23/06/2013 The Andrew Marr Show


23/06/2013

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of the year on Friday. Wimbledon starts tomorrow. Festival-goers

:00:36.:00:40.

flocking to Glastonbury this week. It sounds like summer but as we all

:00:40.:00:45.

now know it's not. It's not great out there, is it? So for the next

:00:45.:00:50.

hour at least, do stay with us. We've got plenty for you. Barrister

:00:50.:01:00.

and Labour Peer Helena Kennedy and comedian Russell Brand. A big week

:01:00.:01:04.

ahead at Westminster. All eyes on the Chancellor in the Commons on

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Wednesday afternoon when he finally unveils his spending review for

:01:07.:01:10.

2015-16 after the next election. The Chancellor is claiming that the

:01:10.:01:13.

medicine is beginning to work. All the pain is starting to produce

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gain. "The British economy is leaving intensive care. And moving

:01:16.:01:19.

from rescue to recovery," he says. This morning we'll be asking George

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Osborne whether he's done the deal to claw back �11.5 billion from his

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Cabinet colleagues. And just how painful this will be for all of us?

:01:27.:01:30.

Meanwhile, Labour are also keen to talk tough. Yesterday the Labour

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leader said he would be "remorseless" in prioritising

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spending. They are both And this would include sticking to the Tory

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plan for the overall level of government spending. Going to be

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looking through the papers with us this morning. But Labour still refer

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to this pledge as their starting point, so how long will they match

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the Tories for? All this will be clarified by the Shadow Chancellor,

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right here, in a few minutes. Also this morning I've been talking to

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the actress Kim Cattrall and director Marianne Elliott about

:02:04.:02:11.

staging an American classic that explores stardom and aging. Plus

:02:11.:02:18.

some great music this morning from Sharleen Spitari and Texas. All that

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coming up but first the news from Briony McKenzie. Good morning. The

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United States is putting pressure on Hong Kong to extradite the former

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intelligence agent Edward Snowden. I see Alexandra Del Lago, artist and

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staff. It lodged the request for his return yesterday, with one official

:02:32.:02:34.

saying any delay could harm diplomatic relations. Mr Snowden is

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behind claims Britain's GCHQ has been gathering vast amounts of data

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on people's use of the internet and phone calls. He's been charged in

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the US with stealing government secrets. John Sudworth has this

:02:44.:02:54.
:02:54.:03:08.

report. Overnight, Edward Snowden's status has changed. Before his

:03:08.:03:14.

position was uncertain. Even his whereabouts unconfirmed. Now the USA

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:03:24.:03:28.

has made it clear it is seeking his extradition from Hong Kong and it

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:03:38.:03:47.

wants it done quickly. The story is once again, all over Hong Kong's

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newspapers this morning, up until now, the authorities have been

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saying very little. But that may have to change with one Washington

:04:00.:04:10.
:04:10.:04:15.

official quoted as saying any foot dragging would strain relations

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between America and this The Chancellor George Osborne will claim

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the British economy is leaving intensive care as he unveils a fresh

:04:22.:04:25.

round of spending cuts this week. Chinese territory. The spending

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review will be announced on Wednesday, setting out �11.5 billion

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worth of cuts to Government departments for 2015 to 2016.

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Writing in the Sun newspaper today, the Chancellor has also unveiled a

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new �10 million annual fund to help injured service personnel and their

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families. It will be paid for from the fines levied on banks, for

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attempting to manipulate the Libor interest rate. The warning came

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shortly after more revelations from Mr At least ten foreign tourists

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have been killed following a shooting in Pakistan. Snowdon were

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published exposing Local police say gunmen stormed a hotel and opened

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fire in the Diamer district of Gilgit-Baltistan. The extent of

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Britain's own high-tech spying capabilities. The government's

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eavesdropping centre GCHQ has been tapping the Internet and Initial

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reports suggest the victims were from Ukraine, Russia and China.

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Gathering enormous quantities of Officials in northern India have

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warned that up to a thousand people may have died in the landslides and

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flash floods triggered by early monsoon rains. Phone call Currently

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almost 600 people are confirmed dead in the Himalayan state of

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Uttarakhand, while about 40,000 are stranded in the mountains.

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Information for years. GCHQ said its operating within the law and the

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government says a warrant is needed to She said she could never have

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imagined winning, but last night Andrea Begley was crowned the winner

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of the BBC One talent show The Voice. The 27 year singer from

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Northern Ireland beat the bookies' favourite Leah McFall to claim the

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first prize of a record deal. Read the stored Communications of British

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citizens Andrea, who's partially sighted, was described as an

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inspiration by her mentor on the show, Danny O'Donoghue. . Meanwhile

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Edward Snowden is reported to be in a safe location in location in the

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Hong Kong where he That's all from me for now. Has I'll be back with

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the headlines just before ten o'clock. Just spent his Back to you,

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:06:11.:06:11.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 80 seconds

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Sophie. Thank you, Bryony. 30th stories in all the papers about

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cabinet reviews and spending cuts. I have picked up a story in the front

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of the Observer which is about a whole set of military leaders,

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former chiefs of staff, generals, who are saying, do not raid the aid

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budget to the developing world in order to fund the Ministry of

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Defence because it is short-sighted folly, because contracts come out of

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that impoverished and. It is interesting that he our military men

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of great experience saying this babble about don't cut the

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military, is something which has to be looked at cautiously and we

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should not be diminishing our aid. Defence is a department going down

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to the wire. There is a strong viewpoint about not sending more

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money to poor countries. Cutting aid to foreign countries may exacerbate

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military conflict so it is a short-sighted solution? In one.

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Don't do it! We have solved that. There are lots of stories. There is

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a big story here in the Daily Telegraph about how that buying

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:09:02.:09:02.

between ministries is taking place. Osborne, he is coming on.

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families' czar, Louise Casey, is wanting to maintain a large sum of

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money to work with problem families in our country. Part of the problem

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is all the ministries are saying they do not want the money to be

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spent in that way, they want it to be maintained in their different

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ministries. She is making the argument saying we have got to spend

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money on the poorest and most troubled families in Britain.

