26/05/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

It is just four days since we all began to learn the full horror of

that attack in Woolwich. It is perhaps worth remembering that on

Wednesday afternoon,le some at the heart of Government feared that we

could be on the edge of a deadly wave of terrorist atrocities.

Followed perhaps by a backlash. Thankfully, thus far, none of that

has come to pass, but much from that dreadful afternoon to reflect on

this weekend. The Sunday papers are filled with reporting and analysis

on the sorrow and the missed clues and the debate about what to do now

following the brutal murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. Joining me is

Sarah Sands and the actress and writer, Meera Syal who will be

telling us about her plan to fuse Bollywood and Carmen in a park in

Bradford. It is, of course, the Home Secretary who must decide whether to

treat last week's murder as a treshl, never to be forgotten, but

hopefully one off crime or as a wake-up call to the extent of the

threat our society faces. This morning, I'm joined by Theresa May

for her first major interview since that attack. The Government, we are

told, is planning new powers to muzzle Islamic hate preachers. This

they are revowing the strategy for -- reviewing the strategy for

terrorism. The last Labour Government was often

accused of trampling on civil liberties, with its anti-terror

laws. I will be talking to Alan Johnson about that difficult balance

between security and freedom and we will be taking a him back further to

the story of his childhood on the streets of London. His fascinating

new memoir tells the every day story of abandonment, poverty and violence

and yet, how good can emerge from it. Way back then, London's stage, a

play had its first performance. I have been speaking to Felicity

Kendal about her television husband, the late Richard Briers. With some

We will hear more from Noah And The Whale at the end of the programme.

First the news from Briony MacKenzie.

Good morning. Three more men have been arrested as the police

investigation continues into the murder of soldier Lee Rigby in

Woolwich. Counter-terrorism officers held three men in their 20s last

night on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder. Meanwhile prayers

will be said this morning for Drummer Rigby at churches in south

London and in his home town of continues, more police activity in

South-East London. Three more men have been arrested by

counter-terrorism detectives backed up by specialist firearms officers.

A Taser or electronic stun gun was used to apprehend two of the men.

Residents heard the shots. Three gunshots. I don't think it was

bullets, but it was either plastic, you know, it was really loud. I

thought it was a bomb. That's how loud it was.

Neither of the men needed hospital treatment. All three are being held

on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder. The two main suspects remain

under police guard in separate hospitals. They were shot in the

legs by police after Drummer Lee Rigby was killed. The head of MI5 is

due to handover a preliminary report next week into what the Security

Services knew about the two men. People from across Woolwich have

been laying floral tributes in memory of the soldier who was

described by his family as a hero. A group of bikers, some ex-military,

came to show their respects by driving past the barracks where he

was based. The father of one, will be remembered in prayers today at a

service at his local church in The French Defence Minister said a

soldier stabbed while on patrol in Paris was targeted because he was in

the Army. The soldier who is in a stable condition was stabbed in the

neck by an unknown man who escaped. President Francois Hollande said all

possibilities were being explored. Two men who were arrested on Friday

after fighter jets ex-courted a plane to Stansted Airport have been

charged with endangering arch airport. An RAF typhoon jet was

scrambled and the pair were arrested after police boarded the plane. The

men are both British and will appear in court tomorrow.

Investigators are continuing to look at what caused the boat carrying

dozens of day-trippers to hit a rock and start to sink off the coast of

Pembrokeshire. A mayday was sent out and passengers were transferred to

rescue vessels after the boat started taking a in water yesterday

afternoon. An unfortunate start to the Bank

Holiday weekend as the Lady Helen boat started talking on water and

sinking. But things could have been worse for the 48 people on board.

The moment the boat struck rocks was recorded by a passenger.

