19/05/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Minister as a Tory grandee Lord Howe says he is losing control of

the party over Europe. The Governor of the Bank of England warns about

the dangers of trying to boost the housing market. Imran Khan accuses

his political rivals of murder after a senior member of his party

is shot dead in Pakistan. Also, coming up: The winner takes it all

- victory for Denmark at Eurovision. Emmelie de Forest comes top, with

Britain's Bonnie Tyler finishing 19th. And, tears from David Beckham

Europe and the Conservatives, said one commentator, are like the front

as he completes the final home game door bell and my dog. If anyone

hits the bell, the dog just goes mad. Is that what's happening

inside the Tory party - they just can't help themselves?

There's loads of it in the Sunday papers today, and the man who first

made that dog-and-doorbell comparison is here, David

Aaronovitch, Times columnist, alongside Isabel Hardman of The

of his 20 year career. Good morning Spectator.

Even before the disastrous Eurovision result, the

and welcome to BBC News. The former Conservative Chancellor Lord Howe

Conservatives were in one of those fevers about our continental

has said that David Cameron is cousins. It seems the EU issue just

losing control of the Conservative party because of what he calls the

Tories long nervous breakdown over won't go away. The row over whether

Europe. Writing in the Observer, he the country should have an in-out

warns that if a proposed referendum referendum even followed David

leads to Britain leaving the EU, Cameron into the White House this

the country would lose influence week. So one of his closest allies

joins us. But can the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, steady the

ship? The last close ally of the Prime Minister we had in said he

might vote to leave the EU. So how would the Health Secretary bind his

party's wounds? Conservatives wouldn't expect

helpful advice from our next guest, but Peter Mandelson wants to give

some to Mr Cameron anyway. He says, fight back against the eurosceptics

or risk damaging the UK. Lord Mandelson talks Europe and Labour.

I'll also be joined by the prominent right-winger, long-time

Conservative MP, John Redwood, who's opposition to the EU is

definitely not news. We'll ask him if this is the eurosceptics moment,

when they and UKIP, can shift Mr Cameron to the right. Jonathan

Miller encompasses so much that is great about British culture. From

his earliest days as a writer alongside Alan Bennett and Peter

Cook, he helped capture the irreverence of the 60s. Since then

he's been involved in almost every aspect of the arts imaginable and

is here to discuss his latest directorial outing, a ground-

breaking play by a forgotten woman writer. Plus there's music from

California. Some sunny West Coast sounds to brighten up a fairly

miserable month of May. The Allah- Las.

# Tell me what is on your mind. A All that and more coming up. First,

the news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning.

The former Conservative Cabinet minister, Lord Howe, has said David

Cameron seems to be losing control of his party over Europe. Writing

in the Observer, Lord Howe warns that if a proposed referendum leads

to Britain leaving the EU, there would be dire consequences for the

country's global influence. David Cameron says he will hold a

referendum on Britain's ownership of the EU in 2017 if he is still

the Prime Minister. But he has been criticised by two former

chancellors. Lord Lawson told David Cameron he thought it would be

better to leave the EU entirely. Now his old Cabinet colleague, Lord

Geoffrey Howe is giving the opposite advice. In the Observer

newspaper, he accuses David Cameron of opening a Pandora's's box by

attempting to bring powers back to Britain from Brussels. He said the

Conservative leadership is running scared of its backbenchers and a

deep anti-Europeanism has affected the soul of the party.

If the result of such a referendum was to suggest our detachment from

the EU, it would be of grave effect. Our presence there gives us

influence throughout the world. When Lord Howe left the Cabinet he

started a chain of a venture which led to Lady Thatcher's downfall.

But he is not suggesting a change of leader and now, just a change of

course. The governor of the Bank of England,

Sir Mervyn King, has issued a warning about the Chancellor's plan

to boost the housing market. He told Sky News that the Help to Buy

scheme is "too close for comfort" to a general state guarantee for

mortgages, and should not continue indefinitely. The Government says

the plan, announced by George Osborne in March, will run for

three years. It is rare for a Bank of England

governor to publicly criticise Government policy. But Mervyn King,

six weeks from retirement felt the need to do so on this issue at

least. The subject of his concern is for help to buy scheme announced

in last March's budget and designed to get housebuilding off its knees

by allowing the Treasury to stand over some types of private mortgage

lending from January. Sir Mervyn King sends it is turning the

Government into prominent players in the property market. I am sure

there is no place in the long run for this scheme. It is too close to

comfort for a general scheme to guarantee mortgages. We have a

healthy mortgage market before the crisis, we need to get back to that.

