04/05/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning to you. There's a fashionable new economist called

Thomas Piketty, and according to him the West's in the same position as

before the First World War, when the top 1% of rich people accounted for

a fifth of total incomes. Of course a century ago, everything was

different. Liberals in government had become very unpopular, there was

much talk of the break-up of the UK, and nationalist feuds in eastern

edge Europe were about to provoke a world war. So nothing like now!

Well, today's papers are crammed with stories, the most interesting

for weeks. Joining me today to review them, the director of

Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti, and the editor of The Spectator, Fraser

Nelson. Today's show will be dominated by two big hitters with

the European and local-election campaigns revving up ahead of voting

on 22nd May. Labour's hoping to build on recent opinion polls which

put them narrowly ahead of the Conservatives. The Labour leader, Ed

Miliband will be here later. On Europe, he has said he wouldn't

propose an immediate in-out referendum on the European Union if

his party regains power in 2015. So how does he respond to David

Cameron's charge that the Tories are the only party guaranteeing change

in the Britain's relationship with the EU? Getting out of the European

Union is, of course, at the top of Nigel Farage's wish list. The UKIP

leader will be here later to discuss his mission to, as he puts it, take

back control and why he's been calling some of his own members

idiots. I'll also be joined by the Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood, to

discuss her party's prospects in Europe. Fiona Shaw is one of the

world's greatest actors. Her extraordinary one-woman show, The

Testament Of Mary, sparked protests on Broadway. It's just opened in

London, and she's here to talk about Christ, crucifixions and

controversy. Plus, we have some deeply funky soul music.

The sound of the summer! Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings live later.

First, the news with Naga Munchetty. Andrew, thank you. Good morning.

There's been further fighting in eastern Ukraine as the authorities

in Kiev try to reassert control. Demonstrators smashed their way into

a government building in Donetsk in retaliation for the deaths of dozens

of people on Friday when petrol bombs were thrown at pro-Russian

activists in a trade union building in Odessa. Clashes have also taken

place in the cities of Sloviansk and Kramatorsk.

The Archbishop of Canterbury has defended the Church of England's

role in educating children. Justin Welby has insisted that although

relatively few people go to church, Anglican schools are popular. Almost

a million pupils currently attend Church of England schools.

It is an expression of a love and service to the community. People

choose the schools in large numbers, often in the poorest part

of the country, and we seek to love and serve people through these

schools, and we have done for hundreds of years. And I think

that's a very good expression of social capital.

The government in Afghanistan has declared a day of national mourning

after at least 350 people died in two landslides in the north east of

the country. 2,500 people are still missing in the village of Badakshan,

but rescuers have now given up the search for survivors. Aid, including

tents, food and water, has started to arrive for those who have lost

their homes. A source close to Gerry Adams has

told the BBC that the Sinn Fein leader is being questioned for up to

17 hours a day by detectives investigating the murder of Jean

McConville in 1972. Mr Adams, who's spent his fourth night in police

custody, denies any involvement in the death of Mrs McConville. The

widow and mother of ten was abducted and shot by the IRA.

Ed Miliband is being urged to renationalise the rail network if

Labour forms the next government. 31 of his party's parliamentary

candidates have written to the Observer newspaper saying it would

improve services and control fares. Labour is currently reviewing all

its policies ahead of the general election.

That's all from me for now. I'll be back with the headlines just before

ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew. Many thanks, Naga, more on that

story later. We hear a lot about the Scottish Nationalists, but what

about the Welsh ones? Plaid Cymru says it's the only party that can

further the Welsh national interest at the heart of Europe and has urged

voters to reject damaging Europhobia in this month's European election.

However, low turn-out, plus the threat of UKIP, might cost Plaid its

only European seat. I'm joined now from Cardiff by the Plaid leader,

Leanne Wood. Good morning and welcome to you. Good morning,

Andrew. You are the only Plaid leader not to speak Welsh when you

got into the job, I take the lessons are going well! I am a Welsh

learner, but you are right to say that I am the first leader of Plaid

Cymru to not be a first language Welsh speaker, but our party is an

inclusive party, and we speak to everybody who lives in Wales.

