23/02/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

Hello. Some good news to start with. According to the 10,000 British

supporters of Norse mythology, the end of the world happened yesterday.

If you've had a chance to squint through the curtains this morning,

you'll see that it didn't. The Mayans were wrong, and so were the

Vikings. But we're still in apocalyptic mood. The revolution has

happened in one of Europe's biggest countries. The dangers ahead include

civil war in the Ukraine, and for the West a new confrontation with

Russia. Some quite extraordinary pictures on TV news bulletins, and

equally dramatic front pages this morning. Joining me to review the

papers are Sarah Baxter, pagan goddess of the Sunday Times

Magazine, and that well known taxi driver, really, and Justice

Minister, the Lib Dems' Simon Hughes. As statues of Lenin topple

across Ukraine, along with the Yanukovych presidency, is the

struggle between Putin and the West over, or just beginning? I'll be

discussing this exceptionally dangerous crisis with the Foreign

Secretary, William Hague. And he'll be talking too about the visit to

Britain of the German Chancellor this week. Is Angela Merkel

Britain's best hope for European reform? And from power struggles

abroad to power stations at home. Ed Miliband's big promise is to freeze

energy bills, but it's upset the power companies. Does Labour care?

Caroline Flint has Shadow Cabinet responsibility for energy policy.

She's here to discuss that, the recent floods and Labour's latest

ideas for reforming itself. And a play that's as relevant now as

it was in 1912. I know I have no small talk, but people don't mind.

Don't they? What about your large talk? Behind the scenes of Pygmalion

with Alistair McGowan and Rula Lenska later. Plus, we have cracking

live music from Nigel Kennedy. All that and more coming up soon,

but first the news with Katherine Downes.

Thanks, Andrew. Hello. Anti-government protestors in Kiev

have maintained their presence in the city centre overnight following

the announcement yesterday that parliament had removed President

Viktor Yanukovych from office. Mr Yanukovych has remained defiant and

called the moves against him a coup. Ukraine's former Prime Minister

Yulia Tymoshenko addressed thousands of demonstrators in Independence

Square after being freed from more than two years in prison. Simon

Clemison reports. Blink and you may miss huge

political upheaval here. Events move in hours, not days and weeks. Last

night, protesters were urged to stay in Kiev's Independence Square until

the job is done. The call came from former Prime

Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. Prisoner one day, speaking to a mass rally

the next. Not all welcomed her words, and some

made their feelings clear, saying she did not represent them.

Ukraine's Parliament may have voted to remove President Yanukovych and

hold elections in May, but he says he's the victim of a coup. And he's

still on the scene, appearing on television in the last 24 hours.

Yanukovych has support from Moscow and could appeal to a power base in

the east of the country. His next move will be crucial in determining

whether this is just another scene in a fast-moving drama.

Simon Clemison, BBC News. 19 Afghan soldiers have been killed

and seven are missing after the Taliban attacked an army base in

eastern Afghanistan in the early hours of this morning. The attack

happened in the country's eastern Kunar province. In an email to the

BBC, a Taliban spokesman claimed responsibility for the incident and

said it had taken the soldiers as prisoners.

Here, the British Chambers of Commerce has called on the

Chancellor to invest in youth training and employment to avoid

what it calls a lost generation. In its submission ahead of next month's

Budget, the group is pressing for a ?100 million fund to be established

to get young people into work or apprenticeships.

The future of the oil industry will be the focus of the debate about

Scottish independence tomorrow, as the UK and Scottish Cabinets will

hold separate meetings in the Aberdeen area. David Cameron will

explain why he thinks the industry would benefit from staying in the

UK, while First Minister Alex Salmond will promise that the energy

department of an independent Scotland would have part of its

headquarters in Aberdeen. That's all from me for now. I'll be

back with the headlines just before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew.

Many thanks for that. As we heard in the news, the situation in Ukraine

remains highly volatile, and I am now joined live from Kiev by Europe

editor Gavin Hewitt. Gavin, anti-government protesters in the

square, but no governments to protest against. Absolutely,

Andrew. I think the situation here is still quite fragile. Apart from

looking for the whereabouts of the President, what the focus is on here

is to try to form a functioning government. These will be a

technocrat government, and today they are going to go to the

parliament and begin discussing who will take on which role, perhaps

which ministry until connections take place. The fact is, these

streets, there is no police presence there. It is actually being run by

people from the self defence committees. There is one or two bits

of evidence that some police are working alongside those self defence

units, but the leaders of the opposition are saying to the

protesters, stay on the street, you are the only authority at the

moment. The other big concern remains of a country splitting, and

opposition leaders we have been talking to this morning still

believe this is a real concern, that the kind of Russian facing part of

the country might try and push away from what has been happening here.

