26/06/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

And, by the way, is in anyone in charge?

My only, neutral, BBC thought is this: probably it won't be quite

as good as you hope - nor quite as bad as you fear.

My guests today include victorious Brexiteer Iain Duncan Smith

and Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon.

And the man sacked overnight from the Shadow Cabinet for -

his leader suspects - organising a coup against

Different feel to the weekend, different feel to

Later on, we'll hear from one of the few Remain ministers prepared

to emerge from his foxhole this morning, Sajid Javid.

We'll also be hopping to Westminster and Andrew Neil.

There's a sense of history in the making here outside parliament,

where in a specially extended Sunday Politics I will be speaking to keep

politicians about where we go from here, including former Prime

Minister, Tony Blair. My paper reviewers today

are the Guardian's Polly Toynbee, Tim Montgomerie of

the Times - very happy - and our own Laura Kuenssberg,

who has at last, I hope, All that coming up, but first,

the news with Louise Minchin. The BBC understands that up to half

of Labour's Shadow Cabinet is to resign this morning over

Jeremy Corbyn's performance A short time ago, the Shadow Health

Secretary, Heidi Alexander, The Labour leader has already sacked

the party's foreign affairs spokesman, Hilary Benn,

after newspaper reports said he'd been trying to co-ordinate

opposition to Mr Corbyn. Our political correspondent,

Chris Mason, joins me In the middle of the night came a

sacking. Then in the last hour, a resignation with, as you say,

further resignations are expected to follow. Those around Jeremy Corbyn

have concluded simply that he is a loser. Heidi Alexander, the now

former Shadow Health Secretary, has written to Jeremy Corbyn in the last

hours saying explicitly, more than ever, our country needs an effect of

opposition that can hold our politicians to account. As much as I

respect you as a man, I do not believe you have the power to shape

the policies we need. I feel a change of leadership is essential. A

move among senior Labour MPs to strongly make the case that Jeremy

Corbyn should go. It would appear that Jeremy Corbyn is defiant this

morning. He's saying he will replace those people who leave his top team,

and saying that he would hope to run again if and when there is a

challenge to his leadership. If the campaign group that helped Jeremy

Corbyn to get elected and morphed into a campaign group supporting him

since his leadership was secured, they make the argument that this is

tantamount to war. They feel that Jeremy Corbyn is brilliant. Thank

you. Leading politicians

in northern France are calling on President Hollande to scrap

immigration checks on the French side of the English Channel

following the vote. Under a deal reached

more than a decade ago, Britain can carry out checks

in Calais to stop migrants The French government insists

the current arrangement A ceremony will be held today

in the Tunisian resort of Sousse, where a lone gunman went

on the rampage a year ago, killing 38 people, including 30

British holiday-makers. The families of the victims

are holding their own acts of remembrance around the UK,

and a one minute silence will be observed at government

buildings tomorrow. The Tunisian industry has been

badly hit by the attack. The authorities insist that they've

improved security and that it's now safe for visitors to return,

but the British Foreign Office is still advising

people to stay away. People in Spain are heading

to the polls for the second to try to end the country's

political deadlock. December's vote was won

by the right-wing Popular Party, but it failed to secure an overall

majority and, since then, all attempts to form

a Coalition Government Now, as I said, it's a very

different kind of Sunday morning. And, if you'll forgive me,

I just wanted to start with a few thoughts,

because this is the most dramatic and important democratic decision

ever taken by the British people. But it leaves our

country deeply divided. The 17 million leavers

against the 16 million stayers. The minute you dig down

into the data, you find that poorer areas with more unskilled

and semi-skilled workers and more pensioners were much

likelier to leave. The map of the results shows

a yawning gap between the posh, better-educated and richer

parts of Britain - London, some of the city

centres elsewhere, university towns and so on -

and the huge swathes of post-industrial ex-mining

and struggling fishing Whatever the politicians tell us,

right at the moment, Now, none of this should come

as a surprise, nor can we really For the past 50 years,

we have seen a decline in heavy industrial,

making-things and exporting Britain, and a rise in service industries,

banking and culture which mopped up Under our last five prime ministers,

we became a shopping nation. London boomed as a global centre

while, ignored by too much of the political and media class,

places like industrial Wales, the Black Country and struggling

coastal towns became ever poorer, Meanwhile, waves of migration

and globalised culture washed among Whole communities changed

colour and language, leaving older people bemused

and cut off. As the numbers from Eastern Europe

rose, eager, white, hard-working new neighbours,

alarm grew in parts of the country. But the self-confidently

multi-ethnic liberal urban class, high on house prices

and high employment levels, were having such a good time,

they barely noticed. London spoke a lot,

but didn't listen. This has been the rebellion

of the diminished against the cocky, the ignored against the shapers

of modern times, on the struggling This revolt has taken us out

of Europe with huge consequences It has also taken out the leadership

of the governing party, and may soon remove the leadership

of the opposition party as well. In the House of Commons today,

nobody has a clear majority, and whatever administration

is cobbled together over the next weeks and months,

it will surely struggle We are today still a lucky country,

able to fashion our own future, But we are also divided, full of bad

feelings and in choppy seas, Andrew Neil has been

following events from Westminster round the clock -

part of the vast media encampment He'll be hosting the Sunday Politics

from there, immediately Andrew, what's your view on this

extraordinary week? Well, Britain has crossed the most

significant political watershed in my lifetime. It's not so much a new

chapter in our island's story as a new volume. There will be

challenges, some of which we haven't yet recognised, but the European

Union faces problem of its own. Eurosceptics as is on the rise from

Italy to Portugal and already endemic in Greece. Pro-EU parties of

the Centre left and centre-right are in retreat, harried and sometimes

defeated by more radical voices from both the right and left.