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is a good argument because otherwise there may be further rioting and

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then we will have to clear up the rioting. If you are not nice to two

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poor people they will riot. It is going to be incredibly tough. Some

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of these cuts, �11.5 billion of cuts and years more austerity to come.

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George Osborne says we are out of intensive care so it is all right

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then. It is also bringing up that there is a split in the Cabinet. On

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many arguments the Liberal Democrats take a different position from the

:10:03.:10:06.

Conservatives so it hones in on the differences. Some of the stories are

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about the way in which, there are divisions inside the Treasury. I

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have got a story about legal aid. They are trying to cut legal aid and

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prevent people having lawyers of their own choice. Part of that,

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Clegg is saying he does not want to see that. Again, battles between the

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Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives. It is a farcical

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coalition because it is full of disruption and disjointed. Most

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governments are about some kind of compromise. However, the divisions

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are becoming more clear. They will become clear up to the next election

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because the Liberal Democrats want to say we fought our corner.

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Russell, you have got a story about tax havens. I have and it is

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pertinent with the talks of �11.5 billion of cuts and Helena has

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talked about the military not wanting cuts. It turns out that our

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country, Britain, of which we are rightly proud, is a tax haven for

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dodgy shell companies. They are saying Britain is one of the easiest

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places in the world to set up companies which can be used for tax

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evasion and money-laundering, according to a study by Australian

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academics. I do not know that we can trust these Australian academics

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because they dressed up as people looking for tax havens so there was

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skulduggery at the offset. They do seem interesting that this country

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as a tax haven, plus 50% of Tory funding comes from bankers, somebody

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told me the other day, and of the 20 biggest donors to the Tory party, 14

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of them have strong associations to offshore accounts. In fact, I heard

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that David Cameron is known as offshore Dave in that community.

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whole business of tax evasion is one of the issues of our times. This

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spotlight is falling on it heavily. I just avoided that tax, I did not

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invade it. We will have to shine a spotlight on all of that. Can I just

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say quickly, we should not be worrying about making money of poor

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people, the already impoverished, there is this stuff. I imagine if

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Vodafone are getting a certain amount of money from British people,

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they should not be let off the hook. There is a story about naming and

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shaming everybody who is getting state benefits and to publish how

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much money they are getting from the state. If we are going to go after

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tax dodgers... A think tank is suggesting that should be done.

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have been on welfare. You already feel ashamed. You have to sign on.

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Don't name and shame them people, name and shame the tax haven people.

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Name and shame the people funding the Tory party who have offshore

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accounts. Didn't George Osborne's family have offshore accounts?

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can ask him later. It is a rhetorical question. There is a

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whole set of stories across the press about the NHS, about

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whistleblowers basically being threatened if they were going to

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make public things that were going wrong, and that terrible story about

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a father of a child who died, his account being that he was offered

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money to remain silent. This stories on the front of the Daily Telegraph

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and it is about basically the way in which people lose their jobs if they

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speak out about things in the NHS. The only worry I have is that is all

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across everywhere. There is no doubt there is too much secrecy around

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this but I cannot help worrying that it is about undermining the national

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health service to say it should be run in a different way and maybe

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private companies should be better. I am not sure that private companies

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are any more open and transparent. Whistleblower stories are like a

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prelude to saying, let's privatise the NHS further? It is one of the

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things we should worry about but I think we do want to listen to

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stories about bad things that is going on. Can you hold the paper so

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we can see the story about GCHQ? Whistleblower Edward Snowden has

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been reportedly charged with espionage. But what he has done is

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reveal that the Americans were spying on the Chinese. He is in Hong

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Kong. That is a brilliant move. It will be really hard to get over

:14:56.:15:01.

there and make him. The United States is accused of hacking China

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and is on the front page of the Observer. It is picked up in the

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other papers as well. The extent to which this is absolutely global, and

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you can be sure that the United States has been hacking into

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China's calls, China is doing the same to other folk as well. There is

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a general sense in the public that why not, if this is going to keep

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the world a secure place? What do you reckon? I don't like it. I do

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not like that Edward Snowden reveals information and the person who gets

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into trouble as the person who reveals the information. Does it

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bother you, the notion of being spied on? Of course it does.

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Initially they will say we are doing this to protect you from terrorism,

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we are the government. But any time they are annoyed about anything,

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they will be snooping around. Any kind of anti-authoritative stance

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will be met with further snooping. I do not trust the government. I do

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not want them looking at my e-mails. Some of them are very

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smutty. I am not sure we want to look at them! We are running out of

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time. Let's have a quick look at the story about protests. Ed Balls have

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come out. That means we are doing well. He is literally in the

:16:22.:16:31.

shadows. There is a story about Brazil. It spiralled from a row

:16:31.:16:38.

about public transport. I remember when I used to get on buses. It was

:16:38.:16:41.

annoying because sometimes they would not give you change. But the

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people of Brazil have risen up en masse and are confronting the

:16:45.:16:50.

authorities. They are browned off and they are kicking off and it is

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happening all over the world. true that Brazil was one of those

:16:55.:16:59.

countries which was seen as having survived the global crisis but they

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are now facing recession to some extent themselves. It means the

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middle classes as well as the poor are feeling the impact. People are

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recognising that class divisions are irrelevant. Everyone is becoming

:17:20.:17:27.

affected. That is the story in the observer. It is not just confined to

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Brazil, it is happening globally. our country it is happening. I need

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to ask you one more question, Brazil on your tour? I am here to promote

:17:38.:17:43.

it. Even I am a bit sneaky. You are not going to the Middle East any

:17:43.:17:48.

more, are you? I want to go but they cannot guarantee that they will not

:17:48.:17:54.

kill me. Death is inevitable. I would go but I'm going to loads of

:17:54.:18:00.

other places. Follow me on twitter. Promotion to the end! Thank you,

:18:00.:18:05.

both of you. It is great kind of you to come in. Thank you for having us.

:18:05.:18:10.

You are much better looking in real life! Here we go! Onto the weather.

:18:10.:18:15.