The Lady Helen had been sailing to nearby Scomer Island. Passengers

faced more drama. It did become apparent while they were towing it

to a safe location that the vessel started to sink. They were

transferred to other vessels and thankfully, all were transferred

safely with no injuries which we were happy for. Boat trips here are

popular. It is a wildlife sanctuary. The incident has been reported to

the marine accident investigation branch as is standard procedure. It

will decide next week if it will Thousands of runners have completed

the Boston Marathon by running the mile they had to abandon when two

bombs exploded last month. The athletes carried American and

Chinese flags to remember the people killed in the attack. Over 260

people were injured. One of the suspects died in a shootout with

police and the other remains in hospital.

That's all for now. I will be back with the headlines before 10am. Back

to Nick. We are korming to terms with the

terrorist a-- we are coming to terms with the terrorist attack on the

streets of London. The Mail has that story that the Government are

planning, they say, to gag hate clerics. The Observer has a response

from a former Labour minister, Hazell Blears. The Sunday Times

shots a -- shows a photograph of one of the suspects in Kenya and says

that's a missed clue. The Sunday Telegraph, the same photo. The Sun

focuses on the the fact that the Prime Minister is not managing this

crisis at home. He is off on his holes and the Sunday Mir -- his

holidays. Here to review the papers, Sarah Sands and Meera Syal. Good

morning to both of you. Sarah, a challenge for Sunday

papers. What more can they tell us that they -- we didn't know? What

the State can do and the Communications Bill back on the

agenda. There is a lot of banning and the piece that I thought was

most insightful was in The Mail on Sunday. It is by a former radical.

An Islamist radical who works for the excellent organisation and he

talks about what is brain washing. It is what is happening to these

young men. It is something the youth worker in London said is happening

in London on the streets. These young men are being targeted and

recruited. He says he was a 16-year-old boy, he was confused, he

had an identity crisis. He felt at odds with the world and a long comes

this recruiter and that's where you have to start. On the streets?On

the streets and in the universities. Do you just ban those websites or do

you argue? The Independent on Sunday has a story about these websites

being targeted with counter ard arguments. It would be -- arguments.

It would be great if you thought you could persuade these young men with

a counter argument. Of there must be some way one can reason and engage.

You have a piece on the impact on the #34us limb community in Britain?

In is in today's Observer. It is a thoughtful and heartfelt piece by a

leading Islamic commentator about how it has been for the liberal

Muslim community of which there are many, many more than there are

extremists. How they have been targeted. There is a huge rise in

the number of attacks against Muslims at the moment simply walking

along the street headscarves being pulled off to attacks and it is the

voice of the mad few nuttersers that gets -- nutters they gets heard more

than the liberal voices that are appalled by this and what to do.

You are not a Muslim yourself. You are of Hindu origin and you had a

Sikh parent. As a British Asian, do you feel nervous, that fear that

many people feel on the streets, that they are being judged simply as

an outsider still after all these years? That does happen. I mean, it

is serbl to use the -- terrible to use the phrase "tarred with the same

brush." Anyone with a brown face becomes one of them I is a shame --

which is a shame. My parents have become British citizens and have

given much life and wealth and support and love for this this

country to find yourself suddenly suddenly on the end of that

aggression and hostility is sad because any descent person know this

is is a so wrong and the only way we are going to defeat it actually is

if we pull together as a community and as descent minded people. An

important point in this, she said, " The liberal Muslims feel they are

being let down by the authorities because they need more support to

fund these schemes that will stop extremism in its tracks." We will

talk to the Home Secretary about this. Sarah, what else caught your

eye? Well, the next, it is a hopeful one is you talked about the descent

majority and this was a fantastic example. The Woolwich women who came

to the aid, two who tended the body. As someone said it looked like a

Greek tragedy of the women by the body and the person who took on the

suspect. This is Dominic Lawson talking about the con tras, the

rhetoric which is about wanting to bend people to the male will and

then these women who demonstrated just empathy and consideration for

others and I thought that the remark from the mother who was at the body,

that she was asked why she endangered herself? She was asked by

her son why she endangered herself? She said, " It could have been

mine." Somehow every everything that was barbaric and and the abration

becomes more powerful. It is instinct. It is core values.

