13/07/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

Is there anyone more disconsolate this Sunday than England's football

squad, sitting around waiting to watch the

The even-less-happy bunnies who are failing government ministers sitting

around waiting for the call from Number Ten heralding

He, by the way, has chosen this damp Sunday

for his summer barbeque at Chequers - that should be a fun gathering.

And joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers, the former

Cabinet Minister David Mellor, the TUC's General Secretary, Frances

O'Grady, and the Scottish political commentator, Ruth Wishart.

England has another parliament or at least a national assembly.

Far away from Westminster, up in York, the General Synod of

the Church of England kicks off its annual gathering and rather like the

Commons, its members are going to be debating the position of women,

poverty, inequality and the misdemeanours of the powerful.

In a rare interview, I've been talking to the Archbishop

of Canterbury about schisms, women bishops, gay marriage,

As Westminster waits for David Cameron's reshuffle,

the arguments there have been about privatisation, economic growth, and

We haven't heard a lot from Vince Cable, the business secretary,

since he was accused of involvement in a plot against Nick Clegg.

I'm delighted to say he joins us live in the studio this morning.

And we've been speaking to two of our greatest actors about the

Bill Nighy and Carey Mulligan in David Hare's Skylight.

The rest of the country can't see it?

Finally, Jerry Dammers, ex- of the Specials, with a huge orchestra

Palestinian officials say 17 members of the same family were

killed when Israeli missiles destroyed a home in Gaza belonging

These latest strikes have taken the Palestinian death toll to

Overnight, Israeli ground troops entered Gaza for the first time.

The Foreign Secretary William Hague is calling

for an immediate de-escalation in the violence on both sides, and

The Israeli air assault against Hamas has widened and continued

overnight. Recent strikes included a home for disabled people where

mourners dog to recover the bodies of two women. Meanwhile rockets from

Gaza reached further into Israel. This latest crisis began last month

after the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers and the

suspected revenge killing of a Palestinian boy. The Foreign

Secretary, William Hague, will discuss the need for what he

described as urgent, concerted action with his foreign counterparts

later. The United Nations says more than three quarters of the

Palestinians killed so far in this campaign were civilians and has

called for a cease-fire. But with both sides insistent that they are

protecting their own people, there's no sign of any willingness to stop

their attacks. Our correspondent

Quentin Sommerville is in Tel Aviv. The latest is that there were more

air raid sirens here in Tel Aviv and across Israel in anticipation of

more rockets coming from Gaza. In Gaza, we have heard that thousands

of Palestinians fleeing their homes in the north of the Gaza Strip in

anticipation of Israeli air strikes. The Israel military dropped leaflets

warning that the area would be bombed. The reason they are fleeing

is because, as you saw in your introduction, quite often where the

air strikes happen, civilians, women, children, the elderly, they

end up being the casualties. 17 members of one family, the chief of

police of Hamas's family, were killed last night, and his condition

is unknown. As the rockets keep flying into Israel and missiles go

back, international calls for a cease-fire are being heard but

neither side seems willing to cooperate.

Members of the Church of England's ruling body, the Synod, are

preparing for one of their biggest decisions, tomorrow's final vote on

Supporters of the proposal have expressed cautious optimism that

the Church's top jobs will be opened to women 20 years after they were

The proposals were narrowly rejected in November 2012.

The government is expanding a pilot scheme to help people with

mental health problems get treatment earlier, as it tries to

increase the numbers in work and reduce the benefits bill.

One trial started last month and three others will commence

A source close to the Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan

Smith has denied reports that he'd like to make mental health

assessments mandatory for people on some benefits.

I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

The torrent of filth, or the Sunday newspapers as we call them. I

supplied underaged rent boys for Tory ministers says some bloke. Less

filth in the Sunday Telegraph as Tony Blair must explain the IRA

deals as a select committee called a former Prime Minister to account

over deals with runaway IRA prisoners. The Sunday Times is still

doggedly pursuing Fifa, and the Independent on Sunday has a story

about child abuse victims suing the government. The Mail on Sunday

getting cross with Channel 4. And also a shocking story about Harry

Stiles who is splitting from his own hair and he will be performing

without the rest of him. And more filth in the Sunday People, Thatcher

in a child abuse cover-up, a shocking story if true. David

Mellor, today is a reshuffle coming up, so how important is it to the

coalition? Very important because it is the last one before the general

election. It has been heavily briefed. We look at the Sunday

Times, and we have a female card being played in the reshuffle.

