22/09/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Here we are in Brighton. Labour traditional in this

at least, a seaside conference just like the old days. But it hasn't

been altogether easy for the party lately, with the slithery backbiting

and the old poison of the Blair-Brown era all over the front

pages. As you enter the town, there is a very prominent sign for what I

think is Britain's largest reptile rescue centre. You get it, I'm not

even going to bother to make the joke.

It's a big political morning, and I'm delighted that to review the

papers today we have two of the big political hitters. Matthew Parris,

Times Columnist and The Guardian's Polly Toynbee.

Imagine just for a moment that you are Ed Miliband. Every morning you

get up to the most terrible kicking from the media. You are told you are

useless, you're a fratricidal loser, the voters don't like you, your

party has no policies. And that's on a good day. Quite a tough gig. But

Labour does have some huge questions to answer. Not least about its

comparative blank sheet of paper on policies - a sheet this week they're

starting to fill. And on their relations with the trade unions.

Really, when it comes down to it, who's boss here? You'd expect us to

have Ed Miliband in the hot seat, and I'm delighted to say we do.

We'll be talking about tax, welfare, the minimum wage, Europe and

shameful behaviour last time Labour was in power. Labour delegates

arriving here in Brighton will be greeted by a big red digital

billboard which proclaims: "Saving the NHS, Fighting Austerity,

Railways in Public Hands, Scrapping Trident." As the screen turns green,

the billboard says "Brought to you by the Green Party." The local MP

here in Brighton is the former leader of the Greens, Caroline

Lucas, who says that she, not Ed Miliband, is "the true Opposition in

Parliament". Woody Allen's career has been

enjoying a golden autumn. At the age of 77, he's been experiencing the

kind of commercial and critical success that he hasn't seen since

the Seventies. Cate Blanchett is his latest leading lady in the

compelling Blue Jasmine - a stunning performance in what may be Allen's

first political film. I'll be talking to her later about Woody,

Bob Dylan, and elves. All that and more coming up soon. First, the news

with Naga Munchetty. Thanks very much Andrew, good

morning. Reports from Kenya say army reinforcements are pouring into a

district of Nairobi where Islamist gunmen are holding hostages at a

shopping centre. The militants, from the Somali group Al-Shabab, attacked

the complex yesterday, killing at least 39 people and wounding more

than 150. Witnesses say the gunmen identified non-Muslims and shot them

on the spot. The Foreign Office says it believes a number of British

people have been caught up in the violence. Ben Geoghegan has this

report. Kenyan security forces are still locked in a stand-off with the

gunman. There are reports that the attackers are holding hostages. The

massacre at the shopping mall has left at least 39 dead and up to 300

injured. Amongst them Kenyans, Americans, Canadians and Britons,

although we do not know how many. There are undoubtedly British

nationals caught up in this and we There are undoubtedly British

should be ready for that and aware of that. Hundreds of people fled in

terror when the attack began admin day yesterday. Witnesses say men

dressed in black with masks on walked into the building and started

shooting. A militant Islamic group called al-Shabab has claimed

responsibility for the group, it says it is retribution for Kenya 's

role against its in Somalia. Staff at this hospital in Nairobi were

role against its in Somalia. Staff overwhelmed by casualty, treating

more than 100 people, some had a narrow escape. We tried escaping and

they threw the grenade. Particles entered into my hand and leg. Many

people were injured. This morning Kenyan troops and police are still

outside the shopping centre. There are reports that as many as ten

gunmen are pinned down inside. Labour has set out plans to make

large companies train British apprentices if they hire foreign

workers from outside the European Union. The party says the scheme

could create 125,000 training posts over five years. The policy

announcement comes at the start of the party's autumn conference in

Brighton. Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, has accused the Prime

Minister of going on a "victory lap" as the economy recovers, despite

falling living standards. Our political correspondent Ross Hawkins

has this report. Party leaders tend to get a warm

reception from their own people at their own conference. Ed Miliband

tried to confuse Labour members here. The party has admitted making

mistakes on immigration in government. Now they will argue that

this is an issue not just of border controls but of economics. So the

party says it will make companies train an apprentice for each skilled

worker they are from outside the European union. The CBI has already

warned that could lead to read take. And the maximum fine for flouting

the minimum wage is proposed to be increased. But despite the fun

fire, not everyone is convinced by his judgement. A survey suggests

that almost one third of Labour Party attendees think that he is

doing a good job leading the party. Germans have started voting in the

country's first general election since the European debt crisis began

four years ago. The chancellor Angela Merkel is fighting to win a

third term in office. She leads the Christian Democrats, who are on

course to remain the biggest party, but faces the prospect of having to

negotiate a coalition with new partners.