Obviously, the language is important, but so is every single

citizen in the country. We will be talking about the push for Scottish

independence in the papers, it is all over the place. Why has there

been so little bleed of that emotion into Welsh politics? They are on a

roll, but you not so much. Well, the devolution journeys in our two

countries are at very different stages. When Scotland started out as

80 volt nation, they already had an independent legal service, an

independent education service. -- as a deep old nation. I am confident we

will gain strength in terms of our economic position, that our

dependency will reduce overtime and that in the future we in Wales will

be able to put the question to the people of Wales as to where we want

our future July. You think you will see an independent Wales in your

lifetime? -- our future to life. There is support formal

independence, so I do. We have a more independent health service that

has avoided the privatisation agenda, so there is demand and

support for greater autonomy all the time, and that is growing, and I

think in the future it will grow more. You have singled out UKIP as

one of the big threats, is it possible they will help lose you

your only sit in the European Parliament, and if so, how big a

blow would that be for Plaid at this stage? Well, at this election, the

people of Wales based two futures. One where they are dragged out of

Europe by a divisive and ugly politics as espoused by UKIP. Or one

where we can continue at international co-operation on issues

like climate change, banking regulation, tax avoidance, and our

MEP has worked very hard on making sure those issues are at the heart

of the politics of the European Union, and the Welsh voice in that.

And there is a very dangerous future for Wales if it opts for the likes

of UKIP. So many jobs in Wales depend on us remaining as a partner

of the UK, and that is very much where Plaid Cymru sees us in the

future. The front pages, the Independent has rightly picked on

the Ukrainian story, and they quote Vladimir Putin saying, Ukraine is

beyond our control - we wonder for how long. Ed Miliband, we will force

you to get fit, he wants higher alcohol prices and is after your

bowl of Crosskeys, so watch out! -- Frosties. The Observer, bring rail

under state control, we will talk about that later. And finally, the

Sunday Telegraph saying that the victims of the IRA deserve pay-outs.

It says David Cameron is trying to persuade Libya to help fund pay-outs

to the victims of IRA attacks in the past. As promised, our wonderful

paper reviews, Shami Chakrabarti and Fraser Nelson, we are starting with

Ukraine. Yes, the independent on Sunday, a bold decision to put this

on its cover. The West has decided it cannot do much about Ukraine, but

that does not mean that it has gone away. They have a correspondent in

Kramatorsk saying it is getting worse and civil war is beginning to

break out. There is a map of the various forces here, not in

Ukraine's favour. The conflagrations we are getting are quite serious. In

Odessa yesterday, 40 people died in a burning building. You have got

booed in playing this very strange role where he is claiming he has got

nothing to do with the strange men. -- Putin. But it is quite clear what

is going on, as long as he cannot be directly paying for this, he can get

away pretty much with what he wants. The question is, does he want

control of all of this? Will we see Russian tanks going over the border

by next Sunday? The Sunday Times puts on a very good spread, and it

reminds me of the importance of war journalism at a time when it has not

always been as funded and invested in as it was in the past, lots of

great women wore journalists that I can recall. But of course, careful

what you wish for, Mr Putin, because it is all very well to want to have

this vision of the Ukraine as part of your empire, but with great power

comes great responsibility. It would be easy to be sucked into a long and

bloody conflict. And the Sunday Times is having a bit of a dig at

the EU for being too hesitant. Completely, it has been a disaster

giving the EU any remit in this. A bunch of countries which do not

always agree, and diplomatically it has been unable to take Ukraine into

an orbit of stability, and we are seeing one of many diplomatic

failures in which the EU is blamed. Duping the EU can be blamed for

making a grab for Ukraine? -- do you think there is no doubt that the

relationship with Ukraine has been botched. So many people in Britain,

we are in favour of expanding the EU influence, but the French do not

want it, and as a result of indecision we lose not just the

Ukraine but Turkey as well, that is looking increasingly eastwards. It

goes to show you cannot trust the EU commissar to give any direction, it

has to be countries talking to countries. I do not think it is EU,

SARS, it is a family of democratic nations seeking to influence, that

is never going to be as decisive as a gangster like Mr Putin. -- EU

commissars. They have aspirations to be like the United States, it does

not work. Gerry Adams is all over the papers again, he is still in

custody, the BBC has been told 17 hours a day, what does this do to

Northern Ireland? Let's be sensible about this, he is entitled to their

process, like everyone else, but I reflect on, you know, not that long

ago I thought I would never see peace in Northern Ireland. Maybe it

is the ageing process, but I can remember quite vividly, even as a

student, moments when I taught I would never see the end of apartheid

in South Africa, or peace in Northern Ireland, and then it came.

