19/06/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

The brutal killing of MP Jo Cox has shocked the nation and paused

the referendum debate, just days before voting.

Had we become, on all sides, simply too angry

This morning, the big question about our national future returns,

with perhaps, we'll see, a rather different tone.

My guests today include the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

and the joint leader of the Leave campaign, the Justice

Two more politicians in our papers review this morning -

Conservative Remainer and unlikely king of Twitter Sir Nicholas Soames.

And the leading Out campaigner Labour's Kate Hoey.

And we're joined too by the Sun's star columnist Jane Moore.

Plus, music from one of the hottest young stars in Britain,

But first, the news, with Steph McGovern.

Two special church services will be held at Birstall in West Yorkshire

this morning to remember the local MP Jo Cox,

Thomas Mair, who is accused of her murder, appeared

in court in London yesterday and was remanded in custody.

He will appear at the Old Bailey tomorrow.

A day of remembrance ahead for this village in West Yorkshire.

Three days after the killing of the Labour MP Jo Cox,

campaigning in the EU referendum has started up again.

The Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, who wants to leave,

insists Britain could be a "progressive beacon"

David Cameron has urged voters to reject Nigel Farage's vision

for the country which, he claimed, would "divide rather than unite".

Health unions have written to David Cameron urging him not

to scrap nursing and midwifery bursaries in England.

The Government says that replacing grants with student loans

will provide funding for many more training places.

But the Royal College of Nursing says that the plans would be

a "reckless gamble" with the future of the NHS workforce.

A day of remembrance ahead for this village in West Yorkshire.

Later this morning, church services will

be held and a book of condolences opened for those who wish to

to pay their respects for Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday, as she

made her way here, to her constituency surgery.

Yesterday, the MP's family, surrounded by the

people of Birstall, came to the place where she was attacked.

Her sister, Kim Leadbeater, said Jo would never

She will live on through all the good people in the world.

Through Brendan, through us, and through her

truly wonderful children, who will always know what an utterly

She was a human being and she was perfect.

People have been reacting to the 41-year-old's death across

A fund set up in her name has already raised hundreds of thousands

Meanwhile, yesterday, the man accused of killing the MP,

When asked his name, he replied, "death to

He is also charged with grievous bodily

harm against a 77-year-old man who came to her aid

The 52-year-old was remanded in custody and will appear

There have been disturbances in the Turkish city of Istanbul,

following an attack on fans of the British rock band Radiohead.

Police used tear gas to disperse hundreds of people protesting

The fans, who had gathered at a music store to listen

to the band's latest album, were reportedly targeted

for drinking alcohol and playing music during Ramadan.

Those words by the murdered MP's sister, she was perfect, dominate

some of the papers. Because of legal problems, cannot talk much about

this, so you will have to forgive us. This one, like a lot of the

Sunday papers, finally make up -- makes up its mind on Europe. The

Sunday Times, slightly hedging its bets, you might think, with David,

talking about the dangers of leaving. Michael Gove has given

interviews in lots of the papers, and we will be talking to him later

on. And there's Jo Cox's parents- we know there are some some evil people

in this world, but there are an awful lot of good people, too. .

Looking at the opinion polls, this does in deed appear to be the case,

Britain split down the middle. You met Jo Cox a few times? Only

slightly. I met her as a colleague, really, in the lobbies. And I think

Kate was in the same position. We knew her as a new member of

Parliament. I was most impressed by her ability to work across the

issues, cross-party, like Kate and I have done on immigration and other

matters. If you want to get anything done in the House of Commons, you

have to work cross-party, and she was a doer. I loved the story by

Andrew Mitchell, in the Telegraph, saying that he took her to talk to

the Russian ambassador, to talk about Syria, and she gave the

Russian ambassador what for and he was doubly chastened. And he is a

tough guy. Yes, and she gave him what for. I am very taken by the

last article she wrote, which the Mail on Sunday reprints today in

which she talks very eloquently about the Remain campaign. That was

the context in which I met her. We were both members of the cross-party

Remain campaign. I think she writes very powerfully and knowledgeably

about the migrants and the need to curb migrants, but also to do it in

a sensible and humane way. And of course her husband has pick up the

torch and is tweeting and writing everywhere as well. What was

remarkable, having only been a member of Parliament for such a

short time, she was so well-known for the causes that she was working

cross-party on. And I think also, what has come through very much, and

I think all MPs will be so touched by that, the effect within her own

constituency of her own constituents and the help that she had given

them. It is one area of MPs' lives which can get ignored by the media,

that day today, we are all doing I think pretty good work. But she

particularly seems to have done that in that short time. She was from the

area, it was her home area. I think the papers have all done some

wonderful tributes to her. It is interesting, Sir Nicholas was saying

that she was a cross-party kind of MP. And she has got cross-party

tributes, from right across the press. Absolutely. As you just said,

she was perfect. It is the whole thing off, she was a human being.