The number of NHS Trusts in England failing to meet targets for Accident

and Emergency waiting times has more than doubled in the last year,

that's according to the regulator Monitor. Between April and June, 31

Trusts failed to meet their target of seeing patients within four hours

of their arrival. Just 13 Trusts missed their waiting time

commitments over the same period last year. The Department of Health

says it's already announced funding to address the issue.

A court in the Chinese city of Jinan has found the former politician Bo

Xilai guilty of corruption, accepting bribes and abuse of power.

The Chinese politician was once tipped to become the country's

leader. He has been jailed for life in what's been the most high-profile

court case in China for decades. Bo was removed from office earlier this

year after his wife was convicted of arranging the murder of the British

businessman, Neil Heywood. That's all from me, for now. I'll be

back with the headlines just before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew.

Thank you. Now to the papers. They are divided between those who think

the Labour Party is interesting and those who think it is too boring to

be on the front pages. The Sunday those who think it is too boring to

Times has a story about Alistair Campbell. And Labour has a black

hole in its budget according to that newspaper, anyway. The Mail on

Sunday has more on the sex secrets of poison spin doctor. The

Observer, which has a leak of the main Labour Party policies, has

nothing on the conference on the front page at all which I think will

disappoint Ed Miliband. It has gone with that terrible attack in Nairobi

and climate change story. The Sunday Telegraph, its political editor has

just been hired by Ed Miliband as one of its key press people. The

headline, stop clobbering the rich. And then all the papers who do not

much care about the Labour Party conference. The Sunday Mirror has Ed

Miliband on the front page but it is mostly about Simon Cowell. And then

19 from Eastenders, secret battle with depression. And the Sunday

express have gone with Diana, again. And with me to review the papers are

Polly Toynbee and Matthew Parris. We should start with Labour Party

politics. And the Sunday Times. Labour plans have 27 ruling pounds

black hole, that in the Sunday Times. That is according to the

Treasury report. Sailing a little close to the wind. Conservative

ministers have asked the Treasury to cost Labour 's spending plans. And

half of that actually is the key. Labour said they would cut that. For

those who want to win, we want the Labour Party to win, the really bad

news is not all this fighting about the past but that Ed Miliband seems

to be arriving in a cloud of parents commitments. You would not expect

the Treasury to announce this black hole. It came out through a Freedom

of information request. Some journalist must been tipped off by

the Conservative to demand to see this Treasury research. And of

course when you look at the detail, they have pulled together any

criticism that Labour has ever made and said, that is a pledge. They

have said it is absolutely I'm spending commitments. That is a

little bit of a slur on the Treasury. They have been reasonably

careful. I do think the Treasury is not political. And then the whole

thing of creating a document and then you can tipped off the press to

ask for it. But the public will just see that black hole. The Sunday

Mirror is probably the only reliable one on that. It says Labour are

still technically ahead of the polls but they are sliding. And it is that

credibility question that is important. A good piece on the same

theme in the Observer, saying that he has to watch out for the attack

dogs that are really going to go for him. The Lynton Crosby spin Doctor

operation in the Conservative party knows that Labour values are miked.

The Tory party is still the Nasty Party. The one-week point is Ed

Miliband and they have been going for the personal. The Sunday Times

today, almost the whole paper is the Lynton Crosby attack mechanism.

Whether he would be Prime Minister, if he won the election, so we can be

forgiven for taking an interest! The Sunday Times has a bit of a hatchet

job. They start out by criticising the spoke suits. He is an MP. And

they say he has little experience of personal hardship. A devastating

series of opinion poll questions. Has Ed Miliband made it clear what

he stands for? And then talking about an aggressive election. Isabel

he stands for? And then talking Oakeshott who wrote the piece says

it is unclear specifically what he is referring to and he will not

elaborate. Most of the aggression seems to have been coming from

Labour! The Sunday Times today is exemplary of what an aggressive

collection would look like. Devoid of any information except to say

that he is a horrible. And the story on Alistair Campbell. He is now

campaigning on alcohol excess in this country. He is doing a lot of

good work these days but he could not resist moving into this. That

law breaking story seems to be extremely technical, something to do

with computers. I do not think that story is going to go anywhere. When

a pterodactyl fight, one starts and is now all the others are breaking

out. Tessa Charles against Gordon Brown. There is nothing worse that

anyone could think about Labour, the spin off operations, there is no

lower level to sink to. I do not think there is any more mileage in

this for the Tories. People already know how bad things were. We knew it

at the time and it was being reported at the time. The main

debate, was Damien met ride so drunk that he fell asleep before having

sex with a Labour minister, or not! The Mail on Sunday are rubbishing

the principal star of the Daily Mail! A strange battle going on

between these titles. The Daily Mail bid against the Mail on Sunday and

they both end up the price for this frightful Damian McBride stuff. And

they are competing against each other. Lets see if we can find

something else. The thing in every other paper, virtually, is climate

change. I was going to do something else, but we will go with climate

change. Climate change is the real world, all of this pales into

insignificance in comparison to the real story. Climate scientists

dismiss sceptics with stark warning. This is the

intergovernmental panel on climate change, all of the world's leading

scientists with a report next week saying it is much worse than we

think and the climate change deniers have been winning the argument, that

moving from 5% of people, only 5% of people not believing in climate

change, it is now 19% in this country, which is quite frightening.

