09/06/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

up with spy stories - the excitement of fictional secret agents and

shadowy security services. James Bond battles Spectre, the Man From

Uncle had a foe called Thrush. This weekend we learn there really is a

shadowy operation called Prism and it knows exactly what we are up

to... Allegedly. This morning we might even learn where the fiction

ends and the fact begins. That surveillance story features

prominently in this morning's papers. Joining me to review them -

the actress and writer Sheila Hancock, and Tim Montgomerie of The

Times. Labour has called on the Foreign Secretary to come to

Parliament tomorrow and make an "urgent" statement on what one

senior Conservative MP calls "quite a scandal". William Hague is here.

I'll be asking him if it's true that the UK obtained data on the internet

activity of British people via the US National Security Agency. We'll

also be discussing the latest developments in Syria. Is it now

time to arm the rebels and should parliament have a say? After a week

in which the Opposition finally seemed to sign up to Coalition

spending plans for the foreseeable future, the Shadow Work and Pensions

Secretary, Liam Byrne, will be here to give more detail on how a Labour

government would manage public spending and reform the welfare

system. As an MP and as a Government minister, Ann Widdecombe was never

far from the headlines. But of course, her public image really took

off outside Parliament. Strictly brought her a whole new

constituency. She's written her autobiography and will be here later

to talk party politics, passion, and the paso doble!

Having died in Downton, he's now living it large in America. The TV

star Dan Stevens will be here to talk about his new film, a very

personal project. Plus, having conquered Broadway, how Hollywood

beckons. All that and more in a short while. First, the news with

Sian Lloyd. Good morning. Nelson Mandela has

spent a second night in hospital. The former South African President,

who is 94 years old, is being treated for the recurrence of a lung

infection. A presidential spokesman said Mr Mandela is now able to

breathe unaided which is a positive sign. He remains in a serious but

stable condition. Frail and rarely seen in public,

Nelson Mandela has spent a second night in hospital. The 94-year-old

former South African president is suffering from a lung infection once

again. It is his third spell in hospital in the past six months. In

March he was treated for pneumonia. His condition deteriorated to the

point where it was necessary to hospitalise him. His condition is

serious, but he is stable. Nelson Mandela continues to be seen as an

icon of the past century, the man who led South Africa into a new era

after 27 years in jail, emerging to be the first leader after the end of

white minority rule. Yet there is an understanding he is now an old man.

I think the majority of the South African population have resigned

themselves to the fact that he is in his advanced stages and he will pass

away eventually. Because he has been in so many times and out so many

times, you assume he will be out again this time. As a country I

guess we start assuming the worst as well. Nelson Mandela has confounded

expectations. We hope that this time he will fight back once again.

Nelson Mandela continues to have respect.

The chairman of the Commons Energy and Climate Committee, Tim Yeo, is

facing allegations that he helped a private company influence

parliament. The Sunday Times claims he coached the boss of a firm, owned

by a company that was paying him, before the businessman gave evidence

to the committee. Mr Yeo was secretly filmed by investigators

from the newspaper, posing as representatives of a green energy

Mr Yeo denies the allegations and says he will contest them. BBC News

understands that he has referred himself to the Parliamentary

standards commissioner. The intelligence agency GCHQ will

report to the security watchdog within days over claims it spied on

people's Internet use. It's accused of accessing data through a US spy

programme called Prism. Apple, Facebook, Microsoft and Google have

all denied giving Government agents access to their servers. Labour says

the public deserves an explanation. Labour said ministers should address

what it called the very real public concerns about the claims made in

recent days. The Shadow Foreign Secretary called on William Hague to

come to the Commons on Monday to make an urgent statement. This has

raised very real public concerns so I am calling on William Hague to

come to the House of Commons on Monday and set-up the government's

response to members of Parliament government said it did not routinely

comment on security discussions with other administrations.

The Duke of Edinburgh has spent a third night in hospital after

exploratory abdominal surgery on Friday. Prince Philip, who will

celebrate his 92nd birthday tomorrow, is expected to spend two

weeks in hospital. He is said to be progressing satisfactorily. That's

all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines just before ten

o'clock. Back to you, Sophie. In the papers, let's start with the Sunday

Times, this row that a Tory MP coached clients before grilling.