It is officially summer but we are waiting for the weather to catch up

:18:15.:18:25.
:18:25.:18:32.

gorgeous. There is a chilly wind and heavy showers. We have seen the sun

:18:32.:18:36.

in one or two places in southern England. There is some persistent

:18:36.:18:46.
:18:46.:18:48.

rain across northern Scotland which will make for a dismal day here. We

:18:48.:18:53.

have persistent rain across north-east Scotland. A big contrast

:18:54.:19:02.

here. North-east England and south-east Scotland are prone to

:19:02.:19:09.

some heavy thundery showers. Temperatures may scrape up to 18

:19:09.:19:14.

degrees across some south-eastern parts. Some showers for Wales but

:19:14.:19:23.

not as many for south-west England. We will see some sunshine and dry

:19:23.:19:28.

weather. That is the trend for the week ahead. Increasing amounts of

:19:28.:19:32.

sunshine. It will gradually turn warmer. Leave it or not, it looks

:19:32.:19:42.
:19:42.:20:12.

like turning better for the first Good morning. You will stick to

:20:12.:20:19.

these plans 100%. On current spending, excluding capital, that

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is what we will do. We will inherit a very difficult situation. The

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Chancellor's plans have not worked. Far from healing, the economy has

:20:30.:20:36.

been flatlining for three years. We will have to make very difficult

:20:36.:20:40.

decisions. There is no point in saying we want to spend more. We

:20:40.:20:45.

will have to find different ways to make different choices to deliver a

:20:45.:20:50.

strong economy and a fair society which Labour stands for in very

:20:50.:20:55.

difficult times. With that include borrowing more to spend more on

:20:55.:21:00.

capital spending? We have said, two years ahead, we do not know where

:21:00.:21:04.

we will be. I am expecting to have a big deficit and therefore we will

:21:04.:21:10.

be matching their plans. Which you borrow more? For this year and next

:21:10.:21:15.

year, the Chancellor should do a �10 million boost for houses and

:21:15.:21:18.

road building to get the economy growing. If you get more tax

:21:18.:21:23.

revenues coming in, you'll get the deficit down and ease the pressure

:21:23.:21:29.

on spending cuts. I cannot say to you where we will be in two years'

:21:29.:21:33.

time. If there is still a case for capital investment, we will make

:21:33.:21:40.

the case. On day-to-day spending, we will be very tough. You are

:21:40.:21:44.

leaving open the door. Even in the first year you are leaving the door

:21:44.:21:48.

open to possibly borrow more money in order to spend it on big

:21:48.:21:55.

projects to encourage growth. chance there will be borrowing �96

:21:55.:22:02.

billion. He has said he will borrow 18 but he is borrowing 96. Living

:22:02.:22:07.

standards are falling. I am asking what you are doing. You could

:22:07.:22:16.

borrow more money to spend on big projects use they will benefit the

:22:16.:22:20.

economy. -- you say. We will inherit a weak economy with high

:22:20.:22:25.

levels of borrowing. I want to get the deficit coming down. We are

:22:25.:22:30.

saying we will have to make changes within their plans. On capital

:22:30.:22:34.

spending, we are saying, this year and next year the Chancellor should

:22:34.:22:38.

be investigating getting the economy growing. I'm not going to

:22:38.:22:42.

save what the judgment will be. We will wait until nearer the time. Do

:22:43.:22:47.

I think there will be a case in two years' time to invest in roads and

:22:47.:22:52.

infrastructure and get the economy moving and the deficit down? Yes.

:22:52.:22:57.

That will mean you have to borrow more. The economics of this is

:22:57.:23:01.

important to explain. The Chancellor said three years ago, he,

:23:01.:23:07.

by cutting faster, would get the deficit down as he would get growth.

:23:07.:23:11.

We have been in intensive care for three years because the plan failed.

:23:11.:23:17.

He is borrowing billions more. I am saying, rather than focusing on

:23:17.:23:23.

cuts two years ahead, why doesn't he act now on growth? The

:23:23.:23:27.

International Monetary Fund said to borrow �10 billion now. I am trying

:23:27.:23:32.

to clarify. For people who want to vote Labour, they want to know what

:23:32.:23:39.

you're going to do. You have left the door open on borrowing for

:23:39.:23:46.

capital projects. Yes, or no, you could borrow? The reason is, if

:23:46.:23:51.

living standards are still falling and youth unemployment is still

:23:51.:23:55.

high, if there is a case on the infrastructure to get things moving

:23:55.:24:01.

with low interest rates, there is a case to do that. If George Osborne

:24:01.:24:04.

had done at last year and a year before, we would not have had such

:24:04.:24:11.

a flatlining economy. From 2016, we know what you'll do on the

:24:11.:24:18.

Chancellor's spending plans. Beyond that, the Chancellor has pencilled

:24:18.:24:24.

in for further cuts. Do you think you will do that or spend again?

:24:24.:24:28.

The position for the next Labour government will be very different

:24:28.:24:33.

from the past Labour government. We will want to make our society

:24:33.:24:36.

fairer and get living standards and rising. We will be spending less

:24:36.:24:42.

and not more. I cannot say to you were we will be on the economy. We

:24:42.:24:48.

were hearing in the paper review, look around the world - falling

:24:48.:24:54.

stock markets, Brazil, Turkey, the China slow down, I am fearful we

:24:54.:24:59.

will be in for a difficult few years. Do I think after 2015/16,

:24:59.:25:05.

the next Labour there will be making very difficult decisions?

:25:05.:25:12.

Yes. Will it be cutting the top rate of tax for millionaires? No.

:25:12.:25:18.

Will we be introducing a mansion tax to get living standards rising?

:25:18.:25:25.

I hope they can do that. You look back to 2010, bute gave a speech

:25:25.:25:31.

and you talked about the coalition spending plans. -- UK. He said they

:25:31.:25:35.

were unsafe for public services and deeply unfair. I knew accepting

:25:35.:25:42.

that what the Chancellor has done is right? -- are you accepting?

