29/06/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

It's very rare, in my experience, that The Times

and The Guardian go for the same headline on a big political story.

"Britain Closer to EU Exit After Juncker Vote".

If they're right, and most of this morning's papers

agree too, this is a pivotal moment in Britain's political history.

Reviewing the papers today, the UK Correspondent

for 'France 24', Benedicte Paviot, and in the week that Rebekah Brooks

was cleared of all charges in the phone hacking scandal,

the former Director of Public Prosecutions, Sir Keir Starmer.

Almost every newspaper agreed that David Cameron was right to try to

stop the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker,

a devout European Federalist, as the next Commission President.

But they mostly thought his tactics had been terrible too.

Now the Prime Minister's left committed

to a referendum but in circumstances where Britain seems to be losing

the arguments, and therefore taking us towards leaving the EU.

I'll be joined later by the Foreign Secretary, William Hague to discuss

Plus, I'll be asking him about the crisis in Iraq,

One country feeling the heat as the ISIS rampage in Iraq

As the kingdom goes on high alert, I'll be talking to the

Jordanian Foreign Minister live from the capital.

At home the economy continues to improve,

What's Labour going to say about it now?

Ed Balls, the Shadow Chancellor joins us this morning.

Some of the best TV drama and comedy of the past decade has

He's going to take to the stage soon as Shakespeare's most

I'll be talking to him later about hunchbacks and Hobbits.

Finally, away from the Hobbits and the mud that is Glastonbury

we're joined by one of modern rocks most iconic singers.

Chrissie Hynde is going solo, but with a little help

The Iraqi government has received its first batch

It's hoping the jets will help it to gain the upper hand,

in the battle for the northern city of Tikrit which was seized by Sunni

There are conflicting reports about who is now in control there.

Armoured vehicles on their way into Tikrit. State media say the Iraqi

army is now in control of the city. After a major offensive involving

troops, backed by tanks and helicopters. But Sunni Muslim

militants who took the city more than two weeks ago disagree and have

implied that the government offensive failed. Elsewhere, the

rebels are still in control of large swathes of the north and west of the

country. These unverified pictures claimed to show burnt out cars and

empty streets inside Tikrit, the scars of heavy fighting inside the

city. To is significant because it is the former hometown of hat --

Saddam Hussein -- Tikrit is significant. The majority of people

who live here are Sunni Muslims, but we were told that most people have

left, including these people who have travelled to Kirkuk in search

of safety. The Iraqi army say these jets will boost their military

capability. These second-hand fighter jets are the first batch

ordered from Russia. The Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, has said

he hopes the jet will destroy the terrorist bases. If the Iraqi army

have indeed recaptured Tikrit, it will be a significant strategic

boost, particularly for the Prime Minister, who is facing growing

calls to step down. The outgoing deputy governor

of the Bank of England has said interest rates are unlikely to

return to pre-recession levels of But Sir Charlie Bean, who's been

in charge of monetary policy at the Bank, says it's reasonable to

expect the base rate to rise to 2.5% Homeowners have enjoyed

an historically low 0.5% base rate The Labour leader,

Ed Miliband has been setting out ideas to boost growth and help

businesses, including a transfer of ?30 billion of central government

funding, to cities and regions. Writing in the Sunday Times,

Mr Miliband says he wants a quarter of government contracts to

go to smaller companies. The party is also planning to

crackdown Details of how good GPs in England

are at detecting and referring cases of cancer could soon be published

online under government plans to The Royal College

of GPs says rating surgeries in this way would be "crude", but the Health

Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, is concerned that people are being forced to wait

too long for treatment. The former Education Secretary,

David Blunkett, has said that the Prince of Wales tried to

persuade Tony Blair's government to Mr Blunkett is

among three former ministers who have spoken for a radio documentary,

about attempts by the Prince to All three say they welcomed

their conversations with him. I'll be back with the headlines

just before ten o'clock. The kingdom of Jordan is right

on the frontline of the growing Last week there was an emergency

call-up of the Jordanian army to Apart from the threat of ISIS

on its frontiers, Jordan is also I'm joined now from Amman, by

the Foreign Minister, Nasser Judeh. Thank you for joining us. How

concerned are you about the threat on your border? All in a days work.

We have seen violence in Syria across our northern border for the

last three and a half years and we have seen violence and turbulence in

western Iraq for the last few years. This is a more recent development.