Scotland on Sunday this morning, teachers' fear of touching hands

pupils, it is said the pendulum of safety has swung too far. A lot of

pictures of Nelson Mandela on the papers today and inside. The Sunday

Telegraph, Minister attacks EU jobs madness, a minister accused of not

living in the real world over the row of data laws. The Observer this

morning, talking of data, ministers forced to reveal the British link to

the US data spying scandal and we will be talking to William Hague

about that later in the programme. A great picture of Serena Williams

there. This is about the G8 food summit in London yesterday,

thousands of people turning up for that. A story in the mail about a

gay soldier has told how Prince Harry bravely rescued him from a

terrifying homophobic attacks by squaddies from arrival regiment. The

Sunday express, Cancer risk of two pints of beer a year. The Sun going

on what they call the eggs factor. And with me to review the papers are

Sheila Hancock and Tim Montgomerie. Sheila, what would you like to talk

about? I am fascinated by this new Sunday Sun, which seems to be an

advert for underwear, and there seemed to be a lot of ladies wearing

underwear. The main story I am grateful for business story of

Silicon Valley getting data. There is a very good article in the

Independent looking at this whole thing of privacy. The whole attitude

to privacy seems to have changed. Does anybody care any more? Children

are tweeting and putting themselves on Facebook. Nobody seems to mind

people knowing about their lives. There is a bit at the end saying

once upon a time, people read books and wrote letters and spies talked

to each other on park benches. Maybe ancient habits were not so bad after

all. But it has also happened so quickly, hasn't it? Before we get

our knickers in a twist about privacy, I think we should examine

what the younger generation think about privacy. I suspect when I am

dead and gone, people won't give a dam about whether they are looking

at their e-mails any more. There is a good cartoon in the Sunday

Telegraph, pairing spying and what it was to what it now is. There is a

man on the park bench looking through his nukes paper, and today

it is the desktop, the computer in our own homes. It has happened so

quickly. You have extreme pornography available, and privacy,

these sort of things depend on our morality and attitude, and there

will always be people that abuse it. That is the worrying thing. There is

privacy about your private e-mails, and the other argument that it is a

fight against terror and where you draw the line. I think a lot of

people watching this programme now would probably like the government

to be on top of these security threats and I think the key thing is

not whether the government is inspecting these communications, it

is whether it is approved and monitored. I think what frightens

people is the idea that the security services are somehow acting beyond

the law. They don't mind of their private e-mails are being looked at?

I think some clearly do, but the bulk of people want our security

services to be looking at people who are threat on our security. But do

we trust the oversight people? people would be more worried if our

government and authorities were not examining the threats on us. Let's

move on to the story we were talking about earlier, David Cameron saying

he wants more action on online pornography, something that is

incredibly accessible now. This is a subject I know you have covered

before for the BBC, Sophie, but in terms of worrying the parents and

the public, the access that children now have two extraordinary, crude,

ugly images on their mobile phones, on the computers they have in their

bedrooms, this is what worries parents. Parents are often less able

to understand how to filter this information than their children.

don't want parents seeing it either, I don't want anybody to be

given a platform. I agree with you and some of the worst forms of this

pornography, especially images of children, should absolutely be

outlawed. I think the challenge that David Cameron and Claire Perry are

making is that these Internet firms like Google are incredibly

libertarian in their attitudes to these things, not willing to control

any of these images that people can access and we need to force them to

be more responsible. And a lot of parents want to know why you cannot

opt in. When I was young we had heavy censorship and it was awful,

but we never imagined that when it was abolished it would lead to this

extremity. Let's look at this story you have picked up here. A woman

writing about her mother who has dementia and she is terribly ill.

She tried to commit suicide and she was resuscitated at the hospital. It

is opening up again this question about whether you have the right to

die, and also saying that you should talk about your death. I'm getting

to the age now where I am preparing the death. Not in a morbid way!

have never been more alive! I want to tidy things up so my kids don't

have a mess when I leave, and I want them to know that if I go dotty,

which I am on the verge of doing, I want them to know how I want to be

cared for. There are things we should discuss and as a society we

should discuss this. I think a lot of that abuse on the idea of

assisted dying have gone. People are not as deeply religious as they used

to be, their attitudes towards deaths have changed and society has

not moved with it. You say I am preparing the death and people are

surprised. We are all going to die. We have two old guys looking face in

the death this week, Nelson Mandela and Prince Philip. The more we talk

about it so that people die well, the better. The reason why I am

slightly worried about the right to die is that for some people it

becomes a duty to die. Some people do not have good children who think

about inheriting the home. Keeping the law more or less as it is gives

them an absolute detection that society will always look after them.

