15/06/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

It's only football. Join me today for our review of the Sunday

newspapers, the editor of the biggest selling Sunday, the jury in

Newton and one -- Victoria Newton and Azfal Ashraf. The country was

supposed to be a haven of peace and democracy, but the person we want to

hear from is Tony Blair. And we will. He spoke to was earlier from

the Middle East and laid out how he sees the current crisis and what the

West should do now. But what of his original decision to go to war in

2003? When you revisit the things you are saying at the time, like in

Congress, that Iraqi becoming a beacon of peace, stability and

democracy, you must acknowledge there was an element of naivete

that? I acknowledge absolutely that the hopes not fulfilled. The next

biggest political story remains the Scottish independence referendum.

Last week we spoke to Alex Salmond for the yes campaign, and this week

we speak to one of the big beast of the Labour Party brought in for the

prounion campaign, John Reid, former cabinet minister in virtually every

job you can think of, now Lord Reed. We have also got the newest cabinet

minister, Sajid Javid, who, as culture Secretary, takes

responsibility from everything to football, lucky man, to the BBC.

Lucky man. He's also responsible for theatre, and on cue, I will be

talking to one of the of grain -- grandest of grand dames, the great

Kathleen Turner. It's going to be one heck of an hour. First the news.

The United States says any assistance to fight the violent

Islamist uprising in parts of Iraq will only succeed if the Iraqi

authorities overcome deep divisions and forge 'national unity'.

The warning comes as Iran says it could be prepared to work with

Meanwhile, the former Prime Minister Tony Blair has blamed the renewed

violence on the failure of western countries to intervene in Syria.

He says the advance of insurgents has to be countered

with force but not necessarily another ground invasion.

This is where the fightback against Sunni Muslim militants begins. The

Iraqi government, hopes. These pictures show a helicopter gunships

hitting militant targets. The Iraqi prime minister has vowed to retake

the towns and villages overpowered by insurgents in recent days. And

these are the forces he is trying to stop, Sunni fighters from the ISIS

group, who have been five -- advanced to the north of Baghdad. 1

million people having left homeless according to the UN, senior

officials say a failure to repel the attack would tear the country apart.

We are seeing a very serious threat to the sovereignty and integrity of

the country, that is what needs to be dealt with. It cannot be dealt

with only militarily, but not only politically, because your opponent

is a very determined organisation, a group of people who seek to destroy

the state. Fearful that Iraq might be on the brink, the US has sent an

aircraft carrier to the region while Barack Obama considers possible air

strikes. The Iranians president says his country is willing to help both

Iraq and the US confirmed what he calls terrorist groups. The blame

game over who is responsible for the ISIS gains continues. Writing on his

website, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair says the upturn

in violence is the predictable result of the West's failure to

intervene in neighbouring Syria. Hopes of a positive start

for the England team were dashed as they were beaten 2-1 by Italy in

the heat and humidity of Manaus, in For those who couldn't make it to

Brazil, there was comfort in numbers, as fans gathered

together to watch the match.Mike Bushell joined some of them

in Liverpool. The heat and humidity dictated the

pace and both sides looked ragged. Early on, fancier for Raheem

Sterling had found just an opening, only to realise it was the side

netting. The feeling was that England were giving Italy too much

space, so nobody was to surprise when the Italians did opening -- did

open the scoring. But the disappointment didn't last for long.

And the relief was there as Daniel Sturridge turned in the equaliser

and got the party going again. But the half-time bubble of optimism was

burst, because after the break, Mario Balotelli exposed the

frailties at the back once more. That frustration for England fans

only grew as England huffed and puffed but could not break down the

Italian's notoriously strong defence. God bit tired towards the

end. The skills weren't there. The Italians probably a bit better in

possession, kept the ball, didn't run as much. It showed over the 90

minutes. We have the chance is to have won the game, that is for sure.