:25:42.:25:51.

have had a wasted and damaging two years. It is deeply unfair what he

:25:52.:25:56.

has done. Cutting taxes for the richest people but hitting the more

:25:56.:26:01.

vulnerable people in society with the bedroom tax. Living standards

:26:01.:26:07.

are down for families. The deficit rose and the national debt is

:26:07.:26:13.

rising. We will inherit a difficult inheritance. The plan has failed on

:26:13.:26:17.

growth and deficit. You are now going to accept the cuts and say

:26:17.:26:24.

you'll stick with them. There is no point in me denying the reality of

:26:24.:26:29.

the situation we will face in two years' time. We will come into

:26:29.:26:33.

government in 2015 if people give us their trust. They have been told

:26:33.:26:38.

this government would get rid of the deficit but it will be huge.

:26:38.:26:43.

The economy I fear will be weak and long-term unemployment high.

:26:43.:26:52.

Investment scissors not made and the global situation very bad. Can

:26:52.:27:00.

I say we will make things better? And cannot say that. I would have

:27:00.:27:05.

to clear up the economic mess. Everyone who wants to support

:27:05.:27:12.

Labour is crying out for new hope and new direction. Not everyone

:27:12.:27:17.

will agree with what I am saying. There are people in the Labour

:27:18.:27:21.

Party and Conservative Party. I am being very straight and honest with

:27:22.:27:27.

people. I am not going to make promises I cannot keep. We can do

:27:27.:27:30.

things in a different way on growth and fairness but we will have to

:27:30.:27:37.

make cuts. Not everyone will like that. It is the real world of these

:27:37.:27:41.

years of failure from David Cameron and George Osborne. A high deficit,

:27:41.:27:47.

not coming down. A national deficit rising year upon year. Public

:27:48.:27:51.

sector workers will have to accept pay freezes again. The capsule will

:27:51.:27:57.

have to bring in will be just as painful, weren't they? -- the cats.

:27:57.:28:02.

George Osborne will act now. Unless he can get people back into work,

:28:02.:28:08.

we say have a bank bonus tax to get people into jobs. We would have a

:28:08.:28:14.

very difficult inheritance and a very big deficit. We can do things

:28:14.:28:19.

differently. There will be an emphasis on education and the jobs

:28:19.:28:23.

guarantee for young people. Tackling tax avoidance. If I said

:28:23.:28:29.

there would not be cuts, I do not think people would believe me.

:28:29.:28:35.

about the older voters - people and pensioners? You have opened up that

:28:35.:28:40.

debate. Half of welfare goes on people over the age of 60. That is

:28:40.:28:47.

an important debate that has to be had at some point. What about

:28:47.:28:55.

pension spending? Is it included in your welfare cap? The Chancellor

:28:55.:29:00.

has not announced this. It needs to look across all social security and

:29:00.:29:07.

welfare spending. Over the next 30, 40 years, we have supported

:29:07.:29:12.

measures. People are living longer and we will have to work longer. We

:29:13.:29:17.

will have to work for the next few years. We will support the

:29:17.:29:23.

Government on the triple-lock. The Tory scares about pension spending

:29:24.:29:29.

are nonsense. I will give you one example we will do in government.

:29:29.:29:34.

We will say, the cannot justify paying back to the richest

:29:34.:29:39.

pensioners paying over �40,000 when the NHS is under such pressure and

:29:39.:29:47.

living standards are falling. They are cutting taxes for millionaires.

:29:47.:29:52.

What about pensions? Are you going to cap them? There has been a

:29:52.:29:56.

debate about how you make sure pensions spending over the next 40,

:29:56.:30:01.

50 years is affordable. That is why the pension age is rising above 65

:30:01.:30:06.

in the next 15 years which we have supported. There is a debate be had

:30:06.:30:11.

about whether or not we have long term affordability in pensions.

:30:11.:30:15.

There have been difficult reforms in public sector pensions which

:30:15.:30:19.

have been supported by the trade unions after negotiation. We are

:30:19.:30:27.

all facing up to difficult decisions. It sound like you are

:30:27.:30:32.

looking at capping pensions. It is not possible to have a debate about

:30:32.:30:37.

affordability and avoided almost half of spending that goes to

:30:37.:30:40.

people over 60. People of my generation or the younger

:30:40.:30:44.

generation are going to work longer than our parents and grandparents.

:30:44.:30:49.

That is all about making pension spending affordability. In the

:30:49.:30:53.

short-term, ignore the Tory scares. We will make sure the pension rises

:30:53.:30:56.

are properly protected and will make the difficult decision on the

:30:56.:31:06.
:31:06.:31:31.

winter and as for the richest about existing pensioners but the

:31:31.:31:35.

next generation of working people will end up working longer and that

:31:36.:31:38.

will be necessary for affordability and so we can be better off in

:31:38.:31:44.

retirement. A lot of the problems in the spending review is because so

:31:44.:31:50.

much of it is ring fenced. Will you continue ring fencing the NHS?

:31:50.:31:54.

will make decisions in our manifesto on those things. The last government

:31:54.:31:59.

said they would cut inheritance tax and they didn't. It loses trust in

:31:59.:32:02.

politics, people breaking promises, so I'm not going to make promises

:32:02.:32:09.

now. We will always support spending rising in the NHS and its likely all

:32:09.:32:15.

parties will prioritise it. VAT, temporary cut. Is that still going

:32:15.:32:22.

ahead? No, because George Osborne has got his head in the sand.

:32:22.:32:26.

not talk about George Osborne but would you do that? Today in

:32:26.:32:32.

government wish to mark after the election. I you still planning to

:32:32.:32:37.

bring in a temporary VAT cut? speech two weeks ago, I said today

:32:37.:32:41.

and for the last three years, to get the economy moving... Today is

:32:41.:32:44.

irrelevant because you're not Chancellor. I'm asking what you

:32:44.:32:50.

would do in 2015. It's not irrelevant because the argument is

:32:50.:32:53.

important. If George Osborne had done this two years ago, we would be

:32:53.:32:58.

in a better place. Over the next year, if recovery takes hold, as I

:32:58.:33:05.

hope it will, I said last week, two weeks ago, the balance of advantage

:33:05.:33:11.

will shift from a VAT cut, which is what we would've done to long-term

:33:11.:33:14.

capital investment, as the best way to keep the economy growing. Do I

:33:15.:33:19.

expect a VAT cut to be part of our manifesto in two years time? Of

:33:19.:33:23.

course not. To be honest, we advocated for a year and a half

:33:23.:33:28.

longer than I expected because George Osborne's failure has been so

:33:29.:33:34.

catastrophic. Will he admit to that today? I very much doubt it.