Anti-Brussels sentiment is at British levels across north-west

Europe. In France, the EU is now even less popular than it is here in

Blighty. Thursday's Brexit vote, far from being a case of British

exceptionalism, could well be the first in a series of rebellions

against the European project as currently constituted. This is not

to suggest that there could be a rush to the exit. The EU, almost as

much as the UK, is now in uncharted territory. Hard to disagree with any

of that. There is a huge referendum had a

huge petition supporting another referendum. The Express is in

cheerful mood. The Sun has the dirty side of the story. Project Smear,

people trying to smear Boris. There was a lot of talk of a antibodies

campaign. There is a picture in the Mail of Boris playing cricket.

Tories battle to stop Boris is the headline. Horace needs to lose a

little bit of weight! UK faces Brexit crisis as Europe's leaders

demand, get out now. The Sunday Telegraph, Tories at war. A very

tough, clear headline. We will start with that one. Also the Sunday

Times. Top Tories rushed to stop Horace bandwagon. Then Shadow

Cabinet in Corbyn coup plot. That story, the Tories at war. This could

have been Labour at war. It could have been Britain at War. Or Europe

at War. The volume and significance of the stories that we are seeing,

and the Prime Minister has just resigned. If you look through the

papers, there is very little on that, his time as Prime Minister. It

has been completely overtaken by events. It seems at the moment that

almost nobody has a clear majority in the House of Commons now. The

defeated Remain Tories don't, and the Brexit Tories don't either.

There is this weird sense of drift. Nobody is in charge. Do you agree? I

think it's true, and I think it's one of the reasons that Labour is

moving so quickly to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The new Tory leader

will not make the mistake that Gordon Brown made when he took over

from Tony Blair. As long as opinion polls give that new leader at

bounce, I think the new leader will go to the country quite quickly, to

get a new mandate to implement the kind of Brexit negotiations they

want. Because there was a question of legitimacy. It is a Tory leader

that the country didn't choose. Three quarters of the party are

pro-remain, and they have been given an instruction to leave the European

Union. A lot of people are so committed to that, I think they will

try to push against it. Laura is going to be a very busy woman over

the summer. Polly, I was mentioning the division in the country. Those

maps really show it. You have picked the Observer here. The maps to show

it. The Sunday papers have plunged immediately into the inside the

Beltway of Westminster, who is up, who is down. I think they have not

paused enough to consider the cataclysmic enormity which you

grasped at the beginning of this programme, of quite how huge this

is, what a seismic change in a direction we don't know where it's

going. But there are some very good analyses here. Rob Ford in the

Observer analyses, and it is excellent about who has voted what.

Here we have the divide between the political class and the rest,

between London and the rest of England, and the old and the young.

The young are very angry because 75% of them voted to remain. The old

seem to have taken control in a way that seems to be rather surprising.

Usually they are the ballast, the stabilisers. This time, they have

been the rebels, the anarchists. The young have said, let's hold on to

what we've got. They otherwise ones. They have seen politicians say,

Europe's is about to come our way, the reform is about to happen...

They know not to believe these policies. They have done the young a

favour by saying the project is doomed. To be older is not to be

wise, we have learnt! Laura, Polly said that the papers have not

grasped the sense of enormity. But the front page of the Observer has

some sense. It is saying, if that's what you want, you will get it

quickly. All the way through the campaign, Cameron has said that he

will trigger Article 50 immediately, the process to take us out of the

European Union. Believers have said, calm down, we will have a period of

informal chats. They are still hoping that is the case. Cameron has

changed his mind and said it does not have to happen immediately. But

our new neighbours have said, tough. We want to get on with it. But it is

not in their control when Article 50 is triggered. That gives us a

two-year window when it starts to run. Time is short and will weaken

Britain's hands in those negotiations, so it is in our

interests to delay. That is exactly the case, and it is

part of the reason why David Cameron felt that he had to go. You are

quite right, only the British Prime Minister can actually press the

button on this, but just a sense now of how we will not really be in

charge of this process already. David Cameron has to go to a summit

in Brussels this week, and he has already been un-invited to a session

on Wednesday. The crucial part of this Article 50 process is that the

departing party is outside the room. David Cameron has to say to them in

terms, I now trigger Article 50. It doesn't happen by acting in --

accident. Tim, you have picked a chirpy column from the Sunday Times.

Polly described it as cataclysmic, but all Britain has done is we have

chosen to be like most countries in the world, Canada, Australia, New

Zealand, Japan, countries that do very well without any part of a

supranational structure. Nobody around the world is copying the U

model, because they see the unemployment it has led to edit and

ability to make decisions. If you have 20 people around a table, it is

very difficult to get agreement. This is a lovely, optimistic piece.

90% of our exports is with non-EU countries. We will now be able to

negotiate trade arrangements with new countries, and France won't be

able to veto them, Denmark won't be able to veto them. We are now, as

the slogan says, in control of our destiny in a way we went in the

past. And this is interesting, because Rayhan was in the Remain

camp in the run-up to the referendum, but he is seeing the

Silver is. Yes, an ally of Steve Hilton, a passionate Brexiteer. Nick

Owen in the Observer says, what trouble is ahead. The people will

feel that they have been swindled, and the number of lies that Johnson

and Gove told, within hours you had them coming out saying, actually, we

are not going to change migration that much, which was the motivator.

But Mo both sides told lies, both sides smeared themselves in my view.