There it is, England can find a way through, so it gets more tense for

the England fans next Thursday against Uruguay. England can draw

comfort from the fact that the team has never failed to qualify from the

group stage of the World Cup they have been out since 1958. However,

Uruguay are the South American champions and are also wounded

having lost their opening match as well. Mike, with the fans in

Liverpool, for BBC News. Older people with HIV need better

support to keep them well, that's according to the

Royal College of Nursing.It's estimated that around a quarter

of the 100,000 people with HIV Nurses say better training

for staff is needed to ensure that those living with

the virus do not face stigma when The former British number one

tennis player, Elena Baltacha, who died last month, will be remembered

today as a number of mixed doubles The 30-year-old died

of liver cancer, and the matches are in aid of

Baltacha's tennis academy in Ipswich Wimbledon champion Andy Murray will

take part along with Tim Henman Murray's mother Judy says today's

matches are I'll be back with the headlines just

before ten a.m.. As usual, to the front pages, and the single biggest

technical challenge for the newspapers was getting the England

result in. We will be talking to the editor of the sun on Sunday, but

first is her front-page, about the ballet dancer and Mick Jagger. There

we go. With some of the other papers it's hard to know whether they knew

or not. The Sunday Telegraph, which we don't have here, oh no, there it

is, says England against Italy, down but not out. They don't have the

result. Was that an inspired guess? And also the effect on the taxes on

house prices going up and we will pay more in depth duties. The Mail

on Sunday has Cameron telling UK Muslims to be more British and we'll

talk about that later on. And the Sunday Times, still has its teeth

into the backside of fever, a big investigation on the story and Kate

are. To review the papers, Victoria Newton, and Azfal Ashraf, who was a

counterterrorism officer working for the United States Institute, the

oldest think tank in the world, founded by the Duke of Edinburgh --

Duke of Wellington. You have served both in Iraq and Afghanistan. We

will go straight to the extraordinary Iraqi effect, and you

have chosen the Sunday express their and Tony Blair's essay which he

revealed on a website overnight. We have a crisis in Iraq and we are all

thinking about what we should do about it, and the ex-prime minister

wants to say it was not him. That makes me wonder whether Shakespeare

should be quoted here. He does protest too loudly. I also wonder

who his media advisers are because right now, I don't think anybody

would have been looking for blame. They are looking for solutions here.

Anyhow, what he is saying is that if he had not invaded Iraq it would

have been just as bad if not worse, that is what he suggests. An

impossible thing to argue about. It is counterfactual. As to the actual

insurgency itself, we have seen the Iraqi army running away again and we

have a Sunni Muslim militia being roused, led by uranium officers.

What is your feeling about the balance of forces on the ground --

Iranians officers. There are reports that one general is there with 67

advisers, and it's not clear but Ukraine is 1000 miles away, and the

thing that is worrying us in Iraq is on Iran's doorstep. They sent some

typhoon planes to calm things down and it's natural that the Iranians

would want to do something. A small party of 67 is going to be an

advisory thing. The militias, those are just people being roused by the

spiritual head of the Shia Muslims, trying to protect what they think is

an -- an existential threat. The main defence in Baghdad will be by

the Army. They have deserted in the North, but that is not to say that

they will desert around Baghdad, and there are reasons for that. There is

a sense this is the final fight for Baghdad and if they don't hold it,

it's all over. Absolutely. Baghdad could be a city too far for ISIS.

