27/04/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Great to be back after the Easter break. What's changed in

politics? Not a lot, except that the Prime Minister got stung by a

jellyfish. Oh, yes, and UKIP's on the rise. Judging by this morning's

papers it's not the jellyfish David Cameron should be worried about,

it's the sharks. And joining me today for our review of the Sunday

newspapers, the former Labour cabinet minister Peter Hain and the

Sun columnist Jane Moore. But we're going to start with

something truly serious. The situation in Ukraine grows graver by

the day. The Ukrainian government talks dramatically of Russia of

wanting to start World War III. Will the tougher sanctions announced this

weekend be enough to deter President Putin from a full-scale invasion, if

that is indeed his plan? We'll hear this morning from Ukraine's

Ambassador in London, Volodymyr Khandogi. If Russia invades will

Ukraine fight? Here, with the European elections

campaign underway, and the general election looming, all the parties

are polishing up their key messages on issues such as jobs and

immigration. But the polls show that health remains near the top of the

public's list of priorities. I'm joined by the Health Secretary,

Jeremy Hunt. We hear a lot about problems at A, getting in to see

the GP, a crisis in elderly care. Exaggeration, or signs of a system

struggling to cope with financial pressures? The Greens' leader,

Natalie Bennett is here, too, with her election pitch.

Finally, on a morning when the papers say we are no longer a

Christian country, the best television advert for Christianity

joins me, the actor Tom Hollander, who stars in Rev. We'll be talking

about the future of the church and his other great enthusiasm, Dylan

Thomas. So that's war and peace, life and death, poetry and prayer

all squeezed into just an hour. Not bad! But first the news with Sian

Lloyd. The Ministry of Defence says the

helicopter crash in southern Afghanistan, which killed five

servicemen, appears to have been an accident. The Lynx was on what the

MoD described as a routine flight when it came down in Kandahar

province yesterday. The families of those on board have been informed.

This is the first fatal British helicopter crash during the Afghan

conflict and the third biggest single loss of life for British

forces. The five personnel who died when the Lynx helicopter came down

have not been named, though their families have been informed. In a

statement, the Ministry of Defence said:

The Prime Minister, David Cameron, who visited Afghanistan recently,

said his heart went out to the families and friends of those

killed. The helicopter crashed in Kandahar province. The Taliban

claimed to have shot it down, but the MoD says it was an accident. The

priority is to find the cause, in case there are wider implications

for the rest of the fleet. Every helicopter is vital. If you have to

ground a portion of the fleet because you don't know if they are

safe, that's not good news. The MoD says the wreckage has been located

and secured and is being examined for clues as to what caused the

crash. More than a million pilgrims are

expected in Rome today for an open air ceremony in St Peter's Square,

where both living popes will declare two of their predecessors saints.

The Vatican has confirmed that the former Pope Benedict will join Pope

Francis, in officiating at the canonisation.

Joy in the Vatican as they declare two of their own, already in heaven.

The canonisation of John Paul II is the quickest ever. He travelled the

world as an evangelist, but critics claim he was also an authoritarian

who closed down discussion. John XXIII modernised the church and

opened it to the world. Normally, a saint must have caused two miracles.

Pope Francis said that good Pope John needed only one. Making a saint

of John Paul II alone would have created a traditional model for the

papacy. Pope Francis has been very canny. By promoting the cause of

John XXIII, one of the great reformers. Bringing in Pope John

XXIII, he is also pointing to a kind of pontificate much like his own,

much more humble and open. Pope Francis wants to reform his church

but reunited as well. These two contrasting Saints could help him to

do so. The South Korean Prime Minister

Chung Hong-won has resigned over the handling of the country's worst

ferry disaster. All 15 crew members from the ferry, which sank ten days

ago, are now in custody following the arrest of four more sailors. 187

bodies have been recovered from the vessel. At least a 115 people are

still missing. It's emerged that the policeman at

the centre of the plebgate dispute involving the former Government

Chief Whip, Andrew Mitchell is seeking libel damages from him of up

to ?200,000. PC Toby Rowland is suing Mr Mitchell for suggesting he

was not telling the truth about the row at the gates of Downing Street.

Mr Mitchell has always denied calling the police officers plebs.

The former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams has said that Britain

is a post-Christian country and that a further decline in the influence

of the Church is likely in the years ahead. In an interview with the

Sunday Telegraph newspaper, Lord Williams of Oystermouth also warns

that the era of regular and widespread worship is over. His

comments follow David Cameron's recent decision to speak out about

his faith. That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines

just before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew.

