06/04/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

I know people are often suspicious of the Westminster elite, lumping

journalists and politicians together. Really they are opposite

and hostile tribes, and ought to be. If you doubt this, just take a look

at the treatment of Maria Miller, the Minister in charge of press

regulations - caught out over her expenses yet defended by David

Cameron. The press are determined to tear her down. It's already long

drawn out, bloody and bitter. And it isn't over yet. Here to mull over

much weightier matters in today's papers are Isobel Hardman, Assistant

Editor of The Spectator, and The Guardian columnist, Polly Toynbee.

Now, each week we try to illuminate the big political issues, but I'm

aware these aren't always what's getting people angry. This morning,

however, we're tackling two subjects which really wind people up. First,

welfare. For many Conservatives, unless we cut our huge welfare

bills, this country will remain a bloated state, unable to prosper.

While some on the receiving end - the poor and disabled - say what's

being done is simply cruel. Iain Duncan Smith, the Welfare Secretary,

sees his task as a moral crusade, but the effect of what he's doing

has been attacked by some charities and religious leaders as profoundly

immoral. The second issue getting many people

fired up is the Scottish referendum. We spoke to SNP leader Alex Salmond

recently - today. We talk to Alistair Darling, spearheading the

"anti-independence" campaign. They've been faltering. Time for a

change of tack? We're also looking ahead to a

historic visit this week. I'll be speaking to the Irish Prime

Minister, Enda Kenny, ahead of the first ever state visit to Britain by

an Irish President. Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness going to

Buckingham Palace? British royalty marking the Easter uprising? All

will be revealed! And a great lady of the theatre in a

genuinely great new play wowing London. We'll be talking to Sinead

Cusack about a gripping family drama set among California's Republican

elite. As ever, first to the news desk and

Steph McGovern. Good morning. The Australian team

leading the search for the missing Malaysian plane says that pulses

detected by a Chinese ship in the southern Indian Ocean are an

"important and encouraging lead". But the head of the search team also

said the discovery should be treated with caution until it can be

verified. With the latest, here's our world affairs correspondent,

Phil Mercer. This be the breakthrough this painstaking

investigation has waited so long for? A Chinese patrol ship says it

has twice found an acoustic signal during its search for Flight MH370.

The frequency of the pulse is the same as those emitted by black box

data recorders. But there's no evidence so far that it is linked to

the missing plane. Chinese officials have stressed the signal had not yet

been identified. Australia, which is co-ordinating the search in the

Indian Ocean, remains cautious. While we certainly are throwing

everything we have at it, and while the best brains and the best

technology in the world will be deployed, we need to be very careful

about coming to hard and fast conclusions too soon In a further

twist an Australian naval vessel, the Ocean Shield, has heard an

unidentified acoustic signal in another part of the Indian Ocean.

Again there's no evidence at this stage to link it to the jet that van

Irshad month ago. Multinational recovery mission is racing against

the clock to find the flight recorders, as their batteries could

run out within days. The hunt for clues is intensifying off Western

Australia. A dozen planes and 13 ships are scouring an enormous

Schett of desolate ocean far larger than the size of England. Their task

is to some of what could be the greatest mystery in aviation

history. The Culture Secretary, Maria Miller,

is under renewed pressure this morning, as the row escalates over

her expenses claims. She apologised to MPs earlier this week after

overclaiming payments for her mortgage. Now the watchdog in charge

of parliamentary expenses has suggested MPs should no longer have

the power to police their own affairs.

Votes are being counted in Afghanistan after its historic

presidential election yesterday. It's the first democratic transfer

of power in the country. Despite threats of violence from the

Taliban, it's thought six out of ten people cast their vote, with huge

queues outside polling stations. Thousands of NATO and American

troops were deployed for security. Partial results are expected later

today, with the final announcement due next month.

Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, will

attend a state banquet with the Queen for the first time. The event

is being held at Windsor Castle later this week. Mr McGuinness, who

was a senior member of the IRA, is accompanying the Irish President,

Michael Higgins, on a four-day visit to the UK.

BBC One's talent show, The Voice, came to its climax last night. The

winner was announced at the end of the live final. It's Jermain!

The Londoner, whose mentor was Will-i-am, has now signed a major

record deal. That's all from me, for now. I'll be

back with the headlines just before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew.

Thank you Steph. Now to the papers. Andrew Marr's first rule of how to

decode the newspapers, if you see inverted commas on a front page be

very careful of the a case in point, the Sunday Express. Missing plane

found. Not really, not yet anyway. The Mail on Sunday is one of the

many papers gunning for Maria Miller. Sack her. 80% of

Conservative supporters want... The Observer, an interesting story about

Michael Gove's fight to save the reputation of his free school

programme. The Independent on Sunday, an

interesting story on supermarkets wasting food.

