18/05/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Let's start with the good news. Britain is being run

superbly well. Our taxes are fair, our trains, hospitals and schools

are the best in the world, there are too many well-paid jobs to go

around. Well, what other explanation can there be for the fact that MPs

have just given themselves another three weeks holiday, because

apparently, there is nothing for them to do? Joining me today for our

review of the papers, the Parliamentary sketch writer for the

times, and our World Affairs Editor, Johnson sun, just back from Nigeria,

where he has been on the trail of Boko Haram. MPs have been out

canvassing because there are local elections this week in London, and

many other big cities and towns throughout England and Northern

Ireland, as well as the European elections. I have been speaking to

all the main party leaders ahead of these elections, and today it is

Nick Clegg. He is used to do dire predictions as to how his party will

get on, but why have the voters punished him since he led the league

gems into government, and is the downhill trajectory terminal? These

elections will be the last big test before the referendum in Scotland in

the autumn. Joining me to tackle that topic is the Deputy First

Minister Nicola Sturgeon. We might talk about whether the Scots can

heal the wounds after the vote. And frank, fearless and often very

funny, the writer Lynn Barber transformed the celebrity interview

with her forthright portraits of actors, athletes, musicians and a

huge range of public figures. The secret of her success was Jim at it

is, she says, being very nosy and asking questions nobody else dares

to. We will hear about some of her classic encounters later on. But

first, the news. The Governor of the Bank of England has given his

strongest warning yet about the risk posed by the housing market to the

economy. Mark Carney Sarah is there is little the Bank of England can do

about what he says are deep structural albums in the housing

market, with demand outstripping supply. As the cost of a new home

has increased, so, too, have fears about the property market. There has

been talk of a housing bubble, with rising prices forcing people to

borrow large amounts compared to their income. The Governor of the

Bank of England was asked about it at his press conference this week.

The second point is that you are absolutely right that the most

notable development in terms of mortgage lending as a trend has been

the increase in higher loan to income mortgages. Today, he tells

Sky News that the housing market is the biggest risk to the financial

stability of the country. He says new houses are needed to solve the

basic problem, that demand outstrips supply. At the Bank of England is

not going to start building property just instead, the Governor said,

they will keep a close eye on banks to make sure they can back up what

they are lending and make sure mortgages are only given to those

who can afford them in the long-term. He wants to make sure any

would-be housing bubble does not burst, leaving people with

unaffordable debt, which he says could threaten the country's

economic recovery. People in Serbia are bracing themselves for a fresh

surge of flood water, as authorities struggle to deal with the worst

flooding in the Balkans in a century. Three months of rain has

fallen in a few days. 20 people have died and that number is expected to

rise. Nobody alive in Serbia today has ever seen flooding as bad as

this. EU's outer suburb in this area has almost entirely submerged. Other

towns across the country have met the same fate. The only answer is to

evacuate, without electricity or drinking water. People are usually

basking in the sun at this time of year. Instead, they are piling up

the sandbags, hoping they will be enough to hold back the deluge.

TRANSLATION: These sandbags are taken to critical positions for

flood defence from the river. In conditions like this, Serbia's Prime

Minister says the outcome is beyond human control. TRANSLATION: We can

only hope. We have done everything we could. Now, we can only pray to

God. The situation is at least as bad in neighbouring Bosnia.

Thousands of people are being evacuated. The authorities have

called for international help, and Croatia has answered the call. China

has evacuated more than 3000 citizens from Vietnam following a

wave of anti-Chinese riots, according to reports from the

state-run news agency. At least two Chinese nationals have been killed

and 100 injured in recent unrest in Vietnam over a Chinese oil drilling

operation in dispute is -- in disputed waters. West African

leaders attending an emergency summit in Paris have promised to

wage total war on the Islamist militant group which kidnapped more

than 200 girls in Nigeria last month. The French president

announced what he called a global plan of action to tackle Cohan ram.

The group has been accused of abducting ten Chinese workers in

Cameroon last Friday. Here, there is mounting pressure on the head of the

Premier League to resign in the wake of sexist Tom Ince he made in

private e-mails. A league committee is due to meet tomorrow to decide if

Richard Scudamore should face disciplinary action.