The contrast of the outpouring of human kindness in contrast to what

the men had done. Exactly. The power of kindness. It reminded

me of the famous quotation, an eye for an eye makes the whole world go

blind. An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind. Those women

demonstrated... There was a lot happening in the news anyway that

day when the attacks happened, I was reporting on the row about tax

avoidance and Google. Yes, we are not going to let this go, are we?

This makes everybody angry. This is page 15 on the Sunday Times. US

giants cost Britain �1 billion a year in lost tax. It is the same

story you were reporting on, but more detail. More companies have

been diverting all their revenue through Ireland to avoids pay paying

tax. Del, Apple. This was started by the Google whistle-blower. I can't

believe no one has done anything. I know three or four people who are in

dire straights because their disability bens fits have been cut,

they are on the breadline and they have massive corporations, going on

their way with nobody doing anything. It feels like politicians

of all parties are now beginning to say we have to be seen to stand up

to the multinational companies. There is an argument that these

corporations... It is the governments that make these laws and

if you lower corporation tax here people would come from Ireland.

have got a bit more politics as well. The other argument I forgot

about completely was the swivel-eyed loons, but now it is the UKIP

founder exchanging insults. The whole appeal is that Nigel Farage is

the common man, the one with common sense, so it is interesting the

founder, who described himself as an intellectual, saying the party has

become so stupid and racist and he cannot bear it either. UKIP does

seem to be the centre of all argument, most of the time. There is

an important anniversary this week, the suffragettes. Yes, and it is

being marked by what sounds like a fantastic documentary, which is on

tonight I believe. What is it about? It is an analysis, everyone

remembers Emily Davidson who was killed when she threw herself under

the racehorse in 1913. Restored footage has come to light of the

actual incident. Emily has been portrayed sometimes as a sad

fantasist with a death wish, but this analysis of the footage shows

that she was trying to pin a suffragette ribbon onto the horse

and not trying to kill herself. She had later holiday plans so it looks

as if... If she had not died, would that act have ever been delivered?

was interested because the presenter is Clare balding, so was she on the

side of the horse? I don't want to let you go before we have a word

about Bollywood meets Carmen, so let's have a look at it.

We are going to see this in a Bradford Park? Yes, it is an

extraordinary event which is basically a Bollywood version of

Carmen. The plot is the same, a love triangle, but it is set with a

waitress in a cafe. I play the innkeeper, who in the original story

was a man and now is a woman who witnesses the whole tragedy and it

is a synthesis of cultures. It is the Carmen Opper, with a mash up of

Bollywood contemporary style. -- Carmen Opper. We are expecting a

minimum of 3000, possibly 5000 people turning up. It is broadcast

live on BBC Three. I remember a few years ago going to Bollywood and

virtually no one knew what Bollywood was at that time. It is amazing how

it is -- has taken off. Yes, it will always be loved and it will be a

great event so I am looking forward to it. It is another bank holiday

weekend, and can you believe it, it is not quite as chilly as you might

have expected. Over to the weather studio Who would believe it, another

day of blue skies overhead and that will continue through the day. Good

sunny spells through the country, and feeling warmer than yesterday.