We will get you back for that one. Let's move on. Your story is about

Nelson Mandela, who is in a serious situation but stable this morning.

Yesterday we all woke up to the fear that Mandela was at death store.

Perhaps he might be. But this story in the Sunday Telegraph today really

does remind us how frail he is. At Christmas he spent three weeks in

hospital before -- because of the lung infection. A couple of months

ago, he was in hospital for ten days. The story talks about how he

is with his friends and family and he does not even want to conversion.

The president said yesterday that we should all be praying for his health

and his family. I think his health is probably a lost cause. He is

dying, there is nothing wrong with that. When you listen to the

response from South Africa, it seems that people are more prepared than

they were. Previously people have not use the word serious, but now

the South African authorities seem to be preparing us that it may not

be long before he slips away. story is Prince Philip. I thought it

was lovely when the Queen came yesterday and said, he is not ill. I

do not know the Queen. None of us do. We only know the press version

of her. But one cannot help thinking that he has been the most enormous

support to her, if only for a good laugh. This is a really good profile

of him. It is a lovely picture. He's always putting his foot in it. He

asked the blind army is how much site he had. Not a lot, he said,

judging by the ties he is winning. The pure Queen, she has to do

ceremonies and be nice and shake hands. To go home to a Gary Hooper

routes is fitting that the whole time must use such a relief to her.

I hope he is going to be all right for her sake. The next story is

about the events yesterday in height Park. Yes 45,000 people came

together for a rally against world hunger. We knock ourselves as a

nation, we are self-deprecating, but we have here Bill Gates, an

American. He is saying that written should be incredibly proud in the

role that we play in fighting world hunger. Not everyone agrees with

every aspect of the aid budget, but most people think that tackling

hunger, providing vaccinations for children in the previous parts of

the world for diseases like malaria, Britain is a world leader in this,

even at the time of a steady two point budgets are tight. We have

found the money to meet the .7% target. And there was a big rally

that has hardly been covered by most of the newspapers. Interestingly, I

think that the aid budget and gay marriage are probably two of the

issues that cause David Cameron some of the biggest problems he has with

his backbenchers. A lot of the things that this government does

will be forgotten, but when David Cameron retires from politics, what

he has done for the world's purist and in introducing gay marriage, he

will be very proud of it. Another Tory MP has gone on the record to

say that it is time for David Cameron to go. The problem for David

Cameron is that some of these issues that may be historically significant

are some of the reasons why he is unpopular. He is the second MP to go

on the record. Do you think it is serious? I think he is safe. There

is no one in Parliament just now who could lead the Conservative Party

more successfully at the next election. His point of vulnerability

will, after the European elections. If the Tories are not doing well in

the opinion polls then, there could be a push against his leadership.

But Labour's opinion polls that this middle stage of Parliament are

actually quite modest. I think you're right that he should be

commended to have the courage to stand up to the right wing of his

party. Your final story.This is about the fact that they are going

to stop people going in the slow lane of the time. It was either that

or this. Vladimir Putin, he's ditching his wife. He is and not

man. Here we have this world leader who goes around having photos of him

wrestling with bears. I am really worried about it. There is an

appetite for it in Russia. I am worried that he is in his edition of

power and he is totally mad. If you look at so many of the problems in

the world, whether it is silly or the oppression of human rights in

his own country, Russia is becoming a real problem again. We are not

worried enough. I shall have to leave it there. Thank you for coming

in. After the coldest May for decades, Jean started rather well

with the hottest day of the year so similar to what had yesterday. There

will be more sunshine developing of the day goes on. The best of the

warmth and the sunshine will be in the West again. There is a lot more

cloud around this morning, coming from the North Sea. Sunshine will

develop widely through the day. It will always be on the cloudy side

across the eastern coastal counties where it will stay cool. In the

sunshine, around 20 degrees, and as high as 24 degrees in Northern

Ireland. That is the last time we will get that for quite some time,

because this is waiting in the wings, low pressure in the Atlantic.