Now, as ever, to the front pages of the papers. This is a story in the

Independent ab out water contamination, quite scary. And then

we have got the Sunday Telegraph, the new Culture Secretary, who is

Asian himself... And interestingly they have also picked up on the

Governor of the Bank of England, Mr Carney, warning of the risk to the

economy of house price increases. The Sunday Times, the rich double

their wealth in five years, which gives a warm glow of satisfaction to

everybody else, I am sure. And then, Scotland on Sunday, every single

front page except this one has Arsenal cavorting around in

delight, but this one Has St Johnstone cavorting around in

delight. Their main story is that the new poll shows support for the

yes campaign for independence slipping a little bit as the UK

economy recovers. To talk about all that and much more, John Simpson and

Ann Treneman. I think we have to start with politics, because there

is a political frenzy in the papers today. Even more of a political

frenzy than normal! Very hard to avoid pictures of David Cameron and

Nigel Farage. Also, it is hard to remember which election we are

reading about. Is it the Scottish referendum, the European

election... Was Jim at anyway, I love this graph, which is designed

to show that the Tories are taking over. Out of all of this, what

conclusions can any sensible person draw?! Well, we can definitely see

that Nigel Farage is not going to go away. Today, he always speaks in

code, so he is quoted as being worried about Romanians. He says it

is perfectly normal to be worried about Romanians moving in next to

you. He was asked, why are they different from Germans? And he

replied, you know the difference. I know, and he is married to a German.

If a UKIP person moved in next to you, you might be worried about

that. He speaks in a kind of... Coming back from Nigeria, this must

seem rather trivial to you? It seems rather nice and calm and... Scotland

breaking away, you know, it seems quite peaceable, really. We will be

speaking to Nicola Sturgeon about these polls - what is your reading

of the papers on the Scottish question? There is an article by my

friend and former editor, when I used to work for the Spectator,

Dominic Lawson, who says something which I must say, I rather wonder

about. Back in 1992, when in fact I was reporting the general election

then, the British election, for the Spectator, I found a weird sense in

the John Major camp, which seemed so disastrous, hopeless, certain to

fail, and I wrote about it for the Spectator, that they thought they

were going to win. Everybody else was totally against this. And he

won. The Spectator was the only magazine which said there was a

possibility, so my stock temporarily was quite high. The fact is, nobody

wanted to be associated with such a ramshackle outfit as John Major's

Tories. Something of the same principle, only the principal, seems

to be applying, according to Lawson, in Scotland. So, people do

not want to say, I do not want to have anything to do with Scottish

independence. When they are asked, they say, maybe. But when they get

into the silence and solitude of the election box, the voting box... That

is the theory. Ann Treneman, your next story? Well, you have got Nick

Clegg on later, and he is very hard to avoid in the papers today. There

is this story, I think it is in the Sunday Times, about a plot to remove

him. We have seen this headline a few times over the years. Nick Clegg

allies? Enemies, you would expect! No one is named. It is anonymous. It

says groups of MPs usually loyal to Nick Clegg... But the thing that I

find really interesting is that almost at the end of the story, it

says, a further sign of Nick Clegg's precarious position, David

Cameron is mounting a save Nick Clegg operation in the next few

weeks! That is what I would worry about if I was him! Now, there are

lots of big, big stories. India has had a real election and produced a

really interesting result? Yes, and this is really the story of the

week, perhaps more than that. Because India has, as we now know,

elected Mr Modi, a man with a certain baggage of controversy

behind him. Only two years ago, I think, the Americans and British

would not allow him into the country because of his perceived hostility

to Muslims and his record... Allegations that he was involved in

some pretty horrific massacres of Muslims way back, and was allegedly

associated with an almost fascist organisation as well? That is

absolutely right, I do not think that is an allegation. The New

Statesman had a very good article about this last week, which is

chapter and verse. Yes, and he says the 21st century is going to belong

to India. Well, I suppose, not impossible, but it is going to

depend on whether Mr Modi can turn India around. 5-10 years ago, we

thought India was going to be one of the world's superpowers. Five years

ago, we and Mr Modi has got the job of trying to turn it around. And

when he was ruling Gujarat, it should be said, he was incredibly

effective in fighting corruption and boosting business and so forth.