Many thanks. As usual, to the front pages, a smorgasbord of different

stories. The most dramatic political story is the Sunday Times, UKIP's

surge into the lead rocks the Conservatives. That shows UKIP head

of Labour and way ahead of the Conservatives. The Sunday Telegraph

has gone with the helicopter story that we saw just now. There is also

a story at the bottom, we are a post-Christian nation. That is the

former Archbishop of Canterbury, based on a poll that shows that just

14% of people regard themselves as practising Christians, although

another 30% say they are non-practising Christians. 41% are

nonreligious. The Independent on Sunday asks Will nothing think Nigel

Farage, the answer will be no. This is about obesity in children. This

looks like the ultimate UKIP supporter, but it is in fact a chef,

Fergus Henderson, who leaves in nose to tail eating, he enjoys offal.

Peter Connelly you are going to start with UKIP? The Sunday Times

has this poll, which does not surprise me, UKIP surging. The

anti-politician mood in the country is so big, UKIP bar and bring this

up. It's not just Tory voters? Not just Tory voters, but mainly. It's

mainly at the expense of the Tories, being pushed way back into third

place. UKIP narrowly ahead of Labour. The Sun picked this up,

despite the fact that Nigel Farage has been criticised over expenses,

despite the fact that UKIP members have called women shuts, they blame

flooding on gay marriage, they: Lenny Henry to go home when he is as

British as anyone else, it is like Teflon, nothing sticks. In the

Guardian he said he was going after Labour voters. He wants to force the

Labour Party to concede to a referendum. Is that going to happen?

Ed Miliband made it clear if there is going to be a repatriation of

powers, there will be a referendum. The only party that has called a

referendum on Europe. I don't think Nigel Farage's success is going to

affect Labour on referendums at all. Interesting, the thing about Nigel

Farage is that he's quite a character. I think you are right,

the troubled now with politics is that a lot of politicians talk, but

they are not really saying anything to the electorate. The justification

is paramount. Nigel Farage says, yes, he has been a silly chap, I've

got rid of him and we will move on. Everybody goes, my God, how

refreshing. That is the only thing that is going on, really. We can

hear more from him next week. The new political editor in the Sunday

Times has said that Tory plotters are circling because of UKIP around

Cameron. The only thing that is saving him at the moment is the

upturn in the economy. One of the target is a great big blonde object,

paddling furiously through the shallows? He's in about every paper,

all of the stories differ. He's sort of another anti-politician? Sort of,

less eccentric than he makes outcome in private. He's very endearing,

again. When he is at home, you think he brushes his hair? I think he

might. The Mail on Sunday refer back to this rather famous dinner that

Michael Gove was that, where he had a couple of glasses of wine and

started saying that Boris isn't all he seems. He says he will not be

much good because he is indecisive. Boris has slapped him down and said,

concentrate on your own job and don't worry about gossip. Here,

hacking up Michael Gove, top Tories are losing patience because Boris is

dithering over a Commons seat. It makes him look indecisive. Here, in

the Sunday Times, they are saying that Boris has found a way to be an

MP and stay on, finish as Mayor of London, by saying he will not be a

Cabinet Minister. That will then place him, if it happens, ready to

pounce, has and -- as and when. It says here, there is only one reason

why he is eyeing a seat in the house, because he does not expect

the Tories to win and then he will be well-placed to take over as

leader. I do wonder why anybody wants to be politician. In the Mail

on Sunday we have a new culture secretary, saying that when he was a

city banker, the bonus he received was channelled through a tax haven.

It's already starting on the new guy.

He has basically said the Presto need to worry about regulation? In

terms of the press, it's a huge victory? Absolutely, but it makes me

think, why would you go into politics? At birth, you have to

decide you should be a politician and completely edit your life

accordingly so it is unblemished in every way so that when you do go

into office nobody can write anything about you. Leaving few of

us able to stand? I certainly wouldn't. Unblemished Peter Hain? I

had political form, as one Labour person told me, because of my

anti-apartheid acts. We'll talk about that in a moment. Roland

Williams gives a very interesting interview in the Sunday Telegraph in

this case. -- Rowan Williams. He says we are a post-Christian nation.

He said 14% of us regard as practising Christians, but we regard

ourselves as a Christian country. We don't think we are Christians, but

we want to live in a society where people behave as if they are. I am

agnostic, but I think a lot of the values that my parents taught me

were actually Christian values, even though my dad is an atheist.