And I just hope that some of the people who are understandably still

very upset about some of the terrible things that happened in the

Troubles, but also people who are very upset about this timing, the

timing of this arrest and so on, just reflect on what there is to

lose. There is always a tension in post-conflict situations between,

you know, the hunger to get to truth and justice, but also a tension

between peace building for the future and that. We are as sensitive

to that as anyone else, so I hope that people remember what there is

to lose. I promise to domestic politics, there is more now, a

striking front page. I am not sure how long this is going to be

domestic, but Scotland, the Sunday Herald has become the first Scottish

newspaper to come out for a yes vote in the referendum. This is quite

significant, because none of the Scottish press have done this so

far. The Sunday Herald has been edging towards this position, this

rather striking cover designed by Alistair Gray. You cannot really see

it, a Scottish lion playing the bagpipes. It almost tempts a

unionist like me to think there might be something in this! It is

significant because this debate is far closer than we thought even a

year ago, and I doubt the Sunday Herald would be the last paper to go

yes. Newspapers tend to want to go with the zeitgeist, and if they

think there is a reasonable chance of a guess vote, they will jump in

ahead of this. The Scotsman and the Herald have been pretty unionist in

their approach so far. They have been, yes, although the Herald, you

would not think it would rule it out. It has got some very yes

campaign columnists. Of course, and the Sun was pro-independent, the

Scottish Sun, partly reflecting Rupert Murdoch's troublemaking

instincts, but it is a big moment. You were saying something earlier

about how it would reflect on David Cameron's position if there were a

yes vote. Yes, he would really have to resign. David Cameron may think,

I can still hang onto my job, but others will say he has got to go.

There are so many great stories others will say he has got to go.

today. The debate between David Cameron and Nigel Farage. Finally we

seem to be in a place where David Cameron says he will debate against

Nigel Farage. I gather Number Ten has already said it is not exactly

like that. How do you deal with a problem like Nigel? I am worried

about where this pushes the other parties. I'm worried about people

going to the right on things like immigration, really nasty

immigration bill going through Parliament which would allow people

to be made British nationals with no other nationalities, they could be

made stateless. We are going to come onto this later on so we will keep

pushing ahead. There is an interesting poll, quoting you saying

you expect Ed Miliband to be the next Prime Minister. Yes, one point

is all Labour needs to win the next election. It is fairly balanced

right now but I would still say, personally, it is pointing towards

an edit -- Ed Miliband victory. You don't have to think that Ed Miliband

is a genius but Lib Dem supporters... Left has been reunited

under Ed Miliband so it is his election to lose. Some of the papers

are telling us what that might mean. Speaking of Ed Miliband, we have

this leaked Labour document? Yes, they will force you to be fitter,

apparently. It depends how you interpret things. It fits a theme.

Ed Miliband is ambitious about what the Government can tell people who

don't work for the Government what to do, tell supermarkets were to

display alcohol and tell cereal companies whether we should sell

Frosties or not but his approach is far more interventionist. We have

this debate about the railways, and some papers obviously linked the

possibility of taking the railways back under central state control to

the whole Ed Miliband agenda but it seems to me that you don't have to

be desperately left wing to be really concerned about the railways

and how privatisation hasn't worked. I seem to recall David

Cameron apologising for the privatisation of railways just a

couple of years ago. I would like to talk a little bit about the cancer

drug story. I have a feel-good cancer story. Like everyone, I have

lost dear friends to cancer. This is in the Sunday express. It is about a

famous musician, Wilco Johnson, used to be in Doctor feel-good back in

the 1970s. He was given ten months to live, thought he had inoperable

cancer but a chance meeting with a friend and an amateur photographer

got him a second opinion, he has just had surgery and he is going to

live. He said that if he was given a 100% chance of dying, which makes

you think we have the assisted dying legislation coming up in the House

of Commons. We all have a 100% chance. We are all going to die but

this is a positive story. The idea that we should bring back in this

country a suggestion that you should basically ended is... Crammed

newspapers, thank you both for that. A sunny and blue-skied start to the

Bank Holiday weekend yesterday. Temperatures quite high too, as high

as our expectations for the weather for the rest of the break. Over to

John Hammond. as our expectations for the weather

for the rest of the It looks like I am going to have to manage those

expectations because some will be enjoying sunshine, but it will be

staying cloudy with drips and drops of rain around for Northern England

and Scotland. Generally cloudy further north and quite cool.

Southern areas in the sunshine, very nice with light winds. Fast forward

to tomorrow, lots of sunshine to start the bank holiday across much

of the country. Rain pushing in across Northern Ireland, then

onwards into many western parts of the mainland as we go through the

day with strengthening wind. In the sunshine, up to 19, possibly 20

degrees in the south-east on bank holiday Monday. There will be some

showery rain across western parts of the UK, but the best of the sunshine

across the UK will be in the eastern parts of the country.