There must be a good possibility that he has ridden the wave, he

knows what to say to large crowds of people, but he also knows how to run

an economy. There must be a reasonable chance that he will do

the job in India. We have got to hope so. Back to domestic politics,

we are all waiting for something called the Chilcot Inquiry, can you

remind us why we are so excited about this? It is a memory now. It

was years ago. We have been waiting for years and it is costing

millions, it is costing millions to wait. And what is it? Oh, it is any

enquiries into the Iraq war, and why we went in. Tony Blair and all of

that. We all went into this subterranean basement in the QE2

centre, and since then, there has been radio silence for four years.

Now, people are getting fed up and beginning to think, we are never

ever going to get to the bottom of this. And there is this little

piece, Peter Hitchens, today, where he says, basically, David Cameron

really wanted to see this inquiry published, if he did, then it would

happen, and I tend to agree with him. In a society like ours, it is

quite difficult to shut up about it, isn't it? As far as I understand

it, it is a procedure where everyone checks and everything to make sure

nobody objects on anything. I just think they should publish it. Howard

Wilson's made those comments that to set up the committee takes months

and waste years. And millions. You have picked a story from the

Independent. Three people who are less than effective in their job -

Francois Hollande, the head of the European commission, and Goodluck

Jonathan, the president of Nigeria. The most ill named president! And

only together can they beat Boko Haram. I would just like to remind

people there is a clip of one of your reports from Nigeria to remind

people what they are up against. The bridge outside this town had

been blown up last Wednesday. But two days earlier, the area was hit

by an army of Boca Harlem men. They arrived at 1:30pm in the afternoon,

we counted hundreds of burnt out cars. The coal -- Boko Haram didn't

want anyone following them. I have seen lots of towns attacked,

I'm afraid. I have never seen one so comprehensively destroyed as this

town. You just get a sense of the violent savagery that Boko Haram

house. If you stumbled upon the massacre of this scale, it must be

going on again and again, and is it because it is too difficult and

dangerous an area for the world's media to get to or what? Yes, the

Nigerian media, let alone the outside world. The government isn't

really interesting. -- interested. Goodluck Jonathan should have gone

to the village where the girls were kidnapped from but shied away at the

last minute. You don't see the Nigerian army, apart from anything

else. The idea that somehow or another there are loads of SAS men

and Americans and helicopters coming in full of stuff, it's absolute

nonsense. The place is empty, the roads are empty, you don't see the

military anywhere and Boko Haram is given a free hand. Why isn't the

Nigerian army there? It has been starved of funding, it is not a very

effective organisation now. While I was there, a group of men attacked

their kernel because he wanted them to get a bit more involved. No way

we are going in their! So the chances of these girls being rescued

looks fairly grim. I agree. The only way to do it is some kind of

negotiation but the trouble is no one knows whom to negotiate with.