Christianity basically needs the Pope's PR. Everybody out on the

street, hurray! Anglicans don't have the same pizzazz. But they have a

very good poet. There is a poem by the former archbishop, a jolly good

poem, inside the paper. But the faith structure is still being

taught in schools. And absolutely it should be. Even if you don't go to

church, if you use that faith structure you are following a

Christian way of life. Speaking of famous Christians, William

Shakespeare, probably a Catholic, actually. Yes, 450 years old this

week. I absolutely love this story. Apparently there is a bit of an

argument brewing at the Palace between Prince Phillip and Prince

Charles. Who would cross Prince Phillip? Certainly not me, having

met him a couple times. He apparently thinks Shakespeare was

not responsible for all of his plays and that possibly Sir Henry Neville

might have been. Prince Charles, apparently, is very much of the view

that Shakespeare did write all of his plays. One expert has been

called in by Prince Charles to produce arguments to back up his

theory. I do lath this one here, expert Stanley Wells, who has

written in defence of Shakespeare's authorship, said he had crossed

swords with Prince Phillip. He recalled asking the Prince if he was

a heretic, only to be told, all the more so after reading your book.

From Shakespeare to current day skulduggery, this is the great story

that has been occupying the papers. The whole weekend's papers have been

dominated by Ryan Giggs, doing very well yesterday. I cannot help but

feel sorry for David Moyes, a decent man. He looks haunted. This talks

about the skulduggery that went on. It is the nearest thing we get to a

public execution, this disembodied career dangling. If I were him, I

would take my 48 squillion pounds payoff, and say, so what. My husband

is a football fan, he is obsessed with this story. Rolling news, and

it is like Groundhog Day. You would have sympathy for my wife because

she feels the same about me, I am a Chelsea fan. You must never forget

the quote from Bill Shankly, he said, people say to me football is a

matter of life and death but they don't understand... It is far more

important than that! You have something about Simon Cowell. Yes,

it turns out that not all he touches turns to gold. According to the

Sunday Mirror, the musical that he invested in, called I Can't Sing is

going to close after only two months, which is very sad for the

cast involved. Not so sad for the national culture perhaps. Some of

these survive and some don't, so what is the key? There is one moving

story recently about the Afghan voting, off the back of the tragic

helicopter crash. Yes, this paper makes the point that it was Harry's

comrades. It is right at the end of the British involvement in

Afghanistan and it is still killing our people. On the other hand a few

weeks ago we had this incredible surge to the polls in the elections.

Women being told they shouldn't vote by the Taliban, and they chose to

anyway. 20 years ago to this day was the big South African vote after the

end of apartheid, wasn't it? Yes, I remember being a Parliamentary

observer outside Soweto, watching these people queueing to vote for

the first time in their lives, and then of course Nelson Mandela was

elected. We are celebrating today with the new film. Let's have a very

quick clip of that. We, as individual musicians, we are

just musicians, and we are endorsing something together so it is really

nice because it had that little twist. That is Annie Lennox. Peter,

that was an extraordinary moment of hope and optimism, but 20 years on

things look a little bit tougher, certainly for the ANC with stories

of corruption and problems and challenges to the leadership. What

is your take? They have achieved a great deal, electricity and running

water. It is a joyous country to visit but the ANC is in big trouble

with its grass roots. The enrichment of the black elite and the poverty

that still remains, it has got to stand up and meet that challenge and

I'm not sure its leadership can do so, in which case it will have a

very tough time following the election. What is interesting, the

freedom fighters are coming up. You have interviewed this guide, he is

seen as a big threat to South Africa? He is a populist and an

opportunist but he is very clever and speaks for the disenfranchised

poor. A story to keep watching for the future. Thank you very much

indeed for that. The past few days have seen some

spring sunshine, and a good few April showers too. Par for the

course, I suppose. But what can we expect for the rest of the weekend?

I was promised a heatwave! Over to Darren Bett in the weather studio.

We have this band of cloud producing rain and drizzle, these are the

showers in the south. They have been there all night, all morning and

will continue across much of the day, pushing northwards. Some heavy

rain across Wales actually. Increasing amounts of cloud coming

into Scotland and north-east England, making it feel cold in

these areas. We will see more rain in these areas overnight, edging

towards Northern Ireland by the night. Further south, those showers

will tend to fade away from most places. A lot of low cloud and a

misty start to Monday. It brightens up in the south so it will trigger a

few more of those showers, some slow, heavy moving downpours and

maybe some in the Midlands as well. When the sun is out, it could be

very warm in the north of Scotland. Next week, staying very unsettled.