He's been widely abused, egged and ridiculed, but Nigel Farage's

insurrection against mainstream politics hasn't faltered. But there

seem to be plenty of bad apples in the garden of England, and tough

choices ahead for UKIP's saloon bar revolutionary. Mr Farage joins me

now. Do you think women should be banned from wearing trousers? No. Do

you think, sexuality is an abomination against God? If we are

going to go through the loopy comments of people connected to

UKIP, that's fine but we should do that with the other political

parties as well. A handful of people who say Batty, idiotic and sometimes

offensive things are held up as if they represent the view of UKIP as a

party and it is wrong on it is disproportionate. Ed Miliband is on

today, I wonder why you will -- if you will ask him why he has BMP

defectors in his party. Everybody standing for UKIP knows the media

spotlight is on them, and yet time and time again it is made very easy.

You say it is a mainstream plot, but it is made very easy for the

mainstream because so many people are saying offensive things. We have

made mistakes. We are non-racist, nonsectarian party. Despite the fact

that to be a candidate you have to go to a much higher level of

declaration, some people have got through and we should have weeded

them out. When you look at the fact we have 2500 standing and a handful

causes embarrassment, when you look at the parties, there was a Liberal

Democrat the other week convicted racially aggravated assault and that

doesn't make the national news. I'm not saying we have been perfect, but

these people are not representative of UKIP. Are you concerned there is

something in the way UKIP has presented itself which attracts such

people? No, because they join every party. Nine Labour councillors left

the group in Harrow last year over accusations of racism. There was a

Conservative official in Essex last year forced to resign over

Islamophobic comments. Not only am I adamant we are non-racist party,

this week I will fight back against it. You will see our election

address for the local elections this year, and you will see a lot of

black, ethnic minority candidates proudly standing for UKIP. Let me

ask you about something you said in an interview with the Guardian, you

said people should be worried if Romanians moved into the same street

as them. The question was, if a whole load of Romanian men moved in

next door, would you be concerned? You would, perhaps, yes, because you

know that what has happened is that we have opened up the doors to

countries that have not recovered from communism and it has become a

gateway for organised crime. Most Romanian people are presumably

law-abiding, God-fearing, hard-working people like most Polish

people who have come here and so on. We decide to choose not just the

quantity of people that come but the quality of people as well, any

normal country would do that. We had 4 million people come in under the

last figures during the Labour government, what happens if 4

million more people come in? It becomes a more divided society. I

see anger amongst young people who find it more difficult to get jobs.