Number ten have been briefing on this. My only worry about this is

getting rid of old white men in suits, a caveat I might come back

to, but he is getting rid of several old white men in suits in favour of

women. My only problem is that the briefing is almost a bit cynical.

It's the guy buying the library who said instead he would like this,

bring me three yards of books. These poor women, it is too obvious, and

the other thing I have to say with respect to your noted guest, the

ultimate old white Man In A Suit who maybe should have received his

pension is Vince Cable after the mess up over the Royal Mail,

castigated again for a Parliamentary -- by a Parliamentary select

committee for having lost as ?1 billion. You can't touch him.

Although Vince has been pretty unpleasing to Nick Clegg, apparently

Mr Clegg is not ready to retaliate. We will await and see until the

autumn when the Liberal Democrat comes in. Ruth Wishart, you are a

big pro-supporter of independence, and there was a poll on Sunday

suggesting things had got tougher for the yes campaign in the last few

weeks. Flat-lining rather than shaking. What Scotland on Sunday

says this morning is that the yes vote is down by two percentage

points and the no percentage is up by 2%. That is within the margin of

error. But it's true to say there has been a stalling in the momentum

for the yes campaign and I think it might be because there has been a

raft of promises made by the Unionist camps. Tax-raising powers

for the parliament and all that. One wonders why that was such a good

idea, these extra powers, why they would not put them on the ballot

paper. We know Mr Cameron would not call it devolution max -- allow

devolution max on the ballot paper. I think two thirds of Scots would

have gone to that, which is why it's not on the ballot paper. One final

question, you are a Glasgow woman, how much is the hype around the

Commonwealth games going to affect people 's view, if at all? I don't

think so, but there is a huge people 's view, if at all? I don't

in terms of Great Britain when everybody's heart beat a little

faster, some of a lot of Scottish jerseys were standing on a podium

there might be jerseys were standing on a podium

temporarily, but I don't think that is what is worrying. This issue will

be decided as ever on things like the economy. Frances O'Grady, your

first story is about moral capitalism, a call for moral

capitalism from another archbishop. No, this one is from the Pope. He is

a kind of archbishop, I suppose. That's a bit controversial. He has

called a summit on wanting to world a more moral capitalism, and I think

it is interesting that many faith leaders are now questioning the

model of capitalism that we have. The sense that inequality has become

so extreme with 140 national companies owning 40% of the wealth

of the world, and famously, in Britain, queues outside food banks

and payday lenders. Interestingly as well, there

and payday lenders. Interestingly as United States, in some quarters,

that this is pure Marxism, United States, in some quarters,

leading to coalitions like the campaign for a living wage here in

Britain, involving faith groups across the piece, trade unions,

community groups, and they all have a real sense of the grassroots

reaction against these levels of inequality. Later I will totally

Archbishop of Canterbury, and what inequality. Later I will totally

he says all about this. He is excited about rich people involving

themselves about legal tax avoidance, heaving sick should not

be done. Is that the next big battle? That is one of them -- is

that something that should not be done. Is that the next big battle?

There is also the unbridled free-market which is pleading not to

stop the poor and ordinary working people. What are those practical

solutions to deal with it? The Royal Mail privatisation has been one of

the great problems but the government has faced recently and

you have a story about that. The Royal Mail fiasco is bad for the

sell-off says the Mail on Sunday. It is typical of a whole lot of

comment. Shares in the Royal Mail have never been below a third above

what it was sold out, and I think it is curious, particularly that

somebody like Vince Cable, who is as critical of other colleagues, you

would expect him to get it right. He chose advisers, who won the obvious

ones, and then he allowed them, it is said behind the Chinese wall, not

only to set the price, which was too low, but then buy in on a privileged

basis, meaning that the ordinary punters did not get shares. This was

allegedly to stabilise the issue so there was long-term shareholdings.

As soon as the boys saw the shares go up through the roof, they

couldn't wait to sell. That reads across to what Frances O'Grady just

said. Just jumping, MPs say it has cost the taxpayer at least ?1

billion. -- just to jump in. Sorry I am stepping outside of my

traditional thought process here, but there was a strike on Thursday

by certain public sector workers who were held down to 1%, below the rise

in the cost of living, so to command the moral high ground would be quite

good of the government dealt with bankers still with their nose in the

trough and that will be a problem, because bankers are still claiming

bonuses, and this kind of fiasco, this Royal Mail sell-off, of public

assets, sold to people who then immediately made disgusting profit.