The Nigel Lawson lobby, a lot of the lobbying is fed by the petrol

companies. There is a piece in the same paper by Will Hutton about

climate change. I must say as a columnist, we pile in. Will Hutton

is not a meteorologist and nor am I, but the whole thing becomes

totemic. The left are believers in climate change, the right or not.

They think that fracking is a good thing, the left don't, but we are

not signed his. What Will Hutton says is that once the great

majority, when 95% of the scientist in the world said, those of us who

are not scientists should believe it. Another big political story is

Angela Merkel, facing a huge election in the coming days, and she

matters and the enormous amount to us. Yes, big story. In the Sunday

Telegraph, very much following on from your excellent documentary. It

is rather a reminder of how little coverage we do of actual internal

European... Other countries. We know very little about Germany. It is an

election, we have a blast of information and then it will all go

away, apart from arguments between us and them. She is not doing as

well as everyone said she would. It is good news for Ed Miliband. When

the press say you are finished, it is all over. It usually isn't, the

press said she would storm ahead and she isn't. She is a remarkable

woman, hardly highly likely to win. And going back to the UKIP story.

Yes, apparently the UK Independence Party is not going to seek a pact

with the Conservative party after the next election. Dan Cheek, to

think that the Conservative party was going to be asking them for a

packed --a damp cheek. It is like Robert Mugabe promising to send

advisers to the candidates of the American US election. It is very

sweet of them! I wonder if the media have made too much of Slutgate.

Speaking I don't think so, if one of your MEPs speaks like that, it is

indicative of the mood in the party. And it does not help the idea of any

coalition. One story we should touch And it does not help the idea of any

is Kenny, a terrible, huge attack. Matthew Connolly you know this well

-- tenure. The Al Shabab group have killed lots of people. It Kenya,

lots of people killed had not been terrorists and it seems like the Al

Shabab people conducted a grisly quiz in which they asked people what

the name of Mohammed's mother was. And if they knew the name, they were

not killed, and if they didn't, they were. Awful thing. Grisly stuff.

Right, I think we have finally run out of time. There is one last

little thing. This is in the Sun, and it is Ed Miliband's two little

boys. The Sun says, go on, show that the Miliband brothers can play

nicely! We need more of that. Thank you, we will talk again right at the

end of the programme. Meanwhile, the weather. It is grey outside the

window but it is very mild as well. Some rain around elsewhere, I am

told. Let's get the picture from Helen Willetts.

Good morning. It is quite grey for a Helen Willetts.

lot of us this morning but at long last, the sunshine is starting to

break through, with cloud also and today, it will be warm. But as you

pointed out, this is the weather front in the North giving quite a

lot of rain in the Northern Isles, but you can see the sunshine coming

through in the East of England. We but you can see the sunshine coming

do still have some fairly thick pockets of fog around so it is a

slow improvement, and the south coast, the Irish Sea coast, that

will be prone to that of low cloud, so inland is the best of the

sunshine and with that sunshine, we had 23 yesterday, possibly the odd

24 today, but even on the coast with the grey weather, it will be 18 or

19. The rain continues in the far north and overnight, the mist and

the low cloud returns, no change in temperatures but the fog is

therefore the rush-hour tomorrow as well, so some tricky conditions for

a time. It will last until mid-morning and then it does

brighten up, like today, and it will be warm in the sunnier spots with

settled weather until Tuesday, but from the midweek on, these weather

systems start to encroach and it looks much more unsettled from

Wednesday on. Make the most of the settled weather.

Many thanks. The Prime Minister Wen said he wanted to lead the greenest

Government ever. You may have noticed you don't hear so much about

that now, ministers are more preoccupied with the economy. Growth

and recovery means building more houses, roads, bigger airports and,

of course, fracking. The local girl from Brighton Pavilion is the Green

MP Caroline Lucas, who joins with. You drive into Brighton and you see

the big advert saying we are the party against austerity and cuts,

and it is not the Labour Party, it is the Green Party. It is quite a

bold assertion, that you have one MP yourself and they have quite a lot.