We saw extraordinary footage last night of Tymoshenko in her

wheelchair addressing the crowds, but she is not an entirely popular

figure, is she? No, you are quite right, she is a controversial

figure, quite divisive. The truth last night, she received a huge

welcome because she had been released from detention, but she was

listened to quite politely. There was not a great deal of spontaneous

applause, there were one or two people who actually left while she

was speaking. There are also those here who believe that she bears some

responsibility for the crisis that Ukraine finds itself in. But she is

very ambitious, very well-known, and there could well be some tension

between her and the opposition leaders who have been out here on

the barricades for the past two months. So although there was a

welcome, I think a lot of people have reservations about what role

she is going to play going forward. Briefly, everybody also looking

east, wondering what Putin is going to do about this. Absolutely. We

haven't heard in the last few days, we do not know what is going to

happen to President Yanukovych. Is he somehow going to make his way to

Russia? There were reports yesterday that his plane was prevented from

leaving Donetsk. All of that remains uncertain. Of course, in his great

tug of war which is happening over Ukraine between the West and Russia,

this is the bigger picture, and I think a great cause of concern, and

I don't think President Putin of Russia as really yet declared his

hand as to what he wants to happen in this very precarious situation.

Gavin, thank you very much indeed, Gavin Hewitt. And now to the

papers, inevitably lots of that in the papers. The Sunday Telegraph has

Yulia Tymoshenko talking last night, as I was discussing. They

have a story about lottery places. Is. The Observer has the Revolution

in Ukraine, protesters seize control. -- lottery places for

schools. The Independent has Yulia Tymoshenko's words, slightly

difficult to read! The dictatorship has fallen on the Sunday Times, the

picture of an alleged sniper who was caught and forced to grovel in front

of his victims. Now, Sarah Baxter from the Sunday Times, Simon Hughes,

thank you for joining us. You really are a taxi driver, you do drive a

taxi. I do, yes! Pilau people in the back saying, I don't blame

immigrants and they should open prisons... One of the challenges is

to make sure I do not alienate all my mates, real black cab drivers,

picking people up, but people do try to get in, uninvited, and then I

have to deal with getting them out. You could give them good liberal

haranguing from the front. Ukraine, you have chosen a picture pull-out

from the Sunday Times. I chose it without realising I am sitting next

to its progenitor, because Sarah had a lot to do with this. This has been

a huge story visually as well as intellectually, as it work. To

declare my interest, I love Ukraine, I have been often, it is one of the

huge potential parts of Europe that has never really reached its

potential. It is a paradox, isn't it? Yalta is the place where the

post-war settlement was arranged, this is in away the last and most

recent big turn of events in that development of how you end the

division of Europe into the Communist East and the West. And

there is a lot yet to be said, but this is real people, it is real

people being killed, real people engage for a country that should be

the grain store of Europe. Very wealthy agriculture. And

industrially, beautiful culturally, we really need to make sure they

have our support. But recognising that just tracking them into the

West is not something that we can arrogantly assume. They have been

struggling for years to get their constitution soldered. You are going

to a Ukrainian service. I am going to a Roman Catholic cathedral for

their service as a gesture of solidarity, because they just need

our support as they work out their own political future. I was very

struck, watching the TV pictures and seeing images come out of Ukraine,

that what we were looking at was almost like the set of Les

Miserables coming to life, it looked like 1848 friends on the barricades.

I had expected Liberty from the painting to come jumping over. And I

just felt this was such a visual Revolution, and something that has

made us sit up and notice. Simon is so right that it is so rich in

history, this area, and such a fault line, a borderland. It is still

divided by east and west down the middle. That is the important thing,

it is not the end, it is the beginning of a whole new uncertain

phase for Ukraine, because they have their Russian speaking peoples who

want to break away, pro-European, Western rural poor... And an

autonomous region. You have chosen the front page of the Mail on Sunday

which has hidden a Ukrainian story. I just thought it was slightly odd,

to say no more. They are going with a Labour minister having a holiday,

who we have not heard of before, Barry Granger. A huge amount of

coverage of Ukraine, have we learnt anything new from the papers today?