They might have overstretched themselves, and I think if there is

going to be a military intervention by the Iranians or the Americans,

this is the time to do it, because they have broken cover. If they

retreat back into Mosul and Tikrit, it becomes an urban war. Victoria,

you have chosen one of your rival newspapers, the Mail on Sunday to

discuss the second story. They have done a great graphic, an eyewitness

report from the ground in Baghdad, and they have obviously gone on to

the Tony Blair story. They are quite critical of him. He is also pointing

out that in Syria they fail to take action and this has become a huge

problem, and that is his justification. You picked up on the

PR point about why he chose to speak out now. He will be hugely

criticised this. Smoking ban, minimum wage, it's odd he has stuck

his orient. He is a frustrated man because the only thing people want

to talk about the 2003 decision, which will be round his neck for the

rest of his life. Which he still believes is the right decision. The

tragedy is heaving -- is that he did some good things in Sierra Leone and

Kosovo. They were successful because they will -- there was an early

intervention so there was no catastrophe. You have to be careful

of taking one lesson and applying it to another. You mentioned Ukraine

earlier on and you have chosen the Observer, and it looks very like a

Civil War already going on there. I think it is. This is a story about a

military transport aircraft that was shot down by the rebels. Today the

president of Ukraine has declared a day of mourning. The question is, is

this a tipping point? Well, I'm not sure. I think there is another story

that has been eclipsed by this, which I are some old tanks... They

are Russian tanks though. They are Russian tanks, and their rocket

launchers, but they are obsolete tags, so the suggestion is that

Vladimir Putin is pushing them in, but if he was going to reinforce the

rebels, he would have got better weaponry than what is being sent

across. So it is a game, albeit a dangerous one. Victoria, your neck

story, which is politics, your own newspaper having an opinion about --

your next story. And it shows that Tony Blair is more popular than Ed

Miliband as a potential leader. The majority of voters say it is the

case. Labour voters traditionally think that Tony Blair would be at a

leader, so Ed Miliband not having a great week. He is marginally more

popular than Gordon Brown by 1%. Look that if people were feeling

this recovery and this is seen as a huge divide, in the north they are

not and in the site they are. And considering moving homes and going

on holiday. -- in the South. This is a very big economic decision, how

much money to be spent to get that result out? You kept the press is

opening for much longer. This is hugely important, there is even and

show aspect, you need more glories and printing presses with more

people working later into the light. The football edition had to be

finished at 1:15pm -- 1:15am. Did you have front pages for England

winning, the draw and Philip? Absolutely, and you must select this

quickly. -- failure. You cannot afford to be late. And we did this

better than any other paper, I think. The Daily Mail, this argument

about Muslim values in schools, are they promoting values which are

contrary to the tone of this country? That is evolution of the

story but what the Prime Minister wants to do is take the anniversary

of the Magna Carta and suggest we should have British values. I have

two different things, the headline and the other is the way that the

story is running. The headline is not helpful. It says to anybody

looking at this is that Muslims are not Jewish. And tells any of them

that they are not. And it says to extremists, but tiny minority, that,

yes, they are not British. And they are helping them. When you read the

actual text, the Prime Minister avoidance mentioning Muslims, he is

talking about any extremist. What we forget is these extremists are a

very tiny minority, the vast majority of Muslim people... Don't

drain the swamp because you need the crocodiles and nothing but?

Absolutely, and most Muslims are very patriotic. Victoria. This Royal

story. From the Independent. Another opinion poll? They did not use any

picture of the people involved. This shows that the public think that

William is more popular than the Queen, which is shocking. What is

interesting for the newspaper is, in terms of sales, Prince Harry is by

far the most popular. Amongst our own readers. No mention of Kate

Middleton. Her popularity as unsightly winning, perhaps we need

to see more of her. -- is slightly falling. And the football, you have

taken the story from the Sunday Times. You were talking earlier

about this perhaps being milking this too much? When you look at the

details, this is a red herring. The allegation is that a South African

policeman did a report on the security threat and he basically

came to the conclusion that because Qatar is near some insecure places,

it is of a high threat and he does admit this is superficial and as a

security person, I can see why this report was not a major factor. But

the allegation is this is one of the many things that led to the grub

decision. I must let you talk about your own front page and the

football. It was a very long night for England fans. The coverage was

everywhere. What is the verdict, looking ahead? What hope do you

have? We are trying to be up to it, we can still do it, Uruguay on

Thursday, we did not want to dismiss them. People think they played very

well. We are trying to be positive. The sun was in the papers this week,

Ed Miliband having some trouble for holding it up as Mike were you

disappointed by that? Yes, he has worked with us, he has written

articles for me and we get on very well so it did seem odd to make that

decision and then worry afterwards and apologise. Thank you both very

much. Given the temperatures

and humidity that the England football team have had to contend

with in the Amazon jungle, it seems almost churlish to quibble

about the weather here in Britain. But it has been a bit muggy,

splodges of rain amidst hot sun. As summery as most

of us can cope with. So with the forecast for the day

ahead, over to Philip Avery. 16 degrees is a night-time minimum

in Cardiff. Through the coming day, some sunshine around, there is a lot

of cloud around at the moment but it will be pleasantly warm. The cloud

at its thickest from the Borders through the North of England, one or

two buckets of rain at the moment. But this area of high pressure

supply is all about cloud but keeps things settled. It is just feeding

in some noticeable breezes across the South East and that is tapping

into the supply of cloud there. We will stay cloudy East. This central

belt of Scotland, 20 degrees, Northern Ireland, 19 And dry. One or

two showers on the diagonal from the North of England, through the West

Midlands. Generally speaking, the further east, the better the day.

Monday, showers in the far south-east, some cloud and rain in

the north of Scotland and in between, sunny with a top

temperature of 20 degrees. Thank you.

The arguments over Scottish independence have been raging

for years but it is now less than 100 days before

the crucial referendum on Scotland's future on September the 18th.

Last week we heard from the First Minister, Alex Salmond.