The Government is keen to stress that this scheme is temporary and

aimed at stoking up housebuilding and aimed to help homebuyers

prevented from getting on or moving up the property ladder now for

deposits. The Treasury says it is relaxed at these comments, possibly

cars so Mervyn King will only be in the job for another month. From

July, another man will be deciding monetary policy, and who knows

whether he likes the scheme or not. In Pakistan, a senior female

politician has been shot dead outside her home in the city of

Karachi. Zahra Shahid Hussain was a member of the former cricket star,

Imran Khan's Movement for Justice party. Mr Khan blamed a rival party,

the MQM, which has denied any involvement.

The Government faces a further attack from headteachers today as

union leaders urge them to ditch the new curriculum. Yesterday the

Education Secretary, Michael Gove, was heckled and jeered while

addressing their annual conference in Birmingham. Earlier the

conference passed a motion of no confidence in the Government's

education policies. David Beckham said a tearful

goodbye to professional football last night in what's likely to be

his last game after a 22-year career. In honour of his retirement,

the 38-year-old was made captain for the final home match of the

season at Paris St-Germain. He was given a standing ovation as he left

the field. That's all from me, for now. I'll

be back with the headlines just before 10:00am. Back to you, Jeremy.

Now, Downing Street has strenuously denied reports that an ally of

David Cameron referred to Tory activists as mad, swivel-eyed,

loons. The remarks are alleged to have been made at a private dinner.

The individual was quoted as saying that Conservative MPs who have

taken a hard line position on Europe, as well as equal marriage,

have only done so under pressure from local party associations. I'm

joined now by the leading eurosceptic Conservative MP, John

Redwood. Good morning. What exactly do you want on Europe? We want the

new relationship which the Prime Minister started to set out in the

Bloomberg speech. A large number of Conservative Party MPs has said

there is too much central power over us from central Brussels.

was a speech at the beginning of the year? Yes, he moved the policy

in the direction we want. The Government cannot control our

borders, cannot make decisions it ones on welfare eligibility. Cannot

decide who it can extradite, cannot sort out energy policy problems

because Brussels makes these decisions. Her as you push the

Prime Minister, you want him to offer an in-out referendum by the

next election, or the one coming? We are happy with the policy of at

negotiating and his side. We want this in your relationship and to

make sure the new relationship is a good one, that most British people

can accept, it has to be put to the British people. So you feel at the

moment you have not seen the flavour of his negotiating position,

is that right? No, we haven't and it is early days. What we want him

to do now is get on with that and a glaciation. We believe the new

relation must be based on trade. The Conservative Party has been a

very united party on Europe since about 2000, because we were very

happy in opposing the knees treaty in the House of Commons, the

Amsterdam treaty, and we voted against the Lisbon Treaty. Now

Conservatives hold ministerial positions it does not mean the

Conservative Party accepts those treaties. They were wrong and took

power away from our country. People are trying to understand where this

has blown up from. It seems to be the local elections, you suddenly

see 23% of the local vote going to UKIP and now you are panicking?

is not that at all. We tabled a proposal to have an early

referendum than the Prime Minister wanted, and 100 colleagues were

either in support or abstained against the whip. We went to the

Prime Minister privately and helped him with the Bloomberg speech. Now

we wish to get on with it. This won't wait, because we need to sort

out welfare, we need to sort out the borders, migration flows, we

need to sort out energy, to name but a few. All of those things puts

ministers in a position where they cannot do what they need to do

because the European Union won't let them. When you say this won't

wait, it sounds as if you are threatening the Prime Minister?

welcomed his Bloomberg speech, I welcomed the new relationship he is

seeking, I wish to help him create that. He has a united party be and

the idea of a unit that -- me goes into a relationship. It is only the

BBC who thinks that the Conservative Party is fighting back.