The BBC has to stand in the middle, but the truth is that what was

promised to people particularly was migration, and immediately they are

saying, I'm not sure we. Having that many EU migrants. People will be

outraged if that promises kept. The ?350 million a week, we don't think

that is coming back, it certainly isn't going to the NHS, and Farage

saying, we shouldn't have promised that anyway. All of the things that

people voted on the basis of, they are going to realise they have been

betrayed. Lets wait and see. If you look across the papers, the

overwhelming sense is that the entire British political class has

been toppled by this, the Labour Party as well. Absolutely, and the

people who have been privately critical of Jeremy Corbyn for a long

time, they now see this is their moment. The accusation is that he

didn't do enough to get Remain- tending Labour supporters out, and

we hear that MPs are plotting to get him out, and we are already in the

potential runners and riders territory. One of those not there is

Hilary Benn who was sacked overnight. Is it your sense that a

coup is now under way? Yes. Whether it will be successful is another

matter, but Hilary Benn were sacked overnight because he told Jeremy

Corbyn that he didn't have confidence in his leadership. In the

last hour, Heidi Alexander, Shadow Health Secretary but less well

known, has also resigned. Higher resignation is critical in this. We

knew that Hilary Benn and Jeremy Corbyn came to blows over Syria. We

knew that they had been at loggerheads, we know the Jeremy

Corbyn tried to fire him a few months ago and failed to do so.

Heidi Alexander has been a different thing. I think there will be more

resignations from other members of the Shadow Cabinet today. What

happens after that is a very big question. At one level, this whole

thing seems to be completely futile, because this has to be a election of

the entire Labour membership, and they are overwhelmingly, even now,

behind Jeremy Corbyn, there is yet another petition to back him. And as

long as his name is on the ballot paper, that is who the Labour Party

look like they will choose. There are two things here. If you talk to

Jeremy Corbyn's team, they say he will stand again and he has the

right to be on the ballot paper. There is disagreement over the

Labour Party rules, legal advice. And it goes back to Hilary Benn's

dad who stood against Neil Kinnock back in the day. Jeremy Corbyn's

team are confident he automatically gets on the ballot paper, but there

are people in the Labour Party who take a different view, so there

might be an almighty row over whether not he has an automatic

right to stand. And second of all, the assumption at the moment is that

the new members of the Labour Party who Jeremy Corbyn so ends use last

summer, who pulled off an amazing feat I getting nearly 200,000 people

to join the party, that is astonishing in these times. The

assumption is that they are still overwhelmingly backing him. In the

last 48 hours, don't underestimate how unhappy some Labour MPs and

party members are about the decision of people to leave the European

Union. There is a poll today showing 29% of Labour voters say they would

not vote Labour at the next election. You have to remember how

few Labour voters there were any way at the last election, so to lose a

third is a real crisis the Labour, and that is what is motivating.

Nobody knows who might come up as candidates next. And it hardly

matters whether it is somebody of left or right, they just need

somebody who looks as if they can lead, galvanise, inspire, and I

think the left/ right business will be less important than who has some

charisma. I want to jump from Labour sadness to Tory sadness, but before

we do, Polly, you have the Sunday Post, Dundee's great national

newspaper on your iPad there. 59% yes for Scottish independence. Will

that be enough? Nicola Sturgeon has been wisely saying she is not going

for another referendum unless she knows she will win it, so she needs

to know she has an overwhelming majority. If she gets that for two

weeks, that will be enough? Who knows if it is enough. She will lose

some of that during the course of the campaign when they go back to

what currency, will it be the euro, what will it be, and they go back to

the oil price. I think she needs to have a very high Yes poll like this

for a very long time before she goes for the vote. And she has to

persuade met Westminster to allow it to happen. Nicola Sturgeon has

absolutely tried to seize this moment to be out in front, saying

this is what should happen next were Scotland, but in Westminster, there

it is gushing about whether one part of the country can stay and one

leave. And Tim, the other big leadership question is of course

Boris Johnson. A fairly brutal headline their inside the Son on

Sunday, you have killed off our Prime Minister, we will get you. How

serious is that? Very serious if you look a year before Margaret

Thatcher, David Cameron became leaders, they were not leadership

contenders, and this is because candidates come forward because they

have such weighty campaigns against the current leadership. I am holding

in my tummy now as I do this press review after your comments on his

white! Boris will be subject to a lot of attacks over the next two or

three weeks. Huge numbers of Remain supporters inside the Conservative

Party. We had John Major in this studio a little while ago saying

that Number 10 and Number 11 feel that. And isn't it the case that

after what happened in the referendum, the Tory party has to be

led by a Brexiteer? A lot of people will think Theresa May has played

this very wisely. This isn't just about the Tory leader, this is about

who is going to be the Prime Minister, and 150,000 Conservative

members will choose that. I think Boris is responsible enough to take

that, I think there will be doubts about that. The British people, the

electorate will decide eventually. Thank you very much to all of you.

Let's talk about pathetic fallacy - you know, nature mimics

our inner feelings - storms on voting day,

quite a lot of sunshine afterwards, but it's all incredibly volatile,

Over to Stav Danaos with the weather.