It's not how it should have been. In the 1980s, the privatisations

avoided that, so why couldn't Vince Cable? The railways were not a great

example. Moving onto the neck story from Frances O'Grady, which is about

the Conservative trade union laws -- the next story. Do you think you

will face a tranche of new laws? The Prime Minister has already announced

he would attempt to lift the threshold for ballots, unique

requirement on trade unions, not any other ballot. That is quite popular

with the public. What is wrong with that? If only 20% of members in a

particular union have voted, should the union be able to hold the public

to ransom and go on strike on the basis of the small turnout? I will

come onto that because I think unions are the first to come up with

ideas about how we can unions are the first to come up with

ideas about how we boost the turnout. We were saddled with a very

20th century form of balloting, postal balloting, in the 1980s, when

we wanted the right to hold secret ballots in workplaces where we knew

the turnout would be better. Of course it is difficult, in the 21st

century, so why can't we open up safe and secure electronic

balloting? We've been lumbered with a system that is old-fashioned, but

I think there is a principle here. The public does not support the

government getting even tougher on trade unions, in a regime that is

one of the toughest in the advanced world, and why should ordinary

working people have to meet a higher test than politicians do when it

comes to seats in Westminster or local government where we have a

turnout of about one third. And famously, the police commissioners

who got a turnout of around 15% or less. The other big story is the

assisted dying vote coming up in the House of Lords next week. Archbishop

Desmond Tutu, archbishops are all over the place this morning. There

is a very good piece in the Observer but we should examine why any of the

churches should be allowed to draw the moral parameters of the nation

because we are in a largely secular world and whether assisted dying is

a good or bad idea is up to the families concerned and not the

Church leaders. Having said that you cannot find a more impeachable

source than Desmond Tutu. He said he was horrified at the way Nelson

Mandela, at the way they strove officiously to keep him alive. He

was propped up and used as a national symbol for a long time.

Yes, they were around the bedside talking to a man who was beyond

sentience thought. I happen to think that if you want somebody on the

side of assisted dying you could do a lot worse than Desmond Tutu. Let's

move on to the child sex abuse stories, claims of cover-ups in the

1980s and one person coming forward saying he will go to the enquiry and

spill the beans, is this a serious one, do you think? There is a more

substantial story in the Sunday Mirror, the only people named are

dead. There is an opportunity to name live people but they don't.

There is tittle tattle because when you are dead, if you have relatives

who care about your reputation and you can be abused. Mrs Thatcher is

alleged to have told a young minister in the 1980s, you have to

clean up your sexual act. Can you imagine those words falling from the

lips of Mrs Thatcher? The other one, here is a chap who was annoyed he

wasn't chosen,, he has come up with improbable names. Michael Haver 's,

heavens above! Of course the brother of the lady holding the enquiry. It

is now open season because of what I have already announced as a shoddy

dossier presented to Leon Brittan, which have very little substance in

my view. The interesting thing about that dossier is that no one who is

commenting on it has ever seen it. Some of the Labour politicians who

are undoubtedly involved in that... The tabloids plainly care about it.