:33:34.:33:37.

Balls, we must leave it there. Thanks very much. When one of the

:33:37.:33:41.

most iconic TV stars in the world joins forces with one of theatre's

:33:41.:33:43.

finest directors to revive an edgy American play, the expectations are

:33:43.:33:47.

sky high. Kim Cattrall, who got all the best lines in the sizzling

:33:47.:33:50.

series Sex and the City, is back on stage in London. The Tennessee

:33:50.:33:52.

Williams classic, Sweet Bird of Youth, sees her teamed with

:33:52.:33:55.

director, Marianne Elliott, the woman behind mammoth hits such as

:33:55.:33:58.

War Horse. The play is set in the oppressive Deep South of 1950s

:33:58.:34:06.

America. Cattrall plays a fading film star, Alexandra Del Lago. She's

:34:06.:34:12.

on the run from a faltering career and also from the ageing process.

:34:12.:34:17.

Chance, you have gone past something you can't afford to go past. Time,

:34:17.:34:23.

use, you've passed it. Who the hell is talking? Look in the mirror.

:34:23.:34:30.

do you see? I see Alexandra Del Lago, artist and star. Now it's your

:34:30.:34:36.

turn. You look and what do you see? Well, I met both actress and

:34:36.:34:39.

director at the Old Vic last week Kim Cattrall began by discussing why

:34:39.:34:42.

the theme of women and ageing encouraged them both to collaborate

:34:42.:34:51.

on this production. We were brought together to do this project and I

:34:51.:34:55.

think we were both frightened of it and attracted to it because it was

:34:55.:35:00.

talking about issues that are near and dear to me and things I'm

:35:01.:35:08.

actually dealing with in real life. And to me. I've got ten years on

:35:08.:35:17.

you, baby. It's really, rarely talked about. Or portrayed, expect

:35:17.:35:25.

that except in a 1-dimensional way. I think what is going on, with

:35:25.:35:30.

ageing in the world now, it's very negative. This anti-ageing clinics,

:35:31.:35:35.

to eradicate, I suppose. She's in a very vulnerable place when we first

:35:35.:35:39.

meet her. She has emphysema and is travelling with someone she doesn't

:35:39.:35:43.

really know, who she's picked up, and he's taken her on this journey.

:35:44.:35:52.

She's a sex addict. She's addicted to alcohol. And drugs. She wakes up

:35:52.:35:56.

in a hotel room, doesn't know where she is, who he is or what is

:35:56.:36:02.

happening. She arrives with Chance Wayne, who is struggling with his

:36:02.:36:08.

own age even know his 29. Yes, it's nearly 30, and for him, that's a big

:36:08.:36:13.

deal, I suppose because he was once the star of the time. It was a lot

:36:13.:36:18.

of potential ahead of him. He had amazing good looks and was an actor

:36:18.:36:23.

and was getting parts in Hollywood and doing really well. But then it

:36:23.:36:27.

all started to dry up and he started to realise he was losing his looks,

:36:28.:36:32.

so his greatest commodity, I suppose, was slipping away from him.

:36:32.:36:37.

He wasn't achieving things he wanted to achieve. You play these terribly

:36:37.:36:41.

strong women but you strike me as somebody, the older you get, the

:36:41.:36:47.

more confident and more bold you get. This places and negatives,

:36:47.:36:52.

you're letting go of something and hopefully embracing something else.

:36:52.:36:58.

It is in that letting go and embracing that the conflict occurs.

:36:59.:37:02.

It had a girls name? It's the name of the daughter of the biggest

:37:02.:37:07.

political deal in this part of the country. Heavenly is a beautiful

:37:07.:37:12.

young girl in her 20s crossing paths with me, and every night I get to

:37:12.:37:16.

see that and even talking about it now it gives me chills because it's

:37:16.:37:19.

something that is not there any more. I can't reach for it but I

:37:20.:37:23.

long for it, I long for the energy of it, the adventure of it, the

:37:23.:37:30.

unknown of it. But that's passed for me as well as Alexandra Del Lago.

:37:30.:37:37.

hope that's what the play addresses because you get it in your business,

:37:38.:37:42.

as well. You have lost your validity as you get older as a woman. I think

:37:42.:37:45.

every woman feels like that, actually, because we are in a youth

:37:45.:37:50.

culture. It worships youth and the way we look and how virile you are,

:37:50.:37:56.

that's what the play absolutely addresses. Alexandra Del Lago is an

:37:56.:38:00.

absolutely extraordinary likeable woman. But she doesn't feel like she

:38:00.:38:06.

is. She lives in a world which celebrates youth and looks. In terms

:38:06.:38:11.

of your job now, director, you have done incredibly well in recent

:38:11.:38:17.

years, but you can still count on one hand female directors who are a

:38:17.:38:20.

success. You never thought when you started out, you would make little

:38:20.:38:24.

top director because you went to man. Absolutely, I just assumed you

:38:24.:38:28.

had to be male, yes. That wasn't that long ago, it's quite shocking,

:38:28.:38:34.

isn't it? Is it changing for women in roles because the old you get in

:38:34.:38:38.

Hollywood there's the whole thing about our youth are not going to get

:38:38.:38:43.

the parts? Is it just an industry for young people? Is it changing?

:38:43.:38:52.