I thought there was an interesting piece by the former British

ambassador in the Sunday Telegraph, and we have to talk to Putin, but it

is slightly catch up after the extraordinary scenes on television

last night. We have learnt it is not a simple east-West question, it is

not just between Yanukovych and Tymoshenko, and it is one of those

debates about what sort of constitution you have, because

yesterday they moved from a French presidential type constitution to

one where Parliament is more dominant. And those are real

issues. It is difficult for us to know what we want. Putin knows what

he wants, a client state in the Ukraine, but what do we want? I do

not think he loved the current... A lot of Scots say that England want a

client state in the north of the UK, and you have chosen a place from the

Sun. I did like this piece by Alistair Darling, saying that David

Bowie did more for the debate in a sentence than politicians in the

year. He did not even turn up to the awards, he got Kate Mosse to say

stay with us. I think there is more to be gained from telling Scots that

we love them rather than, you really need us. And you have got a Scotland

rugby story, hurray, we won! Yes, with the last kick of the game. The

link is, sport is a great surrogate for national is, but it is a healthy

circuit and a fantastic surrogates. Not a healthy so that if you support

Scotland. I understand these things! Yes, you won, you beat Italy, but

yesterday the England-Ireland game was fantastic. Wales beat France,

contrary to expectations. Four out of the six teams are equal on

points, you could not ask for more. And the Winter Olympics, the

football is great, the tennis, come on! National us can be subjugated to

much better and healthier sport. We are going to move to another huge

political story, Angola Merkel's arrival in the UK. Yes, David

Cameron desperately needs some allies in Europe and he is hoping

Angola Merkel will be one. So she gets to go to Buckingham Palace to

address both Houses of Parliament, red carpets everywhere. Followed by

a pub lunch, it is quite interesting how these things work out! We are

moving into a different stage in the relationship with the German leader,

who has been seen as frosty and remote. David Cameron has had for

some time. And she definitely has an interest in making an ally out of

David Cameron and giving some concessions that will allow David

Cameron to win this referendum, should ever take place, on Europe.

We have Nigel Farage, the UKIP leader, and Nick Clegg now agreeing

to talk in a debate on television, which is a great spectacle. The real

reason why Nick decided to throw down the gauntlet... I know why,

because we passionately believe we should be in Europe, it has its

problems and it is not perfect, but we need it for jobs and trade. The

way to engage people is to personalise it for many people

because my judgement is that a lot of people have a prejudice that

actually most people are open to an argument about it. I think it is

bold of Nick Clegg to take on Nigel Farage who is a very popular

performer. I agree, but of all the people equipped to know the workings

of the EU and its benefits, I think Nick Clegg is hugely well-qualified

and he can speak as a solid Brits who understands the benefits. It

will be a tough gig is a Nick Clegg. He knows that, but he has never been

afraid... He wouldn't be in government with the Tories if he was

afraid of tough gigs! There has also been things in the paper about the

Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party playing Footsie more. Last

election there was only one coalition that was numerically

possible, in the national interest we went into that, otherwise we

would have left the Tories to run the country on their own which in my

view would have been far worse. The next election is a whole new ball

game, we have a long way to go, and there isn't any conversation we are

having internally. Our job as the Liberal Democrats is to have the

maximum seats and votes. We believe we are the guaranteed to have a

secure economy but also a fairer Britain than with the Tories on

their own. In the papers there are these talks about the memorial

service for Sir David Frost. Yes, Pundit' Corner, what a great name.

He invited Hoover onto his show once, who had him thoroughly

investigated. He described him as a hippie, anyone less of a hippie

would be hard to imagine. He would love the opportunity just wonderful.

Thank you both very much indeed, and we now move to the weather forecast

of course. I was out in the country yesterday and saw two remarkable

things - a carpet of crocuses and sunlight. Are we at last on the edge

of spring or is there more Norse filth to come? Oh, come on, you all

know the answer to that. Over to Jay Wynne. It is a bit of both, I'm

afraid. It is a windy day, and the strongest wind will be in the

north-west of the UK, blowing a gale. The satellite picture shows

most of the UK swamped in cloud, the heaviest rain is in the north-west

and will continue over the next hour or so but eventually it will clear

away from Scotland leaving behind some blustery showers. In the

Midlands, dribs and drabs of rain really, the south-west corner should

dry up, and it will be very mild. We keep it mild this evening and

overnight and that band of rain does not move too far, too quickly, but

during the day on Monday it will move eastwards and fizzle out as it

does so. It will be quite bright for many and still quite mild. However,

out of the rest is more rain which will be accompanied by brisk wind.