We also have divided communities. We are not against immigration, we want

good, positive immigration but let's do it the way the Australians do

it. Let's have a points system, that tough people who have skills and who

want to integrate into society and tough people who have skills and who

will be of benefit to us. What is not being discussed is the

will be of benefit to us. What is we have open door and people can

come regardless whether they have good things to bring or not. You say

that any racism in your party will be blown away forever? Yes, I

believe in treating people equally. To see what is being written every

day, describing my party is racist and homophobic, we will face that

had on this week. Are there things in the party's rule book you need to

change for that? No, the rule book is very clear. We have got rules to

prevent that, sometimes people don't quite tell us the truth and yes, we

need to put more resources and money into making sure this cannot happen

again. No other party leader has had to describe some of his members as

idiots. No other party leader is taking on the establishment. We have

three party leaders who have signed us up to it union in Europe. I am

taking on the establishment and they are fighting back. David Cameron

described you as chicken for not standing in the next election. Will

you be standing? I thought about Newark and realised I cannot go

there because I am busy touring Britain. I want UKIP to win the

European elections this year, we will talk about the general election

afterwards. You wanted to push the Conservatives into offering a

referendum, which they have, how close are you to doing the same

thing to the Labour Party? I was out yesterday in Kent, canvassing a

solid Labour vote area and we are digging deep into that. If UKIP beat

Labour in those elections, I believe it will change Ed Miliband's

position on the referendum. Can I talk about your own position because

you have been criticised heavily for taking so much money from the EU,

which is not audited. One of your posters had some guy sprawled on the

back of a limousine, and this could be your celebrity lifestyle. We

don't want that, we want to end all of this. But you have gone right up

to the end of the rules in claiming your expenses. We get a fixed rate

allowance to spend as we see fit and I have chosen to spend it on

fighting and campaigning to get Britain out of the European Union. I

know that in Brussels they are not terribly happy about that but what I

have done is within the rules. How much money are we talking about? I

don't know, and last time I named a figure I was accused of taking

millions. I think the answer is to vote for MEPs who would like to vote

the thing down and not waste money. We simply did not have people who

work the right calibre, we'd be selected people, we have been pretty

ruthless. UKIP has changed a very great deal. As a gardener, you spend

more time weeding than growing. We have been leading the opinion polls

for seven or eight days, not a bad place to be. Do you think, after

this, because we have had European elections in the past were hearties

came shooting up and then disappear -- where parties came shooting up

and then disappeared, do you think there is a nascent UKIP group in

Parliament which... There are some on the left of the Labour Party who

would agree with us on many issues, the question of who governs this

country. After the last European election, I was told, well done,

Nigel, you have come second, but you will never repeat it in domestic

politics. Last year, in the county elections, we got nearly a quarter

of the vote. In all the last by-elections, we have come second.

We have not yet got over the line, but we are getting closer. Can I put

TV situation of a Conservative Member of Parliament in favour of a

referendum? -- can I put to you the situation. Would you actually stand

against that? Five years ago we sat here and discussed the European

elections, and you put it to me that Mr Cameron said, vote conservative,

because there was a cast iron guarantee... You cannot hold me

responsible for him! We have heard the promises from him before. So

somebody like build cash, would you stand against him? Build cash is

more part of the problem than the solution. -- Bill Cash. He has

droned on for years, but we are saying, free from the EU, we will

get our democracy back, our pride, and we will become globally engaged.

For now, thank you for joining us. Plenty of debate last week about

whether we have ended a post-Christian era. Timely that a

new play has opened in London about the death and legacy of a man whose

story is very similar to that of Christ, The Testament Of Mary is a

monologue directed by Deborah Warner and starring Fiona Shaw. She plays

Mary, a bereaved mother reflecting on her charismatic and controversial

sun who was crucified. It is an intense, abs all the drama which was

the toast of Broadway but also because of protests. -- absorbing.

Fiona Shaw will be telling me more about it in a moment, but first a

clip. Martha looked in the direction of the room where her brother lay.

My sister was right, she said. We are coming to the end of the world,

or rather the world as we have no need is coming to an end. You must

go to Jerusalem. And the Testament of Mary is at the Barbican Theatre

in London for the next three weeks. So it is an extraordinary play, it

is absolutely riveting and wrenching and so forth, but there is something

odd about it, because it is clearly Mary, mother of Jesus, and yet the

words Jesus is never mentioned, and there is a certain coyness about

that. Well, it is fiction, you know, so it is not pretending to be

theology. I suppose Mary, the mother of Jesus, was probably called some

name, a nameless woman, and in a way the play is about Everywoman. Mary

never speaks in the New Testament. No, she speaks twice. I think she

speaks a little bit at the feast of Cana, but that is it. Not very

much! This seems like a fifth Gospel, the Gospel of Mary, is that

how you see it? If it were, it would be making claims do its truth,

fiction is fiction, but it reveals truth, and I think it has been great

to feel the audience excitement about the experience of this woman

observing her son leaving home, like a lot of late adolescent boys, not

getting in touch with his mother rematch. And she is not impressed

with the disciples at all. No! I think Colm Toibin must have had a

feeling that people are massaging the facts to make the icon happen,

but she is not bound. You appeared with a live mulcher, is it really a

live vulture? I was comforted by the fact that they only eat dead meat.

It represents the death aspect of the whole piece. You were brought up

as a good Catholic Bill, how did you react to American Christians

protesting against the apparent blasphemy? -- girl it is a secular

play about an ordinary woman who is very forthright, who believes that

her son should just be steady. And in America there were people

protesting in the streets, and it was quite frightening. We are just

going to see a little clip of that so you can talk about it more. My

son came back to life. It was dawn. We dreamt we were sleeping. There

were some olive trees in the distance but nothing close by and

there was no sound. And then I saw him. He was rising with the water,

and his hands, his feet, his forehead, where the thorns had been,

there were blue marks, open and gaping.

And then you sit down and you look exactly like Michelangelo's statue

of the virgin with Christ across her lap. How do you hold an audience for

90 minutes just by yourself, nobody else on stage, just you and your

voice? How do you set about trying to grip an audience for that period

of time? Well, in this instance, the story is in the audience's had

already, and I think it is a game between the story that think they

know, or do know in their head, and the slight divergences of the play,

which keeps on just nudging the Christian theology, or adding huge

detail, so the description of the crucifixion is very near what must

have happened in any crucifixion. But you hear the woman speak it and

say, this is what happened to my son. You would have been brought up

with images of Mary around you, have you always wanted to drill deeper

into the story? Well, she was rather silent, as you described, she did

not play hockey or tennis or go swimming, so she was a very

difficult icon for a young person to see any future in. She was seen as

dignified, quiet and accepting, and I think the effect of that on 2000

years of history hasn't been great. It is a wonderful play, good luck

for the rest of the run, thank you for coming in.

