03/07/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

There hasn't been a week like it at Westminster in my lifetime -

political assassination, treachery,

and the herding of bewildered and frightened MPs,

who's going to be the next Prime Minister?

who really wants that job - though he's always told us he didn't -

of destroying the career of his good friend Boris Johnson.

And by a dark horse coming up fast on the rails, Andrea Leadsom.

Now, don't forget, with the enormous lead Theresa May has already built

up, chances are only one of them can make it to the final ballot.

But Labour's in at least as much chaos as the Tories.

I'm joined by the man who defeated militants back in the 1980s,

Neil Kinnock, and modern Labour's ultimate power broker,

Len McCluskey, leader of the Unite union.

Here to review the papers, Iain Dale, Conservative commentator

and radio presenter, Corbyn-supporting journalist,

Rachel Shabi, and Philip Collins, the Times columnist.

And on this weekend of footballing triumph for Wales, how else

could we end the show but with the anthem which has

James Dean Bradfield of the Manic Street Preachers is

here to perform Stronger Together, C'mon Wales.

So, lots to come, - but first the news,

In the latest development in the Conservative leadership

contest, two rivals of the frontrunner, Theresa May,

have criticised suggestions she should be appointed

without a ballot of party members taking place.

Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom, who both campaigned to leave the EU,

have also questioned whether the next Prime

Minister should come from the defeated Remain camp.

The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has issued another defiant message

to those within his party who are putting him under

Writing in the Sunday Mirror, Mr Corbyn urges his critics

to "respect the democracy of the party", whose members

overwhelmingly voted for him in last September's leadership contest.

Mr Corbyn writes that 60,000 people have joined Labour in

The First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, has demanded the UK

government immediately guarantees the status of EU nationals

She said the referendum meant that more than 170,000 EU citizens

in Scotland were facing anxiety over what would happen to them

and their families, but politicians at Westminster say more talks

are needed before the issue can be clarified.

Two days of national mourning have begun in Bangladesh after 20 people

were killed in an attack on a cafe in Dhaka.

Six attackers were shot dead when police ended the ten-hour

So-called Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attack

and said the gunmen deliberately targeted foreigners.

The FBI has questioned the US presidential candidate

Hillary Clinton over her use of emails while she was

A spokesperson said it was a voluntary interview.

The FBI is investigating Mrs Clinton and her aides over

whether they mishandled classified information

Yes, this has been easily the most dramatic, blood-spattered

and spectacular week in British politics since I started reporting

But for people's jobs and savings, there is also much more important

I think it's too early to say whether or not so-called

The markets jagged down in shock, but have now recovered -

FTSE's best week since 2011 - and, connected of course,

But a lower pound is, for exporters, excellent news.

And other parts of the world want to take advantage of Brexit.

Australia and New Zealand are already talking

But - but - leading banks have been gathering to discuss how many people

they are going to move from London to Dublin,

George Osborne, who is still Chancellor of the Exchequer,

still thinks we face a post-Brexit recession.

"that the country's going to be poorer".

The university sector is extremely worried,

and at least one airline, easyJet, is looking

into moving to the Continent to protect its business.

Basically, a lot of powerful business people are sitting

So, nothing matters more than doing a deal to keep European markets

as open as possible, and that can't be done

until we have a proper, functioning government,

and that can't happen until we have a new Prime Minister.

Now back to the gory spectacle, and our papers review.

Everyone knows what is on the front pages, and we have a fantastic

spread of bright red ink and gore and cartoons. Who is going to start?

In a week of cartoonish politics, let's start with the cartoon in the

Sunday Times. You have got Theresa May kicking Michael Gove in the

back, stabbing Boris Johnson and stabbing David Cameron. This was the

week in which the modernisation of the Conservative Party, which began

with Theresa May declaring that they were the nasty party all those years

ago, has really eaten itself. She didn't say that, she said we are

seen as the nasty party. It was a compliment, because it was the sense

that people had of the Conservative Party, and it was the point at which

they started to recover public estimation. And this week, that

project has eaten itself like revolutions tend to. And the

question is what happens next. Rachel, you have the Sunday Times

front page, which is against the idea of a coronation. Yeah. Tory

rivals unite to oppose coronation. The Leave candidates for the party

leadership, Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom, who both feature in the

Sunday Times today, are both saying, she is not representative. If the

country voted to leave, you need a Brexit leader. And they don't want

this process by which the Conservatives would somehow corral

around Theresa May. The Conservative Party are quite ruthless and they

don't really pay much heed to things like a democratic process of

electing a leader. We will come to that later in terms of labour. But

yes, a coronation would happen because everyone else dropped out,

leaving only one candidate. That is unlikely. You can see the logic of

it that in the interests of getting national unity and calming the

markets. But nobody has mentioned that it was Theresa May in 2003 who

said there have to be a ballot to elect Michael Howard. She was party

chairman at the time and she insisted that there had to be a

ratification. So I am not sure. I don't think this is coming from her

camp. I don't think she wants a coronation. But you can see the

logic of it. The most brutal front page was the Mail on Sunday. Gove is

a political psychopath, says Rachel Johnson, Boris Johnson's sister. I

to that in a second. Their headline is Hypocrite, and the Mail on Sunday

have come out for Theresa May, just as the Daily Mail has, which is

unusual because they usually disagree with each other. This is an

odd story saying that because Andrea Leadsom, a few years ago said we

shouldn't leave the EU... But it is a collective responsibility. She is

quoted as saying that leaving the European Union would be an economic

disaster. Which was the government policy at the time. So there was

collective responsibility. All the time we are having this conversation

about the Tory rivals, none of them has presented us with what we need.