The report indicated that the army had gone to emergency mode. No, like

I said, we are monitoring the situation closely. Don't forget that

ISIS is there because of what is happening in Iraq and Syria. You say

that it is all in a days work, but as far as they are concerned, your

country does not exist, it is part of their caliphate. They have been

very, very aggressive in other parts of the Middle East. Why do you think

they are not coming in your direction? There have been so many

people and organisations and entities who have said that Jordan

does not exist, historically, for 100 years. They have gone, and we

are still around. But can you defend your country if ISIS attack? Is the

army strong enough to head off what is a very, very large insurgency? Of

course the armed forces are not only strong enough, but we are vigilant.

Don't forget they have a responsibility to patrol and protect

a 180 kilometre border with Iraq, a 380 kilometre border with Syria, and

in the past when we were technically in a state of war with Israel we had

to patrol a 600 kilometre border which we now patrol to maintain

peace. I think everybody can testify that when it comes to the

professionalism and the training and the high standards of the Jordan

Armed Forces, that is fine, but that is not the point. Incidentally, on

the Syrian border we have allowed 640,000 refugees across it while

patrolling it in a very orderly way, so it's not about what Jordan can

and cannot do. If it faces a threat, it will face it head on, and those

who want to threaten Jordan will face the full might of Jordan

defending itself. A lot of people in the Middle East are blaming the

Prime Minister in Baghdad, Nouri al-Maliki, for being too sectarian

and a big part of the problem. What is your view? In Jordan, we are not

normally in the business of interfering in the internal affairs

of other countries, but what we do say that what is happening in Syria

and Iraq threatens the stability of the region and by extension, the

whole world. There are even foreign fighters from your country owing

back and forward. The last estimate was 500 UK fighters error reports by

some security officials in the UK that it would be impossible to keep

track of them -- and there are reports. But this latest report --

development in Iraq is too much. It's the rise and spread of

extremism because of what happened in Syria, and secondly the

atmosphere in Iraq is so divisive in an ethnic and sectarian way that the

conditions will just be right for something like this to happen. There

are ups and downs. I believe we should have an inclusive political

process that does not exclude any component of Iraqi society so we can

get out of this mess. So you have to deal with your borders, you have a

huge refugee crisis in the country and you have a home-grown extremist

movement inside your country as well. Have you got them under

control? Yes, there is freedom of speech here. I think sometimes

people put one and one together and make a lot more than two when it

comes to demonstrations taking place on a small scale. Given the

extremely polarised politics of the Middle East, when we have the Iraq

war we had people against and supporting it. When we had

development in the Palestinian and Israeli problems, there are people

on both sides of the divide everywhere in the world. Freedom of

speech and seeing sometimes ugly images does not necessarily

represent the entire country, so what we have in Jordan is a social

and political cohesiveness, which, by the way, is the biggest defence

against ISIS or anyone else trying to threaten us. I smiled to myself

and I was passing through London as I was asked by a journalist if ISIS

was already in Jordan because they had announced that they were. I said

to take the journalists of the border to take a look for

themselves. I sometimes people think look at the map and do not take in

the quality and demographically of the country. Abu Qatada is perhaps

not the most popular in Britain and he has just been released. Some

people say there is a political game going on in your country, suggesting

he is there to confront even more extreme voices. It is a burden of

course, and we are asking for the international community to continue

helping with the refugee situation, but to help host communities in

Jordan rather than the camps, because only 10% of the refugees are

in those camps. We have 1.4 million sitting outside Jordan. On Abu

Qatada, the judiciary in Jordan is independent. We do not interfere,

just like it is in your country. There was this innocence on the

latest charge, but there will be other trials as well. Minister,

thank you for joining us. The admirably relaxed Foreign Minister

of Jordan. And with me to review the papers are

Keir Starmer and Benedicte Paviot. The big story is the fallout from

the John Claude Junker decision. You have chosen the Sunday Telegraph. --

Juncker. The papers are full of different takes on this. I think

what is clearly what Mr Cameron has managed to do is not just irritate

the other EU countries, he has fought a battle that he was clearly

not going to win, just a mathematics. We knew that was the

case. Sometimes you have to fight a battle that you won't win. Yes, but

so be it. When Jeremy Hunt comes out and very publicly, yesterday,

outside of this building, talks about cowards without naming

anybody, I think it's interesting when the Daily Telegraph talks about

Angela Merkel changing her position and that the lady was not returning,

but she had changed her position. and that the lady was not returning,

but she had Possibly Mr Juncker was the wrong person, but she was going

to back him. I think it is dangerous, this kind of talk. Mr

Cameron has to appeal not just do his future allies in the EU. We

thought it was Sweden and a few other Nordic countries, but when it

came to the crunch, he only had one other country that supported him.

