02/06/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

leave most customers confused about the cheapest deal.

Almost 1,000 people are arrested during two days of protests in

Turkey. In Istanbul, it is calm at the

moment. The Good morning. Welcome to the first Andrew Marr Show in

flaming June - after a spring which the Met Office said this week was

the flaming coldest since before Dr Who was born. The departure of Matt

Smith is a big story in today's papers. Here to review them, the

entrepreneur and concert promoter Harvey Goldsmith and beloved

columnist from The Sun Jane Moore. There are more lobbying revelations

in the papers this morning, with a senior Labour politician apparently

poised to take a large payment in exchange for promoting the interests

of a company. I will be asking the Shadow Foreign Secretary whether

there are just some bad apples or if it is a much bigger problem. And

with the Red Cross calling for immediate access to one besieged

town in Syria, we'll talk about the ongoing crisis there. Critics call

it a snooper's charter - supporters say it is a vital tool in the fight

against terrorism - we will debate the Communications Data Bill, with

David Davis and former Security Minister Lord West. Security

worries, too, in Northern Ireland, as it prepares to host world leaders

for the G8 summit. I will ask the chief constable in charge of

security how worried he is about the threat of violence. You saw her sing

here on BBC One last night - this morning, Beyonce tells us why she is

not prepared to wait any longer for the empowerment of women. And live

with us here in the studio will be Alison Moyet, singing a track from

her new album. All that coming up after the news, from Louise Minchin.

Good morning. Three members of the House of Lords have been accused of

agreeing to carry out parliamentary work for payment. The Labour peers

Lord Cunningham and Lord Brian Mackenzie and the Ulster Unionist

Lord Laird were filmed by undercover reporters who were pretending to be

from fictitious companies. All three peers say they havwe done nothing

wrong. Lord Laird was approached by a fake lobbying company set up by

BBC panorama, in conjunction with the Daily Telegraph, which claims to

be representing business interests in Fiji. They asked him if he was

interested in being paid to work for them. He said he would be interested

in excepting a retainer of �2000 a month. He discussed with undercover

reporters how he could get other people to raise questions in the

separate but similar investigation, posing as an energy company. They

secretly filmed to Labour peers who were both offered cash in return for

clear - members of the House of Lords are not meant to profit from

their role. In separate statements, all three have denied any

wrongdoing. Labour has urged the coalition to introduce an official

register of lobbying firms, which they promised more than 18 months

ago, but which still has not materialised. Proposals to simplify

energy tariffs and make it easier for customers to compare them are

still too complicated, according to the consumer group Which? Their

report claims seven out of ten people still can't work out the

cheapest deals for gas and electricity, when using an Ofgem

comparison system. The energy regulator has rejected the results,

saying the research methods were misleading. The Government has

ordered firms to cut the number of rates on offer to a maximum of four

by next year, to help make the process easier. The Turkish

authorities say nearly 1,000 people have been detained following a

second day of violent protests in Istanbul and other cities. The

country's Prime Minister has called for an immediate end to the

demonstrations. They began in opposition to plans to develop a

public square into a shopping centre, but have grown into

A second man has been charged with murdering Drummer Lee Rigby, who

died in Woolwich a week ago. 28-year-old Michael Adebolajo is

also accused of attempting to kill two police officers and possessing a

firearm. He is due to appear in Hundreds of cyclists, including 30

injured servicemen, will complete the final stage of their 350-mile

journey from Paris to London today, as a part of a fundraising event for

Help for Heroes. The riders will be met in South-East London by over

1,000 more cyclists, who have completed charity bike rides around

the UK in support of the wounded. The challenge was arranged before

Drummer Lee Rigby was killed last week, while wearing one of the

That's all from me for now. I will be back with the headlines just

before ten o'clock. Back to you, leaders will descend on Northern

Ireland for this week 's G8 conference. The police service there

has accepted that it will be under particular pressure from terrorist

threats and groups wanting to make a name for themselves while the

leaders are in town. The man who will have control of security for

the event, which will see the biggest leasing operation in the

history of Northern Ireland, is the chief constable of the PSNI, Matt

Baggott. Chief Constable, are you ready? Yes, we are ready. We have

engaged in meticulous planning, we have got some very good equipment,

the training has been thorough, and it has been a real team effort. I am

buried grateful for the support I have had both nationally from every

police force in England, Wales and Scotland, and also internationally,

from people like the Canadians, who have come over and share their

expertise with us. How big an operation is it, then the? It it is

a significant logistical challenge. We have heard a relatively short

period to prepare for it. About 7000 police others as will be involved.

