and want to let off steam. My view is let the Prime

Minister lay out on a negotiation platform and make sure he has a

majority, which I'm convinced he will secure at the next election,

and let's have the referendum then. Last soect you were quoted by

friends saying -- last October, you were quoted by friends saying if

there was a referendum you would vote to leave the EU. Do you still

believe that? I'm not happy with our situation in Europe but my

preference is for a change with the relationship. My ideal is to

recognise the current situation is no good, to say that life outside

would be perfectly tolerable, we could contemplate it and there would

be certain vaks. But the best deal -- certain advantages. But the best

deal for Europe would be to make the change Britain needs. We have a

situation in Spain where more than 50% of people are unemployed. If we

are going to transform Europe's economy and Britain's economy in all

our interests, we should follow the path laid out from the Prime

Minister's speech. How will you vote? I'm going to abstain. I

believe while we need a referendum, it is not appropriate at this stage.

And also, in a way, it is an exercise, as I said earlier, in

letting off steam. We haven't a are referendum, -- we can't have a

referendum bill because we are in coalition. You can have

disagreements but you mustn't turn them into dramas. That

misunderstands the way, after next week's vote, the Coalition

Government will still be working together to reduce the deficit,

improve schools, and enhance the NHS. Michael Gove, the abstaining

Cabinet minister. Now the news headlines.

More than 100 Conservative MPs are said to be ready to sporan amendment

to the Queen's Speech -- support an amendment.

A free vote will take place in the Commons this week. The education

Michael Gove, confirmed to this programme, that if a referendum were

to take place now, he would vote to leave the EU.

A group of leading nurses says lives are being put at risk because of low

levels of staff at hospitals in England. Researchers have found that

more patients die on wards when nurses look after eight or more

patients. The Safe Staffing Alliance, which includes the Royal

College of Nursing, the Patients' Association, and Unison, is now

calling for a national minimum ratio for nursing staff. The Government

says it is up for hospitals to decide how many they employ.

In Pakistan, unofficial election results show that the former Prime

Minister, Nawaz Sharif, is heading for victory following Saturday's

elections. The party of the former cricket star, Imran Khan is emerging

as the second-largest. Voter turnout has been put at nearly 60%, the

highest in the country no more than 30 years. Votes are still being

counted but it'll be highly significant as it marks Pakistan's

transflings one civilian government to another. -- transition from.

That's all for now. Back to James in a moment but first

here is what is coming up. Join us at 10.00am, we will have

former ministers, aid workers and sceptics lined up to argue about

foreign aid. Then after the horrors of the Cleveland kidnapping, should

we all keep an eye on the neighbours. And last for some,

perhaps, heaven. See you at 10.00am. Now, as we promised you, we would

end with something uplifting, and that's what the Soul Rebels deliver.

They are a New Orleans-based brass band who mix traditional jazz with a

smaterring of hip-hop and raw energy. They play at festivals and

clubs and come party time they play their music in the street. They have

arrived in Europe from New Orleans and they are right here. Good

morning to you all. How are you doing? Tell us, where have you been?

Where are you going to? We are bringing to a culmination a

beautiful tour we've had over here. We have been to Ireland. We have

been to France and now we are wrapping it up here tonight. We will

be at a festival at 8.00pm. What we want to emphasise is we are coming

back here in July for the Love Supreme Fest. That is going to be a

gas. You can check us outing on our website and get the information.

think of traditional brass bands as very traditional. You are not.

we are different. We have tried to make it a legitimate urban stage

act, on the level of Michael Jackson. We are no way near on his

level. That's what we strive to be. Well we are almost out of time. My

colleague, Jeremy Vine will be here next Sunday as well as a host of top