Presumably the cowards jibe is aimed at them, and maybe Angela Merkel.

Yes, and Angela Merkel will look at these newspapers. An interesting

briefing came about the other day. In the backroom chats with the

British government, with foreign governors, including the French

government. An interesting word was pronounced, that the British

conversations were not about breaking off the relationship. So

there is a lot of bluster and public positioning for a domestic audience

ten months away from an election, but actually one has to be very

careful with this talk or Britain will walk itself into an exit very

quickly. Keir. I said at the beginning, to newspapers saying that

Britain is heading for the exit the Europe, more than two papers, and

that is how it looks. The real battle is the one that is coming,

the one for reform and the strategy adopted by the Prime Minister. It

looks as though it will be the same, and that is why it is so

profound. It does take us closer to exit from the EU and this is a

serious issue. Personally, it probably takes the Conservative

Party much closer to fracture. If they win the election and go into

this referendum, with this behind them. They themselves are talking

about the calm laws so that shows you how they are thinking about it.

That fracture looks more and more likely. The other big story is the

fallout from the Rebekah Brooks trial. It has cost ?30 million in

police time, ?100 million for the trial and at no point was there a

single piece of evidence linking her directly to the phone hacking.

Surely this is a trial that shouldn't have happened.

Observer asks the question if anything has changed. I think that

is the right question. What has been exposed is widespread hacking at a

high level and the question is who knew about it. Has anything really

changed? The answer to that is yes. Before this trial, there was a

feeling that journalists were above the law. I don't think there is that

feeling any more. You would say that even though there wasn't that

crucial piece of evidence linking her, it was worth it because it has

changed the culture. The judge determined that there was a case to

changed the culture. The judge answer, she answered it and I fully

respect the verdict. We must respect that fully, but the deeper question

is, is anybody above the law? You do have these profound moments in legal

cases. We had it with Parliamentary expenses. It defines how we go

forward. This will change... She has gone through a long, traumatic trial

without a piece of evidence against her and if it is to simply change

the culture, that is pretty rough on her, isn't it? No, the case was to

establish watching you. You will often have cases where there is not

a critical piece of evidence. There was clearly a case to answer, the

judge ruled on that a number of times. She came forward and she

answered. A lot of people say that News International's lawyers were

the best in the business and that the state is not paying for the top

dollar best in the business prosecutors to take them on. Do you

think that is fair? How much public money do you spend on a really top

lawyer to take on a really top lawyer in a case like this? I have

seen those discussions. The Crown Prosecution Service did have a top

lawyer leading the team and top lawyers within the team so I don't

think this case was determined by the rates of pay or the super clever

lawyers. It was determined by the jury and that is where we leave it.