Moving into Tuesday, it will be wet and windy, the persistent rain

should move away to the east, and it will be windy with some pretty heavy

showers. Yuck! Ed Miliband's plan to freeze

energy prices and reform the energy market, if he's elected, has not

gone down well with the power companies. The head honchos at

Centrica - owners of British Gas - have been complaining of political

interference, and called for a less confrontational approach. Labour's

Shadow Energy and Climate Change minister Caroline Flint is here.

Welcome. Were you disturbed by what Centrica has had to say because

their profits have gone down as well? Centrica have made healthy

profits but I have to say they are scaremongering on this. I don't

believe the price freeze will contribute to the lights going out,

in fact according to my discussions with other representatives of the

big six, they have not mentioned it. This is about giving something back

to the consumers. They have lost 20% of their share value since this

announcement. Share values go up and down but we have got to have the

right policy for the country. We have got to decide that and there is

no doubt the public are not happy with the big six. We want to open up

the market and make it more competitive and transparent. You

have a 20 month price freeze, what happens at the end of it? Whilst it

is happening, we will take through our reforms including separating the

generation and supply side of the big six because at the moment they

create generally -- electricity and sell it to themselves. We will

monitor wholesale prices and if they go down that must be passed onto

consumers. After the price freeze, people will be looking around for a

good deal so we want a modern dynamic and competitive market with

these companies hungry for custom. Would you cap rise increases after

that period? What we have said is that we will give powers to the

regulator to monitor wholesale costs and our electricity pool will make

that easier, and if wholesale costs go down and it is not reflected in

the bills, they can force the energy companies to pass that on. I want

the public to feel that even if bills to go up, it is a fair price

they are paying. For too long we have had overcharging and not a very

competitive market. What kind of dialogue is going on with the energy

companies at the moment? I have been talking for two years about some of

the changes, and the announcements are not new to the energy companies.

There is quite a lot of support for our proposal and the smaller

suppliers and independent generators, for the chance to get

into the electricity market and trade openly, that is something they

would welcome. With the global warming argument, many people would

say nuclear is the answer but the Hinkley point Power Station is one

of the most expensive in the world and a lot of people are saying it is

unaffordable and a ridiculous contract, will you renegotiate it if

you are elected? I support nuclear build and paying for a power station

will cost more than setting up a wind farm but not a penny will be

paid until they start creating electricity. When you look at the

unit cost of electricity, providing energy for 60 years which is low

carbon, it is cheaper than other renewable sources but it is a

contract being negotiated by this Government and I don't think it is

helpful for governments coming in to say we will renegotiate all

contracts, but down the road the Public Accounts Committee will look

at the details of this. I do believe nuclear is right, and going back to

our reforms will give governments in the future much clearer ideas about

what the reference price should be. If the Commons says this is a

terrible deal and the EU concludes it is illegal, you will revisit it?