We are making sure that we carry on policing as usual in northerly

island. -- in Northern Ireland. are you most worried about? The

assistant chief constable is quoted as saying he expects terror attacks

during the summit... Sadly, there is always the possibility of a

terrorist attack in Northern Ireland. I would describe that for

us as business as usual. The threat level here has been severe for quite

some time. But we have had a significant uplift in our

counterterrorism efforts and resources. We are putting into

custody about one person a week at the moment, being charged, and that

threat level is being dealt with. But sadly, that is the reality of

life here. That threat is aimed at the police service Northern Ireland

and security personnel here, not at the summit itself. We will deal with

that, we will keep the pressure on. We have made arrests in the past few

days. There was that pipe bomb attack this week, some people

wondering whether republican dissidents are becoming more brazen,

as it was launched from a loyalist area? No, they always look at their

tax ticks. I cannot talk about that particular investigation, as you

will appreciate. But pipe bombs, that is something they have been

using for many years here. That threat is against security personnel

from the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and we have a significant,

successful effort going into containing that. There is always the

possibility here of an attack, in relation to business as usual. But

in relation to the summit, we are very well prepared, there has been

really affect of planning, and we are getting significant support from

across the UK and internationally. How are you going to balance the

desire for security with the right to protest adage we will make sure

that people that come over here to protest lawfully enjoy that right,

which is part of living in a democracy. The police service here

is very well experienced in managing large protest is. Last year we had

the Jubilee and the Ulster covenant march, which had 50,000 people on

the streets. Only recently, we were praised by the United Nations for

the way in which we police protests and public order. We do fat with a

very clear human rights framework. So, once again, we are used to this.

People that come here have a right to protest, and we will facilitate

that, but we are prepared for every possibility. I am guessing, the way

it is set up, the only chance the G8 leaders themselves will get to see

protesters is if they watch it on the news? There is very, very firm

security around the venue, as you would expect. I will not speak about

the details, but you can see by the scale of our operations, that will

be very tight indeed. Over the next few weeks, that will get even

tighter. That will not stop people going about their daily business in

Northern Ireland. The airports will remain open, and we will do

everything to make sure for the community Info manner and across

Northern Ireland that they can carry on with life as normal. How do you

balance that with what I presume are the desires of the security people

come for example, for the American and Russian Presidents? We work very

closely with our international partners. They have been part of the

planning and preparation. We do that through the Foreign & Commonwealth

Office. We have long-standing relationships with our American

partners and European partners, and we will work to make sure that the

needs of their leaders are facilitated. But do you have the

final say? Are you entitled to say to the American security people,

this is my shout? We are very much in charge of the security here, but

the Americans have been part of that, they listen to us. We do not

just let them do what they want in Northern Ireland, that would be

wrong, there is a residual threat here. We manage it very carefully

Let's take a look at the Sunday papers now. The Sunday Times has

that cash for access story, and you can see, a giant glass of wine, and

behind it is Lord Cunningham, who denies, along with all of the

others, any wrongdoing. The Sunday Telegraph has also picked up on that

Telegraph has also picked up on that story. It has got picture of the

Queen looking very happy. The Sun as this story about Tulisa Tulisa. The

Independent, again, the lobbying scandal, and the main picture, of

people we will be hearing from later in the programme, taking part in the

event at Twickenham last night. We will be speaking to Harvey Goldsmith

in a moment, or had quite a hand in that. This one, David Cameron has

held crisis talks at Downing Street after being told of allegations of a

sensational love affair, which has potentially significant political

indications for him. You will not find any names in here, though. But

there it is. And Scotland on Sunday, problems for the Scottish Tory

leadership, and Andy Murray on the front page. We welcome Jane Moore

and Harvey Goldsmith. What have you got? Well, I guess this is the key

story, here we go again, three Lords, Lord Cunningham, Lord

McKenzie and Lord Laird have got themselves embroiled in yet another

scandal of cash for access. I think this is rather sad, really,

although, at the end of it, I have to say, right at the end of the

story, there is a quote from Jack Cunningham, who says that he had

known he was speaking to undercover reporters during the meeting, he was

just testing their credibility. all deny wrongdoing, I should say.