If we are leaving, what is the plan? How are we leaving? Do you want a

Norway model? Do you want the single market? Can you not tell us so we

know what is happening? To be fair to him, the man who has come nearest

to a plan is Michael Gove, who has said we will not be in the single

market and laid out his vision. What does that mean if we are not in the

single market? He put his vision in the Sun. They have a very good

interview with Michael Gove, where they lead on the fact that Boris

Johnson now will not answer his calls. He is leaving lots of voice

mail messages for his former friend Boris Johnson. And the poison that

has been injected into Tory politics is clear. Michael Gove this week

gave a speech which was very substantive and an odd speech for a

leadership Lord, because it contained so much. His message is,

let's not just talk about Europe, we have also got a country to run. In

all of this, things are still going on. There are still a health

service, education, welfare policies. Is anybody doing anything

else? Michael Gove gave a 40 minute speech which was very detailed.

Theresa May was quite detailed. Andrea Leadsom is launching

tomorrow. She is on the front page of the Sunday Telegraph. It says she

could be the next that show, except she never said that. -- the next

Thatcher. I think this is a fresh face in the contest, which will be

an advantage and disadvantage to her. She is not that well known, so

she has to use interviews like the one you are about to do to project

herself. I think she has the personality to do that. She is clear

in her political background and ideology. It is very different from

Theresa May's. You know the voluntary wing of the Conservative

Party. What is your sense of how they are thinking? I was talking to

a Conservative MP this morning who had held a social do in his

consistency is much and he said there was little appetite for

Michael Gove, that they viewed him as doing an Ed Miliband, who stabbed

his brother in the back. They think Michael Gove has done something

worse. Not only did he stabbed Boris Johnson, he stabbed David Cameron in

the back as well. He said the majority were in favour of Theresa

May, but they want to hear more from Andrea Leadsom. This line of the new

Thatcher is all over the place. It is a lazy lion. Margaret Thatcher

had been in Parliament for 16 years when she became leader of the

Conservative Party -- a lazy line. She was a national figure. So to

become Prime Minister five or six years after becoming a member of

Parliament is extraordinary. Let me just interrupt. Before we get bogged

down in this, the Observer editorial has made a good point, which is that

after a week of chaos, who will save us from this parade of beautiful

leaders? It is something that even Bush picked up on in the New

Statesman as well. He said part of the reason why there is so much

internal focus that you two seemed to enjoy talking about is because

they are incapable of looking outwards. They don't have what it

takes to lead us, which is worrying. It might be said that one of the

woeful leaders is Jeremy Corbyn. It might be said that one of the woeful

things is that he has an attempted coup by the PLP, which is out of

touch with the membership. We have an interesting democratic problem

for the Labour Party. The membership overwhelmingly back Jeremy Corbyn.

But the voters and the MPs don't. So you have these two rival

electorates. There is an important piece in the Sunday Mirror, where

Jeremy Corbyn has a short piece in which he says for the first time

that he will be a candidate if there is a challenge against him. As he

puts it himself with unintended irony, I am going nowhere. If there

is a challenge, he is trying to hang on until the Chilcot report on

Wednesday, and he has made it plain that he will stand if anyone

challenges him. If that happens, there is every chance he might win

the subsequent election because of his popularity. At that point, the

Labour Party may split, because 172 Labour MPs have declared no

confidence in him. You cannot un-declare that once you have said

it. This letter in the Mirror is him offering an amnesty. But the deal

involves him being leader of the Labour Party. He is saying there is

bad blood and let's get over it. We need to examine the reasons for him

remaining. It is not because he has been bloody-minded and is hanging on

for Chilcot. It is because he has a democratic mandate and a lot of

people support not just him, but the policies he represents. It is the

first time the British public has had an anti-austerity platform in a

party, and that is more important than him. What do you think happens

to the Labour Party if he is now pushed out in a parliamentary coup?