Putting the unionist case today, I'm joined by Lord John Reid,

It has been said that the yes campaign has more enthusiasm and

optimism. And the no campaign has been quite pessimistic? Are you

trying to generate optimism's there are plenty of people to do that, I

think that the campaign from our side has been trying to rationally

examine the arguments and the yes campaign has been putting forward

some fantasy and wishful thinking. And that generates a lot of

excitement but when you examine that position over the bigger issues,

what are the advantages of being a member of the UK? Financial

stability and economic strength and the social justice measures. On the

other hand, we risk of separation of currency and Europe and the funding

of pensions. When you focus on those arguments, you will find that we

will sensibly take the no vote. You are confident? I am not complacent.

There has always been the minority in Scotland who objected to the

union. But when you look at what we have achieved over that period, in

terms of economic development and, as Alex Salmond tells us, one of the

wealthiest nations in the world, are we supposed to blame England for

that? That is a reason for staying in the union and why the majority

have always been for membership. I get the impression that there are

but one of the big driving forces on the yes campaign is a feeling of

Scotland wants to be left of centre, social democratic. Higher taxes to

protect the welfare and the NHS and they cannot get that reliably any

more from England, which has drifted to the right. What do you say? There

is a great feeling in Scotland towards the need for social justice

and fairness and you do not have to look into any crystal ball, you can

read the book, the welfare state, the National Health Service, the

minimum wage, all of these things have been delivered by British

Labour or a liberal governments. Never buy National Assembly and they

have been delivered and working together, so the NHS, driven by a

Welshman, the welfare state by Beveridge, and Ingush men, votes for

women, founded by adding rich woman, and the Scots have contributed,

David Hume, Adam Smith, right through to the last Labour

government with so many Scots introduced after 100 years, the

minimum wage. The irony of Alex Salmond making this an issue, I do

welcome that because it is through this work together in the UK that we

have delivered all of those measures. Another issue is about

trust. All of the unionist parties, particularly the Labour Party, say

if there is a no vote, there will be further evolution measures,

including tax raising powers. Yes campaign say you cannot trust that,

they are panicking in the middle of a campaign and they will put the no

vote in their back could add salt off. You can only trust more powers

to the Scottish Parliament by voting yes. Looking at the facts and

history books, it was a Labour government who delivered in 1997

home rule for Scotland through devolution and, of course, to Wales

and Northern Ireland. For most of that campaign, in which I was

involved, the SNP were opposed to devolution. The Calman commission in

2012, which set out the platform for further fish grow for further

economic powers, when it was suggested, the SNP opposed that. --

further growth. Is there anything Unionist parties can do to further

convince people that they will deliver further devolution if there

is the no vote? You must put forward the positive case, financial

stability gained from way back until the Royal Bank of Scotland only a

few years ago. 35 pounds of toxic debt, richer than the GDP of

Scotland. -- 35 million pounds. The position we have is a wealthy

nation, social justice measures and working together because we have our

own political identity in Scotland but we are part of the wider unit.

And then, ask people to Alan is that against the risks. We do not know

what currency we will get, if we will be members of the European

Union or about funding pensions. Sorry to interrupt, you have thrown

herself into your other love, foot well and Celtic. Surely the better

England do, the angrier the Scots will be? You almost think there is a

good hotline for government? If England are knocked out earlier,

that will calm things down? I have never believed that you are a better

Scotsman the more that you dislike England. I was very pleased to see

Alex Salmond saying he was supporting England as one of the

home countries and I did watch the game last night, so this is not a

battle between England and Scotland. This is a discussion and debate

between Scots people about the future of Scotland and the welfare

of the people. And in my own view, I am convinced that that is better

preserved inside the UK, we can be a very rich, diverse nation with our

own identity but part of a much stronger state. Thank you.

In a career that's included some of the biggest movies of the '80s

and '90s, Kathleen Turner is one of film's foremost femmes fatale.

Her partnership with Michael Douglas in Romancing the Stone and The War

of the Roses was a great double act of modern comedy.

And who else but Turner had the kind of voice that could cause

a cartoon to smoulder like Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

Her most recent triumphs have been on the stage, often here in London.

Kathleen Turner is back again, starring in a very funny new

She plays a hard-up, hard-drinking woman who's sure that

a painting she bought in a junk shop is worth millions.