Further showers, longer spells of rain and it looks like it will turn

colder by the end of the week, but at least we will get more sunshine.

President Obama has warned Russia that it must stop what he calls its

destabilising activities in eastern Ukraine. It is convinced Russia is

provoking unrest, but will the new international sanctions influence

President Putin's calculations? I am joined now by Steve Rosenberg. There

is an anxious mood on both sides, people thinking the Russians will

invade. That's right, fears are growing, and when you consider the

Russian military build-up near the border with Ukraine, and if you

listen to the rhetoric, the comments being made this week, things like"

the Russian machine must be stopped". You feel the momentum is

building to some kind of Russian military intervention. Is it

inevitable? It isn't but certainly possible. What happens if the

Russian tanks roll over the border? Will there be war? Will the

Ukrainians fight? It is a difficult question and in recent weeks there

has been a sense of the Ukrainian army has been demoralised and in the

state of disarray. After the ease with which pro-Russian armed groups

have been able to take over government buildings in eastern

Ukraine. But the Government in Kiev has said it will fight and put up

resistance. They have been conducting what they describe as a

counterterrorism operation across the region. So is this crisis moving

towards a stage where a conflict on Europe's borders is inevitable? I'm

joined by Ukraine's ambassador in London, Volodymyr Khandogiy. I

suppose my first question is what happens if those tanks to roll over

the border? I am confident that Ukraine's Armed Forces will fight

and that should be clear to everyone, it in particular the

Russians. Can you really stop the Russians taking over the east of the

country if they want to? That is a hypothetical question but I think

Ukraine would need help from wherever it might come to stop the

Russians. It will be very difficult for the Ukraine alone to fight such

a big country. What to look for from NATO and the other Western

organisations? We think it is very important that the OAC presents is

there. Let them flood the country. This is an organisation that is

locked in a dungeon somewhere. Yes, they have been kept by pro-Russian

forces. They are not exactly the monitors from the OAC but they are

in the country in accordance with the Vienna document. Do you know the

conditions in which they are being kept? We don't have any information

on that. You are going to take back some of the buildings that have been

taken by pro-Russian forces, but we haven't seen much of that actually

happening. The counterterrorism operation is ongoing. We don't want

to harm the innocent civilians, which is why the operation is not

that effective as one could have expected but it is going on. There

are certain steps. I don't want to comment on the military side but it

is going on but I am confident it will bring results. If Russia

doesn't move over the border with troops, are you going to look to

NATO and the west for military support? It is really up to the

west, what kind of support they will offer. Ukraine will be looking for

their support. We are not talking at this stage for any direct military

involvement from the NATO countries or from the west in general, but

certainly at this stage we are talking about materials, non-lethal

equipment that might be provided. It is on the same sort of scale of

Belgium taking on the Empire in the First World War. Ukraine certainly

is looking for international support, but coming back to square

one we are prepared and we are ready to use all the necessary means to

fight. What would you like the west to do that it hasn't been doing

until now? We still have two explore all possible diplomatic steps. We

have to talk about further economic sanctions against the aggressor so

there are instruments at the disposal of Western countries to go

ahead. Russia says again and again that the government in Kiev is not

legitimate. That can be ended when there are elections in Ukraine, how

long before they take place? We have a legitimate government now and

those allegations are ridiculous, but the elections will take

place... The election of the president will take place on the

25th of May and this is something that will reinforce the legitimacy

of the presidential office. Do you think the crisis is at its most

serious before the election takes place perhaps? I think the immediate

objective is to disrupt these elections so we have to ensure these

elections will take place. Do you think the new sanctions will

make any difference? Yes, we have to think about the sanctions which are

painful, not simply the nominal steps but painful sanctions. They

are there, we all know them, and the issue is how to introduce them. I

read that tomorrow will be for the negotiation on that issue. A lot of

people looking from the outside here Ukrainian and Russian spoken in

Ukraine and they look at the Orthodox churches and the

traditions, and they say what is the difference between Ukraine and

Russia? Well, a former President of Ukraine wrote a book and the title

was Russia Is Not Ukraine. And vice versa, Ukraine is not Russia.