I don't know how he could be pushed out. If he is strong-armed into

standing down, but it is perceived that the MPs did it to him? But we

are not understanding the reasons for him remaining. He is trying to

democratise the party. He believes in grassroots democracy. He believes

that that is how change happens. So the idea that he would be persuaded

to do something so undemocratic, I don't see it. The Observer have this

amazing story that Jeremy Corbyn's aides are refusing to let him have a

meeting with Tom Watson, the elected deputy leader of the Labour Party. I

find this astonishing. It is not true. It is by a reputable

journalist. But they have denied it. You are in a pretty poor position if

you will not even have a meeting with your deputy leader. There are a

couple of other big stories, one of which is Europe. We have been

talking about British politics, but this has European wide implications.

We do love all the leadership stuff, but it is worth pointing out, as the

Observer does, that the shenanigans here have a series of impacts in

other countries too. There is a lot going on in Brussels and across

Europe. The exit of Britain from the European Union will have a series of

consequences for the European Union itself. There is a series of big

questions which we must be careful not to lose as we worry over whether

Andrea Leadsom could be Prime Minister.

Rachel, if you can do the Chilcot inquiry in 30 seconds, we have time

to talk about Caroline Aherne. Just to say the Chilcot inquiry is coming

on Thursday, it has been written about in the mail saying it is

overdue and he has cautioned against having a generic everyone wants to

blame. He thinks we should focus on who was really responsible for what

happened, in other words Tony Blair. Caroline Aherne's 's death all over

the papers. Best moment? I loved it when she said to Barbra winced, are

one of us, the great big film star but still, and as -- common as muck.

She will be forever remembered as Mrs Merton but she did so much more

than that. I watched the episode last night and Mrs Merton dates a

bit. She was the voice of the Royle Family, and Gogglebox.

Labour leaders battling the Left is a very familiar theme

in the Labour Party, but to have a left-wing leader

deserted by the majority of his parliamentary colleagues

Neil Kinnock fought off militants back in the 1980s.

How does he view Labour's predicament now?

You have called on Jeremy Corbyn to go, but in a sense why should he? He

has the backing of the membership with huge numbers of people coming

onto the streets over the weekend saying must stay. There are lots of

people outside Parliament who support him. It remains to be seen

how many members of the Labour Party in the vote would support him

because, as you will have seen from this morning and recent days'

evidence, there has been a significant shift away from Jeremy

and members across the country, including newly joined people, have

got deep residual doubts about the possibility of him leaving the party

to election victory. That means that he should reconsider his position on

those grounds but in addition the constitution provides, very

sensibly, for a party in parliament and also provides that the leader of

the party must have a substantial amount of backing from Labour

members of Parliament. I can read in a couple of seconds the provision in

the party constitution, and that means that unless the leader can

have that substantial support in parliament, then there should be a

contest or the leader should consider his position and do his

duty to the party and resign. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn needs a certain

number of nominations to get onto the ballot paper? That happened to

you when Tony Benn took you on. Yes, in 1988... It had faded in my memory

to tell you the truth but because of current conditions I looked back at

history. The situation was that the Labour movement accumulated

nominations for Tony Benn, which satisfied the threshold in those

days, and obviously I had to secure nominations. The actual figures were

29 for Tony Benn, and 130 for myself. We went to the party and the

party decided by 88.6%. You refer with a point! Yes, because I have

looked back. Obviously you don't dwell on these things and keep

looking back at it, but that's what happened. It meant there was a

straight contest and the party decided with the constituency

parties supporting me. The situation is different now and Corbyn

supporters think that because he has such support outside Parliament he

has absolute right to be on the ballot. The question is what if he

wins again? This will just take a second, the provision of the chapter

four Labour Party rules, where there is no vacancy nominations may be

sought by potential challengers each year prior to the annual session of

party conference. In this place, Mark these words, any nomination

must be supported by 20% of the combined Commons members of the

Parliamentary Labour Party and members of the European

Parliamentary Labour Party. Nominations not attaining this

threshold shall be null and void. In certain circumstances in which 172

Labour MPs voted for the motion of no-confidence in Jeremy and only 40

voted against, his position potently under the Constitution, under the

rules of the Labour Party, under the Democratic provisions the Labour

Party, and the common-sense provisions of the Labour Party that

a leader must have substantial support in the Parliamentary party,

obviously there is no basis on which Jeremy really could or should stay.

What about all those people watching this programme who paid their ?3,

very idealistic young people who back Jeremy courting, who said my

say has been negated. Not at all, they are very welcome in the party

and some of us have been at pains to express that emphatically because

they provide a vibrancy, a potential for the future of this democratic

socialist party that we were needing. Now then, they have got to

then decide whether they are serious about putting their principles into

power by democratic election under a leader that is credible in a party

that is united or whether they actually joined up to a social

protest movement that is content to complain and to turn up to the

funerals of communities and industries while the Conservatives

have yet more decades of power. That is the decision that comes before

these people, who are serious about their politics which is why they

joined, but they must understand and they do understand in their

thousands that the purpose of being engaged in politics is to secure

democratic power and Jeremy cannot do that. Alistair Campbell has

joined on people to -- called on people to join the Labour Party to

oppose Jeremy Corbyn. I have met several people in the course of this

week as recently as yesterday who have joined explicitly for that,

many of them Labour supporters throughout their adult lives, but

now knowing they -- their participation can make a difference

for the potential of the Labour Party securing power. I am about to

talk to Len McCluskey who is effectively a big power broker these

days so what is your message to him? Think about your members, which he

constantly does. Recognise that sentiment in our union on the basis

of polling evidence and the basis of acquaintance with members of the

union know that they have moved away from Jeremy Corbyn, and if they take

the stance that says to Jeremy for the sake of the party and its

potential, for the sake of Democratic Socialism, Jeremy, you

have to step down. Thank you for joining us today.