They are talking about a paedophile task force to look at which

high-profile celebrities are involved, but paedophiles are

paedophiles and I don't think anyone cares what they did for a living. I

think that is true, and the big problem is in the family where the

children are often more intimidated and more scared of speaking up. I

think the daily Mirror is brave here because I think it does matter to

ordinary people. We are facing concerns of wealth and power leading

to at least collusion and possibly cover-ups and we need to know the

truth. Norman Tebbit, your former colleague, said last week he thought

there had been an establishment cover-up. I don't know if there was

or not but I am speaking about my five years in the Home Office, had I

known anybody was taking part in paedophile activities I would have

denounced them. If he was so sure there was an establishment cover-up,

why did we only learned this from him today? Last week. Charging

through stories, we must mention what is going on in Palestine

because it looks like we are on the edge of another huge civil war. It

is quite appalling. I know that it is complex but I have to say that

Israel has consistently said this week they will make every effort to

avoid civilian casualties. If this is what happens making every

effort, heaven help Gaza if they make no effort at all. The

Independent on Sunday has an eyewitness account of this home that

has been hit. There are well over 100 deaths, numerous casualties, and

the idea that you are hiding terrorists in places like disabled

hospitals I think is ludicrous. Gaza is such a small place with such a

big population, there is nowhere to hide. David, you said disobliging

things... hide. David, you said disobliging

live, you hide. David, you said disobliging

Shamia and said that if I was a young Israeli father

Shamia and said that if I was a boys what hope do your policies have

of allowing them to live in peace with their neighbours? He said, they

are all terrorists. On that chilling note, let's move on. Now onto the

weather forecast with Louise. We have seen some rain so typical

British summer really, good watering for the gardens through the night

and it is an improving picture for most of us today. We will see some

brightness most of us today. We will see some

some sunny spells coming through, so pleasant enough, and west will be

best unlike yesterday. In Scotland, sunny spells and high temperatures

of and 19 in Glasgow. sunny spells and high temperatures

Ireland and western England not too bad but if

Ireland and western England not too Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, across East

Anglia as well we could see some Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, across East

Anglia as well we could see heavy downpours. Further west, the cloud

will continue to break. This high pressure takes over for tomorrow, a

beautiful day on prospect but the next area of low pressure moves in

bringing range in Northern Ireland and Scotland and in the west and

south-west. Still a pleasant day with high temperatures up to 24

degrees. Andrew, I can give you a heads up into the end of next week,

we could see the magic 30 degrees. Lord preserve us, London already

feels like Bombay but not quite as fresh!

It's just over a year since the surprise choice of Justin Welby as

This relative newcomer to the top echelons of the Church

of England has a background in business, a very different figure

from anyone who's previously been called to lead Anglicans not only

He's inherited a Church with a declining congregation that's

wracked by divisions over gay rights, same sex marriage,

and most damagingly a bitter split over ordaining women bishops.

This divisive issue comes before the Church's General Synod tomorrow.

When we met, I asked why a plan to accept women

bishops which was rejected a year ago might now be approved.

We have gone to principles -based approach which says that we accept

there is difference, women will be bishops like all other bishops with

no distinction but we will seek for the groups that disagree with the

ordination of women bishops on theological grounds to continue to

flourish within the Church. It almost looks like you're trying to

create a cordial thing between the groups, as if women bishops are

toxic, can you see why some women would find that offensive? I can,

and the first couple of principles that the house of Bishops have

stated is that we have decided women are bishops, it is not open to

people to deny the validity of that decision, but we are also saying we

are not a political party and organisation where you throw out the

ones you disagree with, where the Church is a family and you may

disagree with each other but you have to live together because you

are family. Members of the Church and commentators I have spoken to

seem to think you will win this vote, but if you don't, come the

bishops simply impose this and ignore the Senate? What happens if

we lose the vote is a matter for the house of Bishops, I cannot dictate

it and I am not expecting to face that. The votes I think are there.

You cannot impose women bishops? Absolutely not. We will discuss what

we will do if we fail in the house of Bishops. David Cameron has spoken

out forthrightly about how important this decision is. I think to the

general public this is almost incomprehensible and it is equally

incomprehensible that we are still talking about it. I hope it will

pass, I am not focused on what will happen if it fails. What will be the

timescale? There is a good chance of the first women bishops being

announced early in 2015, probably being chosen before that, but it

depends. Do you think you will see an Archbishop of Canterbury who is a

woman in your lifetime? I have no idea, I was -- would be delighted if

we did. When it comes to gay marriage you have been on the other

side of the argument, can you explain why that is the case? On one

side you are saying the culture has moved on, we need women bishops.

Theologically the Church has been wrong not to ordain women as priests

and bishops over the centuries and I think if you look back at Scripture

and the nature of God, if you look particularly the way the early

Church organised itself, we got caught up in the culture over the

centuries, as churches do. The issue of sexuality I am very loathed to

comment on in detail. Yes, I was very clearly against same-sex

marriage when the bill came through and the position of the Church

remains unchanged on that. But we are beginning a process of guided

conversations, shared conversations in the Church, and I just want to

let those take their course and not pre-empt the way we are going to

emerge from those decisions. I think within Anglicanism we don't have a

Pope, I am not some kind of people figure who says this is the way we

are going to do it, so actually we listen to the sense of the spirit of

God as we go through this process. I know you have been talking to people

from the gay community about this issue, and it has been said on some

of the websites that they think you have changed your own position

personally. To be absolutely clear, I have... I have not been convinced

by the arguments for same-sex marriage as marriage. I continue to

struggle. You meet people, sit across the room from them, talk to

them, some wonderful priests, and your heart goes out to them. Lots of

people in unselfish, long-term, profoundly strong relationships.