Just to say, there is more than one Lord McKenzie. Our main headlines...

It is interesting, the News of the World was king of the sting, of

course, the undercover filming of people who are doing something

allegedly wrong. And you kind of think, is there anyone left in the

country that does not know that this kind of thing does go on? In this

case, all he had to do was make one phone call to the embassy or the

high commission and they would have told him straightaway. You would

think that with all the scandals that come out, even if he didn't do

it, someone in his office, one phone call only to check out the

validity. It is really about the all party Parliamentary groups and

whether they should be dragged out of the shadows. These are the groups

that the Patrick Mercer story is tied up with, that he was trying to

get a group to lobby to get embargo is on Fiji lifted. His quote - he

said the group included several freeloaders that would like to go to

Fiji, and one who had asked to take Fiji, and one who had asked to take

his wife. This is a problem with the electorate. We have page four of the

Sunday Telegraph saying isn't it time to be a little bit more

transparent about these groups and people's intentions. Obviously some

people have very good intentions when they join an all-party

parliamentary group. Your joint call to our politicians is to wise up?

All you have to do is check it out, it is so easy. All of these deny

wrongdoing, but don't be greedy, don't milk the system for the wrong

reasons, which is what we went through with MPs' expenses as well.

It is just wrong. Everybody wonders why there is such a disdain for

voting, then they look at Parliament and read this, and think why are we

bothering? You have a poll in the Telegraph? Yes, less than a quarter

of the public believes the government should arm the rebels in

Syria, but interestingly it shows that more than half, 58%, would

support offering humanitarian aid. Don't arm the rebels, but do help

the people affected by the conflict, and I think this is a very

interesting poll which the politicians should maybe take note

of because how many times are we going to interfere in what is

happening in another country and possibly do more damage? Already

this week we are seeing that Iraq is starting to flareup again, after

everything we supposedly did restore democracy. At least they do have a

government that has been voted in. Peter Hitchens, whether you agree

with his politics or not, his clarity of argument is very

compelling. He said imagine newspapers and broadcasters in China

denouncing the British government is calling it a regime, some strange

foreign people looking come here and start monitoring, and it becomes a

civil war. He says this is what we have done to Syria and he says we

are arming these rebels, the same Islamists who if they are on British

soil it is demanded they are deported, put under surveillance and

the rest. I think that is a very valid point, which I don't think the

government is particularly getting to grips with. That leads an two

apiece by Tony Blair in the Mail on Sunday, which basically says that of

course the view of the murder of Lee Rigby was horrific but he is

pointing out there are two different viewpoints. One is that it was a

crazy lunatic perverted by the idea of Islam, but the other view that he

is really putting forward is that this was an ideology which is

profound and dangerous. He is saying governments should speak out and get

to the root of this idea of the adherence of an ideology which is a

kind of strain within Islam. A lot of people might suggest to Tony

Blair that part of the reason we maybe have this extremism, and this

is the most extreme case of extremism we have had on these

shores, may have been flared up by our intervention in Iraq, creating

this kind of Britain hates Muslims... We don't, obviously, but

maybe that has instigated a lot of this. He has alluded to it, and

personally I think for Muslims to get their own house in order and

decide where they stand. It is difficult because there are at least

two key factions, the Shia Muslims and the Sunni Muslims who don't like

each other, and once the dictator leader of those territories

disappears, gets dethroned, it opens the doors and of course Syria is

just one horrific mess. I do hope that out of this horrific murder,

there does become a turning point. There was a fantastic picture at the

site where it happened with the flowers and whatever, where it was

full of Muslims paying their respects to Lee Rigby which I think

is the best sign yet that Muslim communities are saying this is not

what we are about. Let me get you onto the Dr Who story. Matt Smith,

my time is up as Dr Who. I have never heard of him so I do worry it