We are completely united behind a Prime Minister in St the current

relationship is wrong for Britain and we want the new relationship

based on trade. If you are united, why did someone close to the Prime

Minister say that Conservatives and the local party are mad, swivel-

eyed lose. That has been strenuously denied. If there is

such a person, not named of course, then they should be reprimanded.

Our colleagues believe our members are very good people who work hard

in their communities. We agree with their views on Europe. We think the

European Union is not working in our interest, it is taxing us too

much and bossing us round to much. You were there in the 90s, you saw

this happening to John Major and the results of it is Tony Blair won

a landslide, he won three. But do you want to go there again? No, the

message from John Major said he was quite wrong to join the currency

unions. I am pleased David Cameron and George Osborne had no intention

of going anywhere near the Euros. It was the economic mess for the

European scheme created. Do not enter European economic schemes

because they destroy jobs, destroy hopes and ambition in our country.

We have learnt that and we are united in not wanting to go behind

any of these schemes. The thing that caused the problem for the

Conservatives is bad economic policy forced on us by the European

entanglement. Thank you. Now, on the front pages

today. This Sunday Times, up a Google

insider lifts lid on immoral tax scam.

But the Observer has Geoffrey Howe criticising the critics of the

Prime Minister in this internal row. I also Jessica Ennis getting

married. Scotland on Sunday - violent men, a

woman's right to know. And then the Sunday Mirror, developments on the

Madeleine McCann story. Some speculation about possible

criminals. And with me to review the papers are Isabel Harding and

David Aaronovitch. David Aaronovitch.

The Mail on Sunday takes the story further. David Cameron is reported

to have said last year he tells colleagues that the EU is swivel-

eyed. It is trying to bring the story as close as possible to the

Prime Minister. Anyone in the Tory party won't be surprised by the

story. Andrew Feldman has denied these comments. Many in the Tory

party thinks that the Prime Minister thinks this about them

anyway. It is like an echo from the 90s, white coats flapping in the

90s? One of the things you neglected to remind John Redwood is

he stood unsuccessfully against John Major lock Tory party

leadership. His support group was known as Ward 10 at Broadmoor, when

they stood behind him. And his account is very much the account of

these people that Andrew Feldman was unconvinced, did say this about.

Believing probably he was off the record at the time. Here we have

them hitting back. It is true, in these circumstances, if somebody

calls to that, you have three alternatives. Either take it on the

chin. The second one is, somebody has call me that, I should look at

what I'm saying. The third is, Huns the person down, proving that you

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 922 seconds

The number of patients using accident and emergency services has

increased by more than a million in a year. The pressure on A&Es is

such that the Red Cross complained its being left to pick up the

pieces. Official figures show that the vast majority of hospitals are

failing to met their target of seeing 95 % of patients within four

hours. And, as we heard in the paper review, health service

managers have warned that the whole A&E system faces imminent collapse.

Mr Hunt joins me now. Good morning. First on Europe, what

a mess? I think John Redwood was right in what he said. If you look

at the substance of the issues. The Conservative Party is absolutely

united. We look at the European Union and we worry about Britain's

ability to compete in the global race. Regulation and red tape that

comes from Europe. New regulation about selling olive oil in

restaurants. If you go into the boardrooms in New York, Tokyo or

Singapore, they think the European economy is a joke. As Geoffrey Howe

said, you are suffering a long, nervous breakdown over the EU and

David Cameron is losing control. Why would he say that?

substance is, the Conservative Party says if we are going to be

successful we need to renegotiate our relationship with Europe and

give the British people a say. It is the Labour Party where people

are saying to Ed Miliband, how can you go into the next election --

election ignoring this issue. The Labour party is saying they won't

give people a choice. The Liberal Democrats, it was in their

manifestos to have an in-out referendum and now they are saying

they do not want to do it. obviously have to toe the line here.