We are supporting the contract because we believe in the long run

the costs will come down but it is important to recognise when you look

at the unit costs it works out cheaper than other forms of

renewable energy. Can I talk about the Labour Party's reforms because

it turns out that anybody who wants to be a supporter of the Labour

Party just needs to pay ?3 as opposed to ?40 and gets a vote and

other important things, is this going to involve huge numbers of

people coming in and infiltrating your party? I hope it brings large

numbers of Labour supporters into our party, and it allows people who

don't want to be a full member to take part in our policy discussions

and it is a fantastic opportunity, but we will have rules about when

people are signing up they are signing up to the values of the

Labour Party. If you are not signing up to that, there will be action

taken but the truth is that we want to build our party, we don't want to

be like the Tories whose membership has dipped below 100,000, relying on

rich donors. I'm really looking forward to reaching out to the

people. You are not worried about UKIP infiltrating the party? No, I'm

more worried about people who do support Labour and would like to get

involved. Do you believe we need a completely different level of

investment on flood defences around the coast? We have to look at how

adequate the flood defences are, but also climate change adaptation. They

are inadequate at the moment. Yes, and sadly in 2010 and number of

proposals for the defences were choked off by this Government. What

I think is right is that we need to have an independent review of flood

protection in this country. Not another independent review? We need

to have a cross-party consensus, and I hope that in light of this we can

get back to where we were in 2008 when only five MPs voted against the

Climate Change Act. We have a lot of backbenchers who don't believe in

climate change but also David Cameron is playing to UKIP so let's

get back to where we were because it puts us in a strong position for

battling climate change and also getting the jobs that arise from

doing things differently. When people complain about their prices

rising, you have no embarrassment about that, energy prices hard to

take the hit? We need to make sure in the future we have cheaper costs,

and the chair of the committee on climate change has made it very

clear that the cost of not moving to cleaner energy will far outweigh the

costs of paying in the future but the costs have to be fair and that

is why we have to fix the market. A dead simple question to finish with,

are you pledging more money for flood defences? We will look at its

as part of our 0-based review but I'm not going to come out on the

programme with how much I think that will be. It has got to be

prioritised and the -- the right amount of resources go there. The

Government have already said they are paying over ?1 billion more and

it is false economics to have a situation where we don't do the

right thing in front and pay more after. When he was a young

violinist, Nigel Kennedy learned from Eugene Menuhin. What is less

well-known is that you was mental in his teens by Stephane Grappelli. --

menu. Nigel will be performing for us

later, but in the meantime he is here life and unplugged. Great to be

with you. I mentioned your Yehudi Menuhin, but do you regard the jazz

and classical traditions as equal in value? Equal in value, but different

people, if you transfer the ideology to people, everyone is equal but

they have different things to do. Music is a wonderful journey if you

can take it all equally but discover things along the way. You had two

great mentors. We will just have a look at you with Yehudi Menuhin. Oh

dear! Poor old Yehudi having to listen to that! Very patient. Yeah.

Thank you, that is coming along nicely. It is coming along nicely!

And then you had Stephane Grappelli, and now you have got to the stage

where you are a grey whiskered veteran of the music world, where

you are also mentoring other people. There is a Palestinian violinist who

you think is the next big thing. He is an amazing violinist, an example

of how, when people are treated equally, there does not need to be

all those violent images about a part of the Middle East. I am

playing the same piece here today later with another phenomenal young

violinist from Wales, talent comes from all over the world. You are

carrying on the tradition of Yehudi Menuhin. I am so lucky to have had

such generous people helping me along the way. This is you playing

at the Albert all, tell us available bit about it. Well, you know, it was

wonderful for the Palestinian people to be represented in a cultural way

and not as a problem. I think everyone felt it was a wonderful

opportunity to be seen doing something beautiful and not being a

political problem. People gave so much to it, the musicians, it was a

very intense moment. We will do our best at the end of the show, lovely

to be here. All the plays written by George Bernard Shaw, his most

consistent crowd-pleaser is Pygmalion, a palpable hit since

1912. A new production begins a national tour this weekend, Alistair

McGowan plays Henry Higgins, and Rula Lenska is his level-headed

mother. I caught up with both actors during rehearsals, and here is a

sneak preview of how it is shaping up. Tell me about the girl. She is

coming to see you. I asked to. If you had no no, you would not have

asked. It is like this, she is a common flower girl. I picked her off

a cab stand. And invited her to my home? I told her to speak properly,

she is to keep to two subjects, weather and everybody's health, not

talk about things in general. That will be safe. Safe?! Things in

general, always to be avoided! When I talked to the actors, Alistair

McGowan told me why he believe Higgins' attitudes towards Aliza was

benevolent. He wants to help her, and I am sure that they are aware

that the language says everything about you and can limit your chance

of progress in life, and I think Higgins wants to try and help this

bill, that is what he says, but it becomes a bet with his friend

Pickering, so we cannot deny that aspect. He takes somebody from the

bottom of the social piled to the top, is there any connection with

reality television these days? Completely, it is a theme which is

very contemporary today. Our language can limit where we get to.

I think about one month ago there was something in the papers about

whether you should use the word innit in an interview, and people

were saying you should not, but our language is still very much part of

where we end up. You have one of the very few fully rounded characters in

this play, the Professor's mother. The only woman that he trusts and

listens to. You are the voice of sanity and reason. I would hope so,

a very well balanced person who has a greater depth of feeling than her

son. She is a very warm, caring matriarch. Is Mrs Higgins a proto-

suffragist? I think in some ways, which is completely truthful, and

although when she first meets Eliza, she can see that there has been an

enormous amount of work done, his speech is terribly well pronounced,

but there is no way she is going to be able to pass fulsomely naturally

from that area of life. You are a pretty pair of babies playing with

your doll! Playing? The hardest job I ever tackled, make no mistake

about that! You have no idea how frightfully interesting it is to

take a human being and change into a quite different human being by

creating a new speech for her, filling up the deepest gulf that

separates class from class and soul from Seoul. I come from a highly

aristocratic background, although I was born in this country, and I have

never in my life been cast as a commoner, for want of a better word.