And the man that runs the whole thing is a complete crazy

character. I quoted something the BBC actually caught out on BBC

world, I think they thought it was too extreme. I quoted him as saying

that... From one of his videos, he said, I enjoy killing the people

that God tells me to kill, just as I enjoy killing chickens and rams. We

have run out of time for the papers, but thank you for now very

much indeed, and now to the weather which for many of us has been

glorious over the last few days. You are not going to spoil it, are you

Peter? I'm holding back the waters but they are encroaching across

western areas at the moment. For the majority, summer continues

today. It is England and Wales seeing the best of that at the

moment. You will notice across Northern Ireland and western

Scotland it is a very different story. Persistent outbreaks of

rain, with us for the rest of the day, but central and eastern

Scotland hang on to the fine weather. There will be some cloud in

the sky from time to time but not spoiling things. Temperatures will

be in the low 20s from the north of England to the south. The rain will

turn Apache overnight across Scotland and Northern Ireland, but

then easing in across the western fringes of England and Wales. That

rain in the west lingering into Monday, it will become more

widespread as the week goes on, but central and eastern areas again

should get a fine day with good spells of sunshine and in the warmer

spots up to 25 degrees. Looking more settled for everyone by the middle

of the week. The European elections will be the

last big test of opinion in Scotland before the independence referendum

in September. Europe has loomed large over the campaign. Would an

independent Scotland move seamlessly into the EU? I will be joining

Glasgow now, the party's deputy leader, Nicola Sturgeon. Can I talk

about this opinion poll in the Scotland on Sunday, it does show a

fall in the yes campaign's decision. Have you noticed that in the last

few days? No, on the contrary, it is just one opinion poll. Another one

puts the yes vote at 47%. I think the really significant and

interesting thing about the opinion polls is the trend we have seen over

recent months. If you look back at latter months last year we saw the

vote averaging out at the mid 30s, now for the yes vote it is around

the mid 40s so there has been clear progress. Of course we have got work

to do and we are going to work hard over the remaining four months to

persuade people we will be better off as an independent country. Has

the Scottish government had any public or private communications

with the governments of Spain, Italy or France about re-entry to the EU

after a yes vote? The Scottish government talks to other countries

all the time, I'm not going to go into the detail of private talks,

but what is clear is that other countries don't want to interfere. I

will say no other government, including the Government of Spain,

has even come close to saying that they would look to veto the

membership of an independent Scotland. In another newspaper today

we have David Martin himself saying that he thinks Scotland would be a

member of the European Union. It is that kind of common sense that I

think the majority of people in Scotland agree with. And because you

haven't had any confirmation from these governments, because you --

they don't want to interfere in the results of a referendum, you don't

know for sure, do you? A very important point here is that of

course it is in Scotland's interest to continue to be a member of the

European Union but it wouldn't be in the interests of any other member

state or as the UK union as a whole for Scotland to be outside the

European Union for a single second. The comments that Jose Manuel

Barroso made on your programme have been widely criticised by many other

European experts. In fact there is a debate among those vying to be his

successor, just a few days ago, and most of those candidates seemed to

be distancing themselves from those comments as well. It has been said

that Scotland would have two join the queue... Interestingly the legal

expert that the UK government commissioned to do a legal opinion

said the timescale was realistic. It is in the interests of everybody for

that transition to be smooth and we see more and more people, including

David Martin, Labour's candidate, saying something similar. That is

the common-sense argument that people understand and appreciate.

The Queen intervened in a sense, not suggesting people should vote yes or

no, but that it was very important for the Scots to come together and

heal the wounds. A lot of hot words have been said and accusations

made. Are you convinced that healing process can happen? We have had a

very robust debate, no one could deny that, but the meetings have

attracted hundreds of people so it is a very positive debate about what

is best for the future of Scotland. We all have a responsibility to make

sure the tone and the tenor of the debate continues to be positive. Of

course after the referendum we are one country and we will move forward

together. That's why we've made clear we would take forward the

negotiations on a team Scotland basis so those arguing for the no

vote, we would look to take expert opinion from a wide variety of

sources. One side or another is going to feel hurt and bruised after

the result and there is going to have to be a lot of reaching out of

hands in a way that hasn't happened yet, isn't there? Absolutely. We all

feel very strongly in what we are campaigning for. I believe Scotland

will be better off as an independent country and individually better

off. I appreciate those arguing on the opposite side of the debate are

sincere in their beliefs as well. You don't regard them as traitors?

Absolutely not! But I think if we all conduct ourselves properly in

this debate, then I don't think these wounds need to occur at all.

One of the criticism I have of the no campaign is that it has been

relentlessly negative seeking to talk Scotland down, and I would hope

they will raise their game as well. If the worst, from your point of

view, happens and you don't achieve the yes vote, would you look for

extra devolutionary powers? I'm sceptical about whether the other

parties will deliver that, that's one of the reasons I am campaigning

so hard for the yes vote. We hear a lot of vague words from other

parties on the no side about more powers but we don't hear anything

concrete. I don't remember that clearly because I was fairly young

but Scotland was promised more powers if it voted no in a previous

referendum and all we got was 18 years of Tory government. Thanks

very much indeed for joining us this morning.

Known to fans and folk as well as the Demon Barber of Fleet Street,

Lynn Barber has never been afraid to ask the questions other interviewers

might have docked. She asked Harriet Harman if she was sick, she made an

enemy of Marianne Faithfull, and nearly got lynched by one tennis

idol fan for being too nosy about his private life. Her own private

life is the focus of the hit film, And Education. I will be speaking to

her in a moment but first a clip from that programme.