Even where we have more cloud than yesterday, it will break up at times

to allow some sunny spells through. Low cloud and western coasts will

gradually clear, and the many -- many will get some sunshine. Strong

to gale force winds on Monday with rain around, but brightening up in

Northern Ireland and a rich -- an inch of rain possible. Most of the

east will stay drive-through bank holiday Monday, temperatures up to

18 degrees. While we will see some patchy rain work eastwards through

the evening, many will stay dry impression your bank holiday will be

fine. They're all the same. That's the most heard complaint about

politicians. People wouldn't say that if they knew the remarkable

story of the former Labour Cabinet minister, Alan Johnson. He grew up

in west London's Notting Hill, at a time when the area was synonymous

with slum landlords and race riots. His first home was condemned as

unfit for habitation. After his mother died tragically young, he was

brought up his older sister though she was just a teenager herself. We

can now all read that story in Alan Johnson's new memoir, This Boy. We

will talk about that in a few minutes, but first, as a former Home

Secretary, I want to get your thoughts about this week. When you

heard about the attack, were you taken back to the days when you must

have seen security files about the threat of extremism and the fears

you had? Yes, and I shared everybody's horror of course, but

having been in that position myself, I knew the importance of piecing

together the whole story of this and not acting prematurely. One thing is

for sure, it might be nice whether this bank holiday but to Reza and

her colleagues will not be getting any rest. -- to reason may. It is a

huge pressure on the Home Secretary to make sure those people are

brought to justice. The fear of the lone wolves, if that is what they

turned out to be, were you aware that even if you were very

successful in disrupting plots the threat would come through another

way? Yes, and the so-called skins, people who are new to this. More

people have been arrested and it looks like it is wider than some

lone wolves that is the importance of piecing it together. I heard Eric

Pickles on the radio the other day, and I think he is right. In a free

democracy there are limits to the kind of curtailment you can put on

people 's activities. It is easier in China for instance. You must have

constituents coming up to you saying why don't they just stop the

Internet and so on. It is harder than that. Yes, and it is getting

the balance right. The organisation this man was a member of I did

prescribe, but when you ban an organisation in a democracy, you

have to go through a rigid process and be sure it is not

counter-productive. When David Cameron got into office and saw the

information, they still remain three years later unproscribed. You could

end up in a situation where you drive people underground and you

don't get the intelligence. government have said they are

reviewing this so-called preventive strategy. Hazel blears is in the

Observer this morning saying the government have cut their budgets

and now they are beginning to focus only on the extremists rather than

funding the moderates to help them grow. Do you fear that mistake is

being made? Yes, it was very early days of Prevent, but the idea was, a

very important book by Ed Hussain called the Islamists, talking about

how he was radicalised in his community. Part of the strategy was

to get into those communities and make sure that young people who were

susceptible to this kind of radicalisation had the arguments.

That cannot come from politicians, it has to come from people in the

community. Would you be saying think again to the government? I don't

want to make a political point of this but I think they will be

thinking again anyway. Theresa May will be fighting hard for her budget

in the Home Office. Their job is to protect people and that is the last

area you should be looking for savings. There is one area where

people have said think again, your former colleague secretary John Reid

said to think again about the Data Communications Bill, are you one of

those who believe it was a mistake to abandon this? I am passionately

one of those people. For six years at least we have known that as

telecommunications has moved on, the security forces who need to know,

not to open these communications, that is a different process, it is

to know who has been contacting home. I am absolutely with the Home

Secretary because I feel absolutely confident she will be fighting for

this. We need to get this on the statute book before the next general

election and I think it is crucial. It is a resignation issue for the

Home Secretary if the Cabinet do not support her. We originally asked you

to come here because of this fascinating book, and the people who

don't know, this is the story of an extraordinarily tough upbringing. As

people see the photographs of view on the streets of Notting Hill, you

look sweet enough kid, if you don't me saying. It wasn't like Notting

Hill these days, was it? Know, and there were a lot of people in the

same circumstances I was, but the house was condemned in the 1920s as

unfit for habitation and we were still have the -- living there in

the 1950s. It was squalid and typically 16 people to a house, one

or two families on every floor, no hot water of course, no indoor

toilets, no electricity. When you wanted to get coal to stay warm,

what did you do? My mum used to take us round to the horse and cart

delivering coal to the more prosperous areas, and we used to

pick up bits of coal. She used to order us Mac to spit on it, she had

these funny methods, and that was a way of pillaging it rather than

buying it. It had fallen on the ground so it was therefore anybody.