When I asked producers and directors, white wine ever get cast

as the girl next door, -- why don't I ever get cast as the girl next

door, they say, you have a regal bearing. Amp thrilled to be sharing

the stage with him. -- I am. It was interesting, in rehearsals, the

director has been wonderful and said at one point, he had been watching

Question Time, and David Starkey had been on the programme, and David

said to me, that is the equivalent of a modern Henry Higgins, somebody

who will speak his mind and is not afraid to upset anybody. In fact, he

takes it as a challenge to upset as many people as he can. That was a

great revelation for me. Is there an element in which there are fewer

people who are interesting to impersonate these days? Politicians,

it is harder to do Cameron and Osborne than it might have been to

do Tony Benn and Tony Blair and so forth. No, I don't think so. Rory

Bremner did politics so well. Someone like Boris Johnson, there is

a huge character, there is a key sound which I love to get with him,

do, it goes on and on. Playing Higgins is a lovely fit. You were

talking about your aristocratic background, your father was Polish

Greek army and was very nearly killed when a plane went down at the

end of the war. That is right. He started his life in the diplomatic

service, and he left Poland before the war broke out, and he was an

aide to come. He would have been on that plane if it was not for the

fact that his daughter arrived completely suddenly and took my

father's place. He would have been killed. And I would never have

happened. And your mother was in a concentration camp, a Polish

countess. The you feel a connection to the huge numbers of polls now

living in this country? -- do you feel. My first visit I was so

surprised at how different Polish Poles to emigrate Poles. I could not

live there. It is still, in many ways, 50 years behind what we are

here, particularly if you need something done, or if you ask a

workman to come, he does not turn up. That is because they are all

here! There are not any left. Is there a big difference in taking a

play to provincial theatres in Britain, as compared to doing the

west end? Is there a different atmosphere? Do you approach it

differently? It is a completely different kettle of fish.

Personally, I love touring, and I have done an enormous amount of it.

If you have a good product and a good cast, and by good cast, I do

not just mean talented, but people who will get on and support each

other and like each other. If you are going to good venues and the

play is well received, it is a total joy. I wish our politicians could do

what we do and see areas of the country. When you live, like I do,

in Richmond, you do not have much idea what it is like, and when you

go to places like Leicestershire, you see what effect policies are

having on people and how they are living. I wish our politicians at

the time to go around the country. Well, let's sends them invitations.

They can come and see Pygmalion at the same time. Most of our

politicians, for instance on Big Brother, an extraordinary moment,

you and George Galloway, what was going on?! It was a completely

innocent improvisation! Would you like me to be the cat? I was

supposed to be a concerned cat owner who wanted to know why the pussycat

wasn't eating its food, and I was told to talk to it in animal

language. Being a conservationist and animal lover, I did not realise

how George Galloway was going to throw himself into it. When I came

out and that photograph was on the head of every single paper,

including the New York Times, 35 years in the business, that is

something that nobody ever forgets. It will be hard to top that with

Pygmalion, but lovely to talk to you.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is coming to London this week, and by

all accounts will be getting a royal reception. She is now the Prime

Minister's key ally in his project to renegotiate the UK's relationship

with the rest of the EU. William Hague joins us from Yorkshire to

talk about that, but first about the extraordinary situation in Ukraine.