How her sister stood up and made that speech, all credit to her.

Absolutely incredible. You just look at what happens when somebody... It

is about their parents, their siblings, their children. But as you

rightly say, Kate, the constituents. And these pictures of the sea of

flowers, and when she was first killed, the reporters, who normally

they do vox pops of people on the streets, people were actually

crying. And they all had personal stories of how she had helped them.

People think Westminster is full of career politicians who have no...

There is a lot of abuse of politicians. And I think Jo Cox and

her tragic story has highlighted that there are a lot of on the

ground MPs, doing the job as it should be done. Sir Nicholas, have

you noticed an additional aggression in recent years towards MPs, and how

do you deal with it? You need want to go out and meet your

constituents, you do not want to be surrounded by police or whatever. We

shall go on with our surgeries as we have always done. Nevertheless, I

think it is an important point - the job of the MP in the constituency is

to be round and about, and constantly so. Despite what you

would think, MPs are astonishingly accessible, at any time. But it has

changed, the public debate has coarsened, and there are a whole lot

of events which led up to that. It is now much rougher than it was. It

has always been a rough trade, Dubai to Hogarth. But it is now much more

vicious. Particularly so, for women. There was something in the Telegraph

yesterday listing the threats, and rape threats, made against women MPs

on all sides. Yes, and that is a result of social media, because it

is so instant. Somebody says something, and everybody else joins

in. Personally I just ignore things which come through, unless it is

something which is really, really threatening. Not just women MPs, TV

presenters, journalists... Anyone in public life. Look at the way our

nurses, our schoolteachers, I sometimes threatened. It is a

general coarsening of the public... In the Sunday Telegraph, James

Kirchhoff saying that this is going to divide the country further, he

thinks. Well, he's trying to move on from that, saying there will be a

lot of people for different reasons trying to link this with the

referendum. And I think this piece by James Kirkup is saying that it is

very, very important what happens after Thursday, that the tone of the

debate is kept in a way that people will not afterwards be able to work

together. He says the one certainty about the political consequences of

Jo Cox's awful death, the more it is linked into the referendum debate

are the harder it will be for people divided by that referendum to come

back together afterwards. I think that is really important. It is all

about tone? It is, and about people respecting other people's views,

even if they do not like them. Sir Nicholas, talking of which, Michael

Gove and yourself do not exactly share the same views as you on the

EU, but here's one of the most courteous men in British politics.

He is also a great friend, and I have great respect for him. There

are very profound views on both sides of this argument, that's why

it is so difficult for people to come to a conclusion. I take issue

only with his... He has written an interview in the Telegraph today,

Michael Gove, in which he says that a post-Brexit return you would be a

beacon of light. Well, I think Britain is a beacon of light

already. I think it is a begin of light, hope, internationalism and

diversity. I think people have always wanted to come here and they

always will. I don't think this is something related to Brexit or

non-Brexit. I think Britain has been a beacon of hope for generations. I

hope that when people make their minds up, they will consider that it

is a finely balanced argument, but it is not a new argument. You get

people saying to you that you are dishonouring the memory of your

grandfather, Sir Winston Churchill, by staying on the soccer lick side.

Have you found it pretty heated? I have found it very heated. People

say, your grandfather would be turning in his grave. How on earth

do they know? It is 50 years since he died. He started his public life

charging on a horse with a sword and ended up as Prime Minister ushering

in the nuclear age. It was likely that his views changed very

substantially over that period of time, and between then and now, I

cannot believe that he would not have a very different view possibly

on what he thought 80 years ago on the potential European Union. So it

is very difficult to say. On the other side of the argument, we have

got David Cameron, and object, self-imposed human nation awaits...?