The most poignant story I think is Christmas lunch when your mother was

ill in hospital. This is a story of two amazing women who have to --

happen to be my mother and my sister. She had paid tuppence for a

Christmas hamper and had left some shilling pieces to put in the gas

while she was in hospital. My father didn't come home so my sister

decided to cook the Christmas dinner. She was tend by the way. She

put the chicken in the oven without realising you should take the

plastic wrapper off and there was a terrible smell but she tried!

don't want to leave you without asking a little bit about current

politics. Do you ever worry that your background made you

underestimate yourself? You once famously said on Desert Island discs

you were not fit to be Prime Minister. A lot of your colleagues

thought you were and want to see you back. Many people who go to

university get the confidence and trained mind, that might have been a

part of it. Shirley Williams famously said she felt unable,

because she was a woman, to have the confidence to do that. Could you

come back to the front bench now? could do, but I did that for 11

years and it was a lot of fun while it lasted. What about the quick tip

to those who succeeded you? You have said it is time for policy. We know

the election is in 2015 but you do need, as you move closer to that

area, and it is surprising how much policy is out there. What about

spending in particular as being a real worry that Labour's economic

message has not got across? Well, I think we are spelling it out. The

IMF were saying the same thing as I was saying as Shadow Chancellor, if

you overdo the austerity be, you choke off growth and you lead to a

greater problem with the economy. Alan Johnson, the book is a great

read. Thank you very much indeed. Now, Felicity Kendal has been one of

mower most popular TV actresses since she appeared all those decades

ago in the Good Life, but the stage is her first love. She began acting

as a child in her parents' touring theatre company in India and she is

starring in a revival of Relatively Speaking. The play is a comedy of

middle-class manners and mistaken identities. With the characters

speaking at cross purposes for most of the time to the joy of the

audience. It was daring for its era, featuring adultery and a young

couple living in sin. I talked to Felicity Kendal in her dressing room

and I began by asking her if the theatre is where she really feels

most at home? It is where I feel most at home. It is more and more, I

make a choice between something in front of a camera, hello there, and

the stage. Especially a play like this which is a comedy, it is short,

it is funny, but it really is, it takes an incredible amount of

energy. Hopefully it doesn't look as if it is hard work! But it is. And

it is really comedy is actually probably harder than tragedy, I

think, to do. I love doing it and that's why I have come back.

It is hard harder than us trying to summarise the plot? Well, it would

be a shame because the plot is not that interesting. It is how he deals

with the situation. There are two couples, a younger couple and an

older couple. It is about love in infidelity and then a marriage

that's not working and these four people meet in the countryside and

they all make a terrible mistake about who each other is having an

affair with or isn't. It is just divine, but it is impossible to

describe it in two or three minutes because it is a plot that you think

you know where you are going and then it goes somewhere else.

You are Ms Whitaker, you work for my husband. I used to.

I am sorry, I got the impression from my husband there that you were

much older. I could have sworn that he said you were nearing retirement.

Do you get a sense that the huge release that the audience get, they

love every minute. Is it what people need in an era like this? Times are

desperate and sad and upsetting and hard when it is economical, as well,

the problems that we haves. It is wonderful to have a laugh and

identify with other people with problems that are worse and less

worse than yours and laugh at them. It is a joy.

Was there a little added poignancy for you? The first time this was

performed it was Richard Briers? was as far as I knew, you know, I

didn't know he was ill. He was alive. I was hoping he might come

and see it. But sadly in the break between he died. So I don't know. It

is the continuity. I feel very pleased to be in this play

continuing a little bit of Richard. You were away at the time and we

didn't hear from you. Did you feel there were things you wanted to say?

I was very, very glad that I wasn't here because I certainly would have

said, I would have responded to anybody who asked me to say anything

about him, but I was really glad that I didn't have to. And now?Now,

I just say he was adorable, wonderful, I was very, very lucky

girl to have worked with him early on and to have learnt so much from

him. The stuff I'm doing now, it goes back to what he told me about

comedy. What is it team work? It is team

work. It is like playing ping-pong. You back the -- the bat the ball

back to the next person and you cannot drop it.

Tired love? J should I be tired? I went to bed with the sun. I got up

with the sun. It wasn't a total success, was it? I realised that

after about the fifth game of chess. What time was that? 12When did we

finish listing our top 20 films? About ten.

When you have got so many TV channels, you can never escape your

early work. The idea of my old performances on the television, the

idea of it being shown? The stuff I did 20 years ago, I p would be

horrified to see again. I am used to seeing little bits of Barbara Good.

