16/06/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Happy Father's Day. The dads who run Britain's government have made

much of the importance of time spent at home - pressing the case

for paternity leave and so on. But events are pressing in from outside,

as they so often do. Difficult to enjoy your domestic situation when

Presidents and Prime Ministers from the G8 are about to descend to talk

Syria and Google. With me today to review the Sunday papers, Gillian

Tett, from the Financial Times and the Daily Mirror's Kevin Maguire.

Prominent in those papers today, the theme of the weekend really.

The perils of western governments getting drawn into the fighting in

Syria, after President Obama said he wants to help the rebels.

President Putin will be in Downing Street for talks later today and it

will be high on the agenda for the G8 meeting starting tomorrow in

Northern Ireland. This morning, I will be previewing that summit

would Nick Clegg. We will discuss Syria and also the chances of an

international deal and clampdown on tax avoidance. Why do some Tory

coalition colleagues seem to be getting so frustrated with him? Ben

Chuka Umunna, how would his party tackle the likes of Google and

their tax affairs. From child star to a challenging new stage role. I

have been speaking to Daniel Radcliffe about his emergence as a

serious actor, although he is still grateful to the fans of Harry

Potter. Hysteria is fine. That is always welcome. And we have some

live music too. A Zimbabwean-folk fusion, drawing attention to the

All that's coming up. But, first, the news. Good morning. Four people,

including a police officer, have been stabbed at a mosque in

Birmingham. All the victims are in a stable condition in hospital. A

32-year-old man has been arrested West Midlands Police arrived at the

mosque at 11pm. They found a scene of mayhem - worshippers running for

cover. The three men suffering stab wounds. One eye witness described a

man with a machete entering the musket in Birmingham. As officers

attempted to arrest a suspect, a policeman was also stabbed. I am

really shocked to know this. This is shocking for me to know a police

have as there has been stabbed as well. Local people claimed the man

was of Somali appearance. The area around the mosque has been cordoned

off. The police officer and three other stab victims have all been

taken to hospital. The condition is described as stable. A local man

has been arrested on suspicion of Turkish riot police have used

rubber bullets and tear gas to clear a park in the centre of

Istanbul, which had been occupied for more than two weeks by anti-

government protesters. The police operation came hours after the

Turkish Prime Minister called for They stayed on the streets in

Istanbul, throwing anything they could find at police. The

protesters started fires and formed their own barricades, as the street

battles raged through the night. They were trying to get back into

Taksim Square. The police blocked their way. Earlier, what looked

like an Army of officers in riot gear used tear-gas to clear this

park, with the support of the Prime Minister. People had been camped

out here in the last two weeks, in response to a violent crackdown

against protesters. It ended with more clashes with the police. The

Prime Minister justify these measures when he addressed his

supporters before the park was cleared.

TRANSLATION: Police used water cannon and tear-gas. That is how it

is in the European Union. It is like this in Russia and China. Some

countries even used live bullets. In Istanbul, but protesters may

have been moved on but they have not gone quietly. Stopping the

crowds from regrouping is the focus of police. Thousands of Iranians

have been celebrating on the streets of Tehran, after the

reformist candidate, Hassan Rohani, won the presidential election. He

took just over 50% of the vote and described the result as a triumph

of wisdom over extremism. The Foreign Office has called on Mr

Rohani to develop a more constructive relationship with the

west after years of deadlock over Iran's nuclear programme. Ecuador's

Foreign Minister will meet the founder of Wikileaks, Julian

Assange, today at the country's embassy in London. Mr Assange has

been in the building for a year and has been told he will be arrested

and face extradition to Sweden if he leaves. Ricardo Patino, who will

hold talks with the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, tomorrow,