Monday will be another dry day everywhere. It will be a great

start, but the cloud will thin and break. Even across eastern areas it

will be better. Temperature is not quite as high as today. Around 18

degrees. Tomorrow sees the start of the grasscourt tennis season at

Queens club. By Tuesday, there will be a change of fortunes. The eastern

side of the UK will enjoy the best of the weather. In the West, we will

Widdecombe developed a fearsome reputation. As a minister, she

grappled with some of the toughest issues, including pensions,

immigration and presence. She was known for the strength of her

Christian faith, and for her other convictions, against foxhunting, in

favour of the death penalty and advocating zero tolerance of drugs.

No one could have predicted that when she retired she would become

the darling of prime-time television, with her celebrated run

on Strictly Come Dancing. Now she has written about all these

experiences in her the biography, Strictly Ann, which covers her

childhood in Singapore and her heady days as a student. You see in your

book that it was always a dream to become a politician and a writer,

but you would never have imagined the rest? No. If anyone had said to

me that you're going to be dancing for three months on prime-time

television and then you're going to be touring the country in a live

band show and you're going to be going into pantomime, and you will

also be in Covent Garden in the Royal Opera house, I would have

said, lie down and have an aspirin. You were driven from an early age

where you knew exact and where you wanted to go. Yes, I formed

political ambitions quite early. In those days there was a massive

division between the parties, there was socialism and not new Labour. I

felt driven to fight socialism. moved around a lot as a child, you

were in Singapore for the time with your family. You grew up as an only

child, virtually, because your brother was so much older. Where did

you get your politics from? I am not sure. Politics were discussed at

home, but my father was a civil servant, so he could never take a

public position on the matter. At that time, it is easy to forget 20

years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, but when I was coming to

political maturity, the world was sharply divided into two conflicting

political ideologies. There was a real battle for the future of the

globe based on capitalism versus communism. It was a long slog freely

to get to Westminster, to get to Parliament. You set yourself a

deadline, you had to be there by the age of 40. I got there by 39 and a

half. You had a lot of knock backs? You say that, but in those days,

there was now a list. You could not get a seat because you were women.

-- because you were a woman. You had to earn your spurs. I won in

Maidstone. You call yourself a nod ball in the book. The Westminster

oddball who was so unaccountably popular in the country. You mention

that work quite a lot. Is that how people perceive you? I know that is

how people perceive me, so I add knowledge it. -- so I acknowledge

it. Does that annoy you? It does not annoy me, it is a fact of life. You

are how you are perceived in politics. There was always a

caricature in the public domain. I have never had the slightest doubt

about my image, I am extremely hard and all the rest of it. Those things

are not true, but at Westminster I was seen as being a little strange.

You're pretty rude about David Cameron in your book. It headed and

dismissive of everything that has gone before. I am not quite as rude

as the selected quotes suggest. I say he is talented and able, and I

found him big headed. I am worried that he is now pigheaded. Suppose I

decided I was going to introduce a foxhunting ban while leading the

Conservative Party. It would be a recipe for disaster. I do not

understand why David Cameron decided to adopt a lying on gay manager that

was completely at odds with the party, the country and the majority

of his MPs, at a time when he is in coalition and not in the strongest

position to do what he wants. think the Conservatives can win the

next election? Yes, I do, if nothing else... With David Cameron at the

helm? Yes, because when people put crosses and papers, they will

remember the outgoing note of the Treasury Minister, for Labour, Liam

Byrne, he said, there is nothing left. We are going through a

terrible time trying to put it right. We are trying to put it

right. Does it annoy you that you did not get European age? You think

that David Cameron blocked that? is his decision whether I get one or

not. I covered it in the book, because if I did not, people would

say I was an happy about it. Does that annoy you? Know it does not.