Good morning. There is no government in the Ukraine at the moment, and

the opposition is deeply divided. Our you confident there will be a

provisional government by the end of the weekend? Or within a few days at

least? Well, I hope, of course, that very quickly there will be. There is

a moment of opportunity now for the Ukraine, after those terrible

scenes, the horrific bloodshed of a few days ago, there is an

opportunity, but there are still many dangers, of course, as you were

discussing earlier on your programme. The political situation,

even among the opposition, is very complex. It has clearly been a very

divided country. The position, the whereabouts of Mr Yanukovych and not

clear as we speak. So there are many dangers, but it is urgent that they

get on to form that a government of national unity in effect. It is

urgent that they agree the constitution, that they confirm

their constitutional arrangements for elections coming up, which they

have declared for May. And it is really urgent that they and we get

on with improving the economic situation. While all of this as been

happening, the Ukrainian economy is in a desperately poor situation, and

they need an economic programme that the rest of us, through the IMF and

other institutions, can support so that they can stave off even more

serious economic situations. These things are very urgent, and we will

be working with the Ukrainians and other European countries and the US

and Russia on all of these things. Are we talking to the Russians? The

Ukraine could split. We are talking to the Russians. This is a very

important question. It is very important for us to continue to try

to persuade Russia that this need not be a zero-sum game. It is in the

interests of the people of Ukraine to be able to trade more freely with

the European Union. It is in the interests of the people of Russia

for that to happen as well. You know, the Prime Minister spoke to

President Putin about this on Thursday, I will be talking to

Foreign Minister Lavrov of Russia tomorrow, so we are in constant

discussion with Russia, and it is very important that we keep that up,

particularly if there is an economic package. It will be important that

Russia does not do anything to undermine an economic package and is

working in co-operation and support of it. So a lot of work to do with

Russia over the coming days. Given that a lot of people in the east of

the country are pro-Russian and worried about what is happening in

Kiev, is there any possibility of Russia sending the tanks in? Well,

we don't know, of course, what Russia's next reaction will be. We

do know that Russia, as well as the unaided states, said a few days ago

that they would get behind the deal that had been signed. -- the United

States. This is the importance of us continuing the dialogue with

Russia. The deal that had been made has now been overtaken by events,

and this is the importance of us working with them. Any external

duress, sorry, any external duress on Ukraine, anymore than we have

seen in recent weeks, would make any of those things more likely. It is

not in the interests of Russia. I am surprised, nonetheless, to GU being

slightly equivocal. -- to hear you. Could there be a Russian

intervention? You were suggesting that, I am not suggesting that. I am

suggesting that it would not be in the interests of Russia to do any

such thing, that we have to keep up communication with Russia, as we are

doing, as you can gather, so that the people of Ukraine can use their

own way forward. I am not suggesting anyone will stop them, but there are

many dangers and uncertainties. The people of Ukraine must choose their

own way forward. I am not suggesting that anybody is going to stop them,

but there are many dangers and uncertainties. Can I turn to the

future of our relationship with the EU and Angola Merkel's arrival next

week. Francois Hollande got a pub supper, whereas Angola Merkel is

getting reception in Downing Street, and being given the Royal red-carpet

treatment. Is this a suggestion she is much more important to us now

than the French? Of course Germany and Germany's Chancellor are very

important partners in Europe. This is a different sort of visits from

the French visit, that was a short summit to discuss our bilateral

defence and security cooperation. This is a more wide-ranging visit

from Angola Merkel. Germany is our most important partner on seeking

reform in the European Union because it is Germany that has such a strong

position in the Eurozone and has managed to maintain a dynamic

economy itself, and Germany is in that key position in the European

Union. Our relations with Angola Merkel are very good and we want

together to make sure that Europe is more competitive, more flexible,

more democratically accountable than it is today and those are the sorts

of ideas we will be discussing. She is a deep, profound believer in

strengthening the European Union. Realistically, what can you get out

of her in this negotiation? She is a believer in those things but also a

believer in Britain being a member of the European Union, and she knows

and I believe she understands what our Prime Minister David Cameron has

been putting forward, that this is the age of flexibility,

accountability, competitiveness. The European Union cannot be immune from

those things. In every nation state we are having to adapt to those

pressures and it is important the EU does so as well so we will be

discussing the ideas we have in common, and it is our intention

after the next general election to improve Britain's relationship with

the European Union, to renegotiate the relationship between Britain and

the EU and improve it on the lines we have spoken so we can give people

a choice in a referendum by the end of 2017 of staying in or leaving the

European Union. I was astonished last week when Jose Manuel Barroso

said there were no talks whatsoever, is this just smoke and

mirrors before the election? The negotiation is for the future. There

are important things happening all the time, we have succeeded in many

negotiations such as bringing down the European budget for the first

time ever, reforming the fisheries policy, protecting the countries

outside of the Eurozone during proposals for banking union, all of