I love it. I'm pleased to see it every now and again. It is like a

little touch stone, that's still there. Well done.

It doesn't feel like a trap? No. It is very gratifying.

Now, if the dressing room were bigger, I would be tempted to say,

can you do the splits again after Still dancing? No, dancing. I do a

lot of exercise. What that instilled in me is something I already had,

but it sort of doubled my conviction that for me, it is a personal thing.

I really, really need to do a lot of exercise to keep happy. I do

probably more than I did before and I did a lot before.

But you can look back at that tape and think, " I can do the splits."

Yes. Felicity Kendal, thank you very much

indeed. Thank you. Still got the old magic.

Felicity Kendal there. Now back to the story which continues to

dominate the news, the murder of course, of it Drummer Lee Rigby --

of Drummer Lee Rigby. I am joined by Theresa May. The news thatle people

would have woken up to is the news of further arrests. Now, obviously

you can't talk about an ongoing police investigation, but it will

make some nervous, this maybe something wider than that. Can you

tell us anything? First of all, Nick or thoughts must be with Lee Rigby's

family ads friends. Our thoughts must be -- and friends. Our thoughts

must be with those who have lost a loved one. There were arrests last

night. The police and the Security Services are working hard in

relation to this case. We now have 500 officers and others who are

working on the case including some officers who have been brought

through from counter-terrorism units from elsewhere the in -- in the

country. We can't astumm this is a lone wolf

as it is called? All the indications would would be for that. This is an

John going investigation. The police and the -- ongoing investigation.

The police and the Security Services have to do their job. I can't go

into details of the case. It is an ongoing investigation.

The questions are being asked of how the Security Services did their job?

We are going to get a report into that soon. But it does look, doesn't

it, as if these guys were not just on the radar of the Security

Services, but had been in contact with them? Well, again, I can't

comment on the details of this case, but in a general sense, the Security

Service is in an intelligence agency and their job is about gathering

intelligence about those who might seek to do us harm. They do that

from a variety of sources and they will do that in a variety of ways

and yes, they will approach individuals from time to time. I see

the work of the Security Service on a day-to-day basis and I see the ex

excellent work which the men and women of the Security Service do do

to keep us safe. Since the beginning of the year, we have seen three

counter-terrorism trials in which 18 people have been found guilty and

sentenced to #150z years. Excellent work d 150 years.

Excellent work, but it is clear these two suspects had contact. Does

this make you worry and make them worry that mistakes were made?

say, the Security Service and the police working today do excellent

work in terms of dealing with, disrupting plots as we have seen...

Is there anxiety about things that went wrong? Of course, what we have

in this country is the right procedures which say that when

things like this happen, we do need to look at whether there were

lessons to be learnt. As with in this case where the police shot the

two individuals, the Independent Police Complaints Commission moves

in and looks at that as pect of the case and so the Intelligence and

Security Committee covering members from the House of Lords and the

House of Commons will review what happened from the point of view of

the Security Service. How soon will we get that report and

will we, the wider public, get to learn if and it is only a an if

mistakes were made? Well, the IFC report won't happen immediately,

they look back at the operation and they will look back at the case. We

strengthen their powers to do that in the justice and security Act

passed a few months ago and so they will not interfere in operational

decisions and it is right that we let the Security Service and the

police get on with that job. In your gut, do you think you know

the answer to the question about whether mistakes were made? As I

say, I see the excellent work that the Security Service do do, but we

will look to see if there are lessons that need to be learned.

How many people like this might there be? Sometimes, the talk has

been of 2,000 or 3,000 people of people with extreme views who could

be a danger. Overnight, I see that Downing Street were briefing about

this new or revision of the existing anti-extremist strategy talked about

a few hundred. What's the scale that you think that you are dealing with

it? Well, you have people at different points on what could be a

path to violent, extremism. The prevent programme and it is right

that the Government has a programme which is countering radicalisation

which is countering the ideology that leads to radicalisation, but is

working with individuals and working in institutions like prisons where

ladicalisation might take place and that pre-- radicalisation might take

place and that programme, I am excludeing more extremist preachers.