Thank you, Andrew. The skies were volatile yesterday, hailstones in

places. We have a weather front pushing in across western areas

already, into Scotland and Wales in south-west England. The best of the

sunshine reserved for the East, with the best of the temperatures, 21

Celsius. This evening, the rain continues to come eastwards, and

overnight it clears away from eastern areas but leaves some spots

of drizzle. With the cloud, it should be a fairly dry night. At

break serve rain overnight into tomorrow, but Monday looks like

being a fine day. It looks pretty good across the south-east,

temperatures in the low 20s Celsius. A good day for tennis at Wimbledon

getting under way, lots of games going on with very few

interruptions, but it looks like as we head on into the rest of the

week, we have rain in the forecast. Well, the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon

could not have been clearer. She fought last month's election

in Scotland on a manifesto which explicitly said a vote

for Brexit would lead her to seek But overnight there are reports that

Brussels isn't going The First Minister joins me

now from Glasgow. Is it your priority to have a

negotiation as Scotland with Brussels to allow Scotland to more

or less seamlessly stay inside the EU? My short answer to that is yes,

but let me expand on it. Please do. The first thing I would say is, I

didn't want to be in this position this weekend, I hoped it campaigns

to help persuade people across the UK to stay in the EU, but people in

England have voted differently to be built in Scotland. Scotland voted

overwhelmingly to remain a member of the European Union, so my challenge

now as First Minister is to work out how I best protect Scotland's

interest and tried to prevent us being taken out of the EU against

our will, with all of the deeply damaging and painful consequences

that that will entail. Independence is not my starting point in this,

protecting Scotland's interest is my starting point, but if it is the

case that is looking again at the question of independence becomes the

only way in which we can protect Scotland's interests, that is a

debate and a decision that the people of Scotland have the right to

take over the next period. But in all of this, it is about protecting

Scotland's interests. If we do find ourselves in the position of looking

again at the independence question, this is not going to be a rerun of

the 2014 referendum. The context of the circumstances have changed

dramatically. The UK that Scotland voted to remain within in 2014

doesn't exist any more, and this is a case of how do we best protect the

stability and interests of Scotland. So you would like to be Prime

Minister of an independent country, but you are First Minister of a

country that is not independent, so how can you lead a delegation as it

were to Brussels and are given Scotland's interests while Scotland

is still inside the UK? I am certainly going to seek to do that.

The reality is we are in unprecedented territory here. We

have heard people of the last couple of days talking about the rules that

will apply to the Article 50 process. The reality is there are no

rules, there is no precedent, this has never been done before, and what

happens from here on in is unprecedented. My position is to

seek to protect Scotland's interests. Have you spoken to anyone

in Brussels about this yet? I will be speaking to people in Brussels

over the next few days. I haven't done that yet. We are in a period of

only a couple of days since this vote happened. I understand that. My

priority is to seek to detect Scotland's interest in uncharted

territory. I their challenges for Scotland in this? Of course there

are, but I want to have an open conversation in Scotland about how

we best lead this country forward. Are two options going forward as

regards to Brussels. One, you have a successful negotiation which allow

Scotland to stay inside the UK, and then move more or less seamlessly

back into the EU, that seems to be being turned down by Brussels today.

If they turn it down, you have to go into the queue to join as a new

independent country. Which would you prefer?

There are a number of options and I am not going to be rushed into

saying which is the best. I don't think that anybody has turned

anything down. The Mail on Sunday has poured called water on our

democratic aspirations. The substance of that story appears to

be, here are the rules that will apply with the Article 50 process.

There are no rules and no precedent. My job over the coming days, weeks

and months is to seek to discuss and negotiate the best way forward for

Scotland, and I am going to do that in a way that tries to unify people

in Scotland. You are still part of the UK at the moment. There are

suggestions from the Leave campaign is that they want Scotland, Wales

and Northern Ireland to be part of a UK wide delegation to go to Brussels

to discuss the terms of exit. Would you be part of that? Scotland voted

to stay in the European Union. We made it very clear. More than 60% of

people across Scotland voted to stay. Every single local authority

area in Scotland voted to stay. It was emphatic. My priority is to

protect Scotland's interests, but my starting point is to protect

Scotland's interest within the European Union. This is not just a

matter of principle. What will happen with the UK is that there are

going to be deeply damaging and painful consequences of the process

of trying to extricate the UK from the European Union. I want to

protect Scotland from that. I don't want to see the damage done to our

economy, society, culture and place in the world. Back at the time of

the 2014 referendum, one of the problems the Yes campaign had was

over the currency. But can you share a pound with a UK that is outside

the EU if you are in the EU? Let's take this step-by-step. We are in

very different circumstances to those in 2014. One of the important

differences is, in a sense, this would not be a decision about

Scotland leaving anywhere. This would be a decision about Scotland

staying. So the moral argument about us retaining the current terms we

have would be even stronger than in 2014. Can I react for currency, if

you wouldn't mind? On the currency, I am not saying just now that there

are not questions and challenges that Scotland would have to face up

to. I am not going to be rushed into giving definitive answers today. We

need to work through these decisions. The important point is as

we do this, in 2014, I was convinced that independence would be best for

Scotland. But understandably, some people in Scotland saw it as a

chance -- a choice between stepping into the unknown and the security of

staying within the UK. That is not the case just now. That is why

Scotland's continued membership of the EU is so critical. If you cannot

get back in again until the UK has left, which seems the likelier of

the options dog-macro you don't agree with that? I don't. We are in

our chat -- in an charted territory. The point here is that we don't want

to leave. We don't want to leave and get back in. We want to stay. You

need that voice to be heard while you are still part of the UK. Haggui

go about doing that? What is the timetable? Who will you speak to? I

am not suggesting that the path ahead is without complexity. The

Scottish Cabinet has made very clear that in the days, weeks and months

to come, we will seek discussions with European Union institutions and

other member states to explore all options to giving effect to the

democratic will of the people of Scotland. My guiding principle is

the best interests of Scotland and protecting what Scotland voted for.