It is not Jackson Pollock? It is not resolved. Not that easily. But I

think that part of what is interesting about this story is,

what is value? The value we place on something might be more important

than the actual market. This is based on real story. It is about

money and class? Very much about class, I think. And the wide

disparity of education and money. Certainly in my country, the gap is

widening. Quite vividly. Is that why we get so many great plays coming

out of America at the moment? We now have this, Bakersfield Mist, very

good, tightly written plays. About money and class with big roles for

women? Something big is happening? I hope so. I like the tendency towards

strong and forceful women. I cannot help that, the one thing I know I

would not play well would be the victim. It is just not my nature.

But I think that more and more women in my country are standing up

proudly and asserting themselves. You seem to be having much more fun

on the stage? Than making films? Oh, yes. I have a film coming out soon

with Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels. And just reminded me of just how

warring I find film-making. You just said there for hours. The act for

about 20 minutes and then sit for another two hours. I love the

intensity of theatre and being in the same space with the audience.

The energy. Of course, you are in the strange position that one of

your most famous roles was as a cartoon character, listening to that

extraordinary voice you have got, and who framed Roger Rabbit was your

breakthrough role for many people. Let's have a little look at it. You

have to make the scam works. No, I love my husband. You don't know how

hard it is being a woman. Looking the way I do. Yes, well, you don't

know how hard it is being a man looking at a woman looking the way

you do. I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way. And the great Bob Hoskins,

RIP. Michael Douglas was probably your most famous on-screen coupling,

as it were. But Bob Hoskins was great as well. He was marvellous.

It's always been Michael Douglas and Danny DeVito as well, always the

three of us. Danny keeps saying he wants to get the girl in the end one

of these days. We will see. You had a bad decade. I want to ask you

about pain, because in the 1990s, you had arthritis. I had rheumatoid

arthritis. It is a very difficult, incredibly painful, disease. Even

though it is not like cancer that can kill you, it can kill your

lifestyle altogether. Not being able to move meant not being able to

act. I am one of the lucky ones. I have found a job that I was meant to

do, you know, so not being able to do that... You are moving a lot on

stage. Do you like my fight scene? How about that? Me and my titania

minis, baby. You were an early supporter of John Kerry, but what

about Hillary Clinton? Will she run? I hope she does. And this time I

will absolutely back. The timing is now right, I think. -- back her. She

has proven herself in every possible way. Almost every possible way. She

has not appeared on that Sophie yet, so you should have a word with her.

I shall do so. Get over to The Andrew Marr Show. Kathleen Turner,

thank you for coming in. Looking at the violence now

engulfing Iraq, with much of the country now under the sway of

militant Islamic extremists, many have concluded that the west is now

reaping what it sowed when the US, supported

by the British government under Can the current instability be

traced back to that decision, and what should the West do now,

to prevent the situation from 11 years on from the Iraq war,

how does Mr Blair view He spoke to me

a little earlier this morning from Abu Dhabi, and agreed that events

in Iraq are desperately serious. It is vitally important we realise

what is at stake here and act, and that will require I think both

targeted action from the United States and will require, I think, a

national unity government of some sort on the Iraqi side which should

be one representative of all of the political parties, one endorsed by

the grand ayatollah and has the support of the international

community. And then we have do make sure that in respect of Syria, we

shift policy, as we have been calling for a long time, and realise

if we don't deal with the Syria issue, the problems won't just be

for the region, they will come back and hit us very directly, even in

our own country. What would it mean for the West and the Middle East if

ISIS succeeded in creating an Islamic caliphate going down to the

shores of the Mediterranean? Well, it would be a total disaster and it

must not be allowed to happen. What is important is to realise how this

has come about. It is a situation which has grown up over the last

three years and there is no point trying to deal with Iraq if we don't

accept the wider regional context, so you have to deal with Syria as

well. Yet ISIS could not have had its spectacular military successes

if Iraq had not been torn apart by civil war and a lack of authority at

the Centre for the last ten years, would it? And that is partly our

responsibility in the West. Yes, but we have to be very clear about this.