Historically, cultural, although we are very close, and I have to say

that, these are two nations. Would it be so disastrous if the eastern

Ukraine, more Russian speaking, did succeed? Could you live with it, in

the end? I don't want to comment on that, I am a firm believer that

nothing of that sort would happen. Thank you very much indeed for

coming to talk to us. The Green Party launches its

campaign for the European elections tomorrow. There'll be a focus on

policies for the environment, obviously. And a lot of talk about

how the Greens differ from the established parties. But they're not

the only ones making that pitch, it's a big theme with UKIP, too. I'm

joined now by the Greens' leader, Natalie Bennett. Welcome. Thanks for

coming in. If one looks at the pitch you are making, there is a great

deal about fracking. It seems to have become one of your great

causes, recently? That is certainly an issue I identify with. But it's

more broader than that, our society is not working for the common good.

We are talking about good jobs that pay a living wage, fighting against

privatisation, the kind of rush privatisation that I will be talking

about later. And issues of climate change which climate change and

fracking as part of. If we go to the chair of Cuadrilla, he says, we will

know in five years if we have gas that we can get through fracking in

Britain. It may never get off the ground anyway. But there is also

massive public resistance to it. We have been very much there on the

front line, supporting campaigners. When it comes to the European Union,

you are in favour of the free movement of people and particularly

people coming in and getting full access to public services. You are

on the unpopular side of the argument, it seems? I think a lot of

people acknowledge that immigrants coming from the EU contribute a lot

to Britain. We have the option of a great number of Britons, and almost

equal number of Britons, living in the European Union as we have here.

We also have to respect the rights of refugees, the rights of British

people with foreign spouses. At the moment, with our immigration policy,

we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. This year, the number of

foreign students applying to British universities has gone down and that

is a huge cost that has come from our immigration policy. You say you

are in favour of national minorities and regions. I know that the Green

Party in Scotland are part of the yes campaign. Is that the case for

the Green Party generally? Very much so. We believe that we need to, in

terms of the broader European Union, we need to spec the principle of

single or tea. We need a reformed European Union where people make

more decisions locally, just as we need a more democratic European

Union and one that is not working for big multinational countries but

for the interests of people. So no EU and US free trade deal. All of

the stories about the European elections are about the rise of

Nigel Farage and UKIP. Are you pitching yourselves as the anti-UKIP

party? I would very much put it as that. UKIP is the party of fear. Be

fearful, vote for us. We are saying, hope for a better society,

vote Green. This is proportional representation. We are part of the

fourth largest group in European Parliament. We are making a

difference, doing the work in Europe and not just being anti-Europe. The

greens are very powerful in Germany and other European countries. Is it

a representational issue that means that they haven't really broken

through in this country? You have had local successes, but nothing

like the success greens across the continent have had? We have a first

past the post system, but we have shown that we can beat that. We

elected Caroline Lucas in Brighton Pavilion. That means anywhere else

in the country can do that as well. We run Brighton and Hove Council, we

are likely to be the opposition in Solihull after the elections. We are

making advances. But the European elections are proportional, every

vote counts. The other parties have funding from rich people, the

unions, have you got any money at all? We have two things, money from

members and supporters, we are not talking about rich people, but every

?5 or ?10 count. What we have is a shoe leather enthusiasm. We have a

lot of people on the ground, delivering newsletters and knocking

on doors. Tom Hollander's career has

encompassed some of the best comedy and drama, huge hits like In The

Loop and Pirates of the Caribbean. The latest series of the BBC's drama

Rev mingles comedy with serious cultural issues like gay marriage.

He plays a troubled inner-city vicar, but he can soon be seen soon

in an entirely different role as the great Dylan Thomas. The drama

follows the Welsh poet on his final journey to New York where his demons

destroyed him. Tom is here to talk about both these roles, but first

here he is in a tricky situation as Rev Adam Smallbone.

Robert and Jeremy. Earlier today you committed yourself to one another in

a union, not here, but at the town hall. We're married! No, you're not.

Yes, we are. No, you aren't. Yes, sort of. You were, not here, as it's

against the law. No, it's not. Yes, no, it's against church law. So,

what we're doing here is celebrating your intention to be together, for

better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health

and to love and to cherish till death do you part. I do. No, you

don't. Lots of gritty issues, that is just

one of them. I have to Askew, are you yourself a Christian? A lot of

Christians have said it is a great representation of the problems

facing the Anglican faith that the moment. I feel that I am... By

definition, a Christian, because I grew up in a Christian country. That

defines itself as a Christian country in the same way as we define

ourselves as Ada Mock is you. Whether I believe in a... -- a

democracy come whether I believe in a deity, I'm not sure, that's hard.