But Peter Gibbs is here to tell us when summer

I suppose disappointing summer weather one of the least surprising

aspects of the week just gone but it has come good today. If you are

lucky enough, you are in for a treat at Wimbledon so have a great day

there. There is rain not too far away, just clipping into the south

coast of England. That's where it will stay. Some showers for northern

Scotland, some in Northern Ireland, southern Scotland and northern

England as well but that leaves a big slice of the UK without any

rain, with plenty of sunshine, lighter winds and as a result it

will feel rather warm. Overnight most places dry. Some showers across

the north-west of Scotland, fairly dry, temperatures dipping away but

to similar levels than we saw last night. Tomorrow, the return of the

rain. This time to Northern Ireland, to southern Scotland, northern parts

of England as well. Still bright to the north of that, feeling quite

fresh. To the south of it, fairly humid air being drawn in. It will

feel quite warm and humid, but looking ahead the best I can say is

probably more sunshine and a bit less rain.

Well, that's all right. Today might go down as summer so enjoy it.

Andrea Leadsom was one of Vote Leave's star players

during the referendum, and is generally reckoned to have

Buoyed by that success, the Energy Minister is now

She's decided to run for the Tory leadership in her own right,

rather than back another candidate, and she's with me now.

Can I read to you something you said to the Hansard Society in 2013. You

said, I will mail my colours to the mast here, I don't think the UK

should leave the EU, I think it would be a disaster for our economy

and lead to a decade of economic and political uncertainty at a time when

the tectonic plates of global success and moving. Why was that

Andrea Leadsom so wrong? It has been a journey. When I came into

Parliament I had grown up as part of the EU and it is part of our DNA. I

set up something called the Fresh Start Project, which took hundreds

of hours of evidence about how the EU impacts on the UK from everything

such as immigration to fisheries and so on. I travelled all across Europe

with lots of Parliamentary colleagues to try and get a real

decent fundamental reform of the EU. In that very same lecture, which you

are obviously not quoting today, I was very clear that the UK's current

situation was totally untenable and that the only way we could remain

part of the EU was if we had fundamental reform. The status quo

was not an option. I made clear in the rest of the speech what the sort

of reforms should be. When the Prime Minister came back with his

renegotiation, with the certainty of a referendum behind it lending power

to his elbow, it was very clear the EU is just not reform the ball. That

speech was in 2013 and things have moved on. The reason we have

listened carefully to the whole speech is that nonetheless your

fundamental point was, despite all of that stuff, coming out of the EU

would be such a big shock we shouldn't do it. That has not

changed, has it? I think it has. The risks of remaining in the EU

massively magnified since around that time actually. As did the

determination of the EU institutions to go further, faster. They have

sacrificed a generation of southern European young people to up to 50%

youth unemployment to poverty. Greece has lost 25% of her economy.

We have this massive migration crisis south things fundamentally

change but at the same time the UK's economy has been recovering. The

Chancellor did a fantastic job. So you completely disagree with George

Osborne who said we will be a poorer country as a result. Yes, I

disagree. If you became leader, you wouldn't have him in your

government, is that right? I'm not even slightly at that stage but I

genuinely believe the next person to lead this country has to be somebody

who believes in the opportunity of leaving the EU, who genuinely

believes our place in the world could be so much better if we leave.

So why should it be Andrea Leadsom? You had a lot of experience in

banking before you came into politics but you are relatively

inexperienced at top-flight politics. You have not been in the

Cabinet, unlike Michael Gove or Liam Fox. Why you and not them? I

absolutely believe that people who have real-world experience, I mean I

have been in financial services for 25 years before coming into

Parliament running enormous teams, small teams, start-up businesses,

being part of a huge bank. I have also set up and run charities. I

have a huge passion for the early years, for the real social justice

agenda and I genuinely believe leadership qualities need people who

profoundly believe in things. In a sense you are saying it is time for

some outsiders, the politicians have screwed things up so bad it is time

to bring people in from the outside. I'm not saying that at all. I

genuinely want to do some things for our country to make it the greatest

country on earth and I believe I have the experience of the real

world as well as a good amount of experience in Government. I was city

Minister for one year, I have been energy Minister for one year. I have

a good deal of understanding about politics. We don't know much about

your programme but you have said you would trigger article 50 to begin

the negotiation to leave as soon as is humanly possible, is that because

you fear that Brexit somehow won't happen?