Three years ago, in Iraq, Al-Qaeda was beaten, effectively. Now it's

absolutely correct, and this is why Iraq needs a different type of

politics and a different way of governing, it is correct that their

activities and the policies of the government aiding the situation, but

we have to understand the region as a whole. Although we can have the

debate about 2003, we realise we are 11 years later in 2014, and the

single biggest thing that has changed in the region is the Arab

revolutions that have spread across the region. My point is simple. Even

if you left Saddam Hussein in place in 2003, when 2011 happened and you

have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia and Libya and the

Yemen and Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would have still had a

major problem in Iraq. Indeed, you can see what happens when you leave

the dictator in place, as happened with Bashar al-Assad. What I'm

trying to say is, we can rerun the debates about 2003 and there are

perfectly legitimate points on either side, but where we are in

2014, you have do understand that this is a regional problem but a

problem that will affect us. If you talk to security services in France

and Germany and the UK, they will tell you their single biggest worry

today are returning jihadist fighters, and our own citizens, from

Syria. We have to look at Syria and Iraq in context in the region and

understand what is going on and engage. That does not mean, by the

way, engagement as in Iraq or Afghanistan, but it does mean that

we actively try and shape this situation with our allies in the

region and don't believe that if we wash our hands and walk away that

the problems will be solved. Shape it howl? For example, we take

immediate exact -- action in the face of Iraq. In the shape of Syria,

the three years, frankly, we have had a contrast of the -- a

catastrophe unfolds, and then support the region. And those

people, they are virtually a majority in the region, who believe

in open and tolerant societies and properly run economies and

countries. Let me just say, long-term, I'm an optimist about the

region. I think these more modern minded people will win. . Are we

talking about drone strikes, the provision of military equipment to

the Iraqi government, but the fightback is being led by Iranians

military commanders. President Obama is saying all options are on the

table and he will be debating with his military commanders what the

best way forward is. Whether that is through drones of fighters or

whatever is the right and appropriate response. The key thing

that they need to know is that they will not be able to continue that

push unhindered, and as for the Iranians help, the many Iraqis, they

will want to make sure that they are not simply dependent on Iran.

Iranians support might be one aspect to this, but for the Iraqis who

believe passionately in the independence of their country, they

will want that to be treated with some caution. What about putting

special forces in. What about Britain's role? Britain has to

coordinate closely with the US. I won't put forward any options, and

the key point is to understand that we need to engage with it, and if we

don't, the consequences will come back on us. Reading your essay, a

lot of people will conclude, is there the sense of urgency. We don't

need to go back to war in the way we were in Iraq or Afghanistan. The

only alternatives are doing nothing will stop there are a myriad set of

responses in only alternatives are doing nothing

will stop there are a myriad between as we did in Libya, and intervention

is tough. Nonintervention is tough, but the best policy for us is to

realise that whatever form of intervention we choose, it will be

difficult, but better than the alternative, which is to stick it

out, and as we see in Syria the appalling results of such a policy.

Yet where we have intervened, notably in Iraq, we are partly

responsible for what has happened. In Iraq we have seen so many years

of instability, and now this, that when we revisit the things you were

saying at the time, about Iraq becoming a beacon of peace and

stability, you must acknowledge there was an element of naivete in

that. I acknowledge our hopes were not fulfil. Even in the last few

weeks, millions of people, even a higher percent of people voted

higher than in the elections in America and they have produced a

regime that has noticeably failed to hold Iraq together and has been

sectarian. Macro yellow that has contributed to the problem.

Sometimes people talk about Iraq in 2003 like it was stable. You are

subject to appalling repression if you occurred or a Shia Muslim. Two

wars had been started in the region -- if you were a Kurd. The first

decisions I took well with President Clinton, not George Bush, so the

idea that Iraqi would be stable is not credible -- Iraq. The question

is, whether we from here. I accept that, but at the time, you said it

would make Iraq a safer and more stable place and that has clearly

not happened, has it? Absolutely, and as I constantly said, and I take

full responsibility of the list... So you take full responsibility for

the problem? I have constantly said that what we underestimated about

Iraq, Afghanistan, the whole of the region, is that once you remove the

dictatorship, outcomes this tribal ethnic and above all religious

tension and then you are engaged in a different type of struggle, and my

plea is, you don't have to engage like we did in Afghanistan, but you

have to recognise we have interests, and if these people are allowed to

grow these extremist groups, they will pose a threat in our own

borders. Hillary Clinton says she deeply regrets her support for the

war and David Miliband has said the same thing. What do you think about

the word regret that original decision? As I've said many times,

of course you regret the loss of life and the difficulties we

encountered. But if you say to me, would I prefer a situation where we

left Saddam Hussein in 2003, do I think the region would be safer or

more stable if we done that, my answer to that is unhesitatingly no.