said he hoped his visit would help Andy Murray is through to this

afternoon's final at Queen's where he'll face defending champion Marin

Cilic. Murray's match against Jo Wilfried Tsonga was affected by

rain but Murray eventually beat him over three sets. You can see the

final live on BBC One from 12:20pm That's all from me, for now. I'll

be back with the headlines just before 10am. Hank you. Now, on the

The Sunday Times is talking about Syria and David Cameron facing

defeat about supplier rebels with arms. Iran is sending troops to the

aid of Assad. The Sunday Telegraph believes that wind farms are hugely

expensive - more so than we realise. In the Scotland on Sunday, G8

terror alert. Passenger jet escorted to Prestwick. In the

People, Nigella Lawson of Paris having her throat grabbed by her

husband in a restaurant. And with me to review the papers are Gillian

Tett and Kevin Maguire. Let's talk about what you have banned in the

papers. As you have heard, the Middle East is dominating the

headlines. In the Sunday Times, Cameron faces defeat over Syria. It

illustrates how many land mines await both the UK and US

governments right now. On the one hand, they know if they do not

intervene in Syria, the humanitarian situation will become

a lot worse. On the other hand, if they do intervene, it is very

uncertain whether the population will support them. Voters have

intervention fatigue. Interesting on Libya, in 2011, only one Tory MP

rebelled against him. Now it will be touch and go whether he could

get a majority in the House of Commons. The Labour is against and

the Lib Dems are less sure. On the question of Syria, in the

Independent on Sunday, it is pointed out that to tip the balance

of power with arms it would have to be all out war. That is the only

way that Assad would be deposed. Huge risks because you do not know

who gets the weapons. He estimates about 10% of the rebels, Freedom

fighters, but everyone to call them, are under control. -- whatever you

want to call them. Conservatives are concerned about

jihadists and all of that. I would think that would be a concern of

the Israelis as well. You have the election in Iran. One implication

for what is happening in Syria is the growing Sunni, Shia split in

the Middle East. The Shi'ite have been getting increasingly involved

in Syria. If you want some good news about the Middle East, we have

had this extraordinary result overnight from the election. Hassan

Rohani, who is regarded adds less extremist and more moderate than

many other candidates, has won a shock victory in Iran. It is hard

to say whether that will help to calm down the situation with

nuclear negotiations for the Middle East or broadly. Frankly, they are

not a lot of other reasons to be encouraged about the Middle East.

In the Observer, their man in Istanbul is saying that the Prime

Minister struggles to make sense of Turkish trauma. He has not quite

got what happened. What began as a protest at development of the park,

has tended people wanting freedoms, civil limites. -- turned to people.

While he understands this has been terrible for turkey, -- Turkey, he

still does not get where so many Turks are prepared to stand up and

face of water cannon, tear-gas and plastic bullets. This is important.

Turkey has been a moderate Islamic country which many people had

turned to as an example of how to collaborate with the Islamic world.

No one can work out how Islamic the Turkish situation is. It starts a

park and a shopping centre. exactly the stub it shows the power

of social media. -- exactly. We may have seen that in a good way in

Iran but in Turkey it is less positive. We have not even mention

tax avoidance yet. I have gone for a story in the Sunday Express. This

article points out the difference between tax evasion and tax

avoidance. There is a big challenge will governments in getting

companies to pay their fair share. What is interesting is that this is

in the Sunday Express at all. Until recently, the question of taxation

did not go mainstream Atul. This indicates the degree to which there

is pressure on the G8 as it needs to be seen to be doing something

about the tax problem. It is mainstream now. I'm not sure that

peace has room to mention Richard Desmond's own business in the

Channel Islands... It is mainstream. David Cameron is huffing and

puffing at the G8 about it. Will he achieve anything? In the Observer,

they suggest not. Countries in the developing world will not know who

is taking money out because they cannot put it into a tax haven. If

crown dependencies and British overseas territories, the Isle of

Man and British Cayman Islands, for example, have to give authorities

information, they will not know what is going on. It is a welcome

move in the right direction but we have any effect? Is this territory

for the G8? We have a great piece about the G8 same, a problem shared

is a problem shelved. On the issue of tax, you need international co-

ordination. The G8 is a useless body. We have gone from a world

where it seemed to rule the roost to the world would be thought the

G20 was going to be the new answer as China and things like that rise

in power. Now Gzero is the new theme of the day. No one is in

charge. Expecting the G8 to do very much his optimistic these days.

have Canada and Italy but not China and India. When China is on board,

it is too big a group. There is one more. This is a terrific piece of

reporting from the Sunday Times. It is an issue which has not had a lot

of attention but will be on the agenda of the G8. What will we do

about antibiotics? They are so widely used that we are seeing

strains of superbugs which are resistant. I read this with some

guilt. Last week I gave my daughter antibiotics for a chest infection.

As we keep kids all grown-ups more and more antibiotics, we are

potentially creating the next health crisis. All the factory-

farmed food we eat is all full of antibiotics. Hats off to the Sunday

Times for picking up on it. It is a great piece. I am sure that parents

will be very interested in theirs. I was in a hotel in Paris as I

heard someone saying, I had a pain in my ear so I thought I would

blasted with antibiotics. That is Party to say we can all unite around

the idea of a referendum after the next general election, should they

be in a position to influence whether there'll be that referendum.