Everyone is saying you are in meltdown. That is what the BBC are

saying. It is out there. Looked at the policy issue of substance.

you seen the papers? That is what I am saying, if you look at the

policy issue, it is, do we need to do something to make our

relationship with Europe different? On that issue, there is absolute

unity. It is an important change. What is different about what David

Cameron has said, he is saying, these are serious issues he won't

sweep under the carpet. We do need to change our relationship with

Europe. We do one's a relationship with Europe where we can stay in

the European Union and be confident in the global race. Is he being

pushed around by Euro-sceptics, first saying he won't have a

referendum, then he says he will. He won't have it in the draft Bill

now, now you do? He is showing leadership. He said it is an

important issue. If we are going to have jobs and prosperity for our

children and grandchildren, we need to have an economy where we can

compete with the Chinese, Indians, Brazilians and the Russians and all

of these growing economies. Frankly, nothing that comes out of Brussels

gives you confidence that they get that. We want to change that, and

we are the only party that said we will do the heavy lifting on this.

We will go back to Europe, and when we have done that, we will ask the

British people whether they agree what we have done is the right

thing. If you win the next election, and it looks like you won't be

divided going into it... You have said you are not divided... Don't

be defeatist, Jeremy. Just to be clear, you are saying right and now,

your party is united on Europe? Absolutely, on the substance of the

issue that we need a changed relationship with Europe, the

Conservative party is saying we do, and the graft David pointed to

earlier, that is in tune with the British people. Then there is no

trouble? Of course we have a debate. Patriot ism runs deep in the veins

of all Conservatives. When you have an issue of sovereignty, it is

something we debated fiercely. As far as the next election is

concerned, we shouldn't be defeatist. There was a poll this

week that showed Labour's Reid had been cut to 3%. We will come onto

them, don't worry about them for the moment. We will come on to them

with Lord Mandelson. It is a shambles, you get the Prime

Minister going to the White House and end up in a conversation about

the EU with the US President, and he has to give David Cameron advise,

and you say it is all fine? When you are Prime Minister and you

won't govern for popularity but do the right thing for the country, it

starts up a big debate. David Cameron, when it comes to the big

decisions, cutting public spending to get the deficit under control,

getting immigration under control, reforming the welfare state and

putting cap on benefits, this is someone who has never shied away

from a fight. It is the same on Europe. Don't underestimate David

Cameron. People said he would never veto a European treaty - he did.

The first Prime Minister to do so. People said he wouldn't cut the

European budget - he did. People said he could not the repatriate

powers from Europe, he got us out the Euro bail-out. Do you believe

somebody close to him called your local party members, swivel-eyed,

loons? No, I don't. The person who is alleged to have said that has

denied it. I know the individual and I trust him, he is a man of

great honour. You don't think he said it? I don't, No. You don't

think anybody else said it? It does not reflect the views of the Prime

Minister. If you look at his Prime Minister, so much of what he has

done has been informed by the views and the opinions of hard-working,

grassroots Conservative campaigners, whose views, incidentally of very

much in tune with the vast majority of the British people. They are the

ones who said we have to do something about immigration.

Theresa May has cut immigration by a third. They are the ones who said

we have to reward hard work and get rid of the something for nothing

culture. We have introduced a benefits cap and are reducing --

introducing reforms to welfare. It is important to the DNA of the

policies we are putting in place. The people you mention have not

been happy with the policies on gay marriage, equal marriage?

recognised this is an issue of conscience. It is a very, very

difficult issue for many people. Where are you on it? I personally

supported. I believe in the institution of marriage. We should

be encouraging people to make a lifelong commitment to people.

Society is stronger if you do that. In my case, I chose to get married

in a church and not a Registry Office, because I wanted to make my

marriage vows in front of God. If gay people want to do that and the

Church want to conduct that ceremony, we shouldn't stand in

their wake. Your party is divided on this? It is about conscience.