will become Matt Who in the future! David Tennant is in everything so

maybe Matt Smith looked at that and thought I can have this fantastic

acting career and I hope he is right. Speculation about a female Dr

Who next? Two yes, it is like when people ask Will we have a black

James Bond and so on. We have Olivia Colman, who has been winning awards

left, right and centre. We have Dame Helen Mirren. I suspect this girl,

the sidekick for Dr Who at the moment, people have said maybe she

will transmogrify. We had a fantastic concert last night, Chime

For Change, and there are so many issues we have been talking about

recently in the press of problems of abuse, rape cases, genital

mutilation and so on. I think one of the good things coming out of it,

for example in the Sunday express a piece about James Khan who came to

see me with his initiative. He has started up a start-up loan

business, which he got a small sum of money from the government and

made it work so well that they have now given him much more. His aim is

to get 25,000 young people in business with small start-up loans

and now he has turned to two great women to help him work and join

forces with them. The gig last night, did feel to you like live aid

for women? I think so. Chime For Change is an unusual organisation

because it was started by Beyonce and Salma Hayek, and the whole point

of last night was to really start to highlight the issue. Out of the

results of last night's show, 200 projects have already... We know

they are going to be funded and start working. What was different

from last night's show to previous fund-raising shows, for the first

time, everybody that bought a ticket, then money is going into the

cause and on Monday they will start receiving tokens from the collection

agency, and they will receive a token and they can choose which of

the causes they want their money to go to so they can really get

involved and be empowered by it. will be hearing from the three

co-founders later on. One final story, exotic plants? Kew Gardens

have drawn up a list of weird and wonderful edible plants but they say

everybody should try once. I think I might give the stinking toe amiss!

This story is about David Cameron who forgot his passport. We have all

done that! He has a whole army of staff. I mentioned flaming June,

Compared to this time yesterday, it will be that bit warmer and many

will be basking in sunshine. Here is the recent satellite sequence, you

can see the extent of the sunshine in England, Wales and Scotland. The

exception is Northern Ireland, and this cloud will bring some patchy

rain. The East of Scotland and all of England and Wales will have a

decent day with patchy cloud, sunny spells and light winds. Temperatures

may even reach 21 degrees in the south of London. Gradually we will

see some more cloud drifting its way across northern parts of the UK, but

we hang onto some clear skies in southern and eastern areas and it is

here we will see the lowest of the overnight temperatures, but also the

best of the morning sunshine. The amounts of cloud will increase, and

we will see some sunshine coming through. Overall it is a day of

sunny spells, temperature wise still doing really quite well. The

bloodshed in Syria shows no sign of abating and some commentators are

worrying that with greater Russian and perhaps European involvement in

the country we could be headed for a proxy Cold War. Others still fear

that Israel could be drawn in. The shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas

Alexander is here. There is still a peace conference that might be

peace conference that might be happening, what good might that do?

I sincerely hope the peace conference takes place because we

need to seek an inclusive political settlement that gives a credible

future for the communities within Syria. I feel that the judgement the

British government made to effectively break the European arms

embargo last week has not been the right one. The argument that they

advanced in admittedly difficult circumstances was the possibility of

arming the rebels could tip the conflict. At the same time they said

it would incentivise President Assad to come to the peace conference, but

I worry that if both the rebels and the government feel they are going

to get arms deals in the future the incentive to turn up may be

diminished. We want to avoid a situation where we see an escalation

in arms sales. Syria is awash with arms, and I have been calling for

many months for the kind of shuttle diplomacy that we have now seen from

John Kerry flying directly to Moscow to speak with the Russian Foreign

Minister because we need both the United States and Russia engaged in

this process if there is any chance of getting both sides to the table.