And the Sunday times, MPs can't be trusted on expenses. That's the

Commons watchdog himself saying that, and as we have been saying

might happen for a long time, the Scotland vote, yes to independence

is now neck and neck with staying in the union. That's getting very

close. We'll talk about that later. The Sunday Telegraph and Minister,

an unnamed Cabinet Minister, Miller must go. To talk about all of that,

Christina and Polly welcome. You are going to start with the Sunday

Telegraph version of Minister must go. It is interesting that the Tory

press who are gunning for her. They are after her. There is I think a

subtext here. It is not just the rudeness of her so-called apology,

32 seconds. Very grudging, that was an outrage really. But there's

something else going on here. It is partly about Leveson, that her

people may or may not have at some point threatened they would use the

Leveson process to get her own back on the press. Underneath all of this

is the murder in the right-wing press fighting against the Leveson

process, which has run into the sand. Quite a crude threat when we

heard about it. Is bell, at the centre of the right-wing press, The

Spectator and so forth. Is that a fair assessment from Polly? It is

probably why the MPs shouldn't be allow allowed - ensure is connected

to talks MP had with the press. It is just as worrying. Do you think

anything is going to happen now? This is the stage where Ministers

circle the wagons to protect her. Cameron say she is going to stay,

the press go on about it for a few days and lose interest? ? If the

Prime Minister wants to hold on to a Minister, she will be very damaged,

won't be given anything important to do. But if the Prime Minister wants

to protect someone, he, and the press will push off. They like to

think they can knock somebody off their perch, but in the end the

Prime Minister's word is what runs. Cameron is quite a stubborn chap.

The more the press call for Miller to go, the more likely he is to keep

her. He doesn't like the idea of newspapers pullying. He is quite

stubborn about this? He is, 80% of Conservative supporters want him to

axe MP. He should worry what voters think about this impression of the

expenses scandal coming to the surface again. It is not just about

her. It's about the credibility of all politics, across all of the

political parties. A sense of real disgust about the expenses, which is

welling up again. Sure, and if the plane is discovered tomorrow all of

this vanishes from the front pages for days. But all we've heard it's

is a pipping of two really. It doesn't seem to be much. What you

can say? Day after day this mystery is some offed and then not some

offed, a clue found here and there. I can't remember a major news story

going on for so long with so little new news. Page five of the Sunday

Express does have a deadline for searchers finding this black box.

They say 24 hours to confirm plaque box location. We may get an actual

development at some point but it may not be the one you are looking for.

Why do they say hope, you feel sorry for the families The next story,

Polly. A column from the Sunday telegraph. Yes, Iain Duncan Smith,

who will be talking to shortly. The one-year anniversary of the bedroom

tax. Of all of his benefit changes, it's the one that have struck the

hearts of the public and people have turned against it. These benefit

changes may popular but not the bedroom tax. He is hitting back with

an article of his own. Virtually an article of his known the Sun. There

is an interview with him in the Sun on Sunday. The under occupancy or

bedroom tax doesn't poll well with the public. If you talk to Ministers

privately, they always try to distance themselves from the policy.

A few of them have said to me it was Lord Freud's idea, normally the sign

you've lost the act. Two third of those affected by the bedroom tax

are disabled, some seriously. The arrears building up, rent arrears, a

lot of people are expected to lose their homes and a lot of them are

very needy people. It is interesting that Iain Duncan Smith, unlike many

other Conservatives, still has the absolute support of the Conservative

press. He has. He is contrasted with MP as somebody who -- contrasted

with MP, who The technicalities, so

monstrously... Thank you for that Polly. I will remember that when I'm

talking about it. You've picking up on Michael Gove, and free schools.

The Observer's front page. A big story about a leaked document.

Inside Michael Gove's own department, his own Ministers very

worried about free schools being so off the leash that a lot of them

have no experience, no managerial experience. Four of them failing

badly. One has already been closed down. A lot of them haven't had an

Ofsted inspection. It does seem that those that are in big groups work

better. This very the experience, the administrative schools. But

these one-offs, really free, free schools are all over the place. It

is quite risky. But again, by and large the Conservative press likes

radical Conservative Ministers and have supported Gove and it has

supported Iain Duncan Smith. Your next story. This is the front page

of the Independent on Sunday, a report from the House of Lords which

clams the morally repugnant failure of Britain to deal with food waste.

We are throwing out a third of food in this country. A strange tension

between country which wastes food and a rising number of food banks.

And obesity. This is much more complex than not being able to

access food, but they are eating too much of the wrong food as well. It

is not as simple to say that a third of the food waste should be handed

to people who haven't got enough to eat? The peers should say that buy

one get one free deals should be scrapped. That's unfair on those who

really are trying to scrape together money to buy food for their family.