Let's move on to a related story on the Independent alleging that News

International worth paying for the phone details of a double agent

inside the IRA. Yes, and he will forgive me if I have not pronounced

his name correctly, and it seems there are more questions to answer

for the Murdoch group because it seems they have paid ?850 for his

phone records. This seems like if there wasn't a smoking gun... This

links nicely to the Rebekah Brooks story because while it is true to

say there is nobody above the law, there has to be a public interest in

journalists doing their business and not every transgression should be

prosecuted. So there might have been a very good reason? I don't think we

should lead to the position that everybody should be prosecuted

because journalists do serve the public interest in what they do and

that has to be preserved. I was very clear in the guidelines I issued

about that. And what must be changed is the promiscuity between

politicians and the media. We in the media have two ask serious questions

but it is important that there be that transparent and for example

some of the meetings of the Prime Minister will be known. Let's move

to a politician... Ed Miliband. This is a story about John Crudas, and

the Sunday Times has a tape recording of some of the comments he

made last weekend. Actually it is about the tension between the

long-term policy review that Labour is undertaking and the short-term

policy announcements and the need for those to synchronise. It is

between those who want big policy changes and those who say we need to

drip out policies bit by bit and who is winning. You need both but you

need to synchronise those with ten and a half months ago until the

election. If Labour can synchronise that, it will be heading in the

right direction. I think with ten months ago, we can expect more

stories like this because the more it looks like Labour will win the

election, the more we will see this sort of story. Can Ed Miliband

simply ride months of personal attacks across the media? Moving

away from bacon sandwiches and beyond that. Would people rather

have someone who has good ideas, is strong on the real things that

matter? The next general election is probably the most important one for

a generation and Ed Miliband has the idea is to see that through. The

bacon sandwich is neither here nor there. The important thing is how he

is doing in the polls. Now onto ISIS. Yes, and it was interesting,

your interview with the Jordanian minister. He was a relaxed fellow,

wasn't he? Yes, I felt a strong influence of a very good British

education. As cool as a cucumber. Certainly he was playing it down,

saying indeed, what, all in a day's work if I quote him correctly, well

it is not because these strange alliances are being made and this

article in the Observer talks about these new alliances bringing old

enemies together. It is interesting because it does seem to be so, Iran,

the US, Shia militias, and there does seem to be some choreography

for example by the Syrians coming and bombing borderlines inside

Iraq. We have this situation where the Russian jets will save Baghdad,

we have got Putin, the Iranians and the Iraqis all on the same side. It

is not great diplomacy, is it? It is not, and when you read that this

really... I mean how did it happen so quickly in this time of

technology? How come we are only finding out about it now? The main

base of ISIS is a Central Hospital in Aleppo. We are running out of

time, let's have some jolly stories. George Clooney here. This

is in the Observer, and it is about George Clooney and his partner, who

was a colleague of mine. Will you be at the wedding? It is tough. I tried

to persuade my wife but she was not having any of that. His partner is a

fantastic international lawyer and we must not lose the woman in the

story. She just wrote a book about 11 trial. Let's remember her

brilliance as a lawyer. Some people might have noticed there is a slight

Labour note in what you were saying. What is your future as an

individual? Will you be joining the Senate of lily pot? If and when I

make my decision about the future, I will make sure you are one of the

first to know. One of the first? The first to know! Lots of Wimbledon to

look forward to this week, that must mean rain? Over to the weather

studio. Actually it doesn't have to mean rain, in fact I think we

deserve some fine weather today. There will be fewer showers across

the south of the UK. There is still cloud around, this area of cloud

around East Yorkshire and into east Lincolnshire, and East Anglia, there

is some rain here, but yesterday we had far more heavy showers around

across the country. Today it is much better. Plenty of brightness to

come, albeit on the hazy side. As far as tonight is concerned, chilly

in the countryside, we could get temperatures down to 5 degrees in

the countryside. Tomorrow I'm pleased to say another fine day on

the way and the next few days are looking pretty sunny and warm,

particularly across the southern half of the UK. Temperatures

reaching 23, but look out for some rain heading into Devon and

Cornwall. With the recovery apparently

on course, unemployment falling, inflation low,

is it time for a change of emphasis from the opposition?

Will the cost of living crisis feel as acute by

the time of the general election? Ed Balls is with me now. You are

going to have to change your tone if not your policy? The European

elections were a wake-up call for every party because the country were

saying that you may say there is a recovery, but living standards are

falling month on month and not getting better. I think out there in

the country people are saying, who will deliver an economy that works

for me? They are not saying George Osborne. Labour has the vision to

answer that question. Unemployment is getting much lower, inflation is

not a problem, you have another ten months or so before the election

with consistently good economic news. You cannot say it is all

terrible, can you? The living standards have been flat and

stagnant for over a decade. George Osborne can say complacently my plan

is working, most people are saying that just makes you completely out

of touch. There is a deeper issue we have to solve, which is how to make

sure if the economy is getting better how that is shared with the

rest of the country. I think it is complacent to say things are going

well at the moment. So John Crudas says it is the big reforms that are

being parked, let's talk about some. What about your plans for the

north? You are going to take what 30 billion from the central government

and give it to the northern cities, is that right? Yes, I understand his

frustration about a newspaper headline. We have all been in a

situation where a big speech is reduced to one policy. John Crudas,

with me and Ed Miliband and others, have been working on policies. One

aspect of that is saying that if we are going to have jobs and growth,

four fifths of the new jobs have been in London since 2010, we have

got to have more devolution of power, housing spending, job skills,

business support. Why is he talking about the dead hand of the Labour

centre? I don't think he is because he is part of the Labour centre and

we are working together on these reforms. It is always going to be

frustrating... It is quite an attack on the way things are going from a

frustrated man, clearly. I spoke to John a couple of days ago and he is

not restricted, he is excited about policy agenda. He is frustrated

about how one report gets reduced down... It is the way we live and

that is how it goes. We have reports this week on long-term

infrastructure spending, new manufacturing policy, big changes

which are not really on George Osborne's agenda. Let's talk about

one big change, last time Ed Miliband was on he said the current

system of rail privatisation was not working and he is open to offers.