I do believe there is an overriding principle of love which we might as

well believe in because the alternative is despair. In that

sense, I would describe myself as a Christian. Talking of love, this is

a project of love for you. This means a lot to you? Yes, it has

evolved like that. It means a lot to me because it takes a lot of work. I

like the people I do it with and it's been a great success. I didn't

go, I am a Christian, I must tell the story of the Church of England.

A lot of vicars around the country relate to it. The vicar is not

detected as a buffoon, that is why it has gone down well. -- depicted.

It is a fallible man, but a good man trying to do the right thing. It's

not Shakespeare, if it was, we would call it a problem play. It is funny

and then it gets dark and serious, then it gets funny again. It is a

drama comedy, as they say. The papers are reporting the former

Archbishop of Canterbury saying that Britain is not a Christian country.

People go to church, surrounded by wonderful churches, a lot of them

are falling down. What is your feeling about the condition of

Christianity in the country? One of the reasons... What they did have a

strong feeling about with Rev is that I wanted to detect one of our

institutions that is moth-eaten and degraded from what it once was. In

some ways, a metaphor for the country as a whole, the old

institutions. Obviously it is a very vibrant country with exciting things

happening in it. Very few people vote, but we still describe

ourselves as a democracy. These are old ways that we think of ourselves,

in transition and becoming something else. With hanging onto? The fact

that people don't go to church does not mean we are not a Christian

society, we are because the Queen is the head of state, the Church of

England. We just had an Easter holiday, we got Monday off because

Christ died. We celebrate Christmas. Our law is based on rusty and

morality. We are all aspiring to the Ten Commandments, to be nice, to

give to charity, to love our neighbours, ourselves, all of those

principles are Christian principles. So we are a Christian society? I

think we are, until somebody comes up with a better idea. This is

getting better and better, is there going to be a fourth series? We'll

see. Maybe. All right. Let's turn to Dylan Thomas. I would like people to

see a little clip of you. This is you reading one of his great poems.

Now as I was young and easy, under the apple boughs, about the lilting

house and happy as the grass was green, the night above the dingle

starry, time let me hail and climb. Golden in the heydays of his eyes,

and honoured among wagons, I was prince of the apple towns. And once

below a time I lordly had the trees and leaves trail with daisies and

barley, down the rivers of the windfall light. The lovely thing

about this play is that you do a lot of poetry in it. You don't forget he

was a poet at all. This was about the last few weeks of his life, when

he is destroying himself with drink and misbehaviour of different kinds.

Do you think in the end, the myth of Dylan, the alcoholic young guy who

destroys himself, that is the most important thing about him? No, I

think, ultimately, the most important thing about him has to be

his poetry, which is very beautiful. He is a particular favourite of

yours? I wanted to play the part, what I was drawn to was the idea of

a man who lives at such extremity and destroys himself. That is very

compelling. This is a life, possibly, without redemption. There

is redemption in his work. There was no happy ending for Dylan Thomas. Is

this partly because he never grew up? A lot of the film flashes back

to his childhood. Some of this beautiful stuff that he writes is

about the loss of childhood. This is a man who cannot CB and his youth.

He cannot see his way into middle age. -- see beyond his youth. He

commits a sort of slow suicide. He is also the beginning of rock and

roll, a principle that my generation, the generation before

me, which has become very attractive in the modern age. You live with

such extremity, unrestricted. John Lennon, you know, Bob Dylan, Dylan

Thomas. The force that through the green fuse drives the flower, drives

my green age, that blasts the roots of trees is my destroyer. The thing

that drives you forward to live is also killing you. There has been a

lot of comment about how you've changed physically. You had to bulk

up. I'm more interested in the voice. You don't sound very Welsh,

but it turns out that nor did Ellen Thomas. That was the relief when I

was offered the part, he sounded BBC English. With a little bit of Welsh.

I think when we think of Dylan Thomas, we think of Richard Burton

and assume he sounded like him? Less butch, more fruity. You don't spare

his reputation, in the sense that he behaved very vision -- viciously,

particularly to his agent and why? We don't see him behaving viciously

to his wife. He is a man that is unwell. This is a man that is

pre-Priory. He is an alcoholic in the last stages of his addiction and

he is destroying himself. The person he is least kind to is himself. One

of your earliest great roles, which very few people saw, where a young

Nick Clegg took part as well, how good an actor is he? You have to be

quite a good actor to be in politics, don't you? Probably.