No, the only way it is changing is that women who like myself

:38:52.:38:55.

fortunately can produce their own projects or instigate them to get

:38:55.:39:02.

them going, because when I turned 35 the amount of scripts I was sent was

:39:02.:39:12.
:39:12.:39:12.

cut in half automatically. Yeah, I was just so... Sex in the

:39:12.:39:17.

city, playing a character in her 40s and sexualised and empowered in

:39:17.:39:21.

those things was really a one-off situation. Very, very unusual, so I

:39:21.:39:27.

feel, still come at this age that I'm learning and that, I feel, is

:39:27.:39:32.

the anti-ageing potion, not a clinic somewhere, Botox, something like

:39:32.:39:40.

that. Not that there's anything If you want a hot sex life, you must

:39:40.:39:44.

turn up heat. You're famous role was a man stuff. How did it change the

:39:44.:39:51.

way we look at older woman? I hope drastically. In a positive way, I

:39:51.:39:56.

was frightened myself, you know, at 41, I turned the role down

:39:56.:39:59.

consecutively because I just didn't feel that I could pull it off. Why

:39:59.:40:09.
:40:09.:40:10.

not? I felt I was past it. I did. But that was 1997. That's how much

:40:10.:40:15.

things have changed, which I think is very exciting. I just sort of

:40:15.:40:24.

felt, can I be this sexual animal? How will that make me feel? So I was

:40:24.:40:28.

suffering, I think from ages on myself, and thinking, oh no, but

:40:29.:40:33.

now, of course, I don't feel that at all. Just getting warmed up! There

:40:33.:40:41.

you go. The British economy is out of intensive care. Those were the

:40:41.:40:43.

Chancellor's words last week. A sign, perhaps, that he expects

:40:43.:40:52.

growth to pick up soon. It is the lack of growth over the past three

:40:52.:40:55.

years that has killed his plan to eliminate the deficit during this

:40:55.:40:58.

Parliament. And that means several more years of austerity to come. On

:40:58.:41:01.

Wednesday, the Chancellor will set out the next round of cuts that each

:41:01.:41:04.

government department must make. George Osborne is with me now. Good

:41:04.:41:09.

morning. As that of intensive care, have we turned a corner? I think we

:41:09.:41:12.

are moving from rescue to recovery and you can see that because the

:41:12.:41:18.

economy is growing, the debt is coming down, a record number of

:41:18.:41:22.

people are in work. They're still going to be, of course, challenges

:41:22.:41:25.

because the current problems Britain built up over many years are

:41:25.:41:28.

considerable. You can see what's happening elsewhere in the world,

:41:28.:41:33.

but I think we are out of intensive care and the job now is to secure

:41:33.:41:36.

the recovery and I'm confident we can turn the country around. Green

:41:36.:41:43.

shoots out there? We have got to stick at the plan, the economic plan

:41:43.:41:47.

which is reducing the debts, making businesses more competitive, helping

:41:47.:41:52.

to create jobs, making sure Britain can win the global race. There's no

:41:53.:41:56.

chance you've said we are out of intensive care, there's no chance of

:41:56.:42:02.

relapse? There certainly is if we abandon economic plan. If Britain

:42:02.:42:06.

suddenly said, we don't have the confidence to deal with our debts,

:42:07.:42:10.

we're not prepared to confront our problems, then we would go back into

:42:10.:42:14.

intensive care and that's what this week is all about, making sure we

:42:14.:42:18.

can secure the recovery and we will go on taking the difficult

:42:18.:42:22.

decisions. Go on cutting back spending. Go on prioritising

:42:22.:42:25.

spending on the things which help the economy and cutting the spending

:42:25.:42:30.

that doesn't. That's what we have got to go on doing. You have set

:42:30.:42:32.

great store about a deficit reduction but at the moment, it's

:42:32.:42:40.

remaining flat. The deficit is down by a third. But the last two years,

:42:40.:42:44.

and possibly by the end of this year, it's basically stuck around

:42:44.:42:49.

120 billion. When I came into office we were borrowing 159 billion, so

:42:49.:42:53.

yes, we have made a substantial progress but the deficit is still

:42:53.:42:57.

too high. We have got to bring it down. It's higher than many other

:42:57.:43:00.

countries because we started from such a high place in the first

:43:00.:43:04.

place. Of course, we have got to go on keeping the pressure on,

:43:04.:43:10.

government spending, making sure the country earns its way in the world.

:43:10.:43:15.

It's incredibly challenging for you and you have 17 departments and how

:43:15.:43:19.

many of them have you settled lives? We have made a lot of progress. It

:43:19.:43:23.

hasn't finished as of Sunday morning. We are finalising the

:43:24.:43:26.

details but I can tell you today I have settled the defence Department

:43:26.:43:30.

which people thought was going to be one of the biggest and most

:43:30.:43:35.

difficult challenges so I have agreed with Philip Hammond a defence

:43:35.:43:39.

budget, which will involve tough choices, the civilian headcount will

:43:40.:43:45.

have to produce. We will have to renegotiate some of our big

:43:45.:43:49.

suppliers on contracts, but there will not be a reduction in military

:43:49.:43:53.

credibility, and we won't reduce the numbers of sailors, soldiers and

:43:53.:43:58.

airmen. In fact, we can spend more money on things like the new

:43:58.:44:04.

frontier in defence, cyber. Plenty people are worried you will break

:44:04.:44:08.

the military covenant. Can you guarantee you won't do that? I can

:44:08.:44:12.

absolute guarantee that and I can do more. We are dealing with people of

:44:12.:44:15.

comeback from wars in Afghanistan and Iraq with horrific injuries,

:44:15.:44:19.

they have recovered from his injuries, and I want to make sure as

:44:19.:44:24.

a society we don't forget about these people after the war is over.

:44:24.:44:28.