When I stopped being an MP, I knew that I could do things like Strictly

because I was no longer obliged to behave like an MP. When you got into

Strictly, you were really embraced by the British public. All those

years, you were referred to as a nod ball, was that the moment when you

were accepted? It was certainly the moment when a lot of people who

would not previously have done so warm to me. One of the greatest

things was the impact it had on children. It is small people who, to

me and recognise me, not the people who watch the new success of flu. It

was just wonderful. And what next for Ann Widdecombe? You say that

you're going back to Latin, you're going to learn how to become more

fluent in Latin? I would like to revive the Latin skills which I have

let lapse completely. But there are lots of things I would like to do. I

am retired so I have the time to do them. It has been a pivotal week for

Labour, with Ed Miliband calling for a cap on a large portion of the

welfare bill. Two years out from the general election, there is limited

detail on their manifesto, but winter fuel payments would be

scrapped. I am joined now by the shadow work and pensions Secretary,

Liam Byrne. You have finally bought into this austerity agenda, it

seems? Well we cannot go on like this. I

think what people want to hear now from Labour is how would you be

different in 2015? We can be radical with power and realistic with money,

which means we need some fundamental form of security. It was interesting

listening to it last week because we remember Ed Miliband at the

beginning of this year saying benefit cuts work punitive, they

must not happen, so what's changed? If we were in government today, we

would be doing things differently. I cannot explain why the richest

citizens are getting tax cuts and the poorest are seeing their

benefits being taken away at such a pace they are relying on food banks.

You were famously the person who left your successor that note at the

Treasury saying good look, the money has run out. Why has it taken Labour

so long to come to this conclusion? What we have got to do, with two

years to go before the election is show how we would be different.

There are some tough edges, we cannot disguise that, and Ed balls

said there would be a triple lock on spending. That means cuts, where

will they fall? You have to put in reform, starting with more concerted

action to get people back into work. You explain that last week, but what

about cuts? Where would they fall? Invariably you would have to make

cuts and that is not what you have explained in any detail. We have

said we want to bring some spending levels down. At the moment we spend

about �30 billion on tax credits as a country, so we are asking why are

we subsidising low pay? Let's take another example, housing benefit. We

spend �24 billion a year on housing benefit, that has risen by 1

billion. We are saying give more latitude to manage those budgets.

would take time for that, so in the short term what happens? Let's say

you get into power in two years, you would have to make cuts but you seem

nervous about using that word. at all, but at the moment we don't

have a cap on social security spending, so the government can sit

back and let failing programmes continue failing. The work programme

at the moment is literally worse than doing nothing but because there

is no long-term cap on security spending, Iain Duncan Smith can sit

back and say whatever. If you have a cap on that spending you cannot do

that. If you have a failing programme, you have got to sort it

out. This tackles low pay, housing benefit and getting people back into

work. It is the only long-term reform you can put in place. What

about winter fuel payments, you said you will remove those? Is this

principle of universalism over now? Every generation has got to reset

the balance between universal benefits on the one hand and

targeted benefits on the other. In the next election there will be

important universal benefits we campaign on, like the flat rate

pension. That is good idea, but it is not and we think it should be.