They are not always cheaper. Polly, we've talked about Scotland. This is

really interesting. A Sunday Times front page "Yes" vote now neck and

neck, only six points away. The SNP side of the argument is coming up

fast. We've still got quite a long way to go until the September

referendum. And this is because don't knows are breaking two to one

in favour of voting for independence rather than stay in the union?

Absolutely. I think also that probably one element, if Labour slip

as bit in the polls down south, I think it makes it more likely that

the SNP makes some headway, because the idea of another Conservative

Government in which Scotland feels it has no part, no interest

whatever, probably helps the "yes" vote. We'll be talking to Alistair

Darling later. David Davis in the Mail on Sunday. Talking about

referendums. He has come out as saying quitting the EU would be good

for Britain. It is something you would say if you have your eyes on

the Tory leadership at some point. But there are some jitters on this

referendum in the Conservative Party. Some would like David Cameron

to appoint an official negotiator who can spend their time talking to

EU leaders and making the case for reforming, just like a Prime

Minister does not have time to, because he is the Prime Minister.

Every contender for the Tory party leadership has had to say, if there

was a vote tomorrow, I would go out now. I think if you are going to be

a credible leader you have two come out because that is the way it is

going. After the Nigel Farage and it played debate, what is the backwash

in the papers? Nick Clegg clearly lost that debate, according to the

papers? There has been some briefing about Nick Clegg's position after

the European elections. They will always be the subplot to the great

Tory UKIP battles. Nick Clegg has not got the heft to carry this

argument so Nigel Farage was always going to do better as the outsider.

This does not tell us what will happen if there is a referendum.

Nick Clegg was talking about economics and the importance of

staying in and Nigel Farage was talking about being part #

impossibility of Parliamentary democracy in the EU. I think he did

himself some good for standing up for the one principle he has left.

Not sure he will thank you for that. There is a piece of good news at the

moment, which is the vote in Afghanistan in the sense people are

defying the Taliban, turning out to vote? A lot of the papers have

lovely pictures of queues of women in burka 's waiting hours to cast

their vote. It should put the people here who don't vote to shame. In

Afghanistan, you could be blown up when you go to vote, and people in

this country say they cannot be bothered. Was that long war worth

it? This is the acid test. The Taliban in Helmand said if you vote

we will hand you or we will shoot you, but people still turned out to

vote. This is a picture in the Sunday Telegraph of the Olympic

Park. Someone doing acrobatics on the sculpture, which I think is

beautiful. Lots of people think it is ugly and he has been pleading

with people to learn to love it recently. Any final stories? It

would not be Sunday if we did not have several stories about the

insane house price rises. The desperation of people who cannot get

onto the ladder. In the Observer, people renting, who will rent for

ever. Insecure, how to move their families every few months because

you don't get very long. It is a geographical divide isn't it? The

Tories used to put house-buying on all of their election posters, but

now a lot of people don't want new homes in those areas. Thank you both

very much. Now to the weather. Dreadful weather in parts of the

North last week. Polluted down south, are we act is seeing some

spring weather? I can deliver most things

eventually, and there will be some dry weather in a second. But there

will be rain at times thanks to this low-pressure throwing these weather

funds eastwards across the British Isles. It is windy across the South

Western quarter, around 35 miles an hour gusts in some locations. Breezy

inland as well. Ahead of this weather front it will still push the

temperatures into the teens. Brighter skies getting into Northern

Ireland and maybe Scotland, northern England and Wales to finish off

today. As the weather front tumbles further south, we keep the rain

coming in the south. A cooler night in prospect. As mild as it was last

night across the South. Watch out for Monday, across a good part of

England and Wales because it will be quite wet. For the North West of

Scotland, Northern Ireland, showers here. The rain eventually clears

away but it will take awhile. The rest of the week, certainly for

England and Wales, drier weather, Sony spells. Scotland and Northern

Ireland will have a weather front around in the middle of the week.

Just under six months to go till the referendum on independence for

Scotland and although the polls still put the unionists in the lead,

the nationalist Yes campaign seems to be gaining ground. Despite big

unionist interventions on the currency, Europe and business. The

nationalists seem to be waging the more successful and positive

campaign street-by-street and town-by-town - and the polls are

closing. The former Labour Chancellor, Alistair Darling, is

running the Better Together campaign. Good morning.

As the Sunday Times, firmed this morning, you are losing this

argument? No, the polls don't show that. If you take today's which has

always been an outlier in Scottish polls, if you look at the change

from this month to last month, it has not changed. Slightly contrary

to what you are saying, every single pole conduct did this year and last

year as well, shows us with a consistent lead. If you look at the

polls since the beginning of this year, some of them show the lead

increasing, some show a slight move towards the Nationalists. But you

need to get this into. The majority of people in Scotland are against

independence. I think we will win this as long as we get across our

arguments about the benefits of the UK. And we make our arguments

strongly, we will win. But we need to get these polls in perspective.