Precisely. Your predecessor Rowan Williams has said he thinks the

Church's view on same-sex marriage is not sustainable, do you agree

with that? We are in a long period of conversation so by definition it

is unstable and that is something we have to deal with. We have a

responsibility, everyone, to love and respect the global community of

Christians who are part of the family. Part of the worldwide

Anglican Communion, particularly in Africa, is out right homophobic and

there have been increasing attacks on homosexuals in Africa. Many would

say that you should have nothing to do with that and not let it affect

your view of what happens in this country. I entirely agree that where

there have been homophobic attacks, they are utterly inexcusable in

every possible way. But it is not about whether they affect us, it is

about the fact that we are called to mutual love across boundaries and

that is a complicated thing. There are all these churches in east

Africa who think you are profoundly wrong on questions like the

ordination of women bishops, they are rising, becoming more and more

powerful, as they're bound to be a schism in the Anglican union over

these cultural issues? As Christians, we believe we are part

of one family, joined inextricably by the choice of God, by our common

faith in Christ. Schism is awful, if it happens it happens but are

calling is to love one another and find ways of good disagreement in a

world that is completely incapable of good disagreement. Can I ask you

about a recent controversy here, with pop stars, authors, who have

been avoiding paying their tax and staying just in the law but not

paying tax? What do you think is the ethical, moral and Christian view of

that? Funnily enough there is a passage in the Epistles which says

that you must pay your tax and I think people have a duty to make a

proper contribution to society that is proportionate to their income.

Therefore, if they are doing well, they should pay quite a lot. There

have to be serious questions about these tax avoidance schemes. At the

same time, the tax system needs to be clear enough and tough enough

that the opportunity is not available. It is both sides. You

have quoted St John, the one-time Archbishop of Constantinople, who

was a political thorn in the side of the authorities, to the effect that

if you are wealthy, the money does not belong to you, it belongs to the

people generally, and if you hold back money from people poorer than

you, you are in effect stealing that money from them, so when you talk

about a changing culture, you would like to see a changing culture where

wealthy are ashamed if they are not giving a substantial proportion of

their wealth to those less fortunate. I would entirely agree

with that, and it has been a problem through human history. There are

very few of us who find it easy not to have sticky fingers. We all quite

like a bit of money. Usually a bit more than we have got. But there is

an obligation to the common good and it is not the same as the general

interest. It is making sure that the poorest in our society can live

dignified lives, worthy of their humanity. You had lots of wealthier

colleagues back in the days of the oil industry and banking, so is your

message to them, look in the mirror, think about society and put more

back? Yes. Pretty straightforward. Thank you very much indeed. Let's

move onto one of the other big issues confronting us, because this

is a Christian country but you are not getting enough people into

church. Meanwhile, is lamb is increasing around the country. Are

you one of those who a conflict between Christians and Muslims in

the country, a growing religious conflict developing? -- Islam is

increasing. There is -- there are areas where for all sorts of reasons

there have been more tensions than in the past. For instance, during

Lent, I met up with one of the Muslim leaders, and three times he

brought a passage from the Koran, and I brought a passage from the

Gospel, and we looked at that. There was no sense of conflict there. We

disagreed. It was a proper conversation though? It was a

proper, good disagreement. The ancient church starts in

hospitality, arms open wide to every one and two listening, and to be

ready to explain our faith and to do so with grace. If other people want

to behave differently, that is fine, but our duty is the grace,

hospitality and welcome and love that is and unconditional.