Yes, a little bit cheeky but there is a serious point and that is that

on a whole range of issues, whether it is bringing the rail back into

public ownership, opposing austerity and not signing up to the spending

cuts for the next year and Labour have said they will stick to those

if they form the next Government, when it is to do with really...

Scrapping Trident, £100 billion, there is no opposition from Labour.

You are positioning ourselves as the most left wing, rather than the

Green Party, as it was in the old days, and it could be dangerous,

because the whole argument about climate change is being lost by your

because the whole argument about side of the argument at the moment.

because the whole argument about I think those are two different

things, with respect. The other parties are now coalesced into a

grey, murky centre that it is not difficult to be to the left of that

and have been to the left means promoting social justice and

and have been to the left means grid environmental protection, I am

happy. But the climate change agenda is a very real one and this

Conservative Government, that promised to be the greenest ever,

has been ripping up commitments to climate change. Part of the reason

is there hasn't been the predicted rise in global temperatures,

post-1998, that the IPCC originally suggested. If you read different

papers can you get different views, that the Arctic ice has grown more

than they predicted, and so on, so a lot of people think, do I need to

worry so much and do I need to change my behaviour in the way I

thought I needed to five years ago? 98% of scientists that study this

are absolutely agreed that climate change is caused by humans and it is

getting worse. This is going to be at the centre of the next

intergovernmental report that comes out next week. It is complicated and

we talk about the eyeshades getting broader, they may well be but they

are also getting thinner. The point is that those scientists who know

the stuff inside out say it is getting very much worse, and that

means we need to be taking action now and when you have a Chancellor

who says things like we will not save the planet by putting Britain

out of business, that is such a misunderstanding of what we face,

out of business, that is such a because what we should be doing is

putting a massive investment into green energy efficiency. That is not

diverging from the deficit, it is creating thousands of jobs up and

down the country. You have been apprehended by the forces of law and

order of fracking, which is not as damaging as other ways of generating

energy. Nobody would say it was a sensible response to climate change.

They don't say is is a good solution to climate change. In America, they

use fracking but all of their call is being exported so the net effect

is much work -- worse. If we go then the fracking rude, it undermines the

message to green investors in energy, and we will not get the

reduction is quick enough. In tough times, it is harder to get the Green

message through to people. Used Dell think you will have an MP by the

next election -- do you still think? I hope people will judge me on my

track record and I hope very much I will still be there to fight for the

key issues that I have been elected for, that we started this interview

on. In the last European elections, the Green Party gained over 1

million votes. That is a lot, and the polls are saying that in the

European elections next year, under a proportional system, we are on

12%, which the trouble the number of MPs. And you do not describe your

female members as sluts. Thank you very much. Few actors have

excelled in both serious and cinema blockbusters like Cate Blanchett.

She won an Academy award for playing Katharine Hepburn, nearly bagged

another plane Bob Dylan and yet also triumphed in the JRR Tolkien epics

and as a gnat nutter in Indiana Jones. Her latest performance in

Woody Allen's Blue Jasmine is a tour de force, playing a spoiled, super

Woody Allen's Blue Jasmine is a tour rich woman whose gilded life

implodes when her husband is exposed as abb ranking Forza -- as a banking

fraudster. When I met her, I discuss what it was like to work with Woody

Allen and how she may just win sympathetic. Apart from being a zero

and such a great film-maker, he is an incredible dramatist -- auteur.

He is in the vein of Bergman, the deep well of humanity that is masked

by absurd situations. And so whether a character says or does sympathetic

things is not of interest to me, and I don't think it is my job, to make

people like the character. I think that is quite nauseating. But they

have to engage, they have to be drawn in enough to keep with the

film. They have do understand them, and it is a struggle with jasmine,

she is an Upper Eastside princess and it is a struggle with jasmine,

who falls from grace, so when she loses her own money and her social

said, as you suggest, where is the sympathy? In the wake of the global

financial crisis and the horrendous scandals like the Madoff Affair,

there is an incredible weight of judgement that we bring when we see

a character. And it is a very exposing role, you start composed

and completely in control and you end up absolutely on the edge of

disillusion, ravaged, and I wondered, this is not a role for a

vain actress, if I can put it that way? No. By the end, no make up on a

tour. No, that is probably a career killing decision, but nevertheless,

the film is a finite thing! I always wanted to do something with

my life. Energy. Shop and go to lunch and matinees. Go to charities,

raise money for museums, schools, and with wealth, comes

responsibility. It wasn't just mindless consumerism, like my

so-called friends. But I won't say I dislike buying pretty clothes. Tip

big, boys, because you get good service. People count on tips.

Sunday, when you come into great wealth, you must remember to be

generous. Mun said you used to be OK but you got crazy. And you talk to

yourself. She is a woman on the verge. She is

a despair broil cocktail of rage, fear and you understand why but she

is on a cocktail of Xanax and alcohol. Vodka. Someone said it is a

is on a cocktail of Xanax and good game to try and match the

amount of vodka that you drink in the film. None of it as well.