This one today is an outlier and it is not changed since the last one.

Professor John Curtis in Glasgow are saying things are narrowing, the yes

campaign is gaining ground and they feel they -- you are losing the

argument, are they wrong as well? Professor John Curtis is a respected

pollster. Some polls have shown some tightening. There is six months to

go, they will automatically move around. I wish we got the same

attention in the polls when our lead increased. Opinion polls are an

approximate died. There are the usual caveats and buckets of salt

should be poured on these things. I think we will win this argument are

provided we continue to get our arguments across. There is a

powerful case for staying part of the UK in terms of jobs, in terms of

opportunities and in terms of us in Scotland as a country to in roof the

standard of living and we have strong bonds of culture, a shared

history of 300 years. It is a powerful case for staying in the UK

and we will continue to make it. The negativity you referred to is

largely coming from the Nationalists, who in the last week

alone, when anyone speaks out against them, we had a businessman

in the week who said he thought staying in the UK would be better

for his business to stay in the UK, the behaviour towards him was

disgraceful. We are the ones who are being positive about the case for

the United Kingdom. Nationalists are consistently negative and will do

anything to shout down anyone who speaks out against them. What you

are really doing again is warning the Scots they cannot have this,

cannot have that, the dangers of independence rather than making a

positive and enthusiastic case for staying British, a case for

Britishness, if you like. Do you think there needs to be a change of

tone? I made it clear from the start, we will make a very strong,

positive case of the sort I have just been outlining as to why it is

in Scotland's best interests to be part of something digger. The best

of both worlds where we have a strong, devolved Scottish parliament

with powers over things like education but it is in the interests

of us all, Scottish firms and businesses in particular to have no

regulatory difficulties, no currency difficulties. If we look at the

people who have been most vociferous in the last couple of months about

the disadvantages of break-up of separation, it has not been our

campaign, it has been Scottish as Mrs, people like standard life, who

point out in 90% of their customers happen to live in the rest of the UK

and they are worried about the consequences of putting a barrier

between them and their customers. We will make the positive case. Nothing

would please the Nationalists more if I said, we will not ask any more

hard questions. When we ask questions about membership of the

European Union and they claim to have a legal opinion. It did not

exist and what they were saying is not true. In relation to the

currency, even their own people are saying what they want, and to quote,

" nonsense on stilts" . We are talking about the future of the

United Kingdom as well as Scotland, so I will continue to be positive

cos I believe passionately about it. I will not be put off by asking

questions which make the Nationalists uncomfortable, which is

why they don't want me to ask these questions. When are we going to hear

in detail from Labour about devolution if the voter goes no? You

did a couple of weeks ago. The Labour Party published a couple of

proposals. The Liberals have done it earlier this year and the Tories

will publish something in May. Right from the time the Scottish

parliament was established in 1999, the settlement has moved on and next

year, sorry, 2016, the Scottish parliament will be obliged to set an

income tax rate so it has the power to spend money, but also it is the

responsibility of raising money. Other parties are saying there are

other things you can do, in our case involving more in relation to

housing benefit. It makes sense to link housing benefit with housing

policy, which is already devolved. Equally, the work programme and

other measures. That process will go on, but it then if it's Scotland to

have that strong, powerful Scottish parliament but it also benefits us

to be part of the UK. It is a positive case and it needs to be

made again and again. The majority of people in Scotland are not

persuaded by the nationalist argument. They see the advantage of

being part of something bigger. There was an interesting change made

to the number two finance bill last week which allowed for a variation

in tax rates in Scotland, and has been interpreted as a major move by

the government to allow more variation on tax by the Scottish

parliament in the future. Is that the kind of thing you are expect

thing and can you explain it to us? There has been over interpretation

on what is a minor matter. The Scottish Parliament has had the

power to vary the income tax rates that were set up. It has never been

used. Only once did a political party campaign on increasing tax and

it lost Radley. The proposals I was referring to, which is the biggest,

single change to devolution, that is coming through. The changes in the

Finance Bill you are talking about are more technical than that. People

in Scotland want to see a powerful Scottish parliament and that is what

they get. We also have the advantages of being part of the UK,

something bigger as well as things we have not talked about, the

non-economic arguments, the shared identity and history. And the

opportunity to do something better for people in Scotland as well as

people in the UK. Can I turn to a final matter, which has been a

divisive issue in Scotland. There has been a lot of tempers raised and

things said by people to each other. The SNP are talking in private

according to Scotland on Sunday, about a post independence agreement

on devolution. Do you think it will be possible for tempers to settle

and Scotland to bind itself back together again, what ever the

results at the referendum? I certainly hope so. Nothing is more

likely to turn people off than the sight of politicians squabbling with

each other. That is what distressed me about what was happening last

week in Scotland when members of the public were being monsters. That has

got to stop. The eyes of the world are on Scotland for the next six

months. Whether you talk about further devolution, sadly when we

set up the Scottish Parliament with constitutional convention and in

relation to the proposals to tax, the one party he would not cooperate

was the Nationalists. First of all we have to decide whether or not we

are staying part of the UK. I believe we will win that argument.