But you have got to reset the balance, so other targeted benefits

we don't think that are affordable, and winter fuel payments for people

like Ann and others are not affordable. What about TV licences

and bus passes? I think the bus passes are important in keeping

older People's connections with the world, but we would be clearer on

that nearer the time. Ed Miliband acknowledged that when you were in

power you didn't do enough to rein in the welfare bill. Some spending

went up, pensions and tax credits, and there were some things that if

we were reliving that time again we would do differently. We would have

been a lot faster on reforming incapacity benefit and we should

have been building more homes as well. Look at the levels of rent in

London, going up and up. You spent too much money, you left that note

about the money running out. truth is out of work benefits, that

bill, it felt. The note said it all, you spent too much money. After

recession, the spending goes up but the problem is it is not coming down

again. We have got to put the system back on an even keel for the

long-term and it will take long-term reform to do that. The Conservative

Way is failing. The gigantic global success of Downton Abbey made him

one of the most famous faces on TV, around the world, and of his career

goes to plan, Dan Stevens will be just as much a hit on the big

screen. His new feature film is a love triangle set in Cornwall about

a group of English artist on the eve of the great War. It has been a

labour of love for him in many ways and Dan Stevens joins me this

morning. Tell us more about the film, Summer In February. A teacher

at school became on tour and friend of mine, and I read the book when I

was about 14 so the book has lived with me half of my life really. We

always talked about it becoming a film, mostly joking in the early

days but everybody who read the book became enchanted with it, thought it

would make a wonderful film. When I became an actor and as things

progressed, it looked more likely that this could happen. I teamed up

with a number of other people passionate about the book and the

story and it is an extraordinary story about this girl who goes down

to Cornwall and falls in love with two different men, and they fall in

love with her, and this tragic love triangle, the divide between the

upstanding man and the roguish rock 'n' roll artist. It is a classic

narrative but it is true and often the narratives and mysteries of our

own lives are more fascinating than fiction really. It shows a lot of

guts on your part because you are the hit in Downton Abbey and the

next thing is a film you have produced, a labour of love,

something you have wanted to do since you were 14. Did it feel like

a risk? It is always a risk when making a film, it is a risky

business but this has been in development for about seven years.

The teacher who wrote this book is the man who propelled due to

Cambridge and from there on to your acting career which landed you in

Downton. Yes, we stayed great friends and he always encouraged my

love of acting and literature and the new Cambridge would be a good

spot for me, and he was right. It makes me incredibly proud to think

how far we have come and it is about 15 years since we met. You broke so

many hearts when you left Downton. Let's have a look. Where are the

others? Back at the house, panting to see you, to see you both, but I

have sent mother to keep them at bay. I wanted a chance to be alone

with my family. You had better go and tell them. But first I think I

have earned a decent case. certainly, certainly have. And then

you go and die. Quite an extreme way to get out of changing nappies.

happened on Christmas Day! You are not supposed to die on Christmas

day, I think, but it spoke well to the show, to the character, that

people were so upset. Was Julian Fellowes genuinely quite angry about

it? No, he understands the life of an actor and for me it felt like the

right time. It was obviously a three-year engagement, they wanted

it to run on and the me it was time to move on. You look so different

for a start, is this life in America? I have just done a film

with Liam Neeson in America, and each role requires different

hairstyles, accents, it is part of the job. What is it like in

America? I am enjoying it.Is that the future? For the time being, I am

back here for the summer, and just move around with the work really.

When my family can travel, they will, and it is an exciting time.

And Summer In February is out this week? On Friday.Allegations the

government has been making use of Americans by surveillance to watch

over Internet activity have provoked a backlash. Conservative MPs have

voiced their grave concerns and senior US intelligence figures are

worried that any major revelations could be damaging to America's

relationship with the UK. The Foreign Secretary William Hague

oversees the UK is eavesdropping centre GCHQ and joins me now. Where

you surprised by the revelations? think I have been around long enough

not to be surprised by any revelations about anything but there

are some things people need to know about how we handle intelligence. I

will give a statement to Parliament on this tomorrow and the committee

will be fully entitled to look at all aspects of our intelligence

gathering. People need to know that intelligence gathering in this

country is governed by a very strong legal framework so we need to get

the balance right between the liberties of people and the security

of the country, and that provides not for trawling through people's

phone calls, it provides for intelligence gathering that is

authorised, necessary, proportionate, and targeted.

Targeted on what we really need to know. Of course we share a lot of

information with the United States, that has been the case since the

Second World War. The US and the UK have an exceptional relationship,

but if information arrives in the UK from the United States, it is

governed by our laws and GCHQ has been praised by the commissioners

for the highest standards of integrity and legal compliance.

you know about Prism? I can never confirm or deny in public what

Britain knows about and what Britain doesn't, for obvious reasons. Once

we start doing that, the terrorists we are trying to defeat build up the

picture. The intelligence and Security committee can look at that.

It is all over the papers, the allegations, the company that has

supposedly been targeted. Are you going to be able to tell the British

public whether or not Prism exists and whether you have been getting

information on British citizens from it? No, we can talk about the

framework in which we do things. We cannot possibly get into we exactly

do this or that. That gives to the very people that we are trying to

keep this country safe from the information they need to know about,

how they can get around what we do. If Prism is being used, it looks

like you are getting around the legal structures in place because

you can get information from US Internet companies but you have to

apply for it. It looks like the maybe three years you have been

getting information without legally applying for it. When people get

partial information about what is a vast, complex picture, all sorts of

things can look true or untrue. It follows about what I was seeing

earlier about the very high standards of legal compliance of

GCHQ and the strong legal framework that this country has. I know GCHQ

very well and I authorise operations most days of the week by GCHQ. The

idea that in GCHQ people are sitting working out how to circumvent a UK

law with another and -- with another agency, another country, it is

fanciful. You do have to authorise it, so if this had been going on,

you would know about it, you would authorise it. David Davis says it is

highly unlikely that you and to reason they knew this was going on?