Everyone saw how good Tony Blair was on the Catherine Tate show, it was a

great revelation. I think he had done a very good production of The

Normal Heart Of, when we were there. We were in Bergerac together, but I

don't remember, really. I was just trying to remember my lines. Do you

still keep in touch at all? We share a goddaughter we occasionally see

each other at her mother's parties. Thank you for joining us.

David Cameron said he could sum up his priority for government in three

letters, NHS. At a time of unprecedented austerity, the Health

Service budget has been protected. And yet, the demands on the system,

and the expectations of patients, keep rising. Big decisions lie

ahead. Should health continue to be favoured, at the expense of other

departments? Or, if we value the NHS so much - and it's been called a

national religion - should we be prepared to pay more for it, through

taxes or charges, perhaps, to see the GP? The Health Secretary Jeremy

Hunt is with me now. I have great ambitions for this interview, I hope

we don't have one of those conversations where I save the NHS

is terrible and you disagree and we are like ships meeting in the night.

There are some fantastic things in the NHS and some very profound

problems, and my job is to lead the NHS in tackling those problems.

Money is one of those big ones which I'm sure you want to ask me about.

All the way through its history it has enjoyed way above inflation real

term increases year after year, and the last few years you have in

effect frozen the increases. The roof has not fallen in but there are

a lot of cracks in the system, and my big question is for how long can

we carry on with an ageing population and more treatments

coming in? It cannot go on like this, can it? One of the reasons the

roof has not fallen in is because of the incredibly hard work of the

staff on the front line. People in hospitals and GP surgeries are

working very, very hard. But you're right, money is very tight and

although the budget was protected and we were only able to protect

that budget because we took some very difficult decisions on the

economy, which means we are able to continue and slightly increase the

NHS budget, but even despite that we are having to take very difficult

decisions because of the ageing population, demand growing around 4%

every year, and that's why it's necessary to have painful and

difficult reforms. One of the big issues is social care, we have a

completely broken backed system. We have one set of people mostly from

local government looking after social care, and the NHS looking

after healthcare, and they are bleeding into each other. Isn't the

Labour Party right that they have to be brought together under a single

umbrella? He is right, but the differences the Labour Party didn't

do that when they were in power. Moving away from the party politics

for a moment, the big reform that we need in the NHS if it is going to be

sustainable in coming years is to transform out-of-hospital care. The

NHS model, and I think you saw this when you had your stroke, I don't

know if we are allowed to talk about Jonathan Ross on the BBC but I saw a

very moving interview you gave to him when you talked about how

fantastic the hospital care was, but how disappointing... It is a money

issue, we need lots of neuro physiotherapy, and it does come back

to money. Yes, but it is also false economy not to invest in

out-of-hospital care because if we don't help to keep people healthy

and happy, that will cost even more money. When you have people with

long-term conditions, people recovering from strokes, a quarter

of the population now has a long-term condition like asthma or

rheumatism, dementia... And in lots of parts of the country the system

is close to collapse. Isn't what you have done is take money to plug the

gap in social care? I'm talking about something more radical, the

two being run together? We have had some very ambitious plans coming

forward and there are some basic things the public want to know will

happen. One of them is, if you have a mum or a grandad who is not well,

living at home, perhaps on their own, but with one or two long-term

conditions, I think you want to know there is someone in the NHS who is

taking responsibility for that person. That's why at the heart of

the changes I would like to see is a transformation in the role of GPs.