Ed Miliband has been warned - UKIP is coming for you in the heartlands.

Nigel Farage believes he can do just as much damage to the Labour Party

in northern cities and towns as to the Conservatives in their shires,

and he has made no secret of his strategy to hoover up support from

those who feel left behind by globalisation, immigration and the

race for the middle-class vote. So what is Labour's answer? Ed

Miliband, thank you for coming in. Two things that the classic UKIP

voter is worried about, immigration and the fact that British people

have not had a say over the EU for so long, and there is no reason to

vote Labour on either of these. I think the biggest thing that people

are worried about is the cost of living crisis that we have in our

country. That is what I find when I go out and about. That is not what

voters say. There is a deep sense of discontent, because people believe

this country is run for a few at the top and they are not getting a fair

chance or a fair shot, they have seen their wages decline, they worry

about their sons and daughters, whether they will have opportunities

in the future. This is a generational challenge that we face.

In this election and the general election, we have the right answers,

not any of the other parties, and I relish the debate. Coming back to

the EU issue, you will not offer the British people a referendum. Our

position is clear, which is to say that if there is a transfer of

powers from Britain to the European Union, there will be an in-out

referendum under a Labour government. That is a clear

promise. The direction of travel we want for Europe is not an ever

closer union but some powers coming back. We have made that clear, but

it is true to say that when I think about the priorities for me as Prime

Minister, it is the cost of living crisis, the NHS, not debating

whether we should exit the union. I have got to tell the country how I

want to govern the country and what my priorities are, and I am laying

them out clearly. These are European elections, you will not offer a

referendum in any likely foreseeable circumstance - it is unlikely these

powers would be pushed back. On the question of EU form, you say you

want that, but precisely what? It is unlikely but remains possible,

because we know there is uncertainty about what will happen in the

European Union. On reform of the EU, we want to see change, because

it is not working as well as it should. Economic change, reform of

the budget, change on issues around immigration, longer transitional

controls for new countries coming in, and most importantly of all,

what we are saying about Europe is consistent with what we are saying

about the country as a whole - let's make Europe work better to tackle

the cost of living crisis. People still find they are working next to

an agency worker, rules set in Europe, and their cost of living,

their wages and conditions are being undermined. We have to make sure we

don't have a race to the bottom between workers coming here and work

is already here. That requires their rules in the labour market, and it

is Labour that has been challenging this agenda while the other parties

have been silent. When it comes to immigration, 4 million people

according to the latest figures came to settle in Britain under the last

Labour governance - too many? We have made mistakes and immigration

many times -- we have made mistakes on immigration, I have said that

many times. We have changed our position, including transitional

controls. Immigration has different effects, it is positive overall, but

it bears particularly on people who are low paid, who are seeing their

communities change. That is why we want managed migration, tough border

controls, and crucially stopping this undercutting of wages, doing

everything we can... Let's take an example - employers who are failing

to pay the minimum wage. There are hardly any prosecutions of that in

this country. Often it is migrant workers being exploited, so it is

bad for them, and workers here are being undercut. That is why I have

changed our position. On benefits, we do not think we should be paying

child benefit and child tax credits if peoples children are not here. It

has been suggested that people should not have any entitlement to

benefits for five years after coming into Britain. We have said we would

lengthen the amount of time before people can get access to jobseeker's

allowance to at least six months, consistent with the rules. I want to

see change in Europe, but I also say this to you, Andrew - leaving the

European Union, as Nigel Farage wants, as David Cameron is flirting

with, would be a disaster for our country. Millions of jobs we rely on

are linked to our membership of the EU, any multinational firm will tell

you it is the last thing we need, and that is why I believe David

Cameron is a huge threat to the prosperity of this country, because

he has an agenda on Europe. He can't tell us what he is negotiating for,

he has no support among European allies, and he would need unanimity