Ministers give authority to the actions of GCHQ. We can say that in

general terms. That is also worth a word about so that people understand

the extent of the checks and balances in the system. Intelligence

gathering operations by GCHQ MI5, they come to me or the Home

Secretary personally. It is not something delegated to a junior

minister. We take our duties very seriously. We spend hours on these

things every week. Every request comes with clear legal advice and

the justification for any interceptions. Our decisions are

then subject to continual review by an interception Commissioner and our

work is subject to the scrutiny of the cross-party intelligence and

security committee. We read that there was something like 109 the

requests for information from Prism. -- something like 190 requests.

cannot possibly confirm nor deny those things. But the legal

framework is strong. The ministerial oversight is very strong. The net

effect of all that, and people who are concerned about these things

having listened to the media, the net effect is that if you are a

law-abiding citizen of this country going about your business and your

personal life, you have nothing to fear. You have nothing to fear about

the British state of intelligence agencies listening to the contents

of your phone calls at anything like that. You will never be aware of all

those things those agencies are doing to stop you attended the being

stolen and to stop terrorists blowing your tomorrow. -- to stop

your identity being stolen. But if you are a terrorist or a member of

foreign intelligence agency trying to spy Britain, you should be

worried, because that is what we work on and we are, on the whole,

quite good at it. It is one thing to say to the British public, the

threat level is so high that we need to look at this sort of stuff. It is

another thing to do it covertly and not tell people at all. They'd

argued reasons. They are totally legitimate and understandable

questions, but I cannot accept the premises of all the questions. Why

do we not tell people how we go about gathering intelligence? It is

because some thought goes into to the part of terrors and criminal

networks as to how they can communicate without GCHQ ordered the

Secret Service finding out about them. If we could tell the whole

world and the whole country how we do this business, people would be

enormously reassured by it. They would see that the law-abiding

citizen has nothing to worry about, but if we did that, it would defeat

the objective. This is secret work, secret intelligence, and it is

secret for a reason, protecting the people of this country. You will

have lots of unanswered rice genes, even if you make a statement to the

Commons tomorrow. That is in the nature of intelligence. Let's move

on to Syria. MPs are very keen to have a vote before they make a

decision on arming the rebels. have not made any such decision. It

is a very important and clearly controversial decision. People have

strong views about it. We have made clear this week that although there

is not an established procedure for that, we have a good record in going

to the House of Commons for a vote. There would be a vote one way or

another. Before the decision was made? Well, there is no established

procedure for it but I cannot see why it would not be before any such

decision was implemented. We would not use a Parliamentary recess to

say, we cannot consult Parliament cause it is the of August. MPs do

not have to be concerned about that. But the main thing is the issue of

what we do about Syria. We are engaged in intense diplomacy to try

and get a Geneva peace conference together. But as things stand today,

the world is failing the people of Syria who are being killed and tens

of thousands, tortured and abused, and driven from their homes. We have

failed so far to protect them. want to confirm, you will give a

vote to MPs before a decision is made, and if Parliament is in

recess, with Parliament be recalled, because obviously the

events in Syria are worsening of the time? If we were making such a

decision and it was controversial, there would be a huge demand for the

recall of Parliament. I think I can be very reassuring to MPs about this

subject. But in a way that is a procedural question. There is a

bigger foreign policy, ethical dilemma about what we do. People

have understandable concerns about the idea of sending arms to anybody

in Syria. We would all be rather reluctant to do that, but on the

other hand, people are being killed in huge numbers when the world

denies them the means to defend themselves. You want to get to the

point where you can have negotiations with President Assad.

But he knows that written, France, America, you want him to go. What

incentive is there for him to come to the table if your arm the

rebels? We need more pressure on the regime to come to the negotiating

table and be realistic. They must understand that you're never going

to be able to undertake the total military conquest in subjection of

their country by force. That would leave permanently unstable country

and region and the need to come to a political solution with the

opposition. A transitional government made up of the regime and

opposition. We are doing hard work trying to make sure that the

opposition coming to such negotiations. You look at resident

Assad last week, you look at the victory in the south-west, he is on

the front feet, he seems to be emboldened by? The regime has gained

ground that the cost of the massive loss of life and the indiscriminate

use of violence against the civilian population. That makes the Geneva

conference harder to bring about and to make a success. It makes it less

likely that the regime will make concessions in negotiations. It

makes it harder to get the opposition to come to negotiations.