We have more high quality programmes working with more people and we have

introduced a new programme which isn't for those who are at danger of

radicalisation, but those who are perhaps further out and over and

around 2,000 people have been worked with in just the last year in that

particular part of the programme and we are doing more work with more

prisoners in more prisons. The answer to whether it is hundreds

or thousands, you regard it as thousands? Potentially.

You talk about the prevent of the Prevent programme. We are told there

is a new task force that we learned about last night. People will wonder

is it really necessary to have new laws in order to stop people

standing on the streets of Britain calling for the beheading of

soldiers? Is it just that the laws are not implemented? Well, the

taskforce which is going to be able to look across the whole of

Government. I talked to you about the Prevent programme in the Home

Office. We need to look across institutions like universities,

whether there is more work we can be doing in prisons, but yes, we need

to look at the pour we ares. We -- powers. We need to look at the laws.

We need to look at whether we need to have banning orders to ban

organisations that don't -- ban banning orders. These are issues

that are being raised. You are talking about internet, hate

preaching or what is shown on television? What would you like the

communitications regulator to do? One of the issues is whether we have

got the right processes, the right rules in place in relation who what

is beamed into people's homes. Mrs Thatcher used to talk about the

oxygen of publicity. Is your fear as Home Secretary, that the

broadcasters, the internet providers provided hate if you like, the

oxygen of publicity. People are able to watch things flew the internet

which can -- through the internet which can lead to radicalisation, we

have referral unit. Which members of the public and organisations are

able to refer into there unit when they have got concern about what is

broadcast. And a considerable number, something like 5,000, 700

separate spesz have been taken down off of the -- pieces have been taken

down off of theent net. We need to see if there are additional sfeps we

should be taking a. Do you include the television

companies in that? Did you shout at your television when you saw some of

this on the screens? I think Choudhary has disgusting views.

There were many people who did indeed say what is the BBC doing

interviewing him? People may say to you, why doesn't the law get to

grips with people like that? Are you suggesting in future there may be

laws that allow you to get a grip on hate preachers in general? This is

part of the work the task force the Prime Minister has set up is doing.

It is saying what are the powers we have at the moment? What new powers

might we need in the future? Let's look at this situation. Yes, the

government has improved the prevent programme, and we are supporting

more people in making sure they don't get radicalised. But your

budget has been cut and you are not now dealing with people who may be

radicalised. We do want to look at extremism, as well as violent

extremism, and there is an aspect of this about integration but we have

taken that away from the Prevent programme. Otherwise it would have

just been about spying on people. Sir Malcolm Rifkind said no cuts to

the budget of the intelligence service. We are short of time, so to

be clear your fight cuts the intelligence service? We need to be

clear that the intelligence services, in the last spending

review we've made sure that that policing was not treated the same as

everyday policing. Alan Johnson has just said that if he were Home

Secretary and he couldn't get the data Communications Bill through the

coalition, that would be a resignation issue. Nick Clegg has

blocked it, is it a resignation issue for you? Access to

communications data is important and this is a very important thing we

need to ensure we are giving our law enforcement agencies and

intelligence agencies, access to the tools they need to fight crime,

paedophiles and terrorists. You have had the argument. There was a

reference in the Queens speech to work that needs to be done in this

area and we are working through what action will be taken. People will

read that as a watered-down form of it, but Nick Clegg blocked it so

people will be asking what is the point of a Home Secretary if she

cannot implement the laws she believes are necessary?

government has too implement the laws, we are in a coalition

government. We are now working through across the government what

action we can take, but I am clear the intelligence agencies need

access to communications data. Before the next election, there is

another go at this? We are taking action in this area. Before this

happened, politics subsumed Westminster, the politics of your

party, the sense that things were going badly wrong, do you think we

will see another female prime minister in your lifetime? We have a

first-class Prime Minister at the moment who is leading the country

through difficult times. The reason the coalition came together was to

deal with the economy, left in that state by the previous government. I

want to see David Cameron carrying on as prime minister. The last

female prime minister we saw was a bit of a toughy, do you think we

need another one to get a grip? think David Cameron is. Thank you

for allowing me to tempt you, even though you resisted. Now the news

headlines. Three more men have been arrested as the police investigation

continues into the murder of soldier Lee Rigby in

Woolwich.Counter-terrorism officers held three men in their twenties

last night on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder.