Is that she because you fear a stitch up? I don't think there is a

stitch up. It is not about leaving the EU, it is about giving certainty

to businesses and saying to the world, we're open for business. It

is about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

competition, from EU migrants for your jobs. We just need to get on

with it and make progress. The other side of the argument is that once

the clock starts ticking, you have limited time to get the deal, and

therefore you are in a weak opposition. That is why Michael Gove

has said there is no hurry behind this, but you want the clock to

start digging. Does that we can your negotiating position? I genuinely

don't think so. I probably know more about the EU than most people in

government right now, apart from some who have spent their whole

careers looking at it, for whom I have an immense regard. I genuinely

believe on trade with the EU, we currently trade tariff free. We had

43 years aligning our goods and services to theirs. There are strong

financial reasons to continue to trade tariff free. You have had a

huge amount of support for your campaign already. My Twitter feed is

crammed with it, but they are almost all Ukip people. Arron Banks wants

to fund your campaign. Are you content to be the candidate where

the Conservative Party and the Ukip party touch fingers? I don't

recognise what you are saying. Support is pouring in from Ukip

people. I don't know how you can say they are Ukip people. Arron Banks

certainly is. He is one person. I have had support from people who

say, I am traditionally a Labour voter, but if you got elected, I

would vote for you. I don't think it is fair to say I am just being

supported by Ukip. The undertone of your accusation is that those are

not nice people. No, it is a friendly question. In answer to your

friendly question, I am delighted by the wide range of support,

particularly from young people, who say it is not true to say only older

people wanted to leave. We see our future in the world. Would you have

Nigel Farage on your negotiating team? He is the great victor of this

in many respects. Many say he should not be pushed out by the West and

star establishment. I don't want to get into who would do what. Many

would say in this period of uncertainty, you could end this now

and let Theresa May be the next Prime Minister. We would have a new

government and we could get on with other things. Businesses would be

much reassured. What is so important about getting Andrea Leadsom on the

ticket that is worth putting the country through weeks of

uncertainty? I would not frame it in the way you have. Theresa is a

superb candidates, no question. But I genuinely believe the country

needs to be led by someone who believes fervently and understands

the opportunities of leaving the EU. People voted to leave. She

understands, she said Brexit is Brexit, I get it. But somebody who

says I have been told to leave so I will leave, with no enthusiasm, is

very different to somebody who absolutely sees the sunlit uplands

of leaving the EU, the prospects for our children, grandchildren and

business of being open to the world. And secondly, I just don't think it

would be right to have a coronation. People need to have a choice of

candidates. David Cameron changed the political landscape when he

published his tax returns. Will you do the same? O... Less. I am

perfectly happy to publish my tax return is. I would not want to make

MPs have to do that. I don't believe people should have to disclose

everything. Now you are candidates for top office, would you publish it

before the vote? I would have to think about it, but in principle, I

have no problem with it. I don't want to set a sudden. Couldn't you

just say yes? All right, yes! Thank you for joining us.

The chorus of Labour MPs, activists and grandees calling

for Jeremy Corbyn to go continues to mount.

We heard earlier from Lord Kinnock, the last surviving former

leader to add his voice, but one of Mr Corbyn's most loyal

allies in the Labour movement is standing firm.

Len McCluskey is the leader of Britain's trade union

You are still in the position where despite everything, you think Jeremy

Corbyn should stay and fight as the Labour leader? Yes, I do, and it is

an helpful for ex-leaders to be wheeled out. Neil Kinnock is a nice

man, but he was leader of the Labour Party for eight years and lost two

elections. Ed Miliband led the Labour Party for five years and lost

an election. Gordon Brown had 30 years at the top of our party,

including Prime Minister, and lost an election. On that basis, you

would be willing out Tony Blair. I will not rule out Tony Blair, but

the willingness of grandees to be part of an edifying to is

outrageous. This has been a political lynching of a decent man,

undermined, it humiliated, attacked, in order to push him out. And the

coup has failed. Jeremy Corbyn is made of stronger stuff. He is a man

of steel and he has made it clear that he will not step down. The

people doing this are not the usual suspects, the Blairite MPs, they are

people like Angela Eagle, MPs on the left of the party. He has lost them

as well. I am amazed that some of the MPs have fallen into a trap. I

think they have been seduced by sinister forces. If the BBC want to

do an investigatory programme of a company called Portland, feel free

to do so. This is a PR company with strong links to Tony Blair and

right-wing Labour MPs. We cannot be associated with words like sinister.