There has been talk of creeping nationalisation, is that on your

agenda? We want a more strategic approach to the railways. The fact

that network rail is back on the balance sheet, that provides an

opportunity. The franchising process has delivered more passenger numbers

and there's been big public investment, but on the East Coast,

that's a public operator who are doing a good job. Why not spread

that idea? We want to say that doing a good job. Why not spread

that idea? We want to this is not about nationalisation or

privatisation, but let's make sure the franchising process gets the

best deal for the taxpayer and passengers and on the fairs.

Matching the investment with reform. I'm not going to say it's a matter

of ideology that it should always be private or public, but if the East

Coast line wants to bid into the process, that is a good thing. You

want to see more investment in infrastructure. Andrew Adonis is

behind your policy review and said you could simply take back the

railway system bit by bit by not reopening the bidding process when

one franchise comes to an end. As I said, I think it's a good thing for

us to say in the bidding process that we are happy for private and

East Coast on a fairly level playing field. I won't take an ideological

approach. I don't want to go back to the nationalisation of the 70s. Some

people would say that some of these franchises have operated an unfair

way to consumers, and in the East Coast situation, it fail. But we

won't see any great renationalisation of the railway

system under Labour? I don't think people want to go to the British

rail of the 1970s. That's not what I was saying. I was talking about an

overall state-owned system with lots of companies inside it. There is big

public investment going into a track infrastructure which is now

state-owned and on the balance sheet because Network Rail is there. That

investment is going in from the public sector but we want to get

value for money and the best deal on fares and the passengers in the

future, and the right way to do it is to say we have a competitive

process, the leading playing field -- on a level playing field, but

East Coast, which is currently in public ownership, or a non-private

franchise, back in bid into the process, and that is a good thing.

So we might seek a creeping system of effective nationalisation, but we

won't talk about that. It is a national system already. Let's move

to Europe, another big story. Do you think Britain is heading towards the

exit door? David Cameron has told us that that is what he seems to be

doing after this summit. I'm really worried about where we are. I think

this weekend was a catastrophe for Britain and the British national

interest. I've never seen a negotiation soap cack-handed. -- so

cack-handed. But from a party who left the EVP and walked out of the

summit two years ago because he was bowing to party pressure, what do

you expect? We won't be influential in the world unless we are

influential in Europe. So you have been the party that would have

allowed Juncker's name to go forward? We would have said what was

the vision for Europe, and we need reform. But that is what Cameron was

saying. No, he didn't. He went into the summit and said give me

something because my party demands and I need the head of Jean-Claude

Juncker. People in the rest of Europe said, we won't be treated in

that way. You cannot dictate to us on the basis of a party agenda.

Given the Juncker is an avowed old-fashioned Federalist you can see

why he did not think he would be the best man to lead the EU in the next

few years, so he was right about that. Yes, and that was our view.

But the issue is, why did he fail so catastrophically to persuade anybody

to join him? He said that in private they were supporting him and in

public they didn't. What has happened when the British Prime

Minister cannot win an argument, because if he is associated with it,

other people peel away? I'm not sure how you would have done it

differently. We would have gone in and said we needed reform in Europe

and the test that this is which candidate can deliver the reform. I

don't think Jean-Claude Juncker was the best candidate. But that means

you would not have demanded his head? To going that way and

blackmail people. So it was about tone and tactics? The battle was

right, but the way it was wrong? But it goes to the deeper point about

what he is his European policy does he think we should be in Europe? I

do. I think we will only be influential in the world if we are

influential in Europe. He says he wants reform but he can't tell us

what they are. He has set an arbitrary timetable for a referendum

that everybody knows is deeply destabilising. Why has he done that?

Because his European policy is not being decided by national interest,

Britain's future, jobs, investment, but by Tory backbenchers. He is on

the back foot and he has lost control. I think it is catastrophic

Britain. Is the Labour Party going to come forward and argue more

vociferously for Europe? If there's a referendum, somebody will have to

take role. Labour is absolutely united. We want to stay in Europe,

but we want tough reforms, on immigration rules, the CHP, the

budget, but a year ago, David Cameron said he wanted to launch a

pro-European campaign. 12 months on, that looks to be a complete shambles

and a sham. Let's be clear, the Labour position on a referendum

after the latest election is no, unless there is a huge change

question any transfer of Britain to Brussels, we would have the in out

referendum. Otherwise not? Setting an arbitrary timetable is deeply

destabilising, bad for business and jobs and investment, and bad for

Britain. The right thing to do is to argue for reforms, but we have to be

listened to and we are not at the moment. We are not, but we have run

out of time. Ed Balls, thank you for that.

From Middle Earth to Middle England, audiences have loved

Martin Freeman's portrayals of Bilbo Baggins and Dr Watson.