I was speaking to the Czech Foreign Minister this week and he sees a

contradiction in the British and French and the wider European

position in wanting everyone to sit down for talks, but saying that

President Assad cannot be part of the solution. I think there is a

question of choreography if you like. I don't think it should be a

precondition of the conference that President Assad goes, but I would

like to see him going. I would like to see representatives sitting down

in peace talks with others and we have to focus our efforts in the

coming days in making sure these talks happen because if we don't see

this process taken forward, I struggle to see what we are looking

at other than potentially a civil war with proxy fighters on each

side, lasting many years into the future. Diplomacy involves talking

with people with whom you profoundly disagree and that is why we need to

see the Syrian government represented. Your message to the

unarmed rebels is what? We are not unarmed rebels is what? We are not

They will be a film review. In sport, this story arms are being

channelled in by Saudi Arabia and by other countries. Given the proximity

other countries. Given the proximity of these peace talks, I think the

priority has to be to unify the opposition, rather than to arm the

opposition. What we have seen from the opposition has been complete

incoherence for many months. At the same time, we need to not take

actions which compromise the commitment of the Russians, or of

any potential parties, to participate in these very difficult

negotiations. How do you get the disparate groups in opposition in

Syria to unite? I think Western European politicians have a

responsibility to be clear with the rebels, that actually, the Geneva

process is the way forward. If we are saying, listen, if you do not

turn up at these talks, there is the prospect of arms, so the risk is

that the incentives will be pointing in the wrong direction. I am not

saying there is an easy solution, because if there was, frankly, it

would have been found. But I do believe that the diplomatic path

represents the best way forward. you think William Hague has made

Syria a more dangerous place? think there are serious doubts about

the judgment he exercised last week, along with the French, in demanding

the lifting of the arms embargo. It required unanimity, and basically,

the British and French said, we are simply not going to accept that it

continues after this weekend. I feel that with the best of motives, he

has ended up in a situation where peace talks may not happen, and we

all want to see that happen, including the British government, I

am sure. Talking about William Hague, on Europe this week, he is

quite keen for a yellow card system, as he put it, where individual

countries can say to the commission, have a think about this. He wants to

see a red card system, where individual countries can say no

joke. Are you in favour of that? Yes, I always agree with William

Hague when he agrees with me, because it was what I proposed at a

speech at Chatham house back in January. Maybe flattery is a form of

imitation, who knows? But I think we should recognise that even after a

few months, the government has got to the right place, in saying there

should be a greater role for national parliaments. There is no

big as agreement between the parties on the need for European reform, but

there are profound disagreements on the nature of that reform. They

would want to bring powers home to take rights away, but we disagree on

that. Back in January, I set out a broader reform agenda than David

Cameron and William Hague have done. You have kindly agreed to

answer all of my questions this morning without cash changing hands,

but that does not always seem to be the case in some of your

Parliamentary colleagues - what do you think of that adage any

right-thinking person this morning would feel angry. I am angry. I am

angry as a citizen of the United Kingdom that this seems to be

happening in Parliament, and I am angry as a politician that the good

name of the endeavour of politics, trying to find shared solutions to

shared problems, is once again being smeared by conduct which cannot be

defended. Of course, there needs to be proper investigations, but yes,

it does not just make me sad, it makes me angry. In the Labour Party,

we want to see cross-party talks immediately with the Government in

relation to lobbying, and how we can get it on a proper footing. We have

got to ask deeper issues in relation to the House of Lords. I think most

people simply do not understand why you can break the rules, in fact

break the law, and then find yourself back in the House of Lords

once you have undertaken a custodial sentence. There are specific issues

in relation to lobbying, but broader issues in terms of making sure that

people can have confidence as to the motives of the legislators, whether

in the Commons or in the Lords. So, you are suggesting that perhaps the

revolving door, if I can put it like that, people who have shown to have