Dimension Woody Allen, clearly a great film-maker but as a director,

how is he? -- you mention. Why is the experience is different from

other directors? When you look at the line of investigation, when you

add up his body of work, it is like each one is a chapter of the same

novel, and there is a kind of atmosphere that they all share. Say

you are joining the collected works, rather than single films? There is a

privilege but also a danger in that. When he is dealing with his

contemporaries, like Diane Keaton or Mia Farrow or the wonderful Dianne

Wiest Sydney Pollack, those people who grew up with, they had the same

energy. Perhaps not the deference that we have two Woody Allen there,

and I think the danger is that we that we have two Woody Allen there,

all revere him, he has now got a body of work, he is a serious

film-maker that we can treat with kid gloves and a sacredness. That is

dangerous. And it is not the way he works. I read he is not the way he

works. I read actors and actresses if he doesn't like a scene. He is a

stand-up comedian, that is his background and what I really

relished with him, the brutality of the stand-up. It works or it

doesn't, it is alive or it is dead. So you know when he doesn't like

something and I don't want to be stroked as an actor. I much prefer

somebody saying it is not working. It is a huge role in a very, very

good film and already, the Oscar conversations have started. Is that

they bore or does it excite you? It is never boring. It is a relieved to

hear, rather than them saying, what are you wearing? Attract a relief to

hear. But you make these things in the hope that people will see them.

I am a theatre actor, you know when the seeds are empty... And you have

often chosen some challenging roles. I'm not thinking of Lord of

the Rings as much. I didn't know how to be an A. You have to find the

challenge in everything. -- to Delph. The ears helped. What about

the Bob Dylan film, that fascinated me. The transgender Bob Dylan, that

was a big challenge. And I played Richard II. Maybe it is because I am

tall, I get to play men. Film is quite a literal medium, so when Todd

Haynes asked me to play a version of Bob Dylan, I thought, that is so

strange, what a great thing to be asked, very theatrical. And so I

left at that. In the same way as Jasmine, she has a theatrical sense

of self, she is a strange woman with Jasmine, she has a theatrical sense

a changed name and the way she speaks, it is all invented. And the

mask drops. In a way, it is informed by the work I have been doing in the

theatre. This is -- has this been the most challenging film role?

Probably. You find a challenge in everything that you do. Obviously it

is a Woody Allen film so somebody is going to go and see it. But it was a

very complex camera and so I relished trying to go into every

recess. Thank you very much. And Blue

Jasmine goes on general release this Friday. Cate Blanchett used to live

in this country, of course. And indeed very close to where we're

sitting in Brighton. But we're here, obviously, for the Labour conference

- a really crucial one as the party begins to set out its stall ahead of

the 2015 general election. The leader of the Labour party, Ed

Miliband, is with me. Welcome. Great to be here. This morning your party

will be debating the union link. By the time of the next election, will

that big voting power of the unions have gone? Well the party is about

the cost of living crisis and how we face that. To do that we also need

to change the kind of party that we are. We need to hear the individual

voices of working people. They are affiliated to the party but I do not

think that we properly hear their voices. The changes I am talking

about our big changes that would make that happen. To come back to

the question, will the voting power of the union bosses have gone by the

next election? We're looking at how we address the consequences of the

exchange that I am talking about. Tony Blair said he wishes he had

done that. And the focus is on a huge change in our party. We are

done that. And the focus is on a saying to people, we will ask you to

make an act of choice to be part of the party so that you can have a

voice. The question is, does a union leader say, I have got these number

of votes. Does that carry on? It is about how we deal with the standard

of living crisis. The changes to the party will make that happen. And

there are issues about how the conference works and that of course

will be looked at as part of the review. So at this stage we do not

know the answer to what I was asking. Three months ago you said it

was the end of the old politics. But it seems you're not clear as to how

that will happen. I am absolutely clear. It is going to be happen --

going to happen by linking to individual members of the trade

unions. For politics the question is, do we hear the voices of

ordinary people. I want to say to MPs that you should not be having

second jobs, be accountable to shareholders rather than to the

public. It is how we change the politics of Britain. And changing

our party is a big part of that. Clearly the information you had

about four Kirk was wrong. Do you own an apology about that? Nobody

can be proud about what happened in Falkirk. We have closed down the

scheme around which issues have been raised. Anybody looking at our

scheme around which issues have been response to Falkirk would say, this

is a party that has recognised some issues. It needs to change the way

it works, and that is what we are doing. Yesterday you announced a

policy on immigration which would allow big companies who need

specialised workers from abroad, from India often, to bring them in,

as long as they create an apprenticeship for each job they

bring in. Let me set out what we are going to do. In the first year in

office we will legislate for an Immigration Bill which has secure

control of our borders, which cracks down on exploitation of workers

coming here. And says to big companies that they can bring people

in from outside the European union, but they have to train the next

generation. It is about making our economy really work for working

people and training people. That is how to tackle standards of living

issues faced by so many families. Would your policy cut immigration? I

do want to get immigration down overall. Are you concerned about the

number of Romanians and Bulgarians who will soon be coming in? There

are always issues about that, but that is going to be happening. One

of the issues that we have as a country is that too often

governments in both parties have country is that too often

turned a blind eye to the fact that the minimum wage is not observed.