You know him from The Office, Sherlock and perhaps most recently,

Now he's back in London rehearsing for the role of a lifetime on stage:

Shakespeare's villainous Richard III.

You have a Richard III beard already. Do you have the hump? Not

with me. There has been a huge amount of interest in ISIS because

he was discovered underneath the car parking Leicester -- interesting

Richard III. It turns out he did not have the hump. The Shakespeare

wanted, but that is the difference between the historical thing of

academic interest, but the dramatic you have to play Shakespeare's

version. There's no point coming on and saying we know about the real

one, so let's play that one, because that is not Shakespeare wrote. You

will be hump it up. You can put it that way. It is one of those huge

roles, and it's in the early stages of planning, but we have seen Kevin

Spacey do a wonderful Richard III recently. How will this be

different? We hear rumours about it being set in the 1970s? It is set in

and around the world where if if it is to be believed, and I do believe

it that there was a tentative coup planned during the Wilson government

in the mid-70s. I believe enough of the documentary evidence that I've

heard about that that plans were being laid. Some people were

planning? Absolutely. So it is set around that time. I first met the

director, Jamie Lloyd, and I don't know if you've ever seen this

documentary about Wilson being overthrown. And I said I watched it

last week because I spent a silly amount of time watching political

documentaries on you Tube. And that was a very interesting tack to go

down, I think. It was felt that in rehearsal, it might have made this

centuries-old play film them, and that is because Shakespeare is a

brilliant writer but it feels almost like a 70s play. You have a young

director who is known for stripping out bits of Shakespeare if he thinks

they are boring. Is he doing it again this time? Yes, we are,

Brackley. I think Jamie has cut the play judiciously and well -- we

are, frankly. There can be a conspiracy of silence amongst people

going to see Shakespeare, very educated, smart people, theatre

literate, who tolerate the boring bits and the boring passengers

without telling anyone -- boring passengers.

So you are bringing in a younger audience, presumably? We are doing

it at the Trafalgar Studios, and they are hell bent on bringing in

young people, people who have never been to the theatre before. Every

Monday every seat in the theatre is ?15. This will be different from the

classic Martin Freeman performance. I didn't know there was one. Again

and again in your characters, you are cheerful, and I know you hate

the phrase every man, although I did just use it. And I am sorry. Then

something turns and you snap, and the inner rage comes out. But the

inner rage will be there at the beginning. It is, but like with, and

I don't think it's just me, any actor who plays leading characters

in something, there is a reason that you have to follow that character

around. Bruno Ganz, who played Hitler, in Downfall, you have to

find a vulnerable person in Hitler, but he did it. If you're going to

follow a character but two or three hours you need to like something

about them. Shakespeare does a fantastic job of preventing the

person as a villain but an attractive person to spend time

with. We are attracted by the great mind? He has a great wit, and more

than a twinkle in his eye. In terms of other characters, I have been

watching Fargo and it really is interesting, because you turn that

on and you know it is set in the midwest of America, in the snow, and

there is Martin Freeman in the middle of it, but you have got a

pretty good action. Let's have a little snatch of it. I'd like to

report shots fired. This is a non-emergency number, you should

have dialled 911. I can confirm gunshots, really loud. About ten

seconds ago. It sounded like they came from inside one of the shops.