If anyone else tells me what a lovely lad Rafa Nadal is, I shall

scream. He is not allowed, he has just turned 25, which is admittedly

young, but he is in his ninth year on the Grand Slams circuit, has won

nine Grand Slam titles, and has won millions and millions of pounds, and

I did not find him lovely at all. Now, it must be very difficult, when

you go to do an interview, if you really like somebody, how do you

deal with that? I quite often like people and give them a really nice

write-up. Actually, I have just for the first time like a politician. I

interviewed Margaret Hodge and we were really like best friends

immediately, it was wonderful. She will be greatly you do a huge amount

of preparation for each interview. One thing which comes up again and

again is how boring actors are to interview? Yes, and I have recently

been off a lot when I... They are difficult to interview. Their

attitude is often, what do you want me to say, or how do you want me to

be? Of course, the answer is, I just want you to be yourself. And they

have got the film companies on their backs, saying, talk about the film!

And nowadays, you have to go through these nightmare negotiations with

their representatives about whether you can have 20 minutes or 40

minutes. Because my pieces are all very long, I write 3500 words at

least, I refused to do an interview, I refused to write that

much on the back of a 20 minute meeting. And you always have to be

face-to-face, and preferably in the house of the interviewee, so you can

pick up... ? Frugally, but nowadays that is quite rare, that people let

you in their houses, which I can understand, to be honest. Do you

ever meet people who you dislike intensely was Jim people you think

are phoney or fake? I did an interview recently with Michael

O'Leary, the head of Ryanair. He was supposed to have completely changed

his image, having been very horrible, he was now going to be Mr

lovable. I thought I would be interested to see how that played

out! And four about the first five minutes, he is outgoing and all the

rest of it. But then the real hardness comes in, and you start

getting this sense of a complete Scrooge, who basically wants to

humiliate his passengers and make them feel cheap. So, that was quite

good. I had almost despaired of disliking somebody as much as I

dislike him! Your juices came back! In terms of disliking more

characters, now dead, you did very well, because you were the only

interview I think to push Jimmy Savile on all of these stories going

around. You picked things up from people he knew, presumably, do you

now think you wish you had gone even harder, because you got a a lot of

abuse at the time? Yes, I got, how dare you ask him that? He had just

been knighted and raised millions for charity. I said, people say that

you like little girls, which people did, in journalistic circles, but I

had never seen it in print. Obviously, I had tried to get

somebody who had some knowledge of it but I never got that. But I am

quite proud of myself having just got a question into the article, and

that was really... You raised the subject. I opened the subject, which

was all I could do. Was he affronted average no, I got the impression

that he must have had to answer the question before. He had quite a pat

answer. He was flustered for a minute. He went into that awful, I

know, you know... With his wet cigar. But what was so maddening was

that when he did start to emerge as a paedophile, recently, after he

died, one of the papers reprinted my interview. Having had all of the

flak at the time, I then got all the flak now, as too, why did you not

say that he was a paedophile?! But I couldn't. I was interested in your

book, you say you love interviewing artists, presumably because you love

art and they are interesting people, are probably your worst experience

would have been with the Chapman brothers? Well, he would kill me if

he sees me again, Jake. I have had a friendly conversation with the other

one. You know the Chapman brothers... Yes, they are a

difficult pair. They are, and I was trying to find out about their

growing up. Also, one of them has a slightly deformed hand, which I

found interesting, because they were doing deformed figures. And they

were so huffy - what a rude question, how dare you ask somebody

that! I do not seriously think that Jake is going to kill me, though.

There are two things in the book which suggest why you are such a

good interviewer. One is that you spent years working for Penthouse,

asking very personal questions, so you lost all sense of embarrassment.

The other is your early upbringing, and the sense of being had by a

conman. That laid the base for the film. Probably just as well the

Russians are going film. Probably just as well the

bomb on us any time now. My choice is to do something hard or boring or

to go to Paris and Rome and listen to jazz, and read and eat good food

in nice restaurants and have fun. It is not enough to educate us any

more, Miss Walters, you have got to tell us why you are doing it. It

does not have to be teaching, you know. There is the civil service.

And by gum, US kept all of that! I did. -- you escaped. But I think it

has been a happy career, lots of fun, lots of drink, lots of

friends? I have been so happy, and just stumbling into it, really. A

long time ago, I was asked whether I would like to do an interview with

you, and I said, no, thank you, I am stupid but not that stupid. But you

have been delightful today, thank you! So, how will the Lib Dems fare

in the elections for Europe and the local elections on Thursday? The

party is languishing in fourth place, its ratings in single

figures. Nick Clegg is scoring lowest of the main party leaders. He

and the Tories have been sniping over all topics. And once again

there are questions about the survival of the coalition. Being in

government seems to have brought nothing but trouble for the Lib Dems

in terms of popularity. So where now? I am joined by Nick Clegg. Has

it been worth it? Your party is facing near oblivion in the polls,

what is the single thing that you have achieved in government which

will allow you to look in the Mirror and say, it has been worth it?