They take authority? Yes, using the benefits of modern technology we

move from a model of essentially reactive care, where GPs see people

coming through their door, to a proactive model where they question

how people are doing. The head of the Royal College of GPs has said it

is under the threat of extinction. Yes, but she has welcomed our plan

with GPs. This is a pilot project, isn't it? No, it is a large chunk of

surgeries and they are experimenting with what you can do with longer

opening hours and new technology, but separate from that we have

announced that all GPs from this April, everyone aged 75 and over has

to have a named GP, which was abolished by the last government in

2004, and that has been widely recognised as a mistake. We need to

go back to that sense of responsibility which I think is what

makes many people want to become a GP. What was she reporting back that

was wrong? She was saying that GPs are under a huge amount of pressure,

and she was right. We will not succeed by asking GPs to work longer

hours. We need to look at the systems and we need to look at

whether there are smarter ways of doing these things, and I think one

of them is restoring that sense of responsibility. I have got rid of

40% of the targets that GPs have to deal with everyday. I said in

exchange for losing those targets, can we go back to the sense of

responsibility starting with the elderly patients. I think you spent

?50 million and that was just for one year, will that be extended

across the country? We will have to see. The reason for that pilot

scheme was to see if the modern technology saves work or creates

work. I am not going to persuade doctors by telling them that, we

need to look at the evidence. We have had a very expensive cancer

drug, which NICE have said cannot be used routinely. Our we at the stage

now where life extending technology is too expensive for the NHS? And

how do you make those decisions? They are impossible decisions and

your heart goes out to anybody who has breast cancer, and this is a

very precious few final months of their lives, and that's why we

decided by independent scientists at arms length from government. We do

have a cancer drugs fund, which was helped 44,000 people. It was set up

by David Cameron and has been a huge success. No care system in the world

can afford to have an open cheque-book, and if we are going to

be able to carry on affording new drugs, we had to ask ourselves

whether we spend the budget wisely. Doctors and nurses tell me we spend

too much on top-heavy management, which is why we got rid of the

primary care trusts, and also that the hospitals paid too much for some

of the basic products and services, that drives them mad, so today we

are announcing a big new scheme on NHS procurement. This conversation

has not surprisingly been dominated by money, and I come back to this

question, with the elderly population, the new drugs and

technologies, something has to give. I wonder what you think, looking

ahead, after the next election, tough, radical decisions will have

to be taken and I wonder whether they will involve something like

putting an extra 1% on national insurance, like a National Health

Service tax, or the more wealthy people, should they be charged for

food in hospital? Those decisions are lying ahead, aren't they? The

basic principle is the NHS stands for an non-negotiable. We want a

service that is free at the point of use, therefore everybody. No

charges? No charges, and the NHS remains the single reason we are

most proud to be British, and I think the reason for that is that we

are proud of the values it stands for. Before we start saying we want

to ask people to spend more of their taxes, we have two ask whether we

are spending the budget as wisely as we could. There is one final point,

the cost of poor care. Let's not forget we had tragedies like at Mid

Staffordshire, and because we didn't do enough quickly enough to sort out

those problems, we spend more than ?1 billion every year on litigation

claims. Are you carrying on the fight for the ring fencing of the

budget for the NHS, or like Liam Fox do you think we should give it up?

We have shown our instincts on that by continuing to protect the NHS

budget into the next financial year, which goes beyond... I think David

Cameron and George Osborne are passionate about making sure the NHS

continues to deliver for the British people. Can I move on to UKIP,

another big story of the day. They are shooting up the polls, way ahead

of you in the European election polls. Are we going to see a change

in policy? The tougher attitude towards Europe and so forth in

response to their success? I think we have to engage with UKIP and the

British public on the argument. I think there are basically two

reasons why people consider voting for a UKIP, one of them is Europe

and one of them is a protest vote against the main parties. On Europe

we have a choice, we have a Prime Minister with a plan. He has said he

will give the British people a referendum, he will renegotiate the

terms of our membership, and he has a track record. He has vetoed a

European treaty... The alternative, UKIP, if they do well, the only

thing that happens then is Ed Miliband in Downing Street and he

doesn't believe in any of those things. A lot of UKIP voters will

say we have to push them, and the best way to do that is with a

sharpened stick called UKIP. That is part of the attraction of a protest

vote, but the reason people want to vote that way is because they are

angry. They are right to be angry, we have just had the worst recession

since the Second World War, but if you are angry vote for the party

that will change things the most. The Conservative party has turned

around the economy, Iain Duncan Smith is tackling the welfare state,

Michael Gove is transforming standards in schools. And you are

going to get Boris back in the House of Commons to lead you! I think the

British people understand Rome was not built in the day and we will get

there but we have to have patience. Now over to Sian for the news

headlines. Ukraine's Ambassador in London has said that the OSCE should

'flood' the country with observers, despite the kidnapping of members of

an OSCE mission in eastern Ukraine last Friday. He said his government

still wanted to 'give peace a chance' and explore all

possibilities, for a diplomatic resolution to the stand off with

Russia. But he said that if Russia launched an invasion, he was

confident Ukrainian forces would fight back. Back to Andrew in a

moment. First, a look at what's coming up immediately after this

programme. Does John Paul II deserves sainthood? See you at ten

o'clock on BBC One. Thanks to all my guests. Next week,

I'll be talking to the Labour leader Ed Miliband, to UKIP's Nigel Farage,

and to the distinguished actress Fiona Shaw. You can see that Dylan

Thomas drama on BBC Two next month, the 18th of May. In the meantime,

until next Sunday, a very good morning to you. Goodbye.