OK, sure. It's great fun, Fargo, but I have to say, you are one of a huge

number of British actors moving to the States, with great American

voices. Do you get abuse from American actors? They might be

worried that the British have taken all the roles. They might be, but

they are too gracious. And for some reason there does seem to be a lot

of us, and I don't know if it is we are cheap or more attuned to it. I

think we are more attuned to accidents. If you grow up in

Britain, with the twin things of rock 'n' roll and Hollywood you hear

a lot of American voices and that is not reciprocated. They would know

the difference between Liverpool, Glasgow and Newcastle. We have one

huge thing to come. I know you felt emotional when you stop doing the

Hobbit, but are you at the phase where you never want to see it

again? I'm definitely not at that phase. I'm proud of it and proud to

be part of it. It's been a huge part of the last three or four years of

my life. I love doing it and I like seeing them when they come out. You

made a very fine hobbit. Privilege to have you on the sofa. Richard III

opens in July in the West End. As we heard from the Jordanian

Foreign Minister earlier, the ISIS surge in Iraq is threatening to

further inflame the region The Foreign Secretary,

William Hague has just returned from Baghdad where he held crisis

talks with the Iraqi government. Mr Hague joins me now from Chevening

in Kent. Did you tell Nouri al-Maliki it was

time to go? I said that Iraq needed a new and inclusive government, but

it's absolutely vital that Shia Muslim, sunny, Kurds all work

together. It's not for us to determine who is the Prime Minister

of Iraq, but they need to hear it from the rest of the world that

there needs to be political unity in Iraq, security operations will only

work in that context. We can only have them working with strong

political board from all elements in Iraq, which is why we went to talk

to the Kurdish leaders, and I think there is a strong consciousness of

that, but the big test will come when the Iraqi parliament meets on

Tuesday of this week. In your view, is Mr Maliki the sort of person to

unite Iraq? As I say, it is for us, and it would help anybody, for us to

pronounce who should be primaries -- it isn't for us. There has been a

failure in recent years to bring together Iraqi leaders and people

out of their sectarian divisions. No one has succeeded in doing that in

Iraq in the last eight years or so. So clearly they need a new more

inclusive government where people have a sense of genuine

partnership. They are facing a lethal threat, a mortal threat. So I

really impressed on them the need for everybody to work together and

the extent to which the rest of the world can help them will largely be

determined by their determination to do that. What does it say for

Western intervention that the Maliki government has had to rely on jets

from Belarus and Russia to protect them, nothing from us at all? These

are purchases you are talking about, not an intervention by Russia. These

are purchases of arms from other countries. I would stress that all

countries in the world have an interest in overcoming the threat

from ISIS. No state on earth will benefit from the growth of these

activities in Iraq and Syria, so it's very important that every

nation helps in various ways, and we will help through the United Nations

by putting forward proposals to make terrorist financing harder, to make

it harder for them to use the economic assets they have seized and

of course we want to make it harder for people to travel there as well.

No British military help of any kind at all? We do have to stress their

responsibility for this. I don't think it would be wise in this

situation and if there is any military intervention, the United

States has the best assets and capabilities to do that. I haven't

discussed with any Iraqi leaders reddish intervention, I have

discussed assistance with counterterrorism, expertise over the

medium term, and we have been the quickest country in the world to get

humanitarian aid to the people displaced by the activities of ISAL.

We can help in many ways but we are not contemplating a British military

intervention. There are hundreds of people coming back from Syria who

are now battle hardened jihadi 's to Britain. Is there anything new we

can do to stop them coming here? There is a great deal we can do and

we are doing. There have already been arrests, we have confiscated

passports, there will be cancelled leave to remain in this country so

people should be in no doubt that we will use the full force of the law

on this. Can you strip them of British nationality? We work closely

with the countries in the region to identify these people. It is a vast

task of course but I think that will be an ever increasing part of our

counterterrorism work. Can you strip them of British nationality if they

have chosen this path instead? The Home Secretary does have the power

to do that. The power she has been exercising is to remove passports so

far so people should be in no doubt. Let's move to the European

story if we may. Anna -- Mr Juncker is a disaster for Britain, isn't he?

We are heading towards the exit route. What has happened here, which

is an increasing power from the European Parliament at the expense

of the Council, head of government, makes the need for that even

clearer. The Conservative party has a plan to do something and then

consult the people in a referendum so it is the British people who will

decide ultimately in a referendum provided there is a Conservative

government. But the plan has two parts, first to renegotiate in EU,

and it looks like that cannot and will not happen, then the second

part, to get a referendum. The referendum will take us out of the

EU, won't it? It is far too early to say we cannot get those reforms. The

Prime Minister has acknowledged the task will be more difficult but

here's the first Prime Minister to negotiate a reduction in the

European budget. He vetoed the treaty three years ago, we are not

threatened with these things. Again, even in the... Sorry, I don't want

to talk over you. In the Council conclusions on Friday there was an

acknowledgement that what has happened has got to be reviewed,

that the concept of ever closer union cannot just be applied to

everybody in the same way, which is an argument we have been making.

These are consolation prizes after we have just lost a huge battle. Do

you agree with those who say the tactics were not good? Playing the

man and not the policy, making such a big thing of Juncker was a bad

idea? The Prime Minister always made it very clear that the principle of

how the selection was taking place, the need for reform in Europe, did

we think Mr Juncker was the man to do that? No, but when it is a 90

minute about principles you have to stick to your principal and

everybody can now see in Europe that when the Prime Minister says he will

not back down, he won't back down, he will stick to his guns. They were

go into negotiations over the next couple of years knowing that. Are

you worried about Mr Juncker's drinking? Having just explained that

it is about principle and reform in Europe, I'm not going to go into a

personal matter about him or anybody else. It is alleged in the papers

that the person who introduced Andy Coulson to the top team of the

Conservative party was none other than William Hague, is that true? Is

he an old mate of yours, and if so what did you learn from recent

events? No, I don't think that is true. I used to write a column for

The News Of The World a few years ago but I don't think that is true.