Massive tax breaks for millions of people. Biggest change in the

personal income tax system in a generation, benefiting more than 24

million people to the tune of ?800. I can add to that list, better

apprenticeships, better pensions... At joking aside, of course it has

been tough. Going into coalition with either the Conservatives or the

Labour Party in a system which is not used to coalitions is always

going to be controversial, and added to that, we had to fulfil the

central mission of this government, which was to repair and reform the

British economy just but when I look back at what we have done over the

last four years, I think most Liberal Democrats feel the same way,

I am immensely proud that our resilience and unity, despite

endless negative predictions to the contrary, have actually delivered

the stability necessary to deliver economic recovery, and a recovery

which is also delivering fairness to millions of people. But at a

devastating cost your record in the polls is terrible at the moment.

Lets see what happens in the forthcoming elections. I cannot tell

what will happen. Having been knocking on doors over the last few

weeks, I've and getting the impression that in those areas where

we can get our side of the story across, explaining what we have

done, actually I think we will do better than people predict. But I

accept in those areas where we are not strong on the ground, it is very

challenging. That it was always going to be difficult for us,

because we are breaking the mould of traditional two-party politics. We

are taking difficult decisions to restore the validity to the British

economy, but we are delivering Liberal Democrat policies which we

could not possibly deliver from the opposition benches. What would be a

good result in the European elections, in terms of numbers of

MEPs? I want as many Liberal Democrat MEPs as possible. I think

they are a guarantee in the European Parliament. I am not going to come

up with numbers. I believe that we have shown in this European campaign

the courage of our convictions. We are the only party to say, we have

got to stand up to UKIP, to this nasty view of the world, wanting to

turn the clock back, it will damage the future of Britain. I hope many

people will recognise that the only party who have had the guts to say

this is us. Let's look at the polls, it is absolutely clear, month

after month, week after week, 7% or 8%, that is close to wipe out as a

serious political force in this country - my question to you, what

is going wrong for you? You have got all these great policies, you have

been going around trying to argue with Nigel Farage, who won those

debates, according to snap polls. We can talk about polls if you like,

they go up and down. But these are consistent. Let's see what happens

next week and in the general election. What we are finding up and

down the country is, where we get our message across, where we are

able to explain that if it was not for us, there would not be an

economic recovery, let alone more money into schools through the pupil

premium and all of the other things, none of that would have happened.

Sure, there might be individual decisions which people do not like,

which this government has had to take. But the big judgements,

entering into coalition in the first lace to provide stability at a time

of great instability, in order to deliver those big changes so that

the economy is now looking much more optimistic, I think it would be

highly self-defeating, precisely at the point when our big judgements

are being vindicated, for us to lose our nerve. That is what we are a

much more resilient and united party than our critics suggest. The

biggest judgment was too going to coalition in the first place, and

the problem is that when things are going badly, the Liberal Democrats

get the blame, and when things are going well, the Conservatives gets

the credit? That is why it is important that we shelter from the

rooftops what we have done. There are not that many people around who

want to promote our side of the story. I can see it in my

constituency in Sheffield. Where we have been campaigning for months and

years, people understand what we have done and by and large, they

will continue to support us. By the way, I think next week, one thing

which the Westminster -based media has not picked up on at all is the

huge blow to traditional Labour support in their big Labour

heartlands, for instance in the north, at the hands of UKIP. I think

UKIP will do very well particularly at the cost of labour, in their

traditional heartlands in the north. That is not something you picked up

in poles, but we will see next week whether it comes true or not. We

have introduced the subject of Europe, and the Prime Minister has

made it clear that he will not carry on as Prime Minister if he cannot

deliver an in-out referendum by 2017 - would you allow that to happen if

you were in coalition with him again? I am not going to start

speculating about who will demand what I'm coalition negotiations

after any election. But I will have no problem with a referendum. What I

will say is that wind power is transferred, then there should be a

referendum. -- when power is transferred. There should have been

a referendum at the time of the Lisbon Treaty. The problem with the

Conservative position, they are playing hokey cookie with the

British people. First, they said they would come up with some

sweeping renegotiation of Britain's membership of the European Union.