If Scotland is a member of the European Union and England isn't,

there then has to be a proper border, with controls and checks.

Whatever happens with Scotland, this issue of the border is going to have

to be resolved in the context of Ireland. Some of these issues that

would arise for Scotland in these circumstances arise anyway in the

Irish context and will have to be resolved. I don't want to see, in

any circumstances, a border between Scotland and England. England is our

nearest neighbour and I hope will always be our best friend. But

Scotland has chosen to be... I am not prepared, at this stage... You

may have to go into a referendum saying, the currency is the euro.

You are jumping several steps ahead. We are in uncharted territory. Not

because of choices Scotland have been made but because of choices

that have been melt elsewhere. -- made elsewhere. I have a job to do

to protect Scotland and negotiate the best way forward for Scotland. I

look at what is happening in Westminster and just now with a

sense of utter despair on behalf of people in England and other parts of

the UK, as that vacuum in Labour and the Tories expands. There is no

vacuum in Scotland. I am going to do everything I can to prevent Scotland

being taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of

that would be devastating. We will get a new Conservative Prime

Minister. What happens if that Prime Minister says to you, Nicola

Sturgeon, you had a referendum in 2014 and I will not allow you to

have that now. I think people in Scotland would find that

unacceptable. I don't think it is acceptable, in the context we find

ourselves in, for anybody to do try to dictate to Scotland the terms of

how we seek to take the country forward. I would caution any future

Prime Minister against putting themselves in that position. Thank

you for talking to us this morning. The referendum divided

the country and the Cabinet. The Business Secretary Sajid Javid

said his heart was for Brexit, but he ended up backing Remain

because he said uncertainty So how does he feel

about the outcome now? You work very closely with George

Osborne. When are we going to get the punishment object? The country

has spoken. It is a clear decision. The people of Britain have issued

their instructions, and my job is to focus on delivering those

instructions on making sure they work. I think we can make them work

for the country. You and your allies promised this country that if we

voted for Brexit, there would be a brutal punishment budget. Taxes

would go up and spending would be slashed. When will that happen?

There was a very robust debate throughout the campaign. What

matters now is what is going to happen. You said what was going to

happen. You said that a punishment budget would be imposed on the

British people. Now you are pulling back from it already. My job as

Business Secretary is something I have been focused on since 7am on

Friday when the result was clear. It is to make this vote of the British

people work. They had every right to make this decision. I am going to

work with businesses, organisations and people across the country to

make this work. During the campaign, you said, within two years there

will be a recession. A 3.6% contraction of GDP, higher

inflation, house prices 10% lower, and a loss of over half a million

jobs. It will make our country poorer. Deuce till believed that?

Throughout the campaign, many organisations made many forecasts.

What matters now is the reality of how we face this momentous decision

for our country. I am focused on speaking to businesses, I have

spoken to many of them since 7am on Friday. They employ millions of

people. I have spoken to businesses large and small and their

representatives. I am listening to those businesses, their anxieties

and their concerns. Do you believe the words you uttered a few weeks

ago or not? I believe the reality that is in front of me. Do you think

we are heading for a recession and the loss of half a million jobs? If

we all work together, we can avoid many of those things that were

forecast. We have a chance to do that. You were part of Project Fear.

You were warning people of things that were going to happen. You were

being dishonest during that time. You said there would be half a

million jobs lost. Now you are not saying that. I think it is wrong to

accuse anyone of dishonesty. It was a robust campaign with lots of

emotions on both sides. The campaign is over. April have made up their

minds and the instructions have been issued. We will come together to

make this work for the country. On the Today Programme, you said that

house prices would fall and we would lose half a million jobs in this

country, GDP would go down and so would- -- so would house prices. Did

you not mean it? What I meant were all the issues that came up in the

campaign. That is over. Businesses provide all the jobs in our country.

I want to provide even more jobs. It is a time for reassurance for

businesses. My message to businesses is that there is no need to be

panicking. We have to have a calm approach, which is what we have seen

since then. And forget the things we said during the referendum campaign?

Our economic fundamentals remain strong. They are strong enough to

weather any short-term market volatility. Nothing will change for

at least two years, so businesses can plan around that. Let's look at

the opportunities this throws up. Businesses will have talent is, but

yes, they will have opportunities. There is no point anyone taking

sides any more. The decision is made. Everyone in government is

focused on making this work. There will be a new Prime Minister in

October. The Prime Minister can make key decisions. Right now, we have a

job to do. I'm getting on with it. Your party has to choose a new

leader. Does it have to be someone from the Brexit side of the

argument? We have good people on both side of the argument. It is a

decision that MPs will make first of all, and then the party at large.

The good thing for the Conservatives is that there's lots of talent in

the party. The Prime Minister said he couldn't do it because he didn't

believe in the way that the country was going to do. He didn't want to

put a bomb under the economy. You and your colleagues are going to put

that bomb and pull the trigger. Whoever becomes Prime Minister in

October has momentous decisions to make. They have to carry a whole

country with them, not just the Conservative Party but the

opposition too. All sorts of organisations. That is going to be a

momentous job, and we have the talent in the party to do that. This

has been a terrible few days for the Prime Minister, a personal tragedy,

in a sense. A few words about the Prime Minister, who you know well. I

am very sad about what has happened. He has been a great Prime Minister.

Just look at his achievements. He brought our economy back from the

brink over the last few years. He has made social reforms, he has made

strides with welfare. I am sad to see and go. Since he made his

decision yesterday, the Bull have been coming up to me and saying, I

didn't vote for him but I was proud to have him as my Prime Minister. It

is a big change for the country. When should we trigger Article 50?