But Kate Hoey says it is a cynical decision and that 25 Labour MPs will

defy the order to abstain and vote with the Conservatives. Labour has

got a problem on Europe, with the party split on whether or not it

supports a referendum. I think most Labour MPs are in favour of the

European Union. It is not like David Cameron's problem, he's got such a

large portion of his party now that would Plaid Cymru to pull out.

Labour isn't like that, but there is a tactical issue, do you back a

referendum or not? I think Ed Miliband should have promised a

referendum before David Cameron. He missed that boat. Perhaps he should

do it now and promise it in 2016. But the Shadow Foreign Secretary,

Douglas Alexander, is thinking if we win the election we don't want to be

lumber with the referendum. And we can't get away with doing billion,

their policy on child abuse images. Google and the other tech companies

are frantically trying to get good PR, so guess what? They are clamping

down on something we can all agree is a bad thing - namely, child

pornography. Yes it is a fabulously good thing to be doing. If you need

a reminder of why it is such a good thing to be doing, the there's a

desk piece by India Knight in the Sunday Times, about the ease with

which children get access to pornography. But this is also a

question of the tech giants, the Googles, the Yahoo!s and Facebook

Facebooks frantically trying to do what they can do get good PR after a

disastrous week for them. They are almost more powerful than Government

now. There is a story about the House of Commons and Hollywood which

makes us think we are becoming just a film set. There is in the Mail on

Sunday and a few of the papers if you have �10,000 a day you can hire

the House of Commons chamber for your film. They suggest you could

have Miliband of Brothers or Big Ben Hurr. The building needs �10 million

spent on it, because parents very old and it is full of asbestos O

whether it is a good place to film or not, I don't know. We've seen

things inside but they've been elsewhere, is that right? You can

film in Central Lobby. We see that in the news, but there is a mock

House of Commons chamber which a lot of TV companies use, and Manchester

Town Hall doubles with its gothic corridors for the House of Commons.

Westminster's gain could be Manchester's loss. Gillian, have you

got festivals? Last piece very much on everyone's mind - the weather.

This week the Isle of Wight managed to have a passable festival, so

congratulations to all of you watching from the Isle of Wight this

weekend. Unfortunately Glastonbury is preparing for yet more wellies

and rain and mud. One thing I would like to say, although we prove to

moan about the weather and the wellies at festivals, the fact that

Britain does have such a thriving festival scene is something to

celebrate, because it is a terrific form of communal activity and if

nothing else it gives us a sense of something to talk about. I've never

been attracted by the idea of spending �250 to sleep in a tent and

queue for a portable toilet in the rain. It is a very uniquely British

tradition. So is Morris dancing!It brings us together. I saw the rain

today and I thought Glastonbury. Shall we do royal happiness before

we let you go? Sunday Times, the Royals are going to cash in on that

baby. You will be able to pay �12. 95 for a Guardsman's baby gro in the

Palace shops. It seems the Middletons' parents, they run their

party business, will be offering balloons and so on O everyone els

will be cashing in. One retail analyst expects the market to be

worth about �100 million. If it is going to be raining this summer, at

least we have something to celebrate. I hope they pay tax on

it. Summer starts this week. You wouldn't really think so from the

weather. Any hope of things picking up? Let's find out from Ben Rich in

the weather studio. Thank you. Things not looking too bad for many

of us today, compared with yesterday when we were dodging pretty heavy

downpours, today the downpours should be easier to dodge. Still a

scattering of showers but good sunny spells in most places as well.

Particularly for central and northern areas. The one exception is

in the South West, where we have increasing cloud and rain moving

northwards. A This afternoon a scattering of

showers for Northern Ireland and Scotland. Some in the north of

Scotland could be heavy. Sunny spells in between. One or two

showers for northern England. Plenty of bright weather here. Rain

expected in the south-west of Wales. South-west England, wet weather at

times throughout the day. Wet for Cornwall, breezy and cool here. The

Midlands and East Anglia fairly bright.th south a lot of cloud and

potentially patchy rain. Don't be surprised if patchy rain turns up at

the Queen's Club this afternoon. There'll be a lot of dry weather for

the tennis. This evening and tonight the rain in the South West tries to

push north. It doesn't make much progress into Northern Ireland and

north-west England. Further east, drier conditions. Tomorrow, a decent

day for most. A scattering of showers in the north. But overall

the next couple of days aren't After three years in opposition,

Labour is beginning to give us more of a sense of how it would govern if

it wins the election in 2015. Last week we had Ed Balls promising iron

discipline on public spending, and Ed Miliband talking about a cap on

welfare, although the party's critics say its plans are still

short on detail. Well, I'm joined now by a key member of the Labour

economics team, the Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna. Welcome.