They have been involved in this orchestrated coup, and it has

failed. I am astonished that people have left their posts at the very

time that we need to be scrutinising this Conservative government after

Brexit. We need to know about our members' jobs. We need to know about

employment rights, and Labour MPs should be fighting for us. But your

own union seems to be turning against Jeremy Corbyn. That is not

true. A pulse of 79% opposing. A poll of half a dozen people. Than

have a new poll. Neil Kinnock's serious point is that a lot of your

members are desperate for a Labour government. They feel their living

standards have fallen, and that is best served by a Labour leader. That

is why nine months ago, my union supported Jeremy Corbyn. It is not a

long time. If you examine the real polls, we have had four by-elections

that Labour have won and increase their majority in three of them

considerably. We won the London mayoral election. Even the local

elections in May, where people were expecting Jeremy to do badly, Labour

did better than the Conservatives. That was the high watermark of Ed

Miliband. That is the extraparliamentary case for keeping

Jeremy Corbyn as leader, inside Parliament, you now have chaos. And

it cannot carry on. It can't carry on. Let me make this important

point. The trade unions have always been the anchor that has kept the

Labour ship steady stormy seas. Because this crew has now failed,

the trade unions can broker a peace with Jeremy as our leader and the

genuine concerns of the PLP. I am calling upon Angela Eagle and Owen

Smith and anybody else to desist from challenging. What kind of deal

could you offer them? There are all kinds. We are professional

negotiators. You would bring in a different Shadow Cabinet? We would

bring both parties together and resolve this. If Angela goes ahead

with this, and I hope she doesn't, the alternative is that we are

plunged into a civil war that will be bitter and ugly and may never

allow the Labour Party to reunite. Why would people want to do that?

Give us a chance. Give the trade unions, who have always been a solid

block within our party, a chance to bring the party together and resolve

our issues. You have said that if Jeremy Corbyn is not on the ballot

and there is a balance, the Labour Party could spit. He will be on the

ballot. You just heard Neil Kinnock reading out the party rule book. And

he talked about candidates, not sitting candidates. The legal

opinion is clear. Do you think there should now be honest leadership

contest? I don't. And suggesting that Angela and Owen Smith should

desist from this. They should allow the trade union general secretary 's

to broker a peace. That is the way forward so that we can reunite and

challenge this government. When you say these people are dupes of a PR

company with sinister forces behind them, do you think they are that

stupid? Do you think they have not made their own minds up about Jeremy

Corbyn? There have been rumours of two is going on since Jeremy was

elected, quite disgracefully, by a core group of MPs -- rumours of

coups. People have been seduced into the belief that now is the time,

because of the European referendum. A 21% of Labour MPs voted to remain

-- 81% of Labour voters voted to remain. 68% of Liberal voters voted

to remain. Some people will be saying then McCluskey thinks Jeremy

Corbyn can take the ship onto the rocks and sink. That is not true.

Look at the results we have had since Jeremy has been leader. Thank

you very much. Michael Gove's dramatic entry

into the Tory leadership race has made this contest already more

bitter and bloody With one blow, he took out the man

assumed to be frontrunner. But now he faces some

formidable opponents That is the problem you face now.

Many of your own party and the newspapers see you as somebody who

betrayed your close friend, Boris Johnson, and your close friend,

David Cameron. For that reason, you will not win. I am in this

leadership contest because I want to advance certain arguments. I believe

that as the next Prime Minister, we need someone who believes Britain

should be outside the European Union. I have taken difficult

decisions, but I have taken those because I put my country and

principles first. If I had wanted to be leader out of personal ambition,

I could have announced my leadership bid last weekend. A number of people

were asking me to put my name forward, but I deliberately did not,

because I wanted to put the national interest first. Or because you

wanted to destroy Boris Johnson's career. You did not have to do it

the way you did. If I had had a difference with a friend, I would

have driven across London to my friend and I would have said, there

is something we need to discuss. You didn't do that. You left him in the

dark until the last moment, humiliated him and destroyed him

publicly. I came to the conclusion reluctantly, after throwing my heart

and soul into trying to get Boris to become leader of the Conservative

Party, that he could not do that job. What was the essence of the

problem? Until the 11th hour, I was talking to Parliamentary colleagues

and friends, seeking to persuade them that Boris could be Prime

Minister. But in the final 24 hours, there were actions taken and

decisions that were docked. Which actions and decisions? It has been

laid out in the papers. Boris had the opportunity to build a team and

to lay out a vision, and I felt he did not step up to that challenge.

And there was a deadline. In different circumstances, we could

have had a conversation, but the deadline was noon the next day. I

faced a basic choice. Can I recommend to the country and to my

colleagues that Boris was the right person to lead us as Prime Minister?