Then it transpires they have got seven, rather minor, insignificant

little tweaks which they have got. And now, they are saying that if

they do not get those minor changes, they will campaign to leave the

European Union. So, you have got UKIP who want to jeopardise the

future of the country by pulling out, the Conservatives playing

games, this way and that, on Europe, the Labour Party, which is

now a great big void on Europe, completely silent on the issue...

They are not saying anything. I asked him about a referendum, Ed

Miliband, and he said exactly what you have just said. Only the Liberal

Democrats have said, you have got to be committed to be in the European

Union if you want to win the big arguments on all the major topics.

We are the only party, at least we have the courage of our

convictions. You are the in no matter what party. We are in for

reform, but you cannot win an argument unless you are in an

argument. A lot of people say you cannot win the argument unless you

threaten them with something. It is a form of petulance to say we are

going to stamp our feed to get a shopping list of really minor

changes by the way, and if we don't get them we will quit. If you say

that, people will say, well suit yourself. You don't think David

Cameron can get even minor changes? By the way most of those changes are

things people will agree with, for example making sure proper

guarantees for the member states outside the European Union zone, of

course you need to do that but you don't need to secure the changes by

stamping your foot the sideline and threatening to throw your toys out

of the pram. So you think it is a phoney agenda? It is never going to

satisfy large parts of the Conservative party because large

parts of the Conservative party want to join Nigel Farage and leave so we

have this phoney war which is now being papered over, the cracks are

being papered over, by holding this arbitrary referendum in 2017. I have

a problem with the internal divisions of the Conservative party

being the determining factor of what should be a policy taken in the

national interest. I care about what is right for Britain in the long

run, not managing the internal party divisions. You have been involved in

the European Union for a very long time, what is the chance of a major

renegotiation and a treaty happening by 2017? I think it is much slimmer

than David Cameron does. There are many other European governments, the

French in particular, who are rather wary of an endless navel-gazing

exercise when we should be creating more jobs, entering into new trade

deals. Those are the kind of reforms we can get on with now. You have

been admirably clear, but from what you have been saying it seems

impossible that Nick Clegg and David Cameron could rule together after

the next election. I don't see how you could possibly stick together.