Good morning Jeremy. Let's start on tax. You've told Google that what

you are doing is wrong. Is that as far as you can go? There is a lot

more you can do. We have to be clear why it is important to clamp down on

tax avoidance and evasion. These companies rely on public services,

like everybody else. They rely on having a decent infrastructure in

place. We need to fund that. I also think that businesses are citizens

in some respects. We have a mutually dependent relationship. Businesses

rely on us to fried custom, and the skills through the workforce. We

rely on them to provide jobs and to play their part as well. If one side

of the can, if you like, doesn't play its part, the system falls

apart. So you believe Governments need to force them to pay the tax

you think is due, is that right? Yes. The G8 are on to this now,

so... I don't think there is any disagreement on the principle. For

once it is night to take some of which the politics out of it. The

question is, how do you do that? There are a number of things we need

to see the G8 address, which the Government haven't addressed. How

can we reach international agreement on tax where they transfer their

profits between companies globally. Transfer pricing it is called. We

need action on that and ensuring that we don't tend up with a race to

the bottom on corporation tax, for example, where we are being played

off by companies, different jurisdictions, to reduce the tax

take generally. We want a competitive environment but if we

don't have the revenue, how do we pay for all these things? How do you

stop a country popping up, as Ireland did to Aspect until the

1980s, come to us and pay 2% or 3%? It is by international agreement.

You need to ensure that part of the agreement. At the April 2009 G 20 we

got international agreement to make it clear if the tax haven

jurisdictions didn't comply with rules on sharing information, it

won't apply. In April 2009 it was made clear to the tax haifen as

there would be action if they didn't share information on tax evasion,

and they were brought to book. These are issues the G 20 has to address.

One of the important things with the G8 ahead of us, the Prime Minister

made an announcement yesterday in respect of what we are going to do

to set an example and lead in this. He said the Government was seeking

to establish a central registry of company ownership, so we know who

own our companies. That would be maintained by Companies House. One

of the big problems we have, Companies House, the best way to

describe is is where all our companies file information about

themselves, but the problem at the moment is that the filing Cabinet is

broken. Companies already have an obligation to disclose the number of

foreign subsidiaries they have abroad but Companies House isn't

properly enforcing the rules to make sure they disclose those companies.

Last year nine of which the biggest companies in the country failed to

disclose thousands of offshore and foreign subsidiaries and Companies

House didn't take any action about that until they were prompted to do

so. That's local isn't it? You've talked international. That's about

getting the HMRC to chase these people down. Actually it is

international in the sense that we are talking about foreign companies.

It is not just HMRC. It works alongside Companies House to tackle

these issues. Companies House helps ensure that the companies disclose

the information that enables HMRC to act. That's why today I've written

to the Government to find out exactly what they are going to do to

ensure that Companies House can do that job properly. In respect of the

existing rules and transparency measures there are, Companies House

isn't enforcing them properly. It is no good the Prime Minister making

announcements about a new registry, if you are not enforcing the current

regime, what hope for the future? Google paid 0. 1% tax in the last

five years. A lot of that was under your party's administration. That

money is gone, you are never going to get it back are you? We did a lot

of good things in clamping down on tax avoidance. The National Audit

Office brought out a report showing that the disclosure rules we

introduced led to �12 billion extra revenue coming into the Exchequer.

But of course we can all do more. Part of the challenge of this,

Jeremy, is it is a little like running up a down escalator, you are

always seeking to get ahead and that is difficult. We were promised that

Ed Miliband had a plan to rebuild capitalism. We are still waiting for

that one aren't we? Well, I don't agree with your interpretation of

still waiting for that. What have you announced that you are taking

the winter fuel announce from the richest pensioners, that's about it

it. You've got the short and the the long term. I don't think that we do

great service to the country if we reduce down economic debate purely

to what you tax and spend. The challenge for us out of the 2008-09

crash is how do we rebuild a different model of capitalism in our

country. You can't even answer the simple question, do you need to

borrow more for your growth plan. Yes we can. We've been quite clear

it would involve shrm borrowing of around 12 billion. The reason we are

advocating it is we would get more growth and more tax returns in the

future. So to be clear, you will be borrowing more than the Government

at the moment is borrowing when you get into power? Ed Miliband was

asked about this on the World at One a few weeks ago and it took ages to

get an answer out of him. I've gave you an answer. The IMF said we

should bring forward �10 billion worth of infrastructure investment.