After that there will be further discussions on it will be for the

good of Scotland if people worked together rather than indulging in

name-calling, shouting and personal abuse. That has no part in a

civilised society. I hope things will calm down so the entire country

will benefit from that. I have never heard you quite so fired up, thanks

for joining us. Sinead Cusack is one of the busiest actors around right

now. Her new film, an adaptation of John Banville's novel "The Sea", is

just out. And she's been on our TV screens recently in the cracking

World War One drama "37 Days" as the Prime Minister's famously feisty

wife, Margot Asquith. In a new play, Cusack plays a hard-as-nails

California Republican, whose family is turned upside down when a

troubled daughter reveals she's written a blistering memoir. I'll be

speaking to Sinead Cusack in a moment, but first a clip from "Other

Desert Cities" at The Old Vic. How could I ever be in your presence, if

you betray the trust of the family you would still be my daughter, but

the meaning of it would change. You would lose us. So you understand.

Why is it that children are allowed a sort of endless series of free

passes in this life? You all want to stay children forever, doing

whatever mischief you can think of. All you enentitled children of the

me generation. Sinead, this is a wonderful play. I've always wondered

what doctors and actors really want in a theatre. For the first time

yesterday when I saw it it is that extraordinary silence when you get

hundreds and hundreds of people completely silent, holding their

breath waiting for the next word, the next sentence. That's what you

got for large periods of time in this play. It is astonishing,

Cathedral-like silence when required. And up uprush hourious

laughter also when required. -- up roarious. What has been pulled off

in this play, to be able to repel, to amuse and to move all in this

space of a couple of hours. It is an extraordinary achievement as a

writer. It is a beautifully crafted play. And we should explain, it is

set among the California Republican elite. You are a friend of Nancy

Reagan and your husband was an ambassador of Ronnie Reagan's and it

is about what happens inside their family. But this is not your

customary territory. This is about as far from my political stance as

can be imagined. So when I read the play first, the character of Polly,

woman I play, I was repelled and moved in equal measure. I thought,

can I bear to play this woman? But monsters are interesting. When you

discover that beneath the veneer, the carefully crafted forensically

maintained veneer, this is a woman who is motivated by very often love,

and a steely determination to get her way. She's a toughy but she

can't be completely monstrous, because she's got so many of the

best lines in the play. Can you have a villain who keeps making you

laugh? The answer the probably not. Do you think you can? You play

Richard III, the part I've always wanted to play. Richard III makes

you laugh, but the monstrosity of the man is clear. With Polly, she

has adopt adopted. She passes. She uses the word "pass". She's a screw.

She comes from probably -- she's a Jew. She comes from probably Latvia

and has moved up the scale. She is pass passing as a very particular

sort of woman. And Kevin Spacey, who did play Richard III at the Old Vic

brought this over. There seems to be a thing in America for great family

dramas with enormous range. Something in Britain we don't seem

to manage so much. I don't know why. This has political resonance and

deep tragic resonance as well. I think Shakespeare managed that

didn't he, Andrew? A while back. Yes, the family dynamic which

informs this play massively is something, you are right, it tends

to be a rarity in English modern play writing. People who know the

Old Vic will be surprised, as it has been reorganised and remodelled.

This is in the round. That's a different way of acting, because you

must never know quite where to stand or look. It was so daunting when we

stood on the stage for the first time. You are so expose ?. There is

nowhere to hide. You can't turn your back on the audience at any point,

because they are on every side of you. But the wonderful thing that

happens is the audience comes into you. You don't have to shout, you

don't have to massively project. They come into the story. For this

particular story, which is about a family imploding, about a family

dynamic, the way they come into that and are a part of that is very

exciting. Can we ask about your other greater female character

recently, Margaret Asquith, in 37 Days. 37 Days? I want to know about

the Sarajevo assassination. Should I be worried? I don't see why. You

see, now I am worried. I can read you like a book. Well, I do hope I'm

not so transparent to foreign diplomats. . So? What is the Foreign

Office plotting? Plotting? We all know you sit on a mountain of

secrets. Nobody's plotting anything, Margot, but you have my assurance,

if this country has anything to worry about, will you be the first

to be told. When I came out after the interval

to see the second half of Other Desert Cities, people said to me,

isn't it wonderful to have a proper grown-up new play? This is an

extraordinary piece of work, because it was so old-fashioned, in a good

way. I was hugely impressed that it had been written in such a way, and

that we were able to produce it in such a way. It was, to sit round

that table, the first day read-through, and hear stuff that I

had never known about. The miscalculations, misjudgments,

mistakes to led up to a huge cataclysmic war. And Margaret

Asquith, I think she deserves a play all by herself. She's one of the

great political figures of British political life. I was entranced by

her. A great woman. She was, a very feisty human being. Maybe you can

fit her in before Richard III. Thank you Andrew.