That will be a decision for the next Prime Minister. What David Cameron

said was right. There's no need to decide that now. Eventually the

country will have to do it. We want to take the time to make these

decisions. We don't want haste. There is a sense at the moment that

there was no kind of leadership in this country. We are drifting.

Business really dislikes that. Businesses want to see more certain

sea. They are concerned about some of the changes that will take place.

Leadership is there. There is no vacuum here. I am getting on with my

job, as is the Chancellor and my other colleagues. The government

will stay in place, as will the Cabinet, until October. The new

leader will come in and he or she will put in a new government. It is

business as usual. Speaking of the Chancellor, do you know what has

happened to him? He's been getting on with his job. Have you spoken to

him since the vote, and does he intend to stay on as Chancellor?

Of course I have been in touch with him. We run two big economic

industries. Is he going to stay on as Chancellor? That is not a

decision for me. You must have asked him. You can't have had a

conversation with him without asking! That is not a question for

me. I want the entire cabinet to stay on, we have a period of

instability, this is a big decision for the country, and people want to

see stability. So when will we see him next, do you think? Invite him

on the programme and see what happens! We have, he wouldn't come.

Thank you for climbing out of your foxhole this morning. Thank you.

Hilary Benn has long been a quiet critic of Jeremy Corbyn's

leadership, but this morning it does look as if a full-scale

coup against the Labour leader is under way.

Mr Benn was sacked overnight for disloyalty, and he joins me now.

Good morning. It has been a short night for you, I apologise. Just

talk us through what happened in the small hours of the night. Can I say

first of all that this has been a difficult decision for me, because I

agreed to serve in Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, I didn't vote for

him but I thought we have a responsibility to support him as the

elected leader of the Labour Party, as I have supported every Labour

leader since I was elected to Parliament. That there has been

growing concern about his leadership, and I said to him that I

no longer had confidence... To him first? I no longer had confidence in

his leadership, and he dismissed me from the Shadow Cabinet, which is

understandable, and I thanked him for having given me the opportunity

to serve as Shadow Foreign Secretary. But the position is this.

At this absolutely critical time for our country following the EU

referendum result, the Labour Party needs strong and effective

leadership to hold the Government to account as we take decisions of huge

importance for the future of our country. We don't currently have

that, and there is no confidence that we will be able to win a

general election as long as Jeremy Renner Ainsley do, and I felt it was

important to say that. -- as long as Jeremy remains leader. We have set

Heidi Alexander announce her resignation this morning, rumours of

others to follow. You have been talking to these people. Will we see

more resignations? Of course, members of the Shadow Cabinet, as

you would expect in the aftermath of the friend, it is up to each person

to make their decision. I made mine, and I made my views clear to Jeremy.

He is a good and decent man, but he is not a leader, and that is the

problem. You call him, presumably? I did. When you called him, you knew

that he would therefore have to fire you. You cannot call your leader and

say you have no confidence in him and then carry on. I wasn't entirely

surprised, but it was important I had that conversation with him

Thomert and he took his decision, as he is entitled to do. Do you accept

that what you did was disloyal? I said what I believed to be true, and

I think in life and in politics, it is extremely important. I have been

a member of the Labour Party for 45 years, and like lots of people, I

have devoted my political and a lot of my personal life to it, and that

I think things are not working, I have a wider responsibility to the

party that I love to speak out. Although a number of people will say

this is not an ideal time, there is never an ideal time, but it isn't

working, and therefore I felt it was important to speak out. Let's talk a

little bit about the timing. It was less than a year ago that Jeremy

Corbyn was elected leader on a massive landslide vote inside the

Labour Party by ordinary Labour members, trade unionists and others.

And now it appears there is a coup against him by parliamentarians, who

are much smaller in numbers, and this is happening at a time of

national crisis when the Conservative Party are tearing

themselves apart, many would say, and an election looms quite quickly.

Isn't this the worst possible timing to be doing this? I wanted Jeremy

Dean be able to succeed, that is why I agreed to serve in the Shadow

Cabinet. Not everybody who had previously been in positions of

responsibility agreed to do so, but it has become clear that he is not

succeeding, and there is never an ideal time, I recognise that, and I

understand that there will be those in the party who are very, very

unhappy about this, but we have a wider duty to the party, and I think

the country needs a strong and effective labour opposition. Can you

walk us through the next few days? Whether or not we get more

resignations, there is a Parliamentary party meeting on

Monday, the possibility of a secret ballot on Tuesday on a motion of no

confidence which Ann Coffey and Margaret Hodge laid down. Ultimately

it is the Jeremy to make his own decision and four other members of

the Cabinet, the front bench, to decide what they are going to do.