We are committing for the rest of these people's lives, to support the

:44:28.:44:33.

military covenant, to support them, to go on spending �10 million a year

:44:33.:44:37.

on these causes. We can do this, in part, because we are using the money

:44:37.:44:41.

we have taken off bankers involved in the libel scandal. People who

:44:41.:44:46.

demonstrated the worst of the scandals in the city are now

:44:47.:44:51.

supporting those who demonstrated the best of the values, the

:44:51.:44:59.

shoulders who gave so much to defend our country. What about business? We

:45:00.:45:03.

haven't sorted it out as of this morning but I'm confident we will do

:45:03.:45:08.

it. There's not a massive argument. Of course, we're arguing about the

:45:08.:45:12.

smaller details but not the big picture. And, actually: Vince Cable

:45:12.:45:16.

and I want to achieve the same things, which is backing the

:45:16.:45:22.

economy, and I want to see science supported. That's part of this

:45:22.:45:25.

budget. Britain leads the way in science and that all about Britain

:45:25.:45:30.

that was economic future. Why is it so close to the wire? It's three

:45:30.:45:33.

days away for them he must be digging his heels in because you

:45:33.:45:37.

have sort of a defence which we knew was going to be problematic. There

:45:37.:45:41.

is still three days away and it hasn't been sorted? I thought about

:45:41.:45:44.

defence last night so these things are finished with a few days to go

:45:44.:45:48.

to the spending round. Actually, in the past, these things often done

:45:48.:45:52.

the night before. I'm confident we have got the deal and everybody in

:45:52.:46:02.
:46:02.:46:07.

the Cabinet knows to go on delivering the economy plan, make

:46:07.:46:10.

those savings and so, I'm absolutely clear we can deliver this plan, we

:46:10.:46:13.

will have the �11.5 billion worth of savings and we will do it in a way

:46:13.:46:15.

which prioritises services people care about, the things which support

:46:15.:46:18.

our economy and the things which make sure we can live in a world and

:46:18.:46:28.
:46:28.:46:41.

There is a huge squeeze on the rest, as you well know. Those ring

:46:41.:46:47.

fences will not stay in place? are called ring fences in Whitehall

:46:47.:46:51.

but what they are really about is the public's priorities. I suspect

:46:51.:46:57.

we could talk to the audience watching the show now, they would

:46:57.:47:01.

want us to be supporting the NHS and schools. Many people in our country

:47:01.:47:07.

want us to honour our commitments to the world. Poorest is. We will at

:47:07.:47:16.

salute you do that. We call them ring fences but they are the

:47:16.:47:26.

public's priorities. I think they would want us to be spending money

:47:26.:47:32.

on the NHS and education. I am pretty clear they are the public's

:47:32.:47:36.

priorities, they are my priorities and if you look at things like the

:47:36.:47:40.

NHS, if you look at education and also the police, I remember sitting

:47:40.:47:49.

in this chair a couple of years ago, saying if you make any savings

:47:49.:47:55.

and cut at its, crime will go up. But crime has come down. There has

:47:55.:47:58.

been quite a lot of scaremongering about the choices we have had to

:47:58.:48:06.

make. If we look three years on, we will get quality public services.

:48:06.:48:12.

you continue those ring fences it becomes very unbalanced. The other

:48:12.:48:18.

issue I was talking to Ed Balls about was pensions, people over 60.

:48:18.:48:23.

How can you justify in these austere times still allowing wealthy

:48:23.:48:27.

pensioners the winter fuel allowance? First of all, Ed Balls,

:48:27.:48:30.

after five questions from you, finally admitted he would borrow

:48:30.:48:37.

more. We know that but I am asking you. After all the nonsense of

:48:37.:48:41.

labour learning the lessons of what went wrong on their watch, they

:48:41.:48:45.

would still borrow more. On pension benefits, including the winter fuel

:48:45.:48:54.

allowance, we made a very clear promise and we believe in keeping

:48:54.:48:59.

our promises to the British people. Second, when it comes to pension

:48:59.:49:03.

benefits, our society is getting older. We will be spending more on

:49:03.:49:07.

our older people. I want to make sure that is sustainable. What about

:49:07.:49:12.

the next Parliament? I am the Chancellor who increased the pension

:49:12.:49:17.

age. It was a very difficult thing to do and was not supported at the

:49:17.:49:23.

time. All of those pension benefits, not the basic state pension, we have

:49:23.:49:27.

got to look at how we can afford them. I think the simplest thing we

:49:27.:49:33.

can do is increase the pension age as we have done and set out those

:49:33.:49:38.

increases to 66 or 67. I do not want pensioners to be impoverished. I

:49:38.:49:42.

want them to have a standard of living that reflect the fact they

:49:42.:49:46.

have worked hard and saved hard all their life. I would focus on the

:49:46.:49:50.

fact that we are living longer than try to cut the benefits which go to

:49:50.:49:54.

pensioners. But you are still open to the fact that at the next

:49:54.:49:59.

election, if you're still empower, wealthy pensioners could lose some

:49:59.:50:03.

of those benefits. We all have to consider the promises we make for

:50:03.:50:06.

the next Parliament. Having looked at the way we have behaved in this

:50:06.:50:11.

Parliament, we have made sure this country can afford the budget. That

:50:11.:50:17.

is what you will get with us. You will get people who deliver credible

:50:17.:50:22.

economic plans to secure the recovery. Let's talk about RBS. They

:50:22.:50:27.

are quite likely now to be split up into a good bank and a bad bank?

:50:27.:50:32.

That is something we are looking at. There is a big debate about whether

:50:32.:50:36.

RBS is too slow in recovering, whether it is doing enough to

:50:36.:50:39.

support the British economy. It lends more to small businesses than

:50:39.:50:43.

any other bank so it is very important. We are saying maybe there

:50:43.:50:48.

is a case for taking away the bad loans of the past, so they can focus

:50:48.:50:52.

on lending in the future. We will have a new Chief Executive. We are

:50:53.:50:58.

absolutely clear that RBS will not be some global bank, and massive

:50:58.:51:03.

investment bank, it will be focused on Britain. This is why Stephen

:51:03.:51:08.

Hester had to go, isn't it? He has been working so hard to sell it off

:51:08.:51:13.

as one entire bank, he would never have countenanced that, he had to

:51:13.:51:18.

go, didn't he? Stephen Hester chose to go. People say you encouraged

:51:18.:51:25.

it. It had my consent and approval. I am representing the taxpayer, I am

:51:26.:51:30.

representing the people who worked hard and put �60 billion or more of

:51:30.:51:35.

their own money into the banks. I think the public want RBS to be a

:51:35.:51:38.