Sometimes you give someone a second chance in life, sometimes that turns

out to be wrong, that is what happened in this case. He was a kind

of friend nonetheless, do you have any sympathy for him now? I have

always got sympathy for the predicament of anybody I know who

has fallen into a very difficult situation brought it on themselves,

but I agree with what the Prime Minister said the other day. Do you

think the stickiness, if I can put it that way, of the relationship

between journalists and politicians went too far and has to be

rethought? I do think that on the whole, yes, and I think that has

changed in the light of events over the last few years. There is a

greater distance now between politicians and the press and I

think that was a necessary thing, and I think that is probably

healthier for our democracy. And I hate to bring up even more

horrendous words but do you think Nick Clegg was perhaps write about

Andy Coulson and David Cameron should have listened to Nick Clegg?

I am sorry to keep using the words Nick Clegg but that is my job. Nick

Clegg is the Deputy Prime Minister, that is absolutely fine! The Prime

Minister apologised for this, no one could be clearer than that, he

apologised unreservedly about it. He said as I said before that sometimes

we give somebody a second chance, and that is always a difficult

decision to make in life. Sometimes it turns out to have been a mistake.

You don't need to apologise for mentioning Nick Clegg. Very briefly,

are we going to leave the European Union in your lifetime? We are going

to have a referendum so the truthful answer is that it is up to the

British people, provided there is a Conservative government, but are

objective should be... Would it be a disaster if the British people said

no? This will be the debate in the referendum. I have always argued

against more power going to the European Union but for us to be a

member in Europe will not run by Europe. The British people will

decide in a referendum if that is sustainable or not. Thank you for

joining us this morning. Now the news headlines. The Foreign

Secretary has warned that Western support the Iraqi government will

depend on it adopting a new, more support the Iraqi government will

inclusive and nonsectarian approach. William Hague said the big test

would come when the Iraqi parliament meets this week. The Government in

Baghdad has taken delivery of a batch of fighter jets as it to read

-- we gain control of Tikrit. There are conflicting reports about who

has the upper hand there. The shadow chancellor Ed Balls has

told this programme he was really worried about the outcome of the

summit in Brussels which ended up with David Cameron isolated and said

the Prime Minister's negotiating strategy was cack-handed. The former

director of public prosecutions has defended the decision to put Rebekah

Brooks on trial. She was cleared of phone hacking charges. Kia Starmer

told this programme that the case marked a profound moment and

demonstrated that journalists are not above the law. The next News

from me is on BBC One at one o'clock. First let's take a look at

what is coming up immediately after the programme, before we get back to

Andrew. Should Britain be proud of its

history? We also asked does sport needed antiheroes? Join us at ten.

the time of the general election? Now, we're in the middle of summer

music festival season and one rock one rock star who's been no stranger

to big stages in muddy fields over the years is Chrissie Hynde.

She's playing the Latitude Festival next month and her first solo album,

'Stockholm', includes some of her most famous and iconic friends.

Neil Young, no less, and also the tennis champ John

McEnroe, who plays a mean guitar. Welcome.

Neil Young I get, John McEnroe, explain. John is a big music fan, I

have known him for many years. I was in Stockholm making this record and

he was doing some tennis, whatever he does over there. I said bring

your lefty. He plays great. Stockholm is the new album, lots of

Swedish influence, is Swedish rock about to happen? There are lots of

songs we have listened to on the radio made in Sweden, yes. Just

enough time left say goodbye. We will be here next Sunday on BBC One

at the usual time of nine o'clock. Tennis legend Martina Navratilova

will be here but now we leave you Tennis legend Martina Navratilova

will be here but now we leave in the more than capable hands of another

legend. This is Chrissie Hynde and House Of Cards.

# You were hands-on. # I fell in love for the summertime, I came on

Dom. # When the bells start to ring and

chime, we are out of time. # I can't ever take myself in your

house of cards. # I can't even explain myself...

# never find me. I can't ever take myself in your house of cards now.

# Now I lay me down to sleep. I prayed to the Lord, if I should die

before I awake, I prayed to the Lord my soul he will take. God bless my

grandma, and even the one who had me, he was a bad man. # I can't ever

take myself in your house of cards now. # I can't even explain

myself... # you will never find me...

# I can't ever take myself in your house of cards now.

When Barbara and I started the Review,