Yes, but actually... I think, to be fair, he probably did not write the

headline! Following on from what Nicholas said, the language is so

important. He has said all the usual things which he has been saying. But

I picked out that he said, there is not one credible voice which it says

Britain, I think he means the United Kingdom, would be better off for

opting to leave the United Kingdom. Is he really saying that those four

or five members of his Cabinet, who are talking about how we could do so

well outside the EU, and how it would be much more democratic, is he

saying that they are not credible? I think this is a last-gasp attempt by

the Prime Minister, in a language, I have to say, much less strident than

he has been doing recently... The language is changing. The language

is changing, but here still wrong. He is referring to the Governor of

the Bank of England, the IMF, and that these views cannot be

dismissed. I am in a perfect position on this sofa. We have an

authentic ditherer. I am! I read an article which says we should remain,

and I go, yes! And then I read an article... I got hundreds of e-mails

from people saying, they are also undecided. We never talk about the

don't knows. But there's million is of you. I think there's lots of

bashful Brexit is! This is Donald Trump. He has given

an interview to the Sunday Times. He has said he will talk to him and

Putin, you will talk to them all. Everything he is asked, I think he

has had media training. He has become very measured and not

pejorative at all. Asked about the view of David Cameron where he said

he was divisive, stupid and wrong in saying he was going to ban all

Muslims from coming into America. His reply was, I respect David

Cameron. He does not know me. I respect what he has done and what he

is doing. I imagine I would have a very good relationship with him if I

were successful. Sir Nicolas Adams has been looking at China Daily on

his iPad. -- Sir Nicolas Soames. There was an interview. He became a

Member of Parliament in 1976. He has been around the track on all sorts

of occasions. He is a staunch, pro-European supporter of great

experience. In his piece to the china Daily come he is talking that

the complexities of trade with China and the point that, whatever one

says of the rights and wrongs in this argument, putting together a

trade deal with anyone is not easy. Making the point that to put a trade

deal with Britain alone with China will be very complicated. The

notable point is he has finally announced he is going and that will

be a big loss to Parliament. A big, clever, experienced man. Let's talk

about another clever and experienced man, Tim Peake, who has fallen to

earth. If you had spent the amount of time in space he had, it eat in

air dried food with boiling water poured on them, what would you crave

most? The me, it will be a juicy steak with a glass of red wine.

Apparently he has been craving pizza. And a beer. I'm with him on

the nice, cold beer that not the pizza. Earlier, this morning, I told

the man who had been on the shuttle, an American spacemen. He had been

dreaming about eating salad. That really is not much to look forward

to. I love that he landed in the first thing he said, which was

really charming, the fresh air. Smelling the flowers and the fresh

air. After being six months in a space craft, it must be an

extraordinary moment. The effect of gravity wearing off must be quite a

thing and he is on the way back to see his family now. He has got back

just on time for Father's Day. There is a short article in the Sunday

express written by Prince William, the Duke of Cambridge. He is talking

about celebrating his third Father's Day as a dad. It is an interesting

article because he talks quite strongly against. It shows his real

determination to keep pushing the whole question of mental health and

the idea, the importance of having more resources into that whole area.

That will strike a chord with a lot of people. He is also pointing out

that dad is a very important. For some young men I see in my

constituency, sometimes young men feel devalued. They feel no one

really is interested in them. Sarah Baxter, rather movingly in the

Sunday Times. It is a fantastic piece which is quite curious. She

starts off by saying he was not around much because my parents split

up when I was nine and his job as a pilot took him away. She doesn't go

one to say... He had a belief in hand, that was the point. Her mother

played a very strong roll as well. I did not have a father figure in my

life. Single parents of either gender can do both. My husband has a

very strong relationship with our children and I do think, you know,

fathers are very, very important. The son of Leonard Cohen was saying,

what he valued about his father was he made a very good tuna salad. I

hope when I go, my kids will say, he made quite a good salad. Two

mentions of salad in the paper review. He would have thought? Are

you going to get a monstrous cake? If my children remember. After all

the publicity there has been, I hope they will. Thanks to you all.

Lovely this morning but what a grim old summer it's been so far.

I'm just a simple soul, who sits here patiently week after week

waiting for Peter Gibbs to bring me some happy news.

If you do not have any good news, make it up.

The sun is shining at the moment across the east of Scotland. A

beautiful start to the day. It will not last. Rain clouds are gathering

in the West. The rain is beginning to moving across Northern Ireland

and it will spread into Scotland, Wales and the western side of

England by the afternoon. It means we hang on to a bit of sunshine. The

easternmost counties of England in particular. Much warmer than

yesterday, up to 21, 22 in Norfolk. The high teens at best weather wind

and rain is piling in further west. The rain will continue to march

eastwards overnight so we will see a spell of wet weather. It will be a

fairly mild night with temperatures no lower than 14, 15 degrees. A bit

of a wet start to be Day across the southern half of England and Wales a

wet journey to work in many places. Sunny spells and showers following

on behind. There are signs that through the middle part of the week

we could see warmer, more humid air from the near continent. That could

well produce thundery showers. That probably will not meet your exacting

standards. The death of Jo Cox united

politicians in grief, and there will be tributes

to her from all sides But the paused referendum campaign

is getting back How will it be conducted over these

final few days? I'm joined now by the Labour

leader, Jeremy Corbyn. Before we start, you obviously knew

Tempra Ais a colleague. Any particular memories? -- Jo as a

colleague. She was passionate about Batley and spend. She grew up in

that area. I was there on Friday for a vigil. Biting memories in the

condolence book in the church. -- writing memories. They were totally

shocked and in grief for what happened. This was a murder of her

but it was also an attack on democracy and an attack on the right

of somebody to be represented to elect you and to go about their

business. We should also think for a moment of the two people who

intervened to try to help her. One of them is still in hospital, a

retired miner who tried to protect her. He will be out soon, we hope.