Recruitment agencies are only hiring from abroad. They have just two

prosecutions since 2010 for not paying the minimum wage. The maximum

fine is £5,000. We have that now as a priority. We will crack down on

those kind of practices by employers. Many good employers are

poor those as much as you and I. You said you're going to strengthen the

minimum wage. Are you also going to raise it? It starts with

enforcement. But we also have to look at this issue. In this country,

38 out of 39 months that David Cameron has been Prime Minister,

prices have risen faster than wages. The National minimum wage is a great

achievement of the last Labour government. I want to strengthen

that, but do it in the right way. And do it in a one nation way. We

are looking at two issues. One about the value of the minimum wage. And

that would go up under Labour? The value has been falling back over

time. And the second issue is whether the is a case in certain set

is such as finance, to have a higher minimum wage. Why do I say that? The

minimum wage must be set at a level where it is not going to cost jobs.

That is really important. We need to do that... Just to go back to my

question. Will the minimum wage go up under Labour? That is something

that we are going to look at. That is extraordinary that you cannot

say. I want to see the minimum wage go up over time. But I think it is

really important. I cannot pluck out of the air the figure by Richard

would go up, that would not be of the air the figure by Richard

responsible. We are going to make the economy work in a different way.

We are going to do that in a responsible way. We spoke about the

Sunday Times splashed, the black hole identified by the Treasury

report. One way to start to deal with that would be to look at

raising taxes. But the Labour Party says that people earning up to

£60,000 are not considered to be rich. Well let me be clear first,

that nonsense story, we said that Labour would be borrowing more for

day-to-day spending by 2016. The next Labour government will be

facing different circumstances from the last. Times are going to be

tough. I think Treasury ministers should be worrying about cost of

living prices and not making up things about the Labour Party. Are

you going to keep the cap on public sector wages going up? That is

something to be looked at. We are conducting a review of government

spending. And anything we come forward with has to be properly

costed. We made a promise on the bedroom tax. Absolutely clearly

tested. Closing the loopholes allowed by this government to create

an economy that really works for working people. That is the

difference that the Labour government would make. It is about

making different choices on behalf of the British people. That is what

is coming through at this conference. Different priorities,

different choices. A Prime Minister who does not think about those at

the top but how to help ordinary families. Just to address some

specifics about tax. That people earning £150,000 should make a

higher contribution. We will set out our tax plans at the election. On

the issue of a tax on homes above £2 million, we want to bring in a new

10p starting rate on income tax. We're looking at how that will be

done at the principle is clear. We want to have different choices. I'm

interested in income tax. The so-called mansion tax does not raise

a huge amount of money but income tax dolls. You could put in a new

rate of income tax for the very highly paid. Our opposition to the

millionaires tax cut brought in by this government is clear. But as any

responsible opposition, we will set out our tax plans at the election.

This is my fridge, everything must be costed and clearly funded. That

is what people expect from us. But the priorities of the country are so

different. This government allows wages and living standards to be

falling back and then congratulates itself on a great recovery. Are you

personally minded to have a higher rate of income tax or not? We will

set out our plans at the next election. We have spoken about the

bedroom tax. How we will strengthen the minimum wage. Childcare hours

extended. I think we are talking about the bread and butter issues

facing the British people. The big issue in politics today, for

generations in this country when the economy grew, the majority of people

got better off. That vital link between the growing wealth of the

country and family finances has been broken. The question is for the

British people, is there a party that is going to tackle that. But

how are you going to deal with this. That means minimum wage, a cap on

public sector spending, and tax. You're absolutely right. It is about

how we deal with it. It is about creating higher paid jobs in this

country, and that is why the apprenticeship scheme is so

important. I have given you that example on the bedroom tax. And also

cracking down on vested interests, the train companies, for example.