for any changes, and he can't even tell us whether he would vote yes or

no in a referendum that he claims he wants to see. Would you return the

railways to public ownership under a Labour government? We are looking at

all the options, we are not going to go back to old-style British Rail,

but let me make this point - we have to be pragmatic, and we've got to

recognise that the system at the moment has flaws in it. We are

paying high fares, passengers are paying high fares in this country,

and we are paying big subsidies. We have got examples, for example, with

East Coast, which is in public hands, and the Government is

dogmatically privatising it. I want to see value for money for the

taxpayer, I will never write a blank check and go back to the past, but

we are looking at different options. John Prescott has suggested that,

for instance, as the owners of the 25 franchises, 19 coming up, you

said we take them back into public ownership quietly rather than

auctioning them. There is a balance to be struck, there are benefits you

can have from competition, and we are not going back to the old

monolithic model of British Rail, but we need to look at how we can

have a coherent system. As David Cameron has admitted, the way that

privatisation was done didn't work, so we need to find a better system

for the future. After five years of Ed Miliband, would we find a

substantial part of the rail system in public ownership? You will have

to wait for the manifesto for that! The other great controversy, the

takeover of AstraZeneca by Pfizer. The Prime Minister wants Pfizer to

give guarantees but he is largely happy for that to happen. What is

your view? David Cameron has, cheerleader for

Pfizer's takeover, whereas he should be championing the jobs in this

country that AstraZeneca provide. David Cameron must get an

independent assessment of the impact this bid will have on the long-term

science and industrial base of the country because we are hearing some

very respected voices like Lord Sainsbury and Michael Heseltine

warning about the dangers of this takeover. Would you, could you stop

the takeover from happening? If I were Prime Minister, I would bring

in a public interest test. With all of the implications it has for the

science base, there has got to be an independent assessment for this in

the national interest. No other country would be nodding this

through on the basis of pretty weak assurances from Pfizer who have a

pretty dubious record when it comes to takeovers. Should you be getting

together with the Prime Minister to see what can be done? I am writing

to the Prime Minister, setting out plan for the future. I will be

saying that he should be actually championing British jobs and the

British success story which is AstraZeneca, a crucial part of our

science base. This is part of Labour's overall agenda, growing our

way towards the jobs our country needs. We have had your proposals on

energy prices, proposals on rent controls, on intervening in the

market in railways and in the chemical industry, can you see why a

lot of businesses are worried about you, that you are meddling statist?

No, markets need rules. What is interesting about this is that yes,

I am going to stand up for the generation that rents in this

country because our rental market does not work and it is exceptional

around the world, the short-term insecure nature of our rental

market. Six months what are -- I proposed on energy was

controversial, now even the energy companies and the regulator are

saying I was right. If people say Ed Miliband is in favour of more

regulations and higher taxes, here's an old-fashioned socialist, why are

you shaking your head? Old-fashioned socialism is not what I am about. I

am about how we make markets work properly in the public interest. In

British politics there are the defenders of broken markets with

vested interests, this Government, unable to take on the energy

companies and change things, and there is Labour, leading the way

with a bold agenda that says we are going to tackle the cost of living

crisis. We are going to change this country so that it works for most

ordinary families and that does require bold change, particularly

when there is less money around. That is what I represent. We have

the recovery happening at the moment, are you not a little bit

concerned that by the time of the next election this might not be in

front of their noses? People are telling me, my job is insecure, and

this is a big and deep problem. Also people are saying, is my son or

daughter going to have a better life than me? These are deep questions

about the country. And yet they are more trusted on the economy than

you, is that because you haven't yet convinced people you have a plan in

the next Parliament? We do have a plan, we have set very clear

commitments. We still don't know where you are going to court and how

you are going to plug the hole. We have made commitments that we will

run a surplus on the current budget and have the national debt falling.