Archbishop, that is fine up to a point. There are lots of problems in

this country and the Muslim community does not have an

Archbishop of Canterbury. It's a different system of hierarchy. Do

you think there has been a problem in terms of the hierarchy in

combating extremism? You would have to ask them rather than me. Clearly

there is an issue with people going to Syria and coming back highly

radicalised and there is a problem with radicalisation but the

proportion of Muslims who are radicalised is extraordinarily

small. And I am just edgy about developing a national culture of

fear, because I don't think that gets us anywhere, and I think we are

in danger of slipping into a very fearful culture in which we see

everyone against us and us against everyone else and we are constantly

trying to defend ourselves. This country is bigger than that and

better than that. Are we becoming a little hysterical on the subject, in

short? I think we've been becoming hysterical about this for a

considerable period. And it is a worry because we have huge

differences with Islam as Christians, but that's no reason for

hostility, quite the reverse. In terms of the competing cultures,

it's been suggested, included by your pre-decision that some elements

of sharia law should be brought into British law -- your predecessor. I

think it is a fundamental principle that English law rests on English

jurisprudence and that no system of law can come in under any

circumstances that contradicts the basic principles of English

jurisprudence. The other big story, sadly, has been about the enquiry

into child abuse, and you gave a press Conference with the Roman

Catholic Archbishop of Westminster in which you said there had been

historic cases of child abuse in your communions and churches. Do you

think that means there are still bad stories about to come out from the

Anglican Church? I would love to say there weren't, but I expect there

are. There are in almost institution in this land. It is something I deal

with everyday -- almost every institution in this land. It is

become clearer and clearer that, for many years, things were not dealt

with as they should have been dealt with, and we must show justice to

survivors of abuse. That is the first absolute principle. And we

must be absolutely transparent in every possible way. And we have to

keep saying how utterly devastated we are with the terrible things that

were done in the past and how sorry we are. Let's move onto your own

fate. We've had good times dark times in your life, especially when

you were long -- younger -- you have had good times and dark times in

your life. When did you feel God talking to you specifically? Doing

my sums, I think I was about 19 or 20. When I was 19, there was a

crucial moment of commitment to follow Christ, and then it was a

journey. It goes on and on and it changes the whole time. Were you

initially embarrassed by that? Yes. I was deeply embarrassed. I remember

the first thing I said to the person when I made a prayer commitment to

Christ was, please don't tell anybody. Your predecessor has also

said in his autobiography that he hated the job. How are you enjoying

it? I'm rather worried about the fact that on most things, most of

the time, I'm really enjoying myself. Long may that continue.

Thank you very much, Archbishop. The hottest ticket

in London theatre right now is a revival of David Hare's masterpiece

about love, morality and money. Skylight has been such a hit that

it's going to be broadcast live It stars two major actors,

Bill Nighy and Carey Mulligan. They play a couple who've had

an affair and meet up again years I met both stars at the theatre

and Bill Nighy began by telling me It is a great work of art, and it

has entered the language. It has been produced for 17 years and it's

a remarkable piece of writing, and it has everything you might require

from a play. It's extremely moving and hopefully funny. Carey, you have

a great playwright who is still alive. Is he involved in the

production? Have you talked to him about your character? He has been

involved a lot. David was with this everyday to the first week of

rehearsals and then he would come in and watch some running through, and

we've asked many things. He has very much left a separation between him

and Stephen Baldry, he is the writer and the director and we ask both of

them. It all takes place in a sordid flat in Kensal rise and let's talk

about your characters, because you are a self-made tycoon of the

Thatcher area. I am a restaurateur who has made a lot of money, and

I've gone public recently, and it has made me rich to the tune of

several million pounds. And your character, Carey, slightly more

middle-class, has been his lover, has broken up, and she has done a

good thing which is she has gone into the public sector. Their

relationship started when she was sort of 21 and she worked

successfully for him for a number of years while the relationship went

on, and since then she made the decision to go into a completely

different side of things and has become a teacher. To what extent

your character the goodie, and yours the baddie. David Hare tends to

subvert the easy polarities. Exactly, and the audience gets to

pick which parts. It is sophisticated enough that neither of

the characters talk nonsense all of the time. Some of them talk complete

sense on occasion, and you are thrown back and forward. It is

exciting that reason. And the politics of it, this is set back in

the John Major years when the government is cracking down on the

welfare state in the public sector generally. I think David Hare said

it was interesting it was being revived now. It's very cool it is

being revived now. But it is a great play, so it's not just a mechanism

for delivering a mechanism. It actually operates as a story about

two people, in a room. Carey, people will know you throw your dash

through your great film roles, but you always wanted to be a stage

actor, and in this theatre. Yes, from when I was little. I wanted to

be a musical theatre actress but I was not a strong enough singer or

dancer so I stuck to the acting. But this theatre was one I came to when

I was 11 for the first time. I had been to so many things at this

theatre, and when the idea came along, at the West End this was the

dream place to put it on. It is ten years since State of Play, your big

breakthrough role that people remember, and you were a newspaper

editor in that, so what do you think of recent events? I have no

reflection on recent events. I was a newspaper editor then they could be

heroes. They could be heroes again. Everybody, stop what you are doing,

that means you, phones down, computers down, get your coats.