Another huge issue is Europe. There have been to arguments about the

referendum. Some in the Labour Party say you should declare for an in-out

referendum, and it creates huge problems for the Tories, you can say

you do not have the vote Tory for a referendum, and other people say it

is dangerous, because if you have a referendum, you may lose it. We have

a very clear view. We think it is wrong to commit to an in-out

referendum in four years' time. The reason I say that is the issue for

the British people is jobs and living standards, so that is the

issues we are taking. So you won't become pro-referendum before the

election? We have said that a position to this and we will set out

the position before the election. Another policy issue is education,

are you in favour of the expansion of free schools? No, we would not be

building more free schools. Would you close ones? No, I think if there

are good schools operating, that should be allowed to carry on, we

would make a judgement. But let me go on to the big issue about free

schools in this country, which I think is really important to say,

which is that is it driving up educational standards? What you have

got is unqualified teachers in the classroom, and I think that is a

problem. You have got free schools classroom, and I think that is a

being built in areas where there are too many... Where there are already

enough school places and you have a massive primary school. I think

Birmingham has a free school, an Islamic free school, where all of

the women involved Islamic not, have to wear the nijab, and the girls are

segregated. Is it right that public money goes to that? I don't know the

particular case, so I will not comment out of the blue. What about

the general issue of the nijab? I think is being tolerant about people

dressing the way they want to in terms of their religion or culture

is an important part of Britain. If there are issues in public services,

they should be looked at. I mentioned Damian McBride at the

start of the programme. Was that a horrible shock when you open the

papers or was there a sense of weary acknowledgement, remembering what

went on? I think it is a reminder that we must have no factions in the

Labour Party. And that is my absolute position. Do you look at

this and say, no more, never again? I said that when I became leader and

it is the way I run the Labour Party. You get different people's

advice as the leader, as you may have noticed, and whatever views

people have about that, I think people appreciate the way I have run

this party on the basis of a unified party, not a disunited party, and a

party that does not engage in all of those practices of the past. When

all of that disgraceful business went on, and presumably you think it

is disgraceful, did you know about it? I went to the levels of enquiry

and was asked about this and I said it was a matter of public record

that I was concerned about Damian McBride and I complain to Gordon

Brown. Did you know what he was doing when you complain? I knew that

they were inferences and briefings against colleagues and I don't think

they were inferences and briefings that is the way politics should be

practised. You know what it is like in politics, people tell you these

things are going and you have enough suspicion that they are. I made it

clear to God, I thought it was damaging to the -- I made it clear

to Gordon, I thought it was damaging to the party. This is the way I run

the party, learning the lessons of the past, whether it is the way we

do politics, spending, attitudes we take to foreign policy, learning the

lessons of Iraq. On all those issues, I think over the last three

years, we have listened, we have learned and now we ready to lead. Ed

Balls said it was a terrible period and we were all to much and we

became too aggressive. Do you feel the same way? I am not sure I have

ever been accused of being to match. That is a first, I will take that

away. -- macho. There are definitely lessons to be learned from the past.

You had terrible opinion polls ratings as a party and individual

yourself, there is another thing in the Sunday Times, I don't want to

rub it in too much, but are you a strong leader of the party? 62% say

week. As Miller band made it clear what he stands for? 67% say no. --

has Ed Miliband made it clear. Do you recognise you have a problem

breaking through? I didn't come into the job because it was going to be

an easy life, I did it because it the job because it was going to be

was the right thing to do. So what have people out there about you not

got yet? I will let other people judge that. The trouble is they

aren't judging it unfavourably. The judgement will be made on General

Election Day 2015, that is when the judgement will be made, but here is

the way I have run my leadership of judgement will be made, but here is

the party. I have looked at the issues the British people face. I

started three years ago at this conference, talking about the

squeeze on living standards. I have talked about how we need to change

the economy, and all a it adds up to the central point, which is who is

best placed to tackle the living standards crisis the country faces.