Fighters are being exported back to the West from Syria and elsewhere, a

jihadist movement regaining power and confidence in the Middle East

and we have the debate in Britain about the way that Muslims in

British laws are being educated. Do you agree with the Prime Minister

that it is time to reassert British values much more -- in a much more

muscular way, if you like? The phrase is draining the swamp of

Islamic fundamentalism in schools and communities, or do you think it

is a small number of extremist not connected to mainstream conservative

Islam? I have a clear view of this. There is a fundamental problem that

we face that originated in the region and has spread across the

world, and that problem is extremism based on a warped and abusive view

of the religion. It is a problem here in the region. It's a problem

in countries like Pakistan. It is a problem in the east. We can see from

Nigeria it is a problem in African countries and in our own society, as

we can see from the issue with the Birmingham schools. It is not a

question of reasserting just British values. We have do assert the strong

values of religious respect and tolerance for difference, in other

words, to say the only way that a modern economy and modern society

can work is it people of different faiths learn to live with each

other, respect each other and treat each other equally and fairly. Any

politics that is based on a view that this is my religion, or this is

my view of my religion and if you don't agree, you are my enemy, that

is the ideology we have to attack and root out. Finally, Mr Blair,

your own role, will you stay as a member of the quartet? Do you think

you have a role in trying to put back together the mess that is the

Middle East? Despite the difficulties, I want to keep working

at this, I have spent a lot of time in this region, thinking about this

and I want to contribute. Not back to the commerce guise of Brussels?

Absolutely not. -- grey skies. Thank you.

The newest member of the Cabinet, Culture Secretary Sajid Javid,

The first of the 2010 intake and the first British Asian MP to

The son of a Pakistani bus driver, state educated with a hugely

successful career in banking before he entered Parliament.

So how will all that shape his approach to the job,

which is one of the most wide-ranging in government, covering

everything from football to theatre, press regulation and the BBC?

Sajid Javid joins me now for his first appearance on the show.

I will start by asking about that Tony Blair interview, do you agree

with what is going on? Is an acre dastardly? It is a huge worry, I

utterly condemn the action. -- is this a catastrophe. It is worrying

for the world. It is up to the elected government to decide how to

respond and what is particularly sad is that if you weeks ago, millions

of Iraqis went to the polls, they are elected the new government and

there was a great show of democracy and we have this going on in this

volatile country. Does the intervention of Tony Blair help or

hinder this? When it comes to the Middle East, he has a lock to say

and it is important to focus on what is going on, on the ground. We will

help with humanitarian aid and Justine Greening is looking at ways

we can provide that. It is very important, this region, and it has

an impact across the globe. There will not be British jets flying over

Baghdad? We have no plans for intervention. You have been

bombarded with endless theatre and music and the rest, what has stood

out? This is a very small department but it actually affects millions of

lives. There are theatres and music and dance and all parts of the

cultural sector involved and that is what makes it important. I have been

focusing on recognising just how important the creative industry is,

in terms of the contribution to the economy, we have the biggest

creative sector in Europe with millions of people employed. Just as

important as economic contribution is the social value of the cultural

sector. That is an eloquent defence but what gets your juices going?

What do you really enjoy? I have really enjoyed going to the theatre

with my children to see what they want to see and the last thing was

warhorse with my younger daughter. The things that I like are not

obvious, I went to see a production in Birmingham, about a British Asian

family, which reminded me of my roots. I also like music. There is a

wide variety of things. It is not to determine what is good and what is

not, there is a huge variety of tastes. That is why this sector is

so vibrant, my job is to remain -- make sure it remains so. That is

something I have been focused on in my speech recently about culture for

all people. Will you be dragged out to see England playing football? I

would not use that word. I will be going to the third match with Costa

Rica. And I am looking forward to that and I will support the team but

I will also be banging the drum is for British business. Those

Thatcherite admirers of you, we have a Culture Secretary who will say,

this department does not need to exist. They will be disappointed? It

is a very important department and it touches so much of our lives, and

the equality work that I do also, what the government has achieved in

that area. The biggest thing longer term is the BBC. Is the trust fit

for purpose? The BBC trust has an important role and one job I was not

expecting was the resignation of Lord Patten so what I am focused on

is finding a replacement and a new chairman and I want them to be the

best person for the job. That will take up quite some of my time. Is

the trust, you think it should stay? That is a very important decision

and it is something we should look at with the charter review. There is

a charter that sets out how the BBC works, ten year charter. I will not

start that charter review until after the election because I think

it is right to start when we have the new chairman. I want to gauge

your own instincts because clearly it is hugely controversial, lots of

newspapers would like to see the BBC disappear. Others say it is a longer

time for the licence fee. Even the Labour Party is talking about that.