It may seem strange, but almost a century since the fight for Irish

independence, there has never been a state visit to this country by the

President of Ireland. Tomorrow, all that changes. There will be lots of

pomp, but many serious issues for the two countries to talk about as

well. The Irish Prime Minister, Enda Kenny, spoke to me earlier. How

crucial is the symbolism of this visit, I asked. I think it means an

enormous amount to the people of Ireland but also to the people of

Britain. Symbolically it is of enormous importance. Practically it

brings the relationship between the two countries and the two peoples to

an unprecedented level. This was unthinkable 20 years ago. Taoiseach,

another significant anniversary coming up is the centenary of the

1916 Easter Rising, when rebels rose up against the Crown for Irish

independence. Are you really expecting the Queen or another

senior member of the Royal Family to attend the commemorations in 2016 in

Dublin of the Easter rising? It should be possible for members of

the Royal Family to visit Dublin during these centenary commemoration

ceremonies in 2016. It would be another event in the continuing

closeness and closer relationships between both our countries. During

the state visit, the Queen's going to be hosting a big formal banquet

for the Irish President. Are you encouraging her to invite Martin

McGuinness, a former IRA leader, to attend that banquet? Well, Martin

McGuinness as Deputy First Minister in the Assembly in Northern Ireland

has been very forthright and pragmatic in what he's been doing

here. I don't see why he shouldn't attend, of course. This is all part

of the building of relationships between the two countries and

peoples on both sides of the divide. We've got to move on and not be

blocked in the past. When the Queen spoke in Dublin Castle, symbolic

head of the British empiper in this country for several hundred years.

She said if you look at history there are some things you might do

differently and some thing you might not do at all. Her contribution

closed a circle of history. Critics of your government say you haven't

focused enough on the political crisis in Northern Ireland, and by

dropping the ball, in a sense, is you have allowed an atmosphere of

greater extreme nymph the province to develop. I disagree with that

completely. There are more meetings being held between Ministers and

officials and various agencies on either side of the border than ever

before. We've contributed constructively to Northern Ireland,

in terms of infrastructure, education, health, cross-border

activities. These are at an all-time high and he want it to con. Bill

Clinton put pit simply. He said look, the parties in Northern

Ireland have a democratic responsibility to finish the job. We

cannot finish it for them but we don't want a situation where there

is a blockage connected only to the past. Britain's trade links with

Ireland are bigger than with Brazil, India and China combined, so there

is a lot of attention being paid to the robustness of the Irish economy

and particularly the banking system. How secure do you think the Irish

banking system really is at the moment? Well, Ireland got into a

catastrophic economic situation. Britain was the first country to

offer assistance in terms of financial loans. We were the first

country to exit the bail-out programme last December. We're back

in the bond markets. Interesting rates down from 15% to just less

than 3 and ten-year money last week. We've recovered in that sense. Yes

public debt is too high. Yes private debt is too high. But we had a

primary surplus in last year's Budget. We are happy that our banks

are sufficiently well capitalised to deal with any elements of those

stress tests. You are sometimes tipped, Taoiseach, as a possible

future leader of the European Union, Ireland having been a poster boy for

the recovery. I wonder what you make of David Cameron's attempts to

renegotiate Britain's relationship with the EU at the moment. Quite

difficult for him. I wonder, have you talked to him about that? Well,

yes, I've spoken to Prime Minister Cameron on many occasions about.

This I agree that the European Union is stronger with Britain in it. I

agree with David Cameron about the extent of the digital capacity. We

have to deal with the energy system. We have to limb late further red

tape. We have to get the transatlantic trade talks in

operation. This means millions of jobs on either side of the age

business and trade links are of such importance. Europe would be very

much weaker without a strong Britain in there. We do hope that the

potential of the 500 million market is eminently understood by British

business. It is something that we would consider would be very much in

Britain's interest, but that's a matter obviously for the British

people. Taoiseach, many thanks for talking to us Thank you Andrew, and

bless you. Along with cutting the deficit,

reforming welfare is the coalition's other huge project - and it's very

much a personal mission for the welfare secretary Iain Duncan Smith.

A raft of benefit changes came into force a year ago, and he says

they're already making big savings for the Government. But at what cost

to the unemployed, the poor and the disabled? Mr Duncan Smith is with me

now. Good morning. Moshing Andrew. Can I -- Morning Andrew. Can I ask

about ESA? Why but ignore your main adviser before rolling it out to 1.