I could not in all conscience do that. I knew that by taking that

decision, all sorts of people would attack me personally, but I love my

computer. I could not recommend that Boris was Prime Minister. I tried to

make that work -- I love my country. It would have been a betrayal of

principle and this country to allow his candidacy to go ahead with my

support. So instead, you betrayed him why not going to see him and

telling him what you were doing. It was not just a decision by you, it

was an operation by them. No. A lot of people moved to your cap very

quickly. Phone calls were made to journalists very quickly. I took the

decision very late on Wednesday evening. I went to bed at 1:30am. I

reflected on it, I woke early in the morning and decided. I decided that

I could not, in conscience, make that recommendation. I talked to my

closest colleagues and my wife, and then I made that decision. I sought

to ring Boris that morning. I spoke to one of his colleagues and

explained my decision. But the clock was ticking and a decision had to be

made before noon. The question I faced was a basic one. Of course

people were going to criticise me for not following through. But

ultimately, throughout my political life I have asked myself one

question. What is right for this country? If there is a personal cost

to me, I will bear it. You are running for Prime Minister,

there isn't a personal cost, and some people say it is stabbing him

in the back. There is one other thing. I withdrew my support for

Boris. Boris could have chosen to go on if he wished to. The fact he

didn't I think is telling. One thing I would say is that my judgment

about what is right for this country will always guide me. On that basis,

reluctantly and with a heavy heart because I enjoy working with Boris

during the referendum campaign, I think he has great talent and great

abilities but to be Prime Minister that you need to have grit and

executive authority, a sense of purpose and clarity. I hoped Boris

would show that but in the end it wasn't there. But you don't have

that either, you have said so yourself, as you know. I didn't want

to be in this position and if I had wanted to be leader, is myself

ambition was place and position, if I wanted the glory and the job, I

would have declared my candidacy last week when so many friends were

urging me to do so. But I put my own personal ambition to one side and

did what I thought was right for the country. Now I am entering this race

because I believe the next person who reads this country should be

someone who believes this country should be outside the European

Union, who also has the experience of driving through reform and as

well as that executive experience will be someone that everyone

recognises is acting not from any personal motivation but acting from

principle. You brought down David Cameron, then you brought down Boris

Johnson. Some people are saying you are political serial killer. I

didn't make the decision to call the referendum, that was David Cameron's

position. He chose the timing and the basis. I have enormous respect

for him but if you put friendship and personal relations before what

is right when you are a politician, you are not serving your country.

You have to serve your country by doing what is right. I believed

Britain would be better off outside the European Union and the majority

of people in this country voted for that course. Ultimately will what

matters is not the state of personal relations in Westminster, what

matters is that the country has leadership from someone who argued

and believed we should leave the European Union. Who is not

interested in personal games... What happened last week was a kind of

personal gain to end all personal games, a political assassination of

Boris's political career, where you set humiliating things about him in

front of the British people and destroyed him in front of all of us.

If there was any brutal knife work, that was it, surely. I made it clear

I didn't think Boris Johnson should be Prime Minister having worked

hard... How long has he been a friend for? Many years. 30 years?