Speaking on this programme, the Home Secretary said This was a targeted

lone wolf attack. She also said we need tighter scrutiny of the

Internet. Alan Johnson also said on this programme that in free

democracy it was difficult to get the balance right in scrutinising

terrorist groups. He urged the Home Secretary to make sure the

Communications data Bill is placed onto the statute book before the

next general election. I think it is crucial, in fact I think it is a

resignation issue for a Home Secretary if the Cabinet do not

support her in this essential part of what the security services do.

The next news on BBC One is at midday. Well Theresa May is still

with me, and we've been joined again by Alan Johnson. And we also have

Charlie Fink and Tom Hobden from the band Noah and the Whale. They've

just released their fourth album, Heart Of Nowhere, and they're going

to play a track from it in a moment. Welcome to you both. As I read up

about this album, I was fascinated to hear, and people will look at you

next to these oldies here, including me, this is a nostalgic album

reflecting on the past. Yes, a coming of age album. Partly provoked

by being on tour and then coming back and finding someone had got

engaged while you were away. Yes, my friend will get a big head about

this because he keeps coming up in interviews. He got engaged while we

were on tour which prompted some nostalgia about the teenage years.

People often think about how music is composed, it is a great mystery

to those who cannot do it. Having a theme, do you find that is a huge

help? Yes, especially being a violinist myself, it is an emotional

instrument. We have a guitar here, which I am going to give to the

former Home Secretary. You are a man who likes to strum a little. My rock

career ended when my guitar that I bought on Ward Street got nicked.

Someone heard on Desert Island discs that are used to play one like this

and offered to sell me one, and this is probably the one that got

nicked! They are looking at you in that way - I didn't know Alan

Johnson had a rock career! We had better let you guys get ready. Good

luck with that, and I know you will be at Glastonbury soon so it will be

good to see you. Aside from the guitar, forgive me just briefly for

the serious topic, I get a sense that you are from opposite parties

but there is almost a trade union of Home Secretary is. Once you have

seen the sort of things you did see and you now see, there is a kind of

bond there? It is certainly true, and I see this from other Home

Secretary's as well, but once you have been there and done that job

and you understand the challenges we face across a variety of issues that

government has to deal with in the Home Office, I think there is a

bond, a greater understanding there. We read and sign of things we can

never talk about, and we both appreciate the difficult work people

in the security services do, and we are there only voice. They cannot

speak for themselves. You tried to stiffen the backbone of the current

Home Secretary by saying she might want to resign if she doesn't get

her own way. She is in a coalition government, which is a bit

different, but on a fundamental issue like this I believe the rest

of the Cabinet, many of whom will not have access to the same

information Theresa May has, will need to look at how to get the

balance right on this, but at the end of the day that is your primary

role and if the Home Secretary is telling you she needs this

legislation, then... The key is to engage people with the argument?

What is important is showing people how and why this information

matters. Thank you. Next week, Eddie Mair will be presenting the show so

do join him and his guests, including the singer Alison Moyet.

Now, Noah and the Whale with your brother's room # Talked about

how we'd break free, guess it came too soon. # We grew up, drifted

apart, now you're getting married # While I'm waiting for my life to

start. # Are you ready to make that call?

# It's gonna be a lifetime. # It was only a few years ago # But

was mostly you and me # We spent the whole summer there on his balcony.

# We were young, that was then # And I can't help the feeling that it's

never coming back again. # Are you ready to make that call? #

It's gonna be a lifetime. # It was only a few years ago, # But

it feels like a lifetime. # And we used to dream of what was