But what we need more than anything else is strong leadership to deal

with the challenge that the country faces, because the decisions you

have just been discussing with Sajid Javid, Article 50, personally on

that, I think we need to work out what kind of relationship we want to

have with Europe. It is very important that we continue to have

access to the single market. It is clear that in the referendum, the

majority sent us a message about free movement, and we have to accept

the decision of the referendum, although I am sorry about the

outcome. Is there any possibility of the Labour Party at an election, as

the Liberal Democrats seem to be doing, to say, we are standing to

the election on the basis that we think the decision to leave the EU

was a catastrophe, and we are not going to implement it if we are

elected and do our best to frustrated? I think we have to

respect the democratic decision and the democratic will of the British

people... I'm glad you said that. I think it is important. However sad

we may be about the outcome. The decision has been taken, we have to

make the best of it. We have to heal the wounds that have been created by

the campaign and bring the nation together, because a nation that is

divided on such a fundamental issue is not good for the future of our

country. Have you decided yourself whether to stand for the leader of

the Labour Party? I am not going to stand, and I haven't taken the

decision I did because I wanted to, I did it because I think it was the

right thing to do because I care about the future of the party we

have committed our lives to. In some respects, this seems like a futile

coup attempt, because whatever the party decides to do this week, even

if they decide overwhelmingly they don't have confidence in their

leader, that decision has to go back to the mass membership of the party

who, as we know from the polls, are still vehemently, enthusiast Italy

in favour of Jeremy Corbyn, so whatever happens in parliament, the

Labour Party will choose Jeremy Corbyn again, won't it? It depends

on whether Jeremy chooses to step down, or whether he chooses to fight

again. But I would also say to you, Andrew, from conversations on the

doorstep and with Labour Party members, there are people who voted

for Jeremy Lomas year who are now saying, it is not working, is it?

And I think the party will reflect on that. In the end we have to

decide if we want to be an effective political force capable of winning

support. We have to win support from people who didn't vote for us in

2015. A poll today says just under one third of the people who voted

for us in 2015 said they wouldn't do so now, and that would be

catastrophic for the party as well as for the country, because we need

a stronger defective Labour Party. And looking at what happened in this

referendum campaign, a lot of those people will go to Ukip? That remains

to be seen, but we have to show that we have listened to the message,

that the majority, the 52%, have sent us. There are a number of

reasons to do with that to do with the EU, sovereignty, immigration was

an issue on the doorstep. Also communities have seen profound

change, insecurity, all jobs disappearing, worrying about the

future, housing for their children. These are the challenges we face as

a generation, and the Labour Party has to show that we have understood

and we will come forward with policies that will help to deal with

all of this. All that being the case, do you think Jeremy Corbyn

should now resigned? I no longer have confidence in him, and I think

the right thing for him to do would be to take that decision, but that

is a matter for him, just as the decision that I have taken has been

a matter for me. Do you have a candidate in mind to replace him?

No, I don't. This is not about that. If there is a leadership election,

that will be a decision the Labour Party members, and each of us will

have a vote. This is about telling the truth that is increasingly

widely felt that the leadership that we currently have is not working,

and in those circumstances, we would not be doing our job if we didn't

say that openly and honestly, and that is what I have done. If he is

trounced in this vote of no-confidence next week, it happens,

do you think it is over for him then? I think it is very difficult

for the leader of any political party to survive a vote of

no-confidence of the members of Parliament that he is leading, but

we will have to see what happens. We are in a very unstable position

where we could have the leader not supported by many of his own MPs but

supported by the party in the country. Wouldn't you need some kind

of new structure in the Labour Party to deal with that? I don't think

that is an issue to talk about today. The fact is we have to deal

with the situation we find ourselves in. We had the referendum campaign,

and I don't blame Jeremy Chardy outcome, but I think people saw that

he didn't bring a great deal of enthusiasm to the task. -- I don't

blame Jeremy for the outcome. Some people on the Corbin side of the

argument say that you are leading a coup against him. I wouldn't

describe it as that myself. How would you describe it? I have come

to the conclusion that I no longer have confidence, and you have to be

honest about that, and therefore I was saying to him I couldn't

continue to serve, and he dismissed me, and that is absolutely his

right. And it is not surprising that he did so. And it is for others to

take their own decision, but if this is the conclusion you reach about a

party that we care so much about, then I think the right thing to do

is to be straightforward and open about it, and consequences will

unfold. Hilary Benn, thank you very much indeed for coming in to talk to

us this morning. Thank you very much.

Of the senior Cabinet ministers who turned

on David Cameron to support Brexit, Iain Duncan Smith was out

of the traps first and remains a hugely influential figure among

He was followed by the Justice Secretary Michael Gove and then

Boris Johnson. We haven't heard much from them, so what is the plan now?