We have lost a great talent, someone who spoke up in Parliament for human

rights, peace in Syria and so many other places. People talk a lot of

the time about MPs. She was rooted in that place. She was one of

theirs. The whole point of democracy and involvement, when you elect

someone to a council, Member of Parliament but if you are to do your

job, you cannot leave the area of the people or the place that you

there. If we move our MPs into some sort of hermetically sealed

container where they are shipped from place to place, then we lose

everything. I love my constituency. I love my community. What I love is

just walking about, chatting to people, many of whom I have known

for many years. That way you pick up the reality of legislation, the

reality in our case of austerity and the poverty that goes with it.

You're better informed to do your job. If you are in some kind of

security bubble, you very rapidly lose all of that and we have to

defend that and we have to defend people against this kind of

appalling attack that took place. It is not the first time. Other MPs

have been assaulted. Stephen Timms was assaulted, George Galloway was

assaulted. A number of others have been assaulted. Ian Gow was killed

in 1990. Were you aware of the growing worry of physical attacks?

The Shadow Leader of the house said he thought eventually somebody would

be killed. We have talked about this and the levels of security that MPs

need and want. There is a degree of fon ability. If you have an open

office and an open advice bureau, which is what we all want to do. We

want to see everyone, no matter how difficult their lives are. We do not

want to be cut off from them. At the same time we need security of some

sort to protect people. It is not just for MPs, it is for everyone.

MPs just protecting themselves is of course essential and important as

tragically the death of Jo showed. Everyone else needs to be protected

against any kind of attack, whatever the appalling motive might be behind

the attack. UN the Prime Minister were standing shoulder to shoulder.