done wrong, should not be allowed back in Parliament? I personally do

not see that that can be defended. If you break the law, and serve a

custodial sentence, then most people would not understand circumstances

in which a few months later, you are back in the House of Lords making

the laws of the country. For the Labour Party, if anybody in Labour

has shown to have done wrong, should they be expelled? First of all,

party discipline is a matter for the Chief Whip. Secondly, it is right

that people should have a chance to offer as an explanation. If

wrongdoing is proved, of course, action should be taken both by

Parliament and indeed by the Labour Party. But they do not deserve to

still be in the Labour Party if they were shown to have taken cash for

questions, do they? Why are you backing away from that? I am not, I

am saying there is a process that needs to be followed. If the rules

have been broken, then I think the Labour Party should take action. It

would be for the Chief Whip to decide, but I would be encouraging

her to do so. She is one of the biggest music

stars in the world, so, when beyond sane knolls lends her name to a

cause, it gets a fair bit of exposure. Last night, beyond say

brought her celebrity to Twickenham Stadium in London. They were there

to promote Chime For Change, a worldwide campaign to improve

education and opportunities for # Such a funny thing for me to try

Well, backstage yesterday, I met up with Beyonce, and the co-founders of

Time For Change. Watch out here for a delightful floral arrangement.

Tell me, I know this is a joint project, tell me about it, and how

it came about. Chime For Change is a great opportunity to talk about

empowerment of women and girls. The project was born a year ago. We

started to share ideas and we wanted to do something really special,

something with a very big voice for tonight, and also for the future. It

is not only an event, it is about a movement. That is why we have got

very strong women, with very strong personalities, people who are really

involved in these kind of causes. For me, it is not only important to

have the biggest stars on the stage, but also having people that are

really in love with everything, and can really talk about these issues

in a proper way. I do not suppose anybody would argue much with the

cause and with the goal - tell me about the method of getting to where

you want to be, why the concert, what do you hope it will achieve?

Well, it is not just the concert. The concert is really there to

support... It is new technology, because one of our partners is the

Gates foundation, where you can go to this site and find out all of the

different things which are happening to women around the world, and how

you can help. And it is in every single aspect of disrespect to

women, whether it is in the lack of education, or in health issues or in

injustice. We are not asking people for money for our charity. This is

not what it is, it is a movement. We are providing people the possibility

to participate on their own. Giving them the empowerment to say, this is

what I care about, I am worried about this, I do not know what I am

worried about but I want to do something good. A place for them to

go and see what is happening. So, the concert, of course, we are

raising money, which is going to go to the 200, we have right now,

different NGOs which have already been screened and investigated. That

is another thing. Sometimes people say, where is my money going to go?

Because of the technology, you can follow up and see what is happening

to those projects that you are supporting. So, the concert, it has

already raised a lot of money, just the concert, which is going to go to

these organisations. More than $4 million. Beyonce, why do you think

it is still necessary... ? Why are we waiting, I guess? That is why we

are here, so we can stop waiting and raise the awareness. We spoke about

this, and I was in disbelief, some of the statistics. I feel like there

are a lot of people but just do not think about it, just do not talk

about it cool why do women put up with it? We do not want to any more,

which is why we are here. It starts with change, and it starts with now.

It is not that women do not put up with it, they have no choice, they

are not protected. So, what change can they make? One interesting thing

about the concert tonight is that it is not just the voice of the

incredible arias, but Frieda has had a project to find the voice and the

stories of these women, that you have not heard, through short films,

through documentaries, and tonight, you are going to be able to listen

to them, to listen to their dreams. The artists are really inspiring,

but you will be really inspired by some of these amazing forces of

nature. What can they do? We can stick together, we have to have a

voice. We have to believe that it can change. And thinking about why

this is still necessary, I think you all have daughters - what do you

think will have changed in the world by the time they are your age?