5 million people? Professor Harrington I'm talking about. The

personal independence plan is being rolled out in stages. We haven't

rolled it out in a big bang. That's deliberate. Professor Harrington did

three ruse of the ESA. And said that you did roll it out. No, we haven't

fully rolled it out. We've cabinet it in check. We are making

adjustments to it now. We know as the bigger volumes go through we can

see where the issues are and are adjusting those, so that when we

roll it out it will be perfect. This is a complicated area with a thick

eof acronyms, difficult to understand. Under the old regime, if

you could walk for 50 metres but no further you got the top rate of

disability living allowance. You've changed that to make it just 20

metres, cutting out a lot of people from that rate. Why did you do that?

Again, this is more complex than. This we said it is better to have

the measurement go in two stages. You ask people, can they make it

over that ground. 20 metres isn't far enough to get to your car. If it

is clear they can't do so but without concern, without difficulty,

they will get the full award. The point is to get a measure that

allows us to see first of all can they get to that 20? Can they get to

that 50. It is better for them in the long run, because it allows us

to focus on people with serious difficulty at the shorter distances,

ones that will be most seriously affected. They won't have to prove a

lower than distance, so it will be better for them. It does allow

flexibility with those doing the checks to ensure that those people

making it over 20 metres, is that process fair and reasonable or do

they really struggle struggle. How many are in favour of what you are

going to do? Seven is the answer of 1,100. On almost every change you

make in this area, very few people at first support it. We have kept

disability allowance going up with inflation and we spend more on

disability benefits and sickness benefits, than any other country,

double more than Germany. In this change you have made it harder for a

lot of people who find it hard to walk very far. We wanted get it so

it is more accurate. Under the last disability living allowance system,

70% of people who went and made a claim, got awards for life. We are

making regular checks, face-to-face so if people think during the course

of that you things have deteriorated, when they face that

person the following year, it will be raised. Had they gone on the

previous system it would have been years before they had a chance to

alter the situation. But taking it from 50 metres to 20 metres is

tougher, nonetheless? If they fail on that, they will get the full

award. We spend more money on disability payments than almost any

other country in Europe. I am proud of that, but my point is, tax who

want to protect the most disabled, they also need to know that money

goes to those who need it the most. If I can teeter 15 metres to the end

of the road to get to my car, I would have gotten this benefit

before. Now I don't get it. 20 metres, for a lot of people, is not

enough to get to their cars. It is how easy it is for you to make that

process. Because it will be a face-to-face assessment, it allows

those advisers regularly to review your capability. It has been miscast

as a simplistic measure, it is more complex. Giving greater scope to

measure that a properly so we can take into consideration that level

of disability. Do you know how many people have lost their benefit

because of the change? I am not aware if they have lost it. It is

tens of thousands. Do you know how many people have gone on to get a

better award because of it? It is not about losing. It is about

getting a better award. Personal Independence Payment will be much

better than disability living allowance that for people with

mental health conditions. They will do better, will get better awards

and therefore we will ring them properly into the support. The

company that was brought in to assess people in this ATOS has asked

you to buy them out, they have walked away? It is not true. I had

to bring in Professor Harrison to bring three reviews. We had to

improve a poorly performing programme. We became concerned about

the performance of ATOS against that. But the contract, had we

broken that would have cost millions. Last year I was able to

demonstrate they have not performed against set criteria so we started

immediate investigations looking into that. Now we have asked them to

go. They will pay us reparations for failure for failing to achieve what

they were meant to so the tax payer will not be out of pocket. We said

it was time to go, not the other way around. When will we hear what other

company is going to take over? We have been working very hard to make

that happen and nothing untoward should happen in the meantime. We

will compete for other contracts and we will improve it. It was a badly

set contract in the first instance. You don't know who is going to take

over? We have literally just gone to ATOS and broken the agreement. What

about all of those people waiting to be assessed and not getting

benefits. A lot of people in this situation are having to use food

banks and are suffering because of the failure of this system to assess

them. People who have applied, we are speeding up that assessment.