-- you and the Prime Minister. When the House of Commons regroups

tomorrow, they have had comments that the parties should mingle and

sit on each other's benches. We are thinking about that. Tomorrow will

be a dignified occasion, not a time for lots of long speeches. It is

about all MPs standing together. An MP has died. It is an attack on all

of us. We have to reach out. Do you think the recent political

atmosphere, the referendum or anything else can has created a more

anti-MP mood? I do. I think MPs are perceived to be cut off. In reality,

most are not. Decision-making is seen to be cut off and the lives of

so many people, where they face housing problems, insecurity at

work, falling living standards, problems where children do not get

any housing, all of those issues to make people feel, hang on, what is

the political situation ever doing for me? Reducing working conditions

are making life more difficult for people creates a sense of anger and

insecurity. What is the answer? Is the answer to kick out all get

together and do something different? One thing that is going on, if we

vote to leave the EU, part of the story behind that will be lots and

lots of traditional Labour voters not listening to you or the party

leadership on immigration are going in the direction of Ukip on

immigration. Do you accept that in some sense the party has lost the

day of a lot of your traditional, white working-class constituents? We

have had several years of endless newspaper headlines blaming

everything on migration without ever being prepared to look at the

guarantee of the expectation of people in this country and across

Europe. The Mike Ashley story, sports direct, Dennis Skinner made a

brilliant comment, when it was a pit, people from all over Europe

were working there as minors. The same conditions, the same housing,

the same union. Now there are several other people working on zero

hours contracts who have been shipped in from elsewhere. The

answer to that is not to blame them, the answer is, guess, at one level

to blame Mike Ashley but to blame the lack of regulation of working

conditions both here and in other parts of Europe. The workers

directive is very important. Do you think immigration should not be an

issue? There are a lot of people really, really worried about the

effects on school places, housing and public services and wage

compression. The reality is more than 2 million British people live

in Europe. Quite a lot of people from the European Union, mainly

Poland, have made their homes in Britain and are working, paying

taxes and all of that. The issues surely have to be to improve working

conditions, improved protection is all across Europe and look at those

who are making a great deal of money out of this exploitation. I mention

the posting of workers directive, it also about local wages and

conditions. If everybody had to be paid the relevant local rate, things

would be different. A number of people coming to the country would

probably be reduced. Do you think worries about immigration would

reduce? I do. There has to be the reintroduction of the migrant impact

fund which was introduced in 2008, which was a special payment that

will go to local authorities where there have been big changes. In the

same way that in the 1960s, the then Labour government introduced the

Commonwealth immigration fund for the same purpose. Some groups feel

they have been adversely affected. They will get more help for schools,

hospital places and so on. Absolutely. It brings people

together, to achieve a better society for all and recognise that

we have a lot of young people studying and working in Europe, we

have a lot of young Europeans working and studying here. People

move around. That actually is quite good all round. It gives people a

wide experience and actually helps to generate scientific research as

well as employment opportunities across the whole continent. Is there

an upper limit? I don't think you can have one while

you have the free movement of Labour. The free movement of Labour

means you have to balance the economy, so you have to improve

living standards and conditions. That means the European Union's

appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European central

bank as well as the European Union, that is a problem. So if you

actually deliberately lower living standards and increase poverty in

certain countries in south-east or Eastern Europe, then you're bound to

have a flow of people looking for somewhere else to go. Surely the

issue is, an and your sturdy, an growth package right across Europe.

So you can call yourself unequivocally a pro-immigration

politician? Brendan Cox, whose wife was killed, has said that

politicians at the top have been far too feeble in making the case for

immigration. They have allowed the argument to be made by the far

right. I spoke to Brendan last night and we were talking about this whole

issue, that the far right have been allowed to grasp the agenda. Nigel

Farage for example puts up that appalling poster, which has a

picture of a lot of desperate he pulled fleeing from war, saying,

they are coming to threaten us. Hello jigger I think Williams called

it right this morning when he said, we have to play our part in dealing

with the refugee crisis, all of us. It is a humanitarian crisis. But

there are lots and lots and lots of people around this country who do

feel that immigration is a problem for them. They feel their community

is changing very quickly, they feel their identity is challenged. They

are not racists, not far right people, just people really worried

about immigration. They feel that people like you are not listening to

them. I am not calling them racists. What I am saying is, it is a failure

of our government not to fund local authorities, not to provide housing

for people, and for the first time in 25 in 30 years, attacking school

budgets. It is that which is the problem, and they should turn their

anger against this government and the austerity which has been put

forward by Cameron and Osborne over the past six years. Your deputy, Tom

Watson, has said there has to be an end put to the free movement of

people, there has to be limits on migration - do you agree with him?

Tom and I had a chat about this. All of us are agreed that there has to

be a greater equality of working conditions. There has to be the

prevention of undercutting. There has to be an end to the idea of a

race to the bottom in working conditions. At the end of the day,

workers working alongside each other should be treated the same and have

the same rights. They should be paid the same. They don't, at the moment.

There are people watching right now who say, here is someone who is in

favour of uncontrolled immigration - that terrifies me. Those people now

have no choice but to vote to leave the EU. There is no uncontrolled

immigration. There is free movement of people across the EU, which goes

both ways. More than 2 million British people are living in Europe.