If you spend on infrastructure it has a multiplier effect in terms of

the growth that you deliver in the future. The real debate will be at

the general election who is best placed to shape future growth and

who can build a different model? That means doing the things we've

been arguing for, for example establishing a British investment

bank alongside a network of regional banks to get money to our small

businesses, which are struggling at the moment. Reform our skills system

so we don't just focus on people going to university, but get people

with engineering and technical skills. There is a lot of good stuff

in British business. We saw the fantastic news on Friday of the

successful flight of the Airbus A 350, its engines built by

Rolls-Royce and the wings built in Wales. A we can do it. But we need

to work in partnership. I hate to interrupt you but there was a story

yesterday looking at which shadow cabinet members have most

assiduously courted the grass roots of Labour. I know it is the rubber

chicken circuit as we used to call ate. The answer is you and Ed ball

being. There is only one reason politicians go on the rubber chicken

circuit and it is because they want to become leader one at a. Jeremy, I

make no apologies for going around the country. Ed Balls and I have

become a double act. I was in Leeds with him last months. And Michael

Heseltine used to do it. disrespect to yourself but the

political debate is dominated by you and I here in London. We need to get

out and open the debate to people in the country. The reason I get out so

much is because I want to meet businesses the. I went to Derby to

see Rolls-Royce and others, but I do fund raise and so does Ed for our

candidates, particularly for the marginal seats we need to win. It is

no fun to be in the shadows. If we are to deliver for our business

community we need the get in power and win back the seats. Chuka

By his own admission, Daniel Radcliffe has sought to break free

from Harry Potter and establish himself as the kind of actor who

takes on diverse and challenging roles. Playing a deeply disturbed

young man in Equus several years ago, he proved that the child star

had evolved into a stage presence. He is back in London's West End in

an equally intense play, a black comedy that is very funny but very

dark. The Cripple of Inishmaan is a modern classic. And of all the

plays a megastar like Radcliffe could have chosen, this one is far

from an easy choice. They did not drown themselves. They only fell

overboard in rhapsodies. What were they doing in rough seas? -- rough

seas. They were trying to get away from you. How would you know when

you were just a baby at the time? Johnny told me. What does he know

was in their heads that night? Didn't they have a sackful of

stones tied between themselves? When I met Daniel Radcliffe

backstage, he began by telling me why the black humour in Martin

McDonagh's play appealed to him. is very funny. People have been

laughing constantly throughout. At the same time, it is very brutal.

The characters are very cruel to each other. That is part of what

makes it so funny. Some of the last we're getting our... You can hear

people laughing and drinking, but I should not be laughing at that.

essential character it is you. play Billy, who is to use the words

of the play, crippled. He is described as having one bad arm and

one bad leg. Billy is somebody who, partly because of his condition,

has bute himself to spend the rest of his life on this island. --

viewed himself. A film crew arrived on a neighbouring island and the

news of this gets to him and he thinks, that is my ticket out of

here. He thinks Hollywood is a world where it will be accepted. He

sees America as a land of equal opportunity. It has that place in

his mind. He views that absolutely as his ticket out of there. He

spends his time between hope and despair - they are the two pulse he

has been flung between all the time. The character challenges on a

number of fronts. You have to be severely disabled throughout the

play it and you have this accent to do. A couple of times, you are

falling over. It is not the easiest part. There are physical challenges

and stuff like that. Climbing the wall took a few goes. You fell

behind a boat. I thought you had hurt yourself for a second. Good! I

am as in control of falling as you can be. Those are the challenges

that are very important. Superficial things like the accent

have to be got right. I think it is a really fun accent. I have grown

to like it. It was an nightmare at first. It is not just an Irish

accent? No, it is a very specific West Coast accent. I had lessons

and listened to people online. It is now in a fairly good place.

you choosing roles as far as you can from Harry Potter? Yes, I

suppose so. Also, it is not just about choosing roles that were

different. After this, it will be about choosing roles different from

crippled Billy. It is not about repeating yourself. Having played

the same character for 10 years, the wealth of characters I am now

having the opportunity to plate or reading scripts about, it is really

exciting. I just want to grab as much of it as I can. You could

build in mansion in Cape Town and sit and watch the sea. It is a very

interesting thing - money. It makes you very comfortable and makes

certain things in life very easy any do not have to worry about them.

The idea of sitting around and doing nothing by a beach is insane

to me. People always talk about the money, never the fact that I have

been working every day since I was nine or 10. I do not know anything

but constant work. Also Emma Watson and Rupert grinned. You all seem to

have come out of it undamaged. You might want to disagree with me. If

we look back at Shirley Temple and Mickey Rooney, the lies they had

after that sudden flare of stardom. They never really recovered.

some people, that is their story. It is too simplistic to say being a

child actor condemns you to that. Who are your parents? How are they

treating you? Who is looking after your money? Do you have just where

the people around you? Are people going to give you an inflated idea

of yourself at a young age? I had a good group of people around me.