course, it will change a lot in tonnes of education, and then of

course, everybody has got different stories. I think education is really

a key for the future, for the girls and women. A woman who can read can

really make a difference in their life. She can also make a difference

in the life of her own children. Beyonce, you have described yourself

as a modern feminist, so, is this modern feminism in action? Yes,

tonight has already sold out, and we have already started lives, which

makes me incredibly proud. For me, it is a sense of justice. If this

was happening for men, if men were in the situation that men were in in

the world, I would be fighting for men today with all my teeth and

nails. What would I like to see in the future? I wish in the short

future we cannot find a corner in the world where women do not have

access to human rights. Just finally, Frieda, are you worried

that somewhere in the world, somebody will be doing a cheap

version of this concert? ! No, not at all, thank you very much! Nick

Clegg is putting the country at risk with his opposition to the

Communications Data Bill, according to one of my guests, Lord West, who

was in Security Minister under Gordon Brown. Mr Clegg has support

for his stance from politicians in each party, including the senior

Conservative MP David Davis, who says the idea of the Government

monitoring the calls, e-mails and texts of everyone in the UK is

unnecessary and wrong. Lord West, David Davis, you are both very

welcome. Lord West - why does the Government need to know more about

what we are doing? It is not a question of knowing more. There are

two aspects to this bill. At the moment we are able to get access to

all of the details which are held by various companies of when a

telephone was used, where, and who they were calling. This is what I

like to describe as the envelope of the letter. We do not actually look

into the details and everything. It is able to do that. But because of

the new methods of talking to each other and communicating, we cannot

look at things like Skype, so those are unavailable to us. And also, the

companies are no longer keeping the material they used to keep, the

details of mobile phones and things. This was what alerted us to the fact

that we were going to lose that data. So, 95% of all prosecutions,

serious prosecutions, by the CPS, involve communications data, which

was slowly going to disappear. So, clearly, something needed to be done

to hold onto that, to hold on to something which has always been

available. And also, we have got new communication methods, so let's get

the same detail from that as well. That explains the technology, but

from the point of view of the Government, why is that information

necessary, what are you trying to do with it? It enables you to prove,

for example, that someone has lied about where they are. There is a

We are talking about the speculation over who will be the

next Doctor Who. What did you think when he heard that Matt Smith was

quitting? It came as a shock. It has come as a big shock to the fans

as well. The Doctor Who forum has lit up with people who are quite

dismayed that Matt Smith is leaving. It has come as a bit of a shock

considering it is the 50th anniversary year. It has put a bit

of a Downer on it, unfortunately, for me. What kind of a doctor did

he make question mark he has brought the classic Evelyn's --

elegance of the doctors that have come before and brought his own

persona to the screen as well. has been a very successful doctor

in my opinion. He has had the elements of Tom Baker before him. A

little bit of Sylvester What about the thought that the government just

wants to take a look at our envelopes. Last week, there was a

quote from somebody from MI5, saying, this would make no

difference whatsoever, and in fact, you would need to do other things to

deal with Woolwich, not this sort of thing. Now, look at the envelopes.

You raised the case of the murderer. Actually, there were nine pieces of

data, which were sitting around in police databases, never found. 77,

during the run-up to 7/7, MI5 knew about the two lead killers, and yet

did nothing about it, because they had too much data. How much better

off they going to be if they have got 16 million people on a database?

That is part of the problem. At the moment Lord West is right, they can

track pretty much every phone in the country. In effect, we are tagged by

our mobile phones. They use it 500,000 times a year, sometimes for

traffic offences. What is your worry about this? I don't want to give the

state vast amounts of data. They have already got vast amounts of

data. In my opinion too much. We know they use them for things as

mundane as traffic offences. It is not just the fact that it is large

amounts of data, it is also illustrated. If you look at

everybody's e-mail, text, phone calls and so on, you know who they

are, who they are talking to, which web addresses they use. I don't

think the previous or the current government really knew what they

intended to do with it. It is quite clear this is used in many cases, it

is crucial information prosecuting serious crimes and terrorism. The

data is held by these companies. One of the committees was a cross-party

committee that came up with a mass of recommendations and all of them

were taken, quite correctly, in the revised legislation. The joint

committee had all parties and people who didn't really like this sort of

thing, our overall conclusion is this is a case for legislation that

will provide the law authorities with further access to communication

data. It was meant to be in the Queen's speech and was withdrawn

because the Deputy Prime Minister decided he could score a point on

this. It seems to me that... All I would say is that he has had some

problems at certain political points and this is a political point. I

don't believe he has really taken full cognizance of what the security

implications really are. You're saying the Deputy Prime Minister is

putting party political points before national security? He has not

taken full cognizance of the full implications. Because he is getting

advice from all sorts of people saying this is wrong or whatever, if

I can just finish. You started down this process five years before you

went out of government and never did it because of practical problems.