It goes both ways. There's uncontrolled immigration from

outside Europe, and there has been certainly ever since the 1960s in

quite a severe form. I represent a very mixed constituency, where there

are great problems of getting family reunion, and there are not equal

rights for people coming from Europe. They do not get benefits

immediately, they do not get access to housing immediately. It is not

totally uncontrolled. But in terms of EU migration, there is no way of

a British Government controlling that, and therefore, people worried

about that should vote for Brexit, because that is the only answer? It

is the very principle of a single market across Europe, the free

movement of people. If you have the free movement of capital, you should

also have the free movement of people. What I should think is we

should turn our issues on austerity in this country and indeed the

generality of austerity across Europe. We should also turn our

attention on tax havens and tax avoidance, which has only latterly

begun to be dealt with by the European Union. Britain has a big

role in this because as ground dependent territories, we have quite

a lot of tax havens. People might come to your constituency and say,

Mr Corbyn, I am really worried about the sheer number of people coming

here. I am sorry you do not agree, but it worries me a lot. Those

people are now moving towards the Leave side of the argument. If we

leave as a country, it will be partly because lots and lots of

Labour voters outside the metropolis and outside Scotland and the rest of

England, vote Leave. If we leave as a country, exactly the same

arguments will be made - about housing, about jobs, about social

security. All of those issues will be exactly the same on Friday as

they are on Thursday. The only thing is, it's going to be very much more

difficult, because the trade arrangements with Europe are now

quite deeply embedded to keep very large number of jobs in Britain do

depend on exports to Europe. I do not believe in catastrophe

arguments, but I say people should think very, very carefully about the

direction in which we are going. If we want to have good conditions and

good social security for all of us, that means it has to be thought of

in this country, but also across Europe as a whole. And also, let's

not turn our back on the humanitarian crises which exist

around the world. I ask people to think very carefully on the very

wise words of Rowan Williams this morning. Thank you for talking to us

today. In a moment, I'll be

talking to Michael Gove. But first, with only four days to go

till voting in the EU referendum, details of a special

programme coming up. Join us from Wembley Arena,

where key figures will be debating the most

important issues And it will be in front

of a live audience of thousands in a final

attempt to persuade you of We've just heard from Jeremy Corbyn,

reflecting on the death of Jo Cox and what it means for the tone

of political debate in this country and for the security of MPs

as they go about their work. I'm joined now by the Justice

Secretary, Michael Gove. Welcome to you. As Justice

Secretary, and as a parliamentarian, what are your reflections on Jo Cox,

did you know her at all? I did not know her well but I was tortured

fortunate enough to meet her almost on her first week in the House of

Commons, when we were in the tearoom and had forgotten her cash so I lent

her a ?5 notes to get a cup of tea. Did you get it back? Absolutely. I

struck up a conversation with her at the time, and had a few subsequent

conversations, and as so many people who knew how far better than me have

said, she is an amazing and wonderful person. She was a very

vivid parliamentarian. Yet she spoke with great passion and

effectiveness, she campaigned for causes she believed in with a great

heart. And I think she was the sort of person who all of us would want

our daughters to grow up to be like. She was an amazing person. I can

only grieve for her and in particular think of her poor

children and her Brive is burned, and I know the thoughts and prayers

of many of us at this time are with them. What is your view on the

debate we have been talking about on this programme about security for

MPs? I know all of you want to be out there on the front line, but

there is an issue now. A lot of female MPs in particular have become

worried about physical threats, rape threats, made against them regularly

on social media. People listen to these threats, and sometimes,

tragically, they act on them. You're right. Female colleagues in

particular have been subjected to the most horrendous abuse on social

media outlets like Twitter. I am thinking of Lucy, the incredibly

impressive and brave Labour MP who has faced horrendous anti-Semitic

abuse. Stella Creasy, again, a great camp pain, and my colleague Nicky

Morgan, who has also been on the receiving end. I think we need to

take a step back and think what we can do in order to make sure that

people in the public eye are kept safe. But I say two other things. It

is really important that members of Parliament remain accessible, as

Nicholas Soames and Kate Hoey said earlier. We are public servants. We

are there to be in touch and to reflect what our voters want us to

argue for. And therefore I think we must not try to need seal MPs away

from people whom we serve and one other thing - there are other public

servants who run daily risks, and as Justice Secretary, I think of prison

officers, those who work in the court system and police officers as

well. While I have been Justice Secretary, there have been

horrendous assaults against prison officers, and of course there has

been the murder of a police officer as well on, where side. So don't

forget them. -- on Merseyside. There are so many dedicated public

servants whose hard work we need to honour and whose safety needs to be

in the forefront of our mind. Sir Nicholas Soames said that the tone

of the political debate in this country has become more and more

aggressive and perhaps excessive as well. In the course of this

referendum debate, we all want robust arguments, but it has become

a little bit over the top, has it not worry people on both sides have

been pointing the finger, accusing each other of being traitors and

lying and all the rest of it - has it been too aggressive? Of course,

there have been moments when individuals have said things which I

certainly would not endorse. But I am very strongly in favour of free

speech. I think one of the things which is central to a healthy

democracy is the belief that people can express themselves and expressed

deep feelings with passion and force. One of the things not just

about this referendum campaign, but election campaigns as well, is that

people need to hear the arguments laid out, and the Advocate should

begin an affair run. I certainly think that there have been people on

the Remain side and on the Leave side who have made powerful,

impressive and passionate arguments. When we think about what is precious

in our democracy, and it is our democracy which we will be voting to

decide on, on Thursday, when we think about what is precious, then

free speech, robust debate, that is at the heart of our democracy. And

you don't think it has gone too far? Sadiq Khan, who knows a thing or two

about robust debate, has been talking about a climate of hatred,

negativity and cynicism. First of all, I admire Sadiq Khan, I think he

is proving to be, in his first few weeks, a good Mayor of London. I

entirely understand, after having been through a male role campaign,

why he will reflect on politics in that way. But I take a slightly

different view. -- a mayoral campaign. Instead of commentating on

the campaign, it is the responsibility of people like myself

in any campaign to make arguments. I entirely respect the right of

commentators like yourself and others, to draw conclusions and to

mark our homework, as it were. But I don't think we politicians should

mark our own homework. It is important for us to outline what we

believe and then let the people make a judgment. I don't think I would

dare module homework, Michael Gove. I know it was not your poster, but

that famous poster which went out a couple of days ago, from the Ukip

side of the Leave campaign, which had a big crowd of migrants, most of

them brown skinned, and it just said, breaking point - what do you

think about that kind of rhetoric? When I saw that poster, I shuddered.