Last night when I was watching, you took your bow and there was

screaming in the upper circle. I felt sorry for you. You do not

really want that now, do you? fine. Hysteria is blind. It is

always welcome. -- fine. People might come to the show because they

want to see Harry Potter in something but they are watching the

play. They will forget about my past work. It is a great play. The

only time I have been truly embarrassed on stage - and now

somebody will probably come to do it - on the night that JK Rowling

sort Equus, someone threw a fake owl on stage. It had to be on the

one night that she came that somebody did that. It is great. I

do have this ban base from Harry Potter. So far at least they have

followed me to Equus and the woman in back and hopefully this. If you

credit people with intelligence and make challenging and interesting

work, they all want to be a part of it. If JK Rowling comes to the

Premier and says, I have got one Morse script, we'd do it? I find

that highly unlikely. -- would you do it? If it came from her, I would

have to consider it. I would definitely take a lot of talking

round. It will have been a long time of having worked to establish

myself outside of the franchise. I definitely need a lot of talking

round on that one. Thank you. Daniel Radcliffe, shaking off Harry

Potter pretty convincingly there. Now it is the UK's turn to host the

G8 - the annual gathering of the world's richest nations. Their

leaders will be descending on Northern Ireland tomorrow. Russia's

President Putin is coming in early for talks about Syria - the most

pressing international issue of the moment. But there is much else on

the summit agenda. I'm joined now by the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick

Clegg. Good morning. Let's start with Syria. Americans arming the

opposition and Vladimir Putin coming in to tell you he is going

to go one farming Assad. It is looking very dangerous. -- go on

arming Assad. We see this horror unfolding on our television screens.

93,000 people killed, 6 million driven from their homes. We want to

do things when things are going wrong around the world. We do not

want to get embroiled in a military conflict. That is not what people

want. We are trying to strike the right balance. A lot of the debate

has presented a false choice. We either stand on the sidelines and

helplessly watched the slaughter unfold, doing nothing, or we get

completely dragged into a military conflict, which we cannot sort out.

The Americans have struck a balance of some kind. You can strike a

balance. They are already providing none lethal persistence. We are

providing body armour, water purification units, communications

equipment. That is what we are already pursuing. Of course we need

to try and help the moderate opposition who have already

recognised as the legitimate opponents and the people who we

hope will be in a position to forge the future of Syria. We cannot do

that on our own. In the end, there is no unilateral British solution,

no military solution either. You need moderate forces on both sides

coming together. The Americans have looked at the facts on the ground

and I have come to a slightly different conclusion, which is that

they're going to send arms to the opposition. Are you thinking that

is what Britain will have to do as well? We do not need to fall to the

identical thing. You do not want to? -- off to the identical thing.

What they are trying to do is provide support for people we have

already recognised as the legitimate successors of the Assad

regime. This is lethal assistance, isn't it? We are providing none of

lethal assistance. We do not think Lisa assistance is the right thing

to do. What we are doing is providing significant amounts of

this persistence which is a great deal of help to them. That is what

we are pursuing at the moment. be absolutely clear, you do not

believe that Britain should do what America is doing? At the moment, we

are not providing arms. If we wanted to, we would do it.

Government does not work like that, does it? The Prime Minister and I

are trying to strike the right balance in playing a part with the

Allies in support of the opposition, who we think deserves support so

they can play a role in forging a new Syria but not in boiling the

country in a military conflict which is not acceptable to the

British people. -- embroiling the So, if there were a vote, you would

vote no? You decide if it is right or wrong and then you put it to a

debate in the House of Commons. In a sense it is an academic debate

because we have not taken that decision. It is a hypothetical

question. The vote will not take place. We're comparing notes with

the Americans and others and pursuing his strategy of providing

non lethal support. David Cameron has echoes of Libya. He is maybe

thinking going with the Americans is the right thing. You are

thinking about Iraq and wars that have been vindicated. You are not

going in the same direction. This is not like Iraq at will. It is

significantly different to Libya as well. It is a civil war being

prosecuted by a brutal dictator in the form of Assad. The idea we

could provide a unilateral British military solution to this is bands

of will. We need to work with other allies to try to shape events where

best we can. -- is fanciable. It is a very difficult balance to strike.

We do not want, of course we do not, want to ask the British people to

send troops, if you like, and become embroiled in a military

conflict which is not ours to sort. My last question is exactly on that

point. There are British Marines in Jordan and the papers are getting

excited. We are very open. We provide training, assistants and

communications equipment, which is very important in the military

operation of the opposition. We're not providing lethal equipment.