All parties find this a difficult issues. It is one we are right to

surface and have a debate about. Let me ask you about the health

service and the A&E problem. Will you tell us why they are getting

overloaded? Short-term pressures and long-term pressures. We did

have some teething problems with the new 111 service, which we are

now resolving. The problem runs deeper than that. I have been

talking to doctors over the last few months. But there are a number

of things and one of them is, it is harder now for hospitals to hit

their targets because under the last Government, we had a culture

of hitting targets at any cost. That led to the appalling tragedy

at mid- Staffordshire Hospital. Hospitals are saying that these

targets matter, they do need to see people within four hours in A&E

Cobham but not in a way that compromises patients' safety.

your explanation goes back to the GP contract in 2004, truncate in

the idea that GPs are to blame and they are cheesed off about that?

never blame GPs, they work extremely hard. They have very,

very long days. But a contract is one of the contributing causes, yes.

What happens is, when you remove the responsibility for services at

evenings and weekends from GPs, the service deteriorated. There is a

great loss of Public confident. If you need to talk to it GP out-of-

hours he will be talking to someone who is a long way away from you,

does not know you, cannot see your medical notes. I do not want to go

back to the days when GPs are personally encore at 2am on a

Saturday morning. What is the answer then? If you cannot get them

back on board, what can you do? need to go back to GPs having

responsibility for making sure that for the people on their list, there

is a good service available. The reforms we have had in the health

service helped to make it happen, but there is lots more we need to

do. If the target is four hours maximum for 95% of people in A&E,

it does not seem you want to undershoot the that with very many

people, why would you want to use that target? We don't. In a large

organisation like the NHS, you don't need to have targets. It is a

part of basic, good care that when anybody goes to hospital in an

emergency, you see them quickly. We don't want people to follow targets

blindly, at any cost. We had people put into beds that have not been

properly cleaned, ambulances circulating -- encircling hospitals

because they did not want to go through the doors, and the clock

starts ticking. We need to see people quickly. The situation is,

he brought this 101 line on too early. -- 111. They end up being

taken to hospital in an ambulance. We heard the story of so many

having diarrhoea and they were blue light it to the hospital? We did

have some teething problems, but it is up and running in 90% of the

countries. We are hitting our A&E targets. I think that had a short-

term impact. But we won't deal with the problems in A&E unless we look

at those long-term causes and having better alternatives in

primary care, a close-up, personal relationship between people and

their GPs. Something many people felt was lost during those contract

changes. That will be at the heart of the solution.

Over the past few weeks we've heard from several big beasts on the anti

side of the debate about the UK's membership of the EU, with the

former Tory Cabinet ministers, Lord Lawson and Michael Portillo both

declaring they'll vote to leave, when a referendum takes place. But

what about the pro-Europeans? Well now, Lord Mandelson, who served as

EU trade commissioner, when he wasn't at the forefront of the last

Labour government is having his say. Quitting would be a colossal

indulgence, he believes. And he joins me now to explain why.

Welcome. A colossal indulgence, why? We have

huge benefits from Europe, primarily the Europe's single

market. It scales up our ability to trade in Europe and with the rest

of the world. Be create business opportunities for small and medium

enterprises and in the supply chains of Europe. It brings a

colossal amount of foreign investments because people are

Investment -- investing here to get access to Europe's single market.

46% of people want us out? If we pulled out, we wouldn't have

unfettered access to the single market and we wouldn't have our

share in the decision-making and law-making in the single market.

That would be a great setback, economic LEA for Britain. But a

poll suggested 46% of people want us out, so after all these years

they are not convinced. There wouldn't be the vote with out a

national debate, during this time, all the benefits Britain a rise by

being part of the European Union would be borne out. If people are

not violently pro or violently anti- Europe, they are open to

persuasion. They take a more pragmatic view, they want to know

where Britain serves to gain or from its membership from the

European Union. They want to see the balance from the advantages of

being in and also the compromises we need to make. Are pragmatic view

I think leads to only one conclusion, and that is to stay in.

But the debate would have to be had. He wanted us to go into the euro,

at what point we do apologise for that question that I don't have to

apologise. It was a disaster. don't have to apologise for making

the point that if the circumstances are such, it would be in Britain's

interests to be in the single currency, then we should consider

doing so. Even now? Those circumstances and those conditions

had not arisen. If we were to make a move like that, it would involve

us in a significant change in our relationship with the European

Union. In those circumstances, I can see we would need to have a

referendum. To have an in-out referendum now, just for the sake