I thought it was the one thing to do. Again, I must stress, I believe

in free speech. I don't want to deny anyone a platform. When I have had

the opportunity to talk about migration during the course of this

debate, I hope I have been very clear. I am pro-migration, but I

believe that the way in which we secure public support for the

continued benefits which migration brings, and the way we secure public

support for helping refugees in need, is if people feel that they

can control the overall numbers coming here. In Canada and

Australia, they have control, and therefore they are able both to

welcome economic migrants and refugees. I understand that. Let me

look to you what the statement said on Turkey. Since the birth rate in

Turkey is so high, we can expect to see an additional million people

from Turkey alone in the EU within eight years. Crime is far higher,

and so far... It sounds a bit like, those people are the threats. Are

you happy with the tone of that? Yes, because I think it is important

to stress that when we are thinking about the enlargement of the

European Union, it is the official European Union policy to accelerate

Turkey's accession to the EU. And a number of politicians, including

Theresa May, have said that at the moment they do not think that is

right. In particular, I have pointed out that the Turkish president has

been taking his country in a direction which I do not think is

progressive. All absolutely true. But within eight years? The Prime

Minister says Turkey would not be a member of the EU until the year

3000. The fact that the British government

wants Turkey to join is clear. The rate and speed will depend on a

bright era of political factors but it is the case that during the

course of this year the European Union has said it wants to

accelerate that process. When Turkey is becoming less democratic, that is

not the right thing to do. Does the talk of birth rates make you a

little queasy? It is important to take into account numbers overall.

The important thing is we benefit from migration. If the numbers are

controlled. We know that when Romania and Bulgaria joined the

European Union, there were predictions on either side about the

numbers that would come. Those people at the higher end of the

estimates were correct. It puts a strain on public services and it is

important when we're thinking about migration to look at numbers and to

make sure there is a balanced approach. Michael Heseltine said,

the Brexit case depends on fanning fears about immigration. I am amazed

that someone like you marches to the drum of my Farage, Donald Trump and

Le Pen. I think our campaign, which I must stress is cross-party, and

has the support of people like Frank Field and Kate Hoey from the Labour

Party people like David Owen, an Independent Democrat. It has been

characterised by the breakfast of voices. It is not the people who

have been leading the league campaign. It has been people like

Kate, Frank, David Owen and myself and Boris Johnson, who are not cut

from the cloth that Michael refers to. Let's move on to the economic

side of the argument. What will happen is inevitably some kind of a

gamble. Even if you say that the Treasury warnings are far too

extreme and some of the stuff we have heard about economic Armageddon

are going way, way over the top. Going from where we are now to a new

place does involve a job. We have talked about bumps in the road.

Michael Howard has said he does not worry about that. Surely you have to

accept it is a gamble we will be taking if people vote to leave. I

would not use the word gamble but I want to be absolutely clear about

this. Whichever way we vote, there are risks to our future and

challenges in the global economy. My view is the risks will be less and

the challenges will be easier to need if we vote to leave because we

will have control of the economic levers, the money we centred

European Union, the control over our laws. As a result will be able to

deal with whatever the world throws at us because people making

decisions on our behalf are emotionally invested in our future,

not people in Brussels and Strasbourg who are making decisions

based on factors. Millions of people are looking for unimpeachable

authority. If you work for Hitachi, who have said they will look again

at investment in this country or Rolls-Royce same thing, or John

Lewis, or JP Morgan, who are threatening jobs. They will listened

to their own bosses and rightly so full that they know about their own

industries. What is striking is there are so many bosses and

corporate leaders who have said, whatever happens they will continue

to invest in this country because the educational achievements, the

generosity of spirit, the hard work and creative genius of the British

people makes them believe in this country. More than that, there have

been a number of very important business people, James Dyson and

Bamford, for example. He and Anthony Bamford and Simon Wells, all of them

are very clear we would be better off if we left the European Union.