these things are negotiations in which Britain is succeeding. The

negotiation of the changes I am talking about is for after the next

general election but we are establishing the common ground with

Germany, with the Netherlands for instance, where their government has

issued a report talking about Europe, where necessary, but

national wherever possible. That is a good guiding forts and it is one

on which we can work with the Dutch. Returning to Angola Merkel,

are you going to be talking to her about things like the free movement

of people and welfare payments inside the EU or not? I'm sure these

subjects will come up. Germany also has strict benefit rules, it doesn't

want its benefits system to be abused. We support the principle of

the free movement of workers and many British people rightly take

advantage of that in the rest of Europe but we don't support people

moving from one country to another because of the incentives of

different benefit systems and I think again with Germany we have a

lot of common ground on that. William Hague in 2014 sounds to be

like a completely committed Europhile who wants moderate changes

but not too much, a mile away from the William Hague who lead the

Conservative party way back when. Fair point? No, actually my views on

Europe are exactly the same. My slogan then was in Europe, not run

by Europe and it remains the same now. It is essential for it to

reform and show that power can come back to nation states and

competencies can be returned to nation states. I want to see that

happen so that we can make a success of being in the European Union. That

has always been my position. I'm glad to say these days there aren't

really any people in Britain who say let's give up the pound, let's join

the euro, which is what they were saying when I was the leader of the

Conservative party and I was reacting against that. That debate

is over and now there is a new debate. If the Conservatives are

re-elected, that debate will be about keeping us in Europe, from

your point of view? It is about giving this country a choice. It

will be more than 40 years since before you or I have the right to

vote, that's the last time people had a referendum in this country. It

is right to give them a democratic choice. We want to be able to say,

as David Cameron has said, we want to be able to recommend that in a

reformed Europe and with a better relationship with it, we can stay

in, we can recommend to stay in, but people will have the choice and that

negotiation will have to take place. The changes we need to see

are serious and very important for this country's future and Europe's

future. Don't underestimate the scale. You mention the Dutch, are

they our new crucial allies in all of this? They are very important

allies in this because in the Netherlands as in this country there

is a debate about these ideas, there is a government that is talking

about these things and that is across Dutch politics and it is true

in their Labour party as well as they are very important allies in

this because in the Netherlands as in this country there is a debate

about these ideas, there is a government that is talking about

these things and that is across Dutch politics and it is true in

their Labour party as well as they're more centre-right parties.

They are not the only ones, there are people in many of the Nordic

countries who share these ideas, in Germany there is a strong overlap of

ideas so I think the time is coming in Europe to push these ideas of

flexibility, accountability and competitiveness. Sorry, there is a

time delay. Thank you for joining us.

The whereabouts of the Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych are

still unclear the day after he was voted to be removed from office. He

is thought to be in the east of the country. Last night the former Prime

Minister, Yulia Tymoshenko, addressed crowds at Independence

Square in central Kiev, praising demonstrators for having removed a

dictator. The Foreign Secretary has said many dangers are present in the

current situation in the Ukraine which he described as a divided

country. He said it was important to persuade Russia that the crisis in

the Ukraine need not be a zero-sum game. The British Chambers of

commerce has called on the Chancellor to invest in youth

training to avoid what it called a lost generation. In its submission

the group is pressing for a ?100 million fund to be established to

get young people into work or apprenticeships. The next news is on

BBC One at one o'clock. Now let's look at what is coming up

immediately after this programme. We will be in Oxford at ten o'clock

when we will be debating whether hate is a crime, should paying for

sex be illegal, and religions meddling in politics.

I am joined once more by Caroline Flint and Sarah Baxter. Let's talk

about women in politics because the Conservatives have some problems,

don't they? To their credit they elected a woman as their leader and

they seem to be squandering that heritage by not treating their

female MPs terribly well and not doing enough to attract female MPs.

Right across the spectrum, it remains difficult to get women in.

Is there more to be done? The job is never over, we have to strive to

make Parliament more representative of different backgrounds. Part of

our change and the reform next weekend when we are opening up our

party to registered supporters, that will give us an even bigger base

including women, from all sorts of different backgrounds, getting

involved in politics. Do you think we should be moving towards all

women short lists? I dislike that sort of positive discrimination but

something has to change because they don't want to become a party of men

only and they have got a real problem. I would like to see them

have so many more women. Ever since politics has started we have had all

male short lists for a long time. All-female short lists have played a

huge part but also it changes the nature of politics. It has made a

difference. I'm afraid that's all we've got time for this morning.

Join us again next Sunday here on BBC One at the usual time of nine

o'clock. In the meantime, as promised earlier, we leave you with

Nigel Kennedy. Accompanied by Eos from The Bond Quartet, this is

"Melody In The Wind". And we are very glad to have women on the front

line here!