Secondly, I think it is cheap to attack the Deputy Prime Minister. I

am not one of his fans, but this is the same stand of principle taken by

David Cameron and to Reza May before the election so I don't think you

can take that line. You cannot name one case where this would have

solved the problems which you don't have now. There is not a single case

you can point to where this would have been prevented with this

information. This is one of the crucial thing is that is required in

prosecuting serious cases and I cannot see what the problem is with

maintaining this capability. Indeed in the Queen's speech it was

mentioned that we try to get IP addresses. We know they are crucial,

we know that when you are doing these investigations, being able to

identify who people are talking to, where they were, these things are

very important and we are just tying one hand behind the back. The real

problem is I think looking into e-mails, and a lot of private

companies do this. I want to ask about lobbying. What do you think

about what some of your colleagues appear to have been up to? If the

rules have been broken, action should be taken and it does look

awful from the clips I have seen. wrongdoing has been proved by

members of the House of Lords for example, and they get into a lot of

trouble for it, should they still be in the House of Lords? I think if

people are proved to have comprehensively broken the rules,

there should be a mechanism by which people should cease to be in the

House of Lords. I think it would be right they should go because it

makes the average man in the street think I'm on a minute, they should

maintain certain standards. I don't know the details of the expulsion

mechanism of the House of Lords and I don't want to comment on the guilt

or innocence of the individuals concerned. There is nothing wrong

with lobbying, I get lobbied every day, but it has got to be

transparent and clear what is going on. That is the real requirement.

Thank you. Now we have a news update for you. Three members of the House

of Lords have been accused of agreeing to carry out Parliamentary

work for payment. Labour peers Lord Cunningham and Lord Brian Mackenzie,

and the Ulster Unionist Lord Laird were filmed by undercover reporters

who were pretending to be from fictitious companies. All three

peers have denied breaking any rules. Speaking on this programme,

Douglas Alexander called for cross-party negotiations, saying any

person would be angry about the latest allegations. I am angry that

this seems to be happening in parliament and angry as a politician

that the good name of the endeavour of politics, trying to find shared

solutions to shared problems is once again smeared by what appears to be

conduct that cannot be defended. also talked about the situation in

Syria and called into question the British government's judgement in

pushing for the EU arms embargo to be lifted. He said he feared that

was a wrong decision because Syria was already awash with weapons and

the possibility of receiving more might discourage the rebels from

taking part in peace talks planned in Geneva next month. The next news

on BBC One is just before six o'clock. Now let's look at what is

coming up after the show. We will have big questions on the

environment, asking if man's dominion has been good for the

planet. BBC One at ten o'clock. We welcome back Douglas Alexander,

Lord David Davis, Lord West and the musician Alison Moyet whose new

album is just out. Welcome to the programme. I read that you said this

album has been your most enjoyable studio experience, how come? On this

occasion I have taken stuff away from the record companies making

them. At this stage in your career, the only thing anyone wants to make

is a best of album. I made it just with Gary, who is playing with me

today, and I was happy because he didn't argue! How long ago was this?

It looks like the 1980s to me. 1987 perhaps? You were happier with

the music then, but happier now? used to play the pub circuit and pop

just happened to me so I learnt my job as I was doing it. Consequently

later on you look back and think I might not have made those choices if

I had had a better learning ground. I remember the first time I ever did

television, I did top of the Pops and they started filming, and I

thought I haven't even figured out what I am going to do with my feet!

I love your new album, I will let you get ready to do a track from it.

You are here on good morning, we have had Alison Moyet, Beyonce...

will get a lot of cred from our kids! That's almost it for today.

Sophie Raworth will be here next Sunday at nine on BBC One, and

she'll be joined by the former Tory MP turned ballroom dancer, Ann

Widdecombe, and the actor Dan Stevens will be here to discuss life

after Downton Abbey. Until then, we leave you now with Alison Moyet.

From her new album, this is pictures in a dream # no dumping

# you jumped too soon, something beautiful happened. # All there is

are these beautiful minutes # we will wait on, we will wait on # I

fell into a cinema, I didn't know where else to be # sitting out the

trip or three, I thought I wanted frippery # that girl five seats down