If you would not use the word gamble about taking the choice to leave, it

is a big, big change. What word would you leave? What it would be

would be an affirmation of faith and hope in Britain. I think Britain

will be taking its place alongside countries like Australia, Canada,

New Zealand and America as a self-governing democracy. Democracy

is one of the great gifts we gave the world. Other countries which

emulated our approach have prospered and that is a wonderful thing. I

think if we voted to leave, what we would be doing is saying the British

people, in their wisdom and generosity, have the ability to not

just govern themselves well but to be a progressive beacon to the

world. You mentioned Australia. The points system on immigration looks

like a very detailed manifesto to be handed to whoever is Prime Minister

after the result from the referendum. Is that on the ballot

paper? You have made various promises and listed bills with

European law, the Special Finance Bill, it looks like a manifesto. It

is a clear outline of the things we could achieve and we voted to leave.

Everything we have talked about, our policies we could embark on, they

are changes we could make which would benefit this country. If we

voted to leave, one thing is BLT on domestic fuel. We cannot remove VAT.

-- VAT. It would be a good thing and help the very poorest in society. Is

this on the ballot paper? People voting to leave the EU should know

this can only happen if we vote to leave. Do go to David Cameron

saying, here are the things you must do? I would say, now we have left

the European Union and there has been a clear vote, an instruction

from the electorate to us as a team to implement it, now is the time for

us to implement these proposals and give people both the tax reduction

that they hoped and believed we could receive only outside the

European Union and also the boost to the National Health Service. He

believes that leaving the single market will put a bomb under the

economy and does not believe in the Australian points system and so

forth. If he stayed on as Prime Minister, would he not simply be a

hostage Prime Minister, a puppet Prime Minister, doing what he is

told by the Brexiteers and the Tory Party? A humiliation for him.

Absolutely not. One thing about the Prime Minister if he is a Democrat

Patriot. When we had a vote in the House of Commons of intervention in

Syria in the last parliament, the vote went against the Prime Minister

and in what I believed. As a Democrat and patriot, he respected

that vote and then sought to follow the instructions the House of

Commons had given. On this occasion, the Prime Minister, if we vote to

leave, I know he will respect that instruction. We were elected on a

manifesto of which the referendum was part. There are also reforms of

the education system and the National Health Service which is at

the heart of what David Cameron wants to guarantee. I am 100% behind

all of that. What about the comparison budget that George

Osborne came up with? How can he have authority as Chancellor? I did

not say I thought the situation would arise. George has been an

outstanding Chancellor and he has rescued our economy from the

difficult circumstances we inherited in 2010. During the course of the

campaign, different sides, the Remains side, will make political

interventions. I disagree with that political intervention. It does not

in any way remove my admiration and respect for him. You could not sit

inside a cabinet and vote down what the Chancellor has said. -- Cabinet.

The argument that was made, on the basis of a speculative report, the

country might lose a significant amount of money if we were to leave,

I think that speculative report was wrong, our economy would be stronger

if we voted to leave the European Union and the situation does not

arise. A leading Tory donor said, business has lost trust in the

Chancellor because of the big manipulation of figures in the

referendum and a very strange arguments were so aggressive and

without proper evidence about what would happen will be to leave the

EU. For political union of the party, we need to think about the

new Chancellor. I completely disagree with that. I am a

free-speech guy. I respect the right people to put their cards on the

table. I think our economy is stronger with George Osborne as

Chancellor and I think our economy would be stronger if we voted to

leave. We would be able to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on

our priorities, like the NHS. Final quote from John Major. On the NHS,

it is like a small hamster. You are a hungry pipe and a new cannot be

trusted with the NHS. -- Tyson. I have enormous respect for the

National Health Service and for him. But first, a look at what's coming

up after this programme. We talk about the legacy of Jo Cox.

The reaction to the Church of England is praying for health. As

Tim Peake returns to Earth, we are asking, should we spend more on

space? Join us at 10am, if you can. We're nearly out of

time for this morning. On The Sunday Politics in an hour,

Andrew Neil will be talking to the former Liberal Democrat

leader Lord Ashdown. I'll also be talking

to the actress Helen McCrory, and no doubt some

political guests, too. But we leave you now with the young

singer and songwriter Jake Bugg. From his brand new album,

On My One, this is Love, # Crying for the one

who doesn't love you # You don't know why

he doesn't want you # So dry those eyes

and don't be afraid # Crying for the one

who doesn't love you # You don't know why

he doesn't want you # So dry those eyes

and don't be afraid # Cause the rhythm of

lovers ain't the same # No, you don't know it don't

come easy, come easy # I'm the first to have gone

and tell me if I'm wrong # I hope that I am

and you don't hate me # And I know, and I know

that you must hate me # Holding back the reasons

not to love you # But when you're

feeling down and lonely # So dry those eyes

and don't be afraid # Cause the rhythm of

lovers ain't the same # No, you don't know

it don't come easy # I'm the first to have gone

and tell me if I'm wrong # I hope that I am

and you don't hate me # And I know, and I

know, and I know that