That is the crisis. Polls go up and down, and the cost of living goes up

and up living families, and that is my focus. If I was being cruel, I

would say your polls go down and down and then. The real question is,

what is going wrong? You laid out down and then. The real question is,

all the messages you have described you have sat back and been

thoughtful and yet somehow, it is not connecting with the public. Is

it simply a media conspiracy? What is it? I don't think it is a

conspiracy. It is about a party that lost office three years ago, we are

trying to do something unprecedented, which is to be a one

trying to do something term opposition. That is top, I

didn't take it on because I thought it would be an easy fight, I knew it

would be tough but I think we can win and I am up for the fight,

because the stakes are so high at this election, the stakes are so

hyper young people who want a job, the people living standards are

being squeezed -- high for young people. This isn't good another

Briton, this is something we can do better. -- this isn't good enough

for Britain. What can be done? We will spend the next 20 months up

till the next General Election talking about the issues that

Britain faces, showing we we are a credible opposition and we can

create an economy that works. And we will show how Labour has changed,

learned lessons from the past, like on immigration. The way I am talking

today, you would not have got that on immigration. The way I am talking

from previous leaders, it is a party that is moving on. Your policy today

would increase immigration slightly. The big question is whether you can

cut it? That is wrong. It is about The big question is whether you can

letting people who are in who are qualified and getting

apprenticeships. No, it is the existing arrangements the people who

are highly qualified. The only change we would make is that in

addition, those companies who bring people in outside from the European

Union, they also have to train a British person. That is the

difference we are making, it is what businesses say to me around the

country, that we cannot win if we businesses say to me around the

are on a race to the bottom in skills. Bringing in a skilled

workforce is no substitute for building a skilled workforce in

Britain. Going back to the central question, can you pay for it? Can

you say anything more specific about tax or how you are going to keep

spending down? You promised to raise living standards and a lot of the

people you promised it to work in the public sector, which will raise

bills in the public sector. I have been very specific about how the

Labour Government is facing tough times, we will not borrow more for

day-to-day spending in 2016, it is a commitment but a tough commitment

and we will make difficult choices. What you will see this week is

different choices in pursuit of a Government that will stand up for

different choices in pursuit of a the ordinary families in this

country and tackle the number one issue they face, the cost of living.

This has been an extraordinary interview, I have called you macho,

I haven't asked you about your brother but I did see you with your

family on the beach. That is not the sort of thing you wanted to do, is

it? Speaking I loved bringing my family here. It is great spending

time with you. -- I love bringing my family here, it is great spending

time with you but even better to spend time with you, and it is a

great support. We will talk more after the news. Thank you be joining

us. Now over to Naga for the news headlines.

Gunmen are still holding hostages at a siege in an upmarket Nairobi

shopping centre nearly 24 hours after the violent attack began. The

Red Cross says that 43 people have been killed and more than 200 have

been wounded after gunmen opened fire in the mall. The Foreign Office

has said it believes a number of British people have been caught up

in the violence. A Somali Islamist group, Al Shabab, is claiming

responsibility, saying that the attack is in retaliation for the

presence of Kenyan troops in Somalia. Ed Miliband has said that a

Labour Government would introduce an immigration bill in its first term,

allowing companies to bring in highly skilled workers from abroad,

providing they take on an equivalent number of British apprentices.

Speaking on the Andrew Marr Show, the Labour leader said he wanted to

see a rise in the level of the minimum wage.

That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.

Back to Andrew and guests in a moment. But first, a look at what's

coming up after this show. On Sunday Morning Live, do Muslim

face veils deepened divisions in society? Why football chanting at

Spurs has attracted the interest of the Prime Minister. And would you

like your doctor to be a robot? ? Join me at ten o'clock.

Ed Miliband is still here and we are joined by Polly Toynbee and Matthew

Parris, welcome to you all. One thing we didn't talk about is last

week, Nick Clegg made it clear that he could go into Government with

you. Could you go into Government with him if the vote went that way?

I want a majority Labour Government and that is what I am working for.

Getting into this poker game of what might happen after an election, I

don't think that is where people. I think the public want know from all

parties, what they are doing to set out their stall to change the

country. That is an insider thing, let's talk about... Do you think it

is beyond the pale? I think he is an accomplice to what has happened, on

taxation can help in its own range of things. -- health benefits and a

range of things. Today is the first element of what you will see over

the next 20 months. The press will get at you personally. How will you

withstand that? How are you going to take it and how can you reverse it?

I think I have seen a lot of that over the last three years! As I said

to Andrew Garner you don't go into the job thinking it will be an easy

life -- earlier, you don't go into the job thinking it will be an easy

job and I think the British people make their own judgements and

discount a lot of what they read in the newspapers. They make their own

judgements about who can best serve their interests. Matthew. I'm sure

you didn't have anything to do with the Damian McBride stuff, but can

you look into your heart during that period and say to yourself that you

were completely clean. Well, I think people who know me, Matthew, would

say I am somebody who has never engaged in fact shinning and

briefing, it wasn't my style of politics -- in faction. It is not

something I would engage in. I'm deeply committed to the Labour Party

and deeply committed to Britain and that is the way I have always

approached my politics. And there is no kind of tacit agreement that

approached my politics. And there is Damian McBride seemed to have with

Gordon Brown, it needs to be done, but don't tell me? Absolutely not

and we cannot have that. It diminishes politics in the eyes of

the public, it diminishes politicians in the eyes of the

public and it diminishes democracy and I have no tolerance for it.

Thank you to all of you, we have run out of time. Join us again next

Sunday at 9am, when I'll be interviewing the Prime Minister at

the Conservative Party Conference in Manchester. I'll also be talking to

the actor and musician Hugh Laurie. Until then, goodbye from Brighton,

where it is as soft, warm and grey as a walrus's bottom.