The way things are changing on the ground in Syria is not helping.

you think those discussions in Geneva will happen at all? We are

working on that. They are not coming together in the next couple of

weeks. I find that worrying and depressing. I read you had some

rather glamorous company on your doorstep the other week, is it true

that Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt turned up at your doorstep? They

did. I worked closely with Angelina and preventing sexual violence and

conflict. We are making good progress. There is a historic

declaration that will be taken to the GN is -- will that will be

taking to the UN security council next week. She is a great heart of

this campaign. I can bring all the work of the UK and the role of the

British Foreign Secretary to it, but I cannot bring the same degree of

global attention to the issue. thought you were going to say

glamour! Well, I cannot bring that either. It makes a good combination.

The G8 nations have pledged to hold sexual violence and war, but the

issue is how you translate that on the ground, as always? Yes. I am

trying to get as many countries as possible to support an international

protocol in the investigation and prosecution of these crimes. I have

set up a team of experts that can be deployed into countries and gather

evidence and make sure Ross edition stick face. -- and make sure that

prosecutions take those. We do have rules about war that we do not use.

We do not use chemical weapons. Civilised nations do not do so. We

have the Geneva Convention. We do not abuse and torture prisoners.

There are certain conventions in war and one should be that the

systematic use of rape to degrade and humiliate populations and to

make peace building after harder, this should be something the entire

civilised world rejects and does something about when it happens and

that is what Angelina Jolie and I are working hard on. I must ask you

about the story in the mail on Sunday, the Tory MP asking for a

vote of no-confidence in the Prime Minister. What do you make of that?

Not very much. This government is achieving a great deal that would be

ruined, in my view, by a Labour government. We are trying to rescue

this country from the brink of bankruptcy. We are able to do that

because we have got a great Prime Minister. I work with him every day

and he is someone who does a fantastic job for this country.

There is an opinion poll today that says for the first time he is less

popular than the party. I do not think we should be influenced too

much by opinion polls that go up and down every day. There is no

politician who has achieved anything and they would never have managed it

if they went into despair every time there was an adverse opinion poll.

Are we doing the right things and creating jobs in this country, are

we allowing the foundations for economic recovery and bringing down

the deficit. Yes, we are. The best thing we can do in this country is

to make sure that we really finish and do those things and not be

bothered about opinion polls. about lobbying, the story in the

Sunday Times today, those stories do not help you? They do not, but I do

not want to comment because I see that the MP concerned disputes that.

We will have to find out the truth, but what we have seen over the last

week is very bad for Parliament and the reputation of politics. Where

people have done wrong, it has to be dealt with lovely and decisively.

Thank you for joining me. Now over to Sian for the news headlines. The

Foreign Secretary has confirmed he will make a stick into Parliament

about claims that the intelligence agency GCHQ spied on people's

Internet use. It is accused of accessing data through a US spy

programme called Prism. Apple, Facebook, Microsoft and Google have

all denied giving government agents access to their servers. Speaking on

this programme, William Hague said it was fanciful to think that GCHQ

was trying to circumvent these strict legal framework in the UK

governing intelligence gathering. Mr Hague said that secrecy was

essential but law-abiding citizens had nothing to worry about.

Nelson Mandela has spent a second night in hospital. The former South

African President, who is 94 years old, is being treated for the

recurrence of a lung infection. A presidential spokesman said Mr

Mandela is now able to breath unaided, which is a positive sign.

He remains in a serious but stable condition.

That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is just after

midday. Back to Sophie in a moment, but first, a look at what's coming

up after this show. Join us at ten, live from Warrington

where we have activist and former officers lined up to discuss Syria.

Is the children's commissioners right to suggest that children

should learn about porn in school? And the rapper is here to praise the

Lord. That's all we've got time for today,

I'm afraid. Thanks to all my guests. Jeremy Vine will be here next Sunday

at nine on BBC One. He will be talking to the Deputy Prime