We have set out some of those areas in our 0-based reviews, but these

are really important commitments from a Labour Party that recognises

there won't be a lot of money to spend in the next Parliament, but

that's why this economic reform agenda in banks, energy and skills

is so important because that is how we will grow our way to higher

standards of living for people. If the yes campaign when in Scotland,

should David Cameron resign? I am convinced and confident that the

Better Together campaign can win. If they don't? I'm not talking about

that. We have to win this referendum because this is an existential

question to the UK and I'm convinced we can deliver my gender across this

country, better for Scotland, better for the whole of the UK with

Scotland in the UK. There is a tube strike in London next week, do you

agree it should be made harder for these big public sector strikes? The

tube strike is wrong and shouldn't be going ahead. Both sides should be

sitting around the table. The Government have this rhetoric about

the strike, they should be pushing the mayor to the table, stopping

this strike going ahead. So you would be open for new rules? Let's

see what the Government comes forward with. Now over to Naga for

the news headlines. The leader of UKIP has told this programme his

party is on course for a breakthrough at Westminster despite

his decision not to stand in the new by-election. Nigel Farage said UKIP

are built on its performance in the last European elections when it came

second in the polls. Last year we got nearly a quarter of the vote. We

have come second in all of the last by-elections. We haven't yet got

over the line but we are getting closer. Ed Miliband is calling for

an independent review of Pfizer's takeover of AstraZeneca, and accused

the Prime Minister of acting as a cheerleader for the deal. He also

said the Labour Party would introduce a tougher test before such

takeovers could go ahead. That's all from me. The next news is on BBC One

at one o'clock. Back to Andrew in a moment. First, a look at what's

coming up immediately after this programme. We will have a special

edition from York, asking just one question, is it rational to believe

in God? See you at ten o'clock on BBC One.

Ed Miliband is still here, and we're joined once more by Nigel Farage. Do

you think tube workers should go to work next week? That is a matter for

them but I think the strike as a whole should not be going ahead and

both sides should get round a table to sort this out. Apparently David

Cameron is going to debate with you after all, are you delighted about

that? Until you read the small print. Very often David Cameron

makes these vague promises, then doesn't deliver. I don't think he's

got any intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps

Ed Miliband wants to debate with me? We have got to have the TV debates

as we did at the last election. David Cameron is doing everything he

can to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters who they invite.

My main desire is that the debates go ahead. The Prime Minister doesn't

own these debates, and he cannot wriggle out of them. Who will be the

three of four in the debates, couldn't we have lots of debates

between the leaders? Would you debate with Nigel Farage? Nick Clegg

debated with Nigel Farage, others can judge how well he got on. Let's

have a head-to-head. I am happy to debate about all the main issues we

face, but my main desire is to have general election debates. This is a

European election we are fighting in two weeks. We want a general

election debates and that is where my focus is. Frankly, we need to get

David Cameron to the debates. If the broadcasters want to invite Nigel,

that's fine with me. So if the broadcaster sets up a debate between

yourself and Nigel Farage? As part of overall general election debates.

Could you take him on and beat him in a debate, do you think? I do

think that, but the focus for me is the general election debates. From

what I can see, your party isn't even discussing the European

question. You don't want to have a referendum. Let's do it in the next

fortnight. We are talking about these issues, and you want to get

out of the European Union and I think that would cost jobs in this

country. You should also look at your issues on what you say. You

don't somehow think you are the heir to Margaret Thatcher on policy? The

one thing that happened during the 1980s that needs to happen again is

that the size of the state was reduced. We have got to reduce the

size of the state. Luck Nigel wants a flat tax, who once tax rises for

the poorest, bigger cuts in services. The debate has started,

this is a good thing. We will have more of that debate in due course!

That's it for this week. Next Sunday I'll be talking to David Cameron

plus the actress, Imelda Staunton. And right now, ending this show as

promised, Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings. The band played on the

hugely successful Amy Winehouse album Back To Black. They've just

arrived in Europe for a string of gigs, including Glastonbury and

London's Shepherds Bush Empire in June. Here they are with a track

from the album Give The People What They Want. This is 'We Get Along'.

# There's a child crying all by himself.

# His parents left him by the time he was 12.

# He feels all alone. # He don't want to live.

# He'll get along, I'm not often wrong.

# (We get along) # Through all of our lives.

# (We get along) # Through sorrows and strife.

# (We get along) # Through all of our lives.

# (We get along) # Through sorrows and strife.

# There's something' a brewin' up in the sky.

# We stuck inside with the candle light.

# But the sun is comin' with all of its might.

# I know, I know it'll be all right. its might.

# (Through darkness and its might.

# (Through sorrow and pain). # We prove again and again.

# (We get along). # Through all of our lives.

# (We get along) # Through sorrows and strife.

# (We get along). # Through all of our lives.

# (We get along). # Through sorrows and strife.

# As these wars keep rolling on. # All our young ones are fighting

strong. # Who's to know if it's right or

wrong. # I just know we got to get along.

# We got to (get up). # And come together.

# (Get up). # And come together.

# Don't you know we got to (get up). # And come together.

# (Get up). # And come together.

# (Get up). # Just come together.

# Don't you know we got to # (Get up).

# And come together. # Don't you know we got to (get up)

# And come together. # (Get up) # And come together.

# (Get up) # Just come together. # Don't you know we got to # (Get

up). # And come together.

It's shocking it'd happen in a public place.

I don't find it funny, but I don't find it offensive.

It really is vile. Shock value sells.

Men are even less tolerant of women than they were before.

The hatred of women. Some people are offended.