When the time comes, we will be clear about our priorities. Don't

sneer. It is perfectly acceptable for me to say that if nobody wins

the next general election, what will happen is compromise. The question

is whether you would allow David Cameron to be Prime Minister, and

presumably it is not up for grabs. It is simple, I state my view, he

states his view, and the British people staked their view in the

ballot box. It is wrong for people to presume they know the result of

the next general election. If we were to continue in a coalition with

the Conservatives, I would continue to be a guarantor for fairness. The

Conservatives constantly look at the people -- look after the people at

the top, and for me that is a more important role in the grander scheme

of things. Since you asked me about my position on the referendum, I am

repeating something my party has been saying for years. Again you say

that the most important thing is to protect the people at the bottom of

the heap which suggests to me you could trade the notion of when the

referendum happens in favour of protecting people. I think it is

clear from the way you are talking where your priorities are. I just

have this old-fashioned view that an election should be determined by the

voters, and we should not second-guess them but say what we

believe. We are the only party to say what we believe in Europe, other

parties can say what they wish, then people can make up their mind and we

have to deal with the card dealt to us. We have been talking about the

next coalition, let's talk about this one which appears to be coming

apart completely. Dominic Cummings has been saying that you are self

obsessed, sanctimonious, so dishonest he doesn't know what right

and wrong is, a revolting character, we have thwarted Nick Clegg as much

as record. That is one of your allies. What is going on in

coalition? It is exactly what it says on the tin, two parties which

are different. I'm not a Conservative, never would be, they

would not be Liberal Democrats, but by and large we resolve our

differences successfully. Far from that lead into paralysis, I think

many people accept we have been an extremely ambitious reforming

government across welfare, pensions, education, tax, and so on. From time

to time you get intemperate language from people, I will leave that to

them, but this coalition has shown... In the last government you

had a Blair government and the Brown government, but at least a day in

day out, David Cameron and myself make sure we seek to resolve our

differences, sometimes successfully, sometimes not, but the history books

will show that when it comes to reforming the economy, fixing the

banks, more apprenticeships, a more sustainable pension system, we have

delivered over and over again. What is undermining the authority is that

extreme language, actually coming from both sides. I always tried to

express my opinions about other people by not indulging in infantile

personal language about them, we have talked about some of the

differences between the Conservatives and the Liberal

Democrats... You should call off the Liberal Democrat dogs perhaps. I

think we have had remarkable successes and I have lost count of

the predictions that it was going to end, fall apart, and every time we

have confounded those sceptics. We have fixed the economy, delivered

fairer taxes, and I like to think people will look back on this

Government and say it is an unprecedented government doing

unprecedented things. Let's turn again to Europe because that is the

vote, not now. Nigel Farage has said you can tell a Romanian next to you

compared with the German, is that racist language? I think the mass is

starting to slip and what is being revealed is a really nasty view of

the world. Anyone who singles out one community, one nationality, and

says I don't want to live next door to them, I think that is the

politics of division and should have no place in modern Britain. I would

say to people, if you don't like that point of view, if like me you

are really put off by this very divisive nasty approach to things,

please go out and vote. The more people don't vote, the more likely

it is UKIP will get in. And you are willing to debate on television

about these things? I think that because I was willing to take Nigel

Farage on, the political consensus was to ignore him but I decided to

take him on and I like to think that is one of the reasons he is now

being subject to more scrutiny, the mask is starting to slip, and many

British people don't share his view. That's why I would ask them to go

out and vote next week so we can deliver a convincing answer of

decency to that nastiness. The governor of the Bank of England has

said for the first time he is worried about the housing bubble, is

he right? We certainly shouldn't repeat the terrible mistakes of the

past. I think if he says we need to pare back on some of the Government

schemes like the Help To Buy scheme, we should do so, and he is certainly

right when he says the long-term problem is that we simply don't

build enough homes in this country. One final question, I don't know if

you heard Nicola Sturgeon expressing disbelief about the possibility of

more devolution if there is a no vote in the Scottish referendum,

what is your message to Scotland? I think further devolution is now

inevitable. There is an emerging consensus, my party has always

advocated home-rule, Labour have now come up with their ideas, the

Conservatives are about to publish their ideas and I want the Liberal

Democrats to act as a guarantor in any future government because I

think that is the right future for Scotland, in the UK but with greater

devolution within the UK. Thank you, now the news headlines. Nick Clegg

has said that if it wasn't for his party being in the Coalition, the

economic recovery would not have happened. Nick Clegg says he had no

problem with a referendum on the UK membership of the EU, if there is a

further transfer of power to Brussels but he accused David

Cameron of adopting a petulant approach to Europe. The Governor of

the Bank of England has given his strongest warning yet about the

risks to the UK economy posed by the booming housing market.

In an interview with Sky News he said there were deep structural

problems with demand for homes outstripping supply. The next news

is on BBC One at one o'clock, now let's look at what is coming up

immediately after this programme. We will be in London at ten o'clock,

asking one big question - did the First World War change Britain for

the better? We have writers, historians, commentators and

campaigners ready to debate. Nick Clegg is still with me and we

have been joined again by Lynn Barber and Ann Treneman. You were

mentioning the Chilcott inquiry in the paper review. I thought I would

ask Nick, I've heard you would like to see it published. Yes, it is very

frustrating. What is the problem? It is an independent inquiry so it is

not up to me or David Cameron. I think it should be and could be

published by the end of the year. I have asked the Cabinet Secretary to

make sure the Whitehall departments cooperate so the outstanding

issues... Are they not cooperating? There are just so many documents, so

much toing and froing. I think it is really important it should be

published and can be published by the end of the year. You are right,

people want to know. This is one of the most momentous mistakes and

British foreign policy ever. Lowering the tone, I wondered when

you last had a cigarette. Don't ask me that! More recently than I should

have done. An hour ago? No, I never smoked during the day, I have always

been an end of the day kind of smoke but it is an ongoing journey. Do you

smoke? Like a chimney, yes. I have been in this studio now for my

tolerance level. You are starting to twitch? I hope my children aren't

watching this! On that interesting note, thank you very much indeed. We

have run out of time. Please join me again next Sunday when we will be

digesting the results of the local elections and we will hear from the

actor James McAvoy, but for now a very good morning, goodbye.

A new era blooms at the RHS Chelsea Flower Show,

with a fresh crop of exciting young designers.