Late in the day, perhaps? No, we have been doing this all along. We

are trying to get people assessed. The last government started this

process, we are continuing it. We are looking at those whose

conditions have improved and going back to work. They are seeking work

now. But taxpayers will want to know one thing, the money they pay goes

to those who need that support. And for those who can do other things,

they want to see them move back into the world of work. For many disabled

people, they do want to achieve work. We have started disability

confidence, rolling out all over the UK, connect ding disabled people

with his Mrs. People on PIP don't lose that only go back to work. A

fifth are being paid for why people who are sick and disabled. It

beggars belief this can be done without causing pain and

difficulty? It is not easy or simple to do this, but the systems we had

in place were not working. Disability living allowance, 70% of

those who got awards got a lifetime awards. Nobody saw them. Under the

incapacity benefit scheme, a million people sat on that for ten years and

not one person was seen by anybody, whether they got better or worse. We

are reforming and changing this because it is not right to leave

people languishing with no one checking their condition. It is

better to have regular reviews. If your condition gets worse, you

should get more support. If your condition gets better, it is much

better where you can move into a position to get work and get

supported. Can I turn to the bedroom tax. If people can move out of one

kind of accommodation and into another, but there is no perfect

market and people find it difficult to move to a smaller accommodation

perhaps? What we are seeing is people in real difficulty, facing

homelessness and using food banks because of this tax. Can you

understand why it is so disliked? It is not a tax! What has happened is,

we have subsidise people to live and stay in accommodation which they

don't fully occupied. Many taxpayers who pay that had to make choices on

low and marginal incomes to live in houses they afford. It is right to

ask people in social housing to make the same sacrifice. The last

government introduced the same changed to tenants living in the

living on benefits. They are not allowed to have spare rooms. We have

one lot of housing benefit talent is being treated one way and another

lot been treated another. What was the principle behind this? Saving

?450 million a year on this by doing what? Asking people who want to stay

in those homes to pay more, cover the overall cost. We believe there

is also 300,000 people who have a living in overcrowded accommodation

who need to get into decent houses. They are blocked because people who

live in houses they don't occupy are not moving. And if you want to stay

in this house, it is an encouragement to go to work. It is a

balanced policy for the taxpayers. Even though the Liberal Democrat

colleagues are distancing themselves? They are not. Tim

Farron? The day in the Lords, the Liberal Democrat spokesman got up

and said it was a load of nonsense and voted for it. We would do this

even if we did not have two save the money. In a finite level of

resources you need to make the most of them. Can we briefly change the

subject? I am going to say the words, Maria Miller. There are

hundreds of thousands of houses all over the country where people are

swapping houses. 80% of Conservative supporters want Maria Miller to go,

are you going to tell them all to get knotted? No, this is complex,

she worked for me before she went to Cabinet. I think she has done a very

good job in difficult set of circumstances especially with the

Leveson Inquiry anti-gay marriage to. There are a lot of conservatives

who were not in support of it, so feel bitter about it. She is

receiving some of that as part of this process. I have known her to be

a reasonable and honest person. Is she doing the government any good by

staying in office? It is a matter the Prime Minister has to take

consideration of. I am supportive of Maria, because if we not careful we

end up in a witchhunt. She should rethink perhaps, her position? No, I

don't think so. The Parliamentary standards Commissioner has said it

is time for ministers to stop marking their own homework and

expenses issue to be given to an independent body? There are

independent individuals on the committee, but they did not even try

to amend it. I am happy for that to be debated. I am amongst the number

of those who feel this goes on and on, eating away at the credibility

of Parliament. Whatever it takes to restore credibility. He may have a

point? I am happy for independent people to look at this, as soon as

we get rid of this the better. Thank you for joining us, now over to

Stephanie for the headlines. The Australian team leading the

search for the missing Malaysian plane says that pulses detected by a

Chinese ship in the southern Indian Ocean are an "important and

encouraging lead". However, the head of the search team also said the

discovery should be treated with caution until it can be verified.

The British ship, HMS Echo, which has special detection equipment, is

now racing to the location. The flight recorder's batteries could

run out in a matter of days. The Work and Pensions Secretary has

given his support to Maria Miller who is under continuing pressure

over her expenses. Iain Duncan Smith said she was a victim of media

antipathy. She apologised to MPs this week after over claiming

payments for her mortgage. Now the watchdog has suggested MPs should no

longer have the power to police their own affairs.

That's all from me. The next news is on BBC One is at 1:00pm. Back to

Andrew in a moment but first, a look at what's coming up immediately

after this programme. Join us live from Bristol attempt at a.m.. We

look at Britain's role in Afghanistan. And the Cinderella law

and parenting. Science, should we have more faith in it?

Iain Duncan Smith is with me join right Polly Toynbee. What did you

make of that? It seems to me you are covering up to some extent, people

who are really suffering. If you think on your work programme, twice

as many people have unsanctioned and thrown up and fits than found a job.

600,000 people are losing disability live with -- living allowance. I

think the work programme is now, for the first time ever working with

people who were once on sickness benefits. Nobody worked with them at

all. There were over a million not look that for over ten years. These

regular reviews will then a fit them. We have not introduced this to

hurt or harm disabled people. But you have, only 5% have found work on

this programme. With respect, nobody found them work before. Yes they

did, the RNIB did. People on sickness benefits were written off

before. It takes a long time and it is a slow process. Many more have

been thrown off when fits. We are out of time, sadly.

Next weekend at this time, BBC One is devoted to the London Marathon.

The following weekend is Easter Sunday. But I do hope you're able to

join us three weeks from now at the usual time of 9:00am here on BBC

One. For now, a very good morning!