British bank supporting British business and British families.

:51:38.:51:42.

public want to know when they will get their money back. Do you think

:51:42.:51:47.

they will get their money back from RBS and Lloyds before the next

:51:47.:51:49.

election? I'm confident we will start getting money back from

:51:50.:51:54.

Lloyds, so we will start to sell Lloyd's in a way which will reduce

:51:54.:52:00.

our national debt. Lloyds is in a good shape. There is a lot of

:52:00.:52:04.

progress there. I and the first person who wants to make sure we are

:52:04.:52:07.

reducing our debts. We will have to leave it there. Thank you. Now the

:52:07.:52:11.

news headlines. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has

:52:11.:52:14.

told this programme that the British economy is out of intensive care,

:52:14.:52:19.

but he said economic recovery would only be secured by sticking to his

:52:19.:52:23.

plan to get rid of the deficit. George Osborne will announce on

:52:23.:52:26.

Wednesday the results of his spending review, J setting budgets

:52:26.:52:33.

for each department. George Osborne confirmed the Ministry of Defence

:52:33.:52:38.

has been the latest department to settle its budget. The shadow

:52:38.:52:44.

chancellor Ed Balls said Labour would stick to spending limits but

:52:44.:52:50.

there could be a case for Labour to borrow more money to fund

:52:50.:52:52.

infrastructure all projects such as building new roads.

:52:52.:52:56.

The former intelligence analyst Edward Snowden has left Hong Kong.

:52:56.:52:59.

American authorities had been seeking his extradition from the

:53:00.:53:04.

region on charges of espionage and theft. The Hong Kong government said

:53:04.:53:11.

he departed legally voluntarily boarding a plane to a third country.

:53:11.:53:16.

The South China Post reported he may be on his way to Moscow but his

:53:16.:53:22.

final destination may be Ecuador or Iceland. That is all from me. Back

:53:22.:53:26.

to Sophie and guests in a moment but first a look at what is coming up

:53:27.:53:31.

after this programme. We debate whether Ian Brady has the

:53:31.:53:39.

right to die. And Brighton seeks to prevent another betting shop from

:53:40.:53:45.

opening. The Chancellor is still with me. We

:53:45.:53:50.

have been joined by Ed Balls and Sharleen Spiteri, the lead singer

:53:50.:53:55.

with the band Texas and you are back with a new album, 25 years after

:53:55.:54:02.

your debut. It is extraordinary. cannot be 25 years. I keep saying

:54:02.:54:09.

that. It is 25 years since our first concert at Dundee University, in the

:54:09.:54:13.

bar, not even on the big stage. It was a while ago and here we are,

:54:13.:54:18.

still doing it. I feel very privileged and making music and

:54:18.:54:25.

people are interested. Chancellor, I am sorry to do this to you, singing

:54:26.:54:30.

is not your thing. Not really!You have been making the headlines with

:54:30.:54:36.

another Osborne. We cannot tempt you. He asked you to do a duet.

:54:36.:54:44.

on, George. I cannot sing and he has asked me for a game of golf and I

:54:44.:54:50.

cannot play golf. It is not going very well, this new friendship. That

:54:50.:54:54.

is the cool Osborne. It is not easy when someone gets your name wrong to

:54:54.:54:58.

correct them, particularly when it is the president of the United

:54:58.:55:02.

States. It is nice to be first nine terms with him even if he sometimes

:55:02.:55:12.
:55:12.:55:16.

get the name wrong! What about you, Sharleen, something? He has

:55:16.:55:23.

certainly enjoyed it, this week, hasn't he? He changed his Wikipedia

:55:23.:55:28.

page to say he was the chancellor of the exchequer. Sharleen, I will let

:55:28.:55:31.

you get ready because you are going to play us out. On a more serious

:55:31.:55:38.

note, I guess you did not think you would be sat next Ed Balls adopting

:55:38.:55:44.

your spending plans. I am not sure that he has stopped we have won this

:55:44.:55:47.

argument that Britain has two live within its means, the deficit has

:55:47.:55:52.

come down and labour is very confused about how it will present

:55:52.:55:57.

this argument but the bottom line is he says he wants to borrow more.

:55:57.:56:01.

Just say you want to borrow more. The problem is that George said in

:56:01.:56:04.

the autumn statement that the deficit would come down and it went

:56:04.:56:09.

up. He's not even getting the deficit down. I think he should quit

:56:09.:56:13.

this Chancellor game and come marathon running with me and you,

:56:13.:56:18.

Sophie! We will sign him up for next year. You cannot play golf and you

:56:18.:56:23.

cannot sing, can you run? I do do running in the park but I have not

:56:23.:56:29.

taken on a marathon yet. I will probably stick with sponsoring you.

:56:29.:56:34.

Letting you run the marathon is for me. You two can discuss that. I will

:56:34.:56:44.
:56:44.:56:51.

rock n roll. # Let's anew at sunset, life with a lot more soul. # Well, I

:56:51.:56:58.

know you spend a lot of time alone in your head.

:56:58.:57:03.

# Remember what you said. # I never thought you'd be so easily

:57:03.:57:06.

lead. # One million lights, they're

:57:06.:57:13.

burning our eyes til the morning. # Run for our lives as you watch all

:57:13.:57:19.

the cars on the freeway. # And you said I-I come from Detroit

:57:19.:57:29.
:57:29.:57:32.

City. # I, I'm hard to satisfy. # And I

:57:32.:57:38.

want someone like you, you look so pretty.

:57:38.:57:43.

# In Detroit City. # You said you got some on the city again, its

:57:43.:57:53.
:57:53.:57:58.

dreams. # play records in the heat while the

:57:58.:58:01.

siren screams. # I couldn't believe someone like me

:58:01.:58:08.

would leave you so weak. # We're dancing in the streets. # You know

:58:08.:58:12.

we don't need no sleep. # One million lights, they're

:58:12.:58:20.

burning our eyes til the morning. # Run for our lives as we watch all

:58:21.:58:24.

the cars on the freeway. # And you said I, I come from

:58:24.:58:34.
:58:34.:58:38.

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