Anyone not essential to tonight's addition, the Masons Arms in ten

minutes and if you think I'm drunk now, looking again at ten o'clock. I

wanted to be a journalist. My first idea was to be a journalist. I

thought it was an intensely glamorous operation -- occupation. I

was a messenger boy on a Field magazine, but I apply to the Croydon

advertiser but I didn't have the levels. They said go off and get

your levels, but I flunked school. I ran away to Paris to write the great

English novel and didn't write Word and became an by default. -- didn't

write a word. We both have other interesting films coming up. You

have Suffragette which has nearly every fey shameless actress in it.

And every American want -- famous English actors. It was about women

who went into galleries and pour down paintings and threw themselves

in front of horses, the hunger striking, and the treatment of these

women at the time. It is, for me, that side of things, the

force-feeding, the treatment they received from the government and the

lengths that they went to, it was something I had no real grasp on.

Very recent and very grim, actually. Bill Nighy, your film is also about

militants, but Welsh miners. Bill Nighy, your film is also about

the middle of the miners strike and a large number of

the middle of the miners strike and women from London arrived to support

them. One lesbian called Stephanie. And I don't think they were

militant, particularly, just decent men and women who wear the kind of

Civil War broke out that the Conservative government tried to

arrange to crush them. It's the truth. It's quite funny. It's the

story of one gay man and one lesbian who saw that the miners were being

spat at in the street and invented as enemies of the state, and they

thought, tell us about it. It was not unlike being gay in 1984 in the

UK, so they raise the money and they found it impossible to deliver it to

the miners union. They had difficulty putting the call through

in 1984, so they decided to deliver it to a small village. Your gaze

have arrived. Name the group and organisation you represent. Gays and

lesbians supporting the miners. Absolutely. There was something I

was told the market about lesbians. One last film, the Coen brothers had

a huge hit, the alternative life of Bob Dylan, and a certain Mr Mumford

plays in that. Was it a weird husband-and-wife act? Luckily other

people were singing at the same time. No, he was a producer on the

soundtrack so we are not on screen together. You sing quite a lot

because you sang in the Fassbender film as well. Yes, I think my

singing career is over. Maybe musical theatre still beckons.

Fantastic, thank you very much indeed.

Skylight will be brought from London's West End this Thursday, the

17th of July. Vince Cable has come in for some

heavy duty criticism over the sale of Royal Mail. His critics say it

was botched and as a result has cost us ?1 billion. The Business

Secretary joins me now. This goes back to the great row between

AstraZeneca and Pfizer when apparently commitments were made

about how long the research aspects of the company would remain in this

country, jobs and so forth, that unravelled, why do you need to

change the law? I have been reflecting on that experience, we

will probably get other big takeovers coming down the track.

There are lessons to take, not one is that it is good for Britain to

have investment, but the question is how to protect companies. The

Government engaged in negotiations to seek assurances. We have to make

sure in any commitments made that there is no wiggle room, and we may

well get into the area of having financial penalties in order to make

sure those commitments are binding. If I want to make sure those

commitments are binding. If I want a, and I say I will keep that in

Croydon, that becomes a legal responsibility on me and I can be

sued if I don't comply. Yes, that is a good pr?cis. We did get some good

assurances from Pfizer but the question is are they binding? There

is wiggle room and we want to deal with it in such a way that there is

no escape clause. And you need to change the law to make that happen?

If it is the case we need to move quickly to make sure there is

legislation but there is another dimension to this - supposed to --

supposed the company don't want to negotiate, you need some fallback

powers, a last resort where the Government can intervene. What I

would argue is that we need to do this as it were with a laser missile

rather than a cluster bomb. What is the national interest? Is it simply

jobs? Special research and development facilities? Is it

sensible to have a body? We are governed by the existing law but

also European merger and takeover regulations so we cannot just

arbitrarily choose things but we will need a last resort power so

that if there is something very clear against the national

interest, the Government can intervene. I made it clear when the

original takeover was taking place is that we were reserving all our

options. That needs new legislation? That would be, and we are going to

proceed in the first case is a coalition, in the second case I am

putting forward my Liberal Democrat views. You haven't won agreement

inside government about that? Not at the moment. The Archbishop of

Canterbury said it was a moral question, the better off should

contribute through the tax system or voluntarily, do you agree with that?