Iain Duncan Smith, good morning. Can I ask first of all about some of the

promises made by your side of the argument. Is the ?350 million we

were told would go to the NHS going to go to the NHS? That was an

extrapolation of the ?19.1 billion, the total amount of money that last

year we gave across to the European Union. Your side said it was all

going to go to the NHS. What we actually said was that a significant

amount of it would go to the NHS, and that is going to be down to the

Government, but that is what will happen. So that ?350 million will go

to the NHS? Some of it will go to the NHS, but there are also things

like agriculture that are part of that, it is never total, but it is a

commitment that we will stand by. On the other one is the migration

commitment. I want to get onto that, but I want to carry on with this one

first. If all of that ?350 million, almost all of it, goes to the NHS to

build a hospital every week or whatever it is going to be, that

means that quite a lot of money in regional and structural funds which

are included in that, which goes to Cornwall, Wales, other parts of the

country, universities, can't go to those... What was said at the time,

we hand over ?19.1 billion, half of which is gone into the European

Union, and other bits come back correct it by the European Union. So

we said throughout that we would stand by some critical areas, those

areas that are being funded in structured and reasonable funds --

regional funds, we wouldn't be losing half our money, and we would

stand by commitments made to things like agriculture. The rest were a

series of possibilities beyond what we could do with the commitment. Is

how much of the 350 is going to the NHS? Of the money that we give when

it never comes back, a large share. But the other half of the 350? Let

me remind you about your posters. You suggested in your posters. Let's

give our NHS the ?350 million the EU takes every week. That is pretty

explicit. And that is down to the Government and what proportion they

want to do. But the point everyone should bear in mind is that that

money which goes to the European Union, that comes back, that money

now is able to be spent on a priority like the NHS, with other

money that had already committed... But it won't be ?350 million. That

is a promise broken. I said that the lions share... You wrote it on the

side of buses! It will be a lot more money for the NHS, that is the key

point. Let's move on to immigration. Daniel Hannan, an important part of

the Leave campaign, said there was no promise to get immigration

sharply down, which was a surprise to a lot of us. We'll immigration

now come down sharply? I'm not sure what he actually said, that he is

the commitment. The Government itself stood on a manifesto pledge

to get migration down to tens of thousands, and I stood believing

that is the case, I think you should work to deliver your manifesto

pledges. During the course of this campaign, this was a big issue, and

I said consistently throughout the what we need to do is get control of

our borders, and the anyway to do that is to leave the European Union,

it is a red light area for us, and then we are in a much better

position to achieve that in objective of bringing down migration

to tens of thousands within this Parliament. I will stand by that, I

believe my Government should stand by that, and that is what I fought

that referendum on. So we will see a sharp decline in the EU side of

migration to this country, and presumably an Australian -based

points system? It is now the job of Government to ensure that what they

actually have is a clear target for overall numbers, which has been

missing for some time, partly because we don't have the control

over the European end of migration, but also because I suspect the other

side of we have been less clear about the points-based system about

bringing in talent and not allowing so many low-paid low skilled workers

to come in, and we need to bear down on that, because that is one of the

big issues. But there will be a points system? That is what I

believe is the right way to do it. And what about the VAT cut? My point

about migration is this, we have a manifesto commitment was not being

delivered on before, and the biggest part of that, part of that problem,

is that we did not control our borders, and now we have that

opportunity when we leave to deliver on that. In the meantime, we should

be trying to deliver on that anyway, because that is absolutely what we

got elected on. Currently, your side of the argument

in the Conservative Party does not have a majority in the House of

Commons. Are you going to get it through the House of Commons? The

main message I want to take to my colleagues is that we have had this

debate. It was robust, and angry at times. It is the nature of

referenda. They do divide families and communities. The key point is we

are in government. We have a set of commitments already made to the

British people. The referendum was clear. The British people have said

they want to leave the European Union. Instead of raking over the

coals of this now for days and days, I say to colleagues on either side

of this argument that our job is to come together and deliver on the

commitment to leave the European Union. There are a whole series of

other obligations to come, such as red lines over border controls. They

are part of it. You say there is a complication because we don't hold a

majority. The Conservative Party is in a majority in the House of

Commons. There are some Labour MPs who believe this should be delivered

on, as do I. There is a significant sense that the government itself has

a majority. There are some who don't want to see it through, but there

are others... We have an obligation to deliver on the British people's

verdict. That means that no matter what your view... I said publicly

that if the view was that we should remain, I would support that, and

that would be the end of the debate for me. It is about ending the

debate and getting on with it. Your party needs to choose a new leader.

Do you think that the new leader has to come from the Brexit side of the

art and? It is clear in my mind, that whoever takes up the job... By

the way, let me say that I am very sad that the Prime Minister has

taken this decision. I have said that I wanted him to stay for

stability, and he has done a very good job through some tough times.

But the main point is it would be very difficult for the public who

have voted for leaving the European Union to find that they then had a

Prime Minister who was opposed to leaving the European Union. It is

quite clear that at least the leadership end of it, but I would

like all the others to come together. So you don't think that

someone like Theresa May could be a plausible candidate? It has to be

someone like yourself or Michael Gove? I'm not standing! So it is

Boris Johnson or Michael Gove? At the end of it all, my sense is that

there is a clear decision, and what has to happen is delivering on that.

Somebody who has been involved in that clearly has to be the case. The

government had a view, which was to remain. We need to change that

position and actually deliver on this very clear mandate from the

British people and stop raking over the coals. During the campaign we

were told again and again by people over your side of the argument that

this would be a mature, benign negotiation with European leaders.

They seem to be in a very, very different mood today. I'm

fascinated. We would told that there would be serious consequences for

the UK. The market fell, the market came back to where it was in

February. Listening to what European leaders have been saying, which was

raised by Tim Montgomery in the course of your newspaper review,

that there is a seismic issue taking place across the European Union.

Germany has slapped down the president of the European Union, or

the Council, by saying, of course we have to sort this out that the UK.

We want to get on with it. And we should trigger Article 50 quickly?

Whether it is Article 50, or a mixture of European and domestic

legislation... We need to get going on the shape this negotiation takes.

That is up to the new leader. I want to bring colleagues together. I am

doing so over the next few days. I want to look to businessmen, to QCs

who are clear on legal ramifications, and start to build

the position going forward. That is the legal bit. Last question. Nigel

Farage thinks that he should be part of the negotiation team. Do you

accept that he has the right, after all of those folks, to be their too?

I accept that Ukip played a part in the process. I accept there is a

Ukip MP who is part of parliament. I am happy to discuss with Ukip about

what their expectations are. But the government itself actually dictates

how this will happen. Are you sure there is not an establishment stitch

up to stop wrecks it happening? A lot of voters would want Ukip to be

represented at the top table. They would have that expectation. But we

have got to get on with getting the structure right. Europe is now ready

to talk about having free trade deals. We should move on to that as

as soon as possible. Thanks for joining us today.

In modern Britain there is no more over-reproduced,

more cliched national motto than Keep Calm and Carry On.

And never a moment when we required it more.

And now, over to Andrew Neil at Westminster.