There is no prospect of us sending troops on to the ground in Syria.

Beth we ask you about tax avoidance and the G8. Google has paid minimal

tax in the last five years. Politicians huff and puff but

cannot really do anything about this, can they? The debate is

changing dramatically. Can you sort everything overnight? Of course not.

We are having to haul tax regimes which would probably last assigned

when the Liberals were last in government. Before the internet and

globalisation took root. They are having to call those tax regimes

into the 21st century. There will be a conference of -- there was a

conference yesterday with many prime ministers and presidents from

African countries. We need to make sure we get a proper exchange

between tax regimes. I was speaking to African leaders who are saying

they do not really know what taxes are owed by the companies

exploiting natural resources because they cannot compare notes

with any other tax jurisdiction. We can do a lot about that. We are

making good progress. We also need to make sure that companies declare

they are making profits in places they are not for making profits in

places they are. We're doing that guys make the rules and we'll abide

by the rules. I said yes, there are rules but there's also public

sentiment, which is important not least for the customers of Google,

who want to see people playing by the rules yes, but playing fairly

and providing the taxes that are due in those areas where they operate

and make significant profits. should point out the MPs who looked

at this think they are not even playing by the rules, as they think

profits being made clear are declared elsewhere. There is a

distinction between tax avoidance which is illegal. Is it in the

spirit of the law? That's why we've passed something call called the

general anti-abuse rule, which says we can't just abide by the crossed T

and the dotted I of the law, but abide by the spirit of Old Trafford.

This debate about evasion and aggressive tax avoidance, it is

behaviour that's not victimless. I speak to these leaders and tax that

is not paid in their jurisdictions means fewer girls going to school

and lives being blighted and lost. I think we are finally getting to

grips with in. I want to raise the communication data bill with you,

the aim is to snoop on terrorists. You saw it off. You are being

attacked by form former Home Secretaries, who say you made a very

bad call there. These are former Home Secretaries who brought us

delights like control orders, which are unworkable and had to be

replaced, or 90 days detention without charge. I think they know

from their own experience about the dangers of taking knee-jerk and

sometimes excessive decisions in the immediate aftermath of very

distressing events. We have to do this in a balanced a proportionate

way. There is more work we must do and we are doing as a Government.

For instance there is this issue of how you match individual IP

addresses to all these mobile appliances we've got at the moment.

We will do that work. Of course we need to work Val material with the

companies and -- voluntarily with the companies, so we have the data

to go off the people who want to do us harm, but it it has to be

balanced. And there's Edward snoweden, I assume he is a Lib Dem

folk hero. I wonder why you stopped him flying to Britain. Bmpcts I'm

not sure whether he is. What I think this quite rightly raises questions

about is how do we in the United Kingdom, our Intelligence Agency as,

how do we process information that's provided to us by the American

intelligence services and others. Why can't he fly here? What has he

done wrong? There are legal reasons why, as you know, the Americans feel

they want to take action against him. That's their problem.The

bigger issue of principle at stake, do we use information,

communications data and the content in a way that's legal and is

proportionate and is subject to proper checks and balance as. The

answer is unambiguously that we do. But should we go further, for

instance storing details of every website you've visited over the last

year, and everybody watching this programme. I think that is

disproportionate and unworkable, and that is why I was not prepared to go

that far. And the other question is the winter fuel allowance for

so-called rich pensioners. They are going to go on getting it under the

coalition. That includes people who are living in Spain. Yes. Look, my

views are well known on this. The I think the fact that we are asking

people on low income tax to pie through their taxes to pay the fuel

bills of people who don't need to heat their homes because they are

living in sunny parts of Europe, and maybe didn't even work here before

they retired, and work there. I think that lifts the lid on a wide

ear problem in our welfare system. Yes we need welfare reform. We've

already made, with my full support, significant changes to welfare, but

if you are going to make further welfare savings, which I'm prepared

to look at, you have to start at welfare to the wealthy, the benefits

paid to the rich and retired. what's going on in the Government?