What about the licensee? One thing we already did when we came to

government is we worked with the BBC to freeze the licensee and I still

think it is a large amount for many families. It is too high? No, I

think this needs to be looked at when you have the charter review but

another point is since the last review, technology has changed. The

number of people who consume platforms like online, even the

iPlayer, so that as being a very big change and that if needs to take all

of this into account. Have you seen an alternative funding method?

Freckly, I have not looked at that because we have not started this

review but I think all of these issues should be looked at and

nothing should be ruled out. What position do you take on the argument

between London and the Metropolitan theatres and galleries? The Opera

house and those bigger institutions take a disproportionate share of the

Getty? London is strangling the arts in many other areas? I am very proud

of this sector and London is a powerhouse not just for our own

country but globally, it is a very vague exporter. But I do understand

that argument and when I made a speech on this issue, not just

talking about regions and fair distribution but also getting more

people from all backgrounds participating in culture. This is

one of the things I wanted to look at. What I have found is it is

improving, a lot of the government that the

at. What I have found is it is improving, a lot government provides

goes through the Arts Council and, historically, it was about 70%, 60%

to the regions and it is not about 70%. But I want to see what can be

done. Looking across the broad sweep of the department, where are things

not going as well? One thing I would say is not banned. My department is

responsible for that run out and coverage and that is something we

have made huge progress on, in terms of superfast broadband with better

coverage than almost any other European country. But we can do

more, and in my own constituency, it is semi-rural, there are still many

people who do not have her fact broadband coverage. -- perfect. What

about extremism in schools? David Cameron says people must be more

British. Is a problem of not just terrorism but conservative Islam,

saying we want to cut ourselves off from the rest of the community and

we want security of belief? That is a serious issue and we have seen

that with enquiries in the schools in Birmingham and those results from

Ofsted. It is important to point out that the vast majority of British

Muslim 's are hugely important in the community and play the same role

as everybody else. -- Muslim cleric. -- Muslim cleric. They can have a

very big impact. -- Muslims. As a man from a Muslim background, how do

you react to language like draining the swamp? You can use all sorts of

language but everybody recognises the issue. The Prime Minister has

talked about taking a more muscular attitude to promoting British

values, something I have long thought we should be doing. That is

very important. And I look forward to doing that. Thank you.

Now over to Sian for the news headlines.

The former Prime Minister Tony Blair has told this programme that

the West must be prepared to intervene in Iraq to prevent

He said the situation was desperately

serious and if not checked, would have repercussions for Britain.

Speaking from Abu Dhabi, he said President Obama was right

to consider all options, including air strikes and the use of drones.

We have to look at Syria and Iraq and the region in context and we

must understand what is going on and we have to engage and that does not

mean engagement with ground troops but it does mean that we actively

shape this situation with allies in the region and I do not believe that

if we just wash our hands and walk away, the problems will be solved.

First, a look at what's coming up immediately after this programme.

Join us live from Brighton, and Cameron announces British values and

we ask, should the British stop tolerating intolerance? -- David

Cameron. John Simpson has arrived in the Iraqi capital. What is the

atmosphere there? Does it feel entrenched? It feels like a very

nervous place, yes. By pure chance, I did and then to a government

minister that I know and he said that last week, last Thursday, the

government was in a state of utter panic and people were finding it

difficult even to speak to each other and put sentences together to

know what to do about this. But he said that has calmed things down and

this increase in the number of people coming forward, volunteering

to fight, it has its own problems because they are fighters and that

could lead to other problems later on. It has calmed down a lot of the

nerves for the moment. Tony Blair spoke earlier on, urging aerial

western intervention. Air attacks in Syria and in Iraq as well. How

helpful to you think that has been? -- do you think. I expect he will be

quite grateful for the government. What they most of all want is some

sign that they are not just in this on their own and with drones and

bombing and so on, that is a way of doing that. It is not the answer. It

is not the answer at all. It is just a tactic, it temporarily tactic and

it could go terribly wrong, as it did in Afghanistan. But it is

something they could do. Thank you very much.

That's all we have time for, thanks to all my guests.

Do join me again at the same time next week,

when I'll be talking to the Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna,

Nicola Benedetti and the inimitable nonagenerian, Baroness Trumpington.

We are about to find out whether they can cook.

You're going to love it. Smashed it. Yum-yum-yum.