I do agree, I think over the last few decades we have had growing

inequality and extreme wealth inequality, maybe because of what

has happened with property, but it should be dealt with. I brought in

legislation to deal with executive pay. We had an example at the end of

last week. The boss of Burberry. That was rolled back because it was

related to performance and it showed the legislation was working. We want

to see shareholders and mostly pension funds and insurance

companies being actively involved. They now have a binding vote and we

want to see them using it, they are using it, and I think it is

moderating extreme inequalities in renumeration. Would you sit in a

government that cuts the upper rate of tax from 45p? I don't think that

is the critical issue, 45p is the right rate, but under a Labour

government we had a 40p rate. The argument I have made in the past is

that it is much more important to tax inequalities of capital, of

wealth. It is tax inequalities of capital, of

wealth. interesting looking ahead that you and the Labour Party now

seem to see eye to eye on the mansion tax. On that particular

policy, they have caught up with us from that policy, yes. So Liberal

Democrat Labour coalition would produce a mansion tax. It is a

possibility, anything could happen after the next election, we are not

prejudging. We have seen stories about aggressive tax avoidance

schemes which are used by famous actors, singers, celebrities and

broadcasters, all sorts of people. Do you think the law needs to be

toughened in that area and there should be naming and shaming? There

should and it is happening, but the principle which we are beginning to

implement and certainly my party would go further with this is to

generally have an anti-avoidance provision. If it is the case where

people are acting in a way that is clearly against the will of

Parliament, then in the revenue the authorities can pursue them in an

aggressive way. In the past they have been given the benefit of the

doubt. What the Lord need to be changed? It would need a strong one,

we have one at the moment and it could be beefed up. What is your

message to those who are told by their accountants that there is a

very good scheme in the Cayman Islands and so on? If people are

trying to cheat they should stop it. MPs say that you have cost the

taxpayer ?1 billion by mispricing the Royal Mail privatisation none

but you should be resigning or at least apologising for it. If we put

aside David Mellor's snide comments and concentrate on the issue, I

don't think he or many other people read what the committee report said.

Its conclusion was that we had achieved our objectives, which was

to take... Let me finish... Bring in private capital so that it can still

continue to deliver its service. The argument has been about the price,

and the issue here, and it is all very well to be wise with

hindsight, it is facile. At the time, it was very clear the correct

judgement was made and that was the view of the independent advisers, it

was a result of extensive market survey, the advice of the

officials, the advice of the Conservative minister who was

responsible for the sale that we could not sell large amounts at the

high price. You would do it all again? Under those circumstances,

there was no alternative but to do what we did. Thank you. Now over to

Sian for the news headlines. Palestinian officials say 17 members

of the same family were killed when Israeli missiles destroyed a home in

Gaza belonging to the Hamas chief of police. These latest strikes have

taken the Palestinian death toll to almost 160. The Foreign Secretary

William Hague is calling for an immediate de-escalation in the

violence on both sides. Members of the Church of England's ruling body

are preparing for one of their biggest decisions - tomorrow's final

vote on whether to create female bishops. Supporters of the proposal

have expressed cautious optimism that the top jobs will be opened to

women. Vince Cable says there is agreement to bring in new laws

governing company takeovers. He confirmed new legislation will

create financial penalties to make sure there is no wiggle room for

companies to evade legal responsibilities. That is all for

me. Back to Andrew in a moment but first let's look at what is coming

up immediately after this programme. You can vote on whether you think

assisted dying should be made legal. We ask, is sport the new religion?

And we meet comedian Liz Carr. A lot of Conservative MPs are keen

for tougher union laws, what is your view? I don't think there is any

need for them. We have far fewer strikes than we had in the past. The

proposal they are making is that no strikes should be valid unless over

half the members have voted for it, that is simply party. Most MPs would

not have been elected under that structure. You heard what Vince

Cable had to say about the takeovers, were you pleased with

what you heard? It is definitely a step in the right direction, and

this is the kind of thing the Government should be concentrating

on. How do we make sure we get real investment for the future and we

start up and living standards instead of having old-fashioned

union bashing. OK, we are almost out of time.

Join us again next Sunday here on BBC One at nine o'clock.

For now, we leave you with some fine music.

Jerry Dammer's Spatial AKA Orchestra will be playing the Barbican Hall in

Jerry - familiar to many from his days in The Specials - has

brought together some of his unique 24-piece ensemble for us today.

Here they are, with special guest Cornell Campbell,

# Queen of the minstrels # Queen of the minstrels

# I love you so # Queen of the minstrels

# I love you so, wait for me # Queen of the minstrels

# Play that sweet, sweet melody, play for me

# Queen of the minstrels # Queen of the minstrels

# Keep on playing that sweet song for me

# How it feels, that sweet melody # I love you so

There's too many people in the country, end of story.