You are Deputy Prime Minister Minister. We said in this Parliament

for instance we won not change the winter fuel payments and TV licences

had for... That was your promise. The Conservatives wanted that in the

coalition agreement. That isn't going to happen. What we are now

debating is what happens after May 2015, particularly that first

financial year, a few weeks of which is prior to May 15, and most of it

is after the election. If we are going to do further welfare reform,

which we are likely to do, who ever is in power, you need to start

having a debate about how we ask people at the very top the change

the benefits that they receive. In other words we need to have a debate

about welfare for the wealthy. That's being blocked because the

Conservatives don't want that debate. That's why we can't move

forward with the wider reforms are. Yes, reform welfare but it must be

done fairly. You won't as a Government hit people at the bottom

unless you see people being hit at the top as well, that right? I don't

think on welfare you can have a debate about the welfare that's

provided to people at the bottom if you are not at the same time

prepared to have a debate about the welfare that's provided to the

wealthy at the top. That isn't fair and that is why I will only proceed

with further welfare reform if it is done fairly. Is it all well in the

coalition family at the moment? Michael Gove was asked about

childcare policy and why you decided to be against it. He said there is a

campaign being led by Lord Oakeshott to try to destabilise Nick Clegg so

Lord Oakeshott needs to succeed... Is that the kind of petty nonsense

that is leading at the highest level? No, we are leading in a

sensible and grown-up way. Michael Gove is not happy that I felt it was

not justified to ask people who look after two-year-olded tolers, for one

adult to look after six rather than four. But you agreed with it?No, we

agreed we would ask people whether they thought this was a sensible

thing to do. The answer came back loud and clear from nursery

providers and parents that they didn't. I have a rather

old-fashioned view that you should create Government policy based on

the evidence. If you consult people about what they think, you should at

least do the decent thing of listening to what they think and

acting on what they think. It is a strong coalition actually. I think

it is led in a strong way, where we are doing, taking difficult

decisions to clear up the mess left by Labour. We will carry on knoll

May 2015, but it is a coalition. That means you will have differences

of opinion between the political parties. No-one should be surprised

that a coalition does what it says on the tin, to govern together in

the national interest but at the same time keep the identities of the

two parties separate as well. you very much indeed Deputy Prime

Minister Nick Clegg. Now over to Naga for the news

headlines. The Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has told this programme

it wouldn't be right at the moment to provide lethal military equipment

to the Syrian rebels. Mr Clegg said the British Government had taken no

such decision yet. Russia's President, Vladamir Putin,

will be in Downing Street later today for talks. Russia is opposed

to any foreign military intervention in Syria, but he's expected to agree

on the need for political reform in the country.

A 32-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder,

after four men, including a police officer, were stabbed at a mosque in

Birmingham. The incident took place in Ward End at around 11.00pm

yesterday. All four victims have been taken to hospital, where they

are described as stable. That's all from me for now. The next

news on BBC One is at midday. Back to Jeremy and guests in a moment,

but first a look at what's coming up after this show. Join us at 10 from

Warrington, when we'll be asking one big question: Are the young being

expected to pay too much for the baby-boomers? We've got students,

doctors, economists, care workers, campaigners ready to do battle

across the generations. See you at 10. 00am on BBC One.

You may not be aware but today marks the start of Refugee Week would. It

is a national event supported by the UN, the Red Cross and many other

organisations drawing attention to the plight of refugees around the

world. Including of course millions of Syrians, who fled their homeland

because of the civil war there. A number of artists and performers are

gathering to launch Refugee Week this afternoon and I'm joined by

three of them, the Zimbabwean musicians Kenny and Lucky Moyo and

folk singer is Sam Carter. Welcome all. Great to see you. We should

mention in this Nelson Mandela, who I know you have performed for,

lucky? Yes.Tell us about that we've performed for him twice. We

performed for him when he came to Zimbabwe, on I think his first state

visit after coming off prison, which was really nice and such a

privilege. I remember him coming out to thank us for singing to him,

which was interesting. What has been your involvement in Refugee Week? I

know it is personal for you isn't it? It is, because I've lived as a

refugee for five years in Zambia. That was during the struggle for

Zimbabwe. Maybe we would go for, say, one meal in two days. That

really strengthened me and made me the Lucky that I am today. Sam, is

this going to be a passion for you as well? A passion for me? Well, it

is something that I really enjoy taking part in. I heard Lucky's

music in and was pleased to be asked to be involved. It was great to hear

his story. That's almost it for today - thanks

to all my guests. Do join Sophie Raworth at the usual time next

Sunday. She'll be talking to the Shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, just

ahead of the all-important Government Spending Review. And the

actress Kim Cattrall, the siren Samantha from Sex And The City, will

be here too, talking about her latest stage role. But for now, we

leave you with Lucky Moyo, Kenny Moyo and Sam Carter, and their song,

# It's been three years now # That war drove me away

# I have not been home since that fateful day

# But I keep hope hoping in mind # One day I'll be back with my

family # Home, home, home

# A sense of community # My childhood dream dreams

There is a place called home # There is a thing called called