During the referendum campaign I believed he might be the person who

could become Prime Minister. And you didn't think before he couldn't make

it? During that period he was supported by the architect of the

Leave campaign and he did a good job. I wanted him to be Prime

Minister and I realised during those four days he was not the man and

this was not the time. You are a big fan of Game Of Thrones, is that

right? House Of Cards? You are frank Underwood, a lot of people are

saying. If you turn to that camera and say something sinister it would

be perfect. There are all sorts of people who would say disobliging

things about me, I don't mind that because I would rather people said,

this is a man who sticks to his principles, rather than this is a

man who was worried about popularity and words are uttered in newspapers

or on television programmes. Another close friend of yours for the time

being as George Osborne, I think you are going on holiday and so forth,

he remains close. Let me read you again what he said this week. I

think we are in a prolonged period of economic adjustment for the UK,

adjusting to life outside of the EU and it will not be as economically

rosy as life inside the EU. It is very clear the country will be

poorer as a result of what's happening to the economy. Then he

talked about spending cuts and so forth. Do you agree with him? I

didn't spent last weekend with George Osborne, I spent last weekend

trying to make sure Boris Johnson could become leader of the

Conservative Party, absolutely unsuccessfully. On the question of

the economy, I outlined on Friday are plan for how we could take

advantage of this new departure. The British people voted for change, not

for business as usual. They want to make sure we grasp the opportunities

leaving the European Union can give us. New opportunities to trade with

countries like Australia and New Zealand who have already been on the

telephone demanding to get new arrangements. The referendum

revealed that even though our economy has been growing, not

everyone has been benefiting. There are two Britains. There is one that

has done nicely out of our economic arrangements, and Ron has been left

behind. My candidacy is specifically designed to focus attention on

working people on average and below average incomes who have been let

down consistently in the past and who voted in such numbers for a

change. It is a radical change of direction as you said yourself. It

includes things like an attack on people at the top who have earned

money you don't feel they have really deserved in finances and so

forth, and you have said again this morning you cannot understand

politicians making airy promises that never become legislation. So

how will you crack down on people earning too much? I think there are

things we can do to change the way in which companies specifically pay

individuals for tasks that they perform badly. I am looking for a

specific policy proposal. We have a problem at the moment whereby

individuals, when they run companies which they have never created, they

are hired managers, they pay themselves as though they were Steve

Jobs when in fact they behave like David Brent. When they have failed

they get massive payoffs and guilt edged pensions. I will look at the

laws that govern how corporate pay is fixed and how corporate payoffs

are delivered in order to ensure we don't have a culture of payment for

failure. I outlined before the general election that the

Conservative Party needed to be warriors for the dispossessed. I

explained after the general election that we needed to tackle the scandal

of the undeserving rich. And you are going to get those numbers down, you

are going to tax or otherwise remove bonuses from people at the top? I'm

not going to use... It is not just words, you have got to have a

proposal. I launched my leadership bid on by day and describe some

specific problems we have in income inequality in our society. I have

spoken most about the scandal of inequality, and in office I have

delivered plans in order to make sure the poorest children and

victims of the criminal justice system were supported in a way they

haven't been before. If we go with you as a country, we will be taking

a gamble on your judgment. I put it to you that your pass judgment has

not always been perfect. Here is you on the Northern Ireland peace

process. The Belfast agreement has at its heart and even greater

wickedness, it is a capitulation to violence, a validation of terrorism,

the moral stain of such a process will prove hard to be faced. It is a

humiliation of our army, and police, but were still a denial of our

international integrity. There are lots of people walking around today

that, if that peace agreement had not been concluded, would be dead,

and that was a horrendous error of judgment on your part. I am

certainly glad we now have peace in Northern Ireland but looking back I

think it could have been handled in a different way. You said

wickedness, moral stain, and you were wrong, were you not? There was

a problem with the Northern Ireland peace process, but we now have peace

in Northern Ireland, I'm delighted we do, but there were things we did

during the negotiations and the way in which we handled the IRA that I

would not have done. There were people who felt as I did,

discomfort. I will put it no more highly. There is certainly a moral

question about whether or not someone who had been engaged in

terrorism should be in office and I found that very difficult to take.

Since you have asked me, it is a serious matter, one of the reasons

is that I have clear principles and one of my principles is that I

believe in the integrity of our United Kingdom. I don't like the

idea we should be allowing our country to be influenced by a

terrorist campaign, and I believe that in standing up for the unity of

our kingdom and standing up against violence and intimidation, I am

standing up for the values that most people share. Would you use the

British Parliament to for bit Nicola Sturgeon from holding a second

independence referendum in Scotland? I don't believe there will be an

appetite for another referendum in Scotland. You said even after the

Iraq war was over that it would go down as one of the great British

policy successes in modern times, do you still believe that? We will have

the Chilcot inquiry in three days' time, there will be an opportunity

then to learn the lessons. Of course we need to be more modest when

intervening abroad, absolutely, but we also need to be resolute in the

face of terror. As the only leadership candidate that has laid

out a specific manifesto on how we deal with terrorism and how we deal

with extremism, I believe I have got the experience and insight. You must

have been preparing this before it happened. No. Final question, David

Cameron has published his tax returns, will you publish yours

before nominations close? Of course, yes. Thank you for that very crisp

answer. On Sunday morning live, Blockbuster

author Frederick Forsyth tells us about his life, his near escape from

death and his new-found calling as a poet with a special tribute to the

soldiers of the Somme. Hour we really the model of multi-phased

democracy that David Cameron thinks we are? And how high are your heels?

Are they worthy of the workplace or should you give these the boot?

Well, this weekend belongs to Wales and I've been joined

again by Lord Kinnock, and by James Dean Bradfield

James, tell not about this and some, is it a song you have been working

on for a while or was it specifically for the Welsh football?

Nicky in the band has been potentially writing the Welsh

qualifications on for a long time but it has been the first time we

have been able to carry through with it and finish it. The song is as

much about qualification as anything because it is the first time we have

qualified for any competition since 1958. Neil Kinnock, the wrong shaped

ball but apart from that wonderful moment. They are both the right

shaped ball, the only difference with rugby is the human instep has

been specially shaped by God to fit the rugby ball, but in football we

are... Wales as a footballing nation in any case. It is true you knew

James at school, is that right? The 74-year-old James! Neil's

constituency house was in my street so kind of like, yes... He and Nicky

in the competence of school, I got an excellent headteacher to

introduce an arts prize, and of course they all won it. OK, get

going. Get yourself set up. So you got an arts prize and they won it.

Yes, they were great, and they didn't win it for music, they won it

for art and poetry and God knows what so it was terrific. Do you

think Wales can go all the way this time? I have had this dream, I

remember John Charles being kicked out of the World Cup in Sweden by

the Hungarians, it was so badly injured he couldn't play. The story

of the game against Brazil might have been different but for all

those years we dreamt we have come close to the odd Wembley but never

made it. Now I am daring to dream. Neil Kinnock, thank you.

Thanks to all of my guests. The Sunday politics will be talking to

Liam Fox. I will have more next week, I have no idea who it will be

so join us then if you can. Now we have the Manic Street Preachers, and

their anthem, Stronger Together. # When Brazil would

make our hearts break # Chrissy Coleman, Gunter,

Chester # Hennessey,

Allen, King and Collins