17/07/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

Another Sunday and a new Prime Minister.

Theresa May has been setting out how she wants to tackle the burning

injustices in British society as we leave the EU.

But the message of the last few days, from Nice and from Turkey,

is that we can leave the structures but we can't leave Europe.

The sheer complexity of the daunting job facing this new cabinet

is really only becoming clear this weekend.

I'm joined today by the Cabinet Minister Justine Greening.

She's seen by Theresa May as one of the key faces

As the Tories begin to get their act together,

The two people trying to unseat Jeremy Corbyn -

Angela Eagle and Owen Smith - are here for the first ever

Theresa May's first visit as Prime Minister was to Scotland -

almost iconic image there of the new politics in action -

but what really happened after the handshakes,

Scotland's First Minister joins me later on.

Ralph Fiennes and director Rupert Goold will be telling me

about seizing the top job, but William Shakespeare-style.

And from that torment I will free myself, or hew my way

Our review of the Sunday morning news today focuses of course

on the extraordinary events in Turkey and in France.

James Landale, the BBC's diplomatic correspondent,

joins us, as does Benedicte Paviot from France 24, and a woman

who knows rather a lot about Tory leaders, past and present,

Plus we've got some stripped back roots music from Applewood Road.

# Trying to find a way back home.

But first the news, with Tina Daheley.

In Turkey, thousands of people have been taking part in pro-government

rallies, less than 24 hours after the country's leader

Turkey is still on high alert but the government

Meanwhile, international flights have resumed and the UK foreign

office says that the situation in the country is improving.

There was a mood of celebration as huge crowds took to the streets,

to mark the defeat of the military coup.

Turkey's our country, not the enemy's.

Erdogan is my leader and I support him.

President Erdogan is now using the coup to purge

Nearly 3,000 judges have been sacked.

And he has called on the US to immediately extradite the man

he believes was behind the coup, Fethullah Gulen.

He is the former political friend, now turned enemy, who wants

to see Turkey returned to its secular roots.

From his home in Pennsylvania, Gulen denied any involvement.

This was the scene in one of Turkey's most popular resorts,

Marmaris, the night before last, as coup plotters tried

to find the whereabouts of President Erdogan,

but the Foreign Office says the coastal resorts

are now much calmer, though tourists

There is still some disruption on services to Ankara and Istanbul,

but most tourist flights to the south coast resorts

Erdogan. The French government has called

on twelve to boost security after Thursday's

attack in Nice in which 84 people The Interior Minister said close

to 100,000 security personnel were already on duty

across the country. The MP Owen Smith, will formally

launch his Labour leadership campaign today with a warning

that the party is at risk A pledge to invest ?200 billion

on infrastructure will be Owen Smith is joining his former

shadow cabinet colleague, Angela Eagle, in challenging

Jeremy Corbyn. Theresa May has said it's very

encouraging that Australia is seeking a free trade

agreement with Britain. The Prime Minister said her

Australian counterpart, Malcolm Turnbull, had expressed

enthusiasm for a deal However, the UK can't sign any deals

while it is still The search for three men killed

in the Didcot power station collapse is to resume after the remainder

of the building was demolished Four men died when the plant

partially collapsed in February. So far only one body

has been recovered. big front page there in the Sunday

Times, Turks crush coup and a similar front-page on the Sunday

Telegraph, revenge on the coup plot evers, what life holds for the

wretched soldier, I dread to think. The Mail on Sunday there with a

domestic story, they have been talking to David Davis saying we

will send the migrant surge back, that is EU citizens who try to come

to Britain before the Brexit cut off line, an interesting interview. It

wasn't long ago you may recall we were talking about Turkey joining

the EU very soon, I think this makes it much less likely, doesn't it

James. Yes, the extraordinary thing so much

news this week they have had to come press a lot and had focus on Turkey,

the Mail on Sunday takes us through the events in a nice picture

montage, what is interesting though, is they focus on what happens next

and the great fear... The coup is over, it has been crushed? Yes, I

think there are some reports there might be an army base, where some

are holding out like Japanese in the jungles after the Second World War.

What does President Erdogan do now? The great fear among many

politicians and diplomats is this sense that he will use this as an

opportunity to centralise power, to concentrate more... Down on the

media? There is an extraordinary quote here in the Mail they found

from President Erdogan, he said democracy is like a tram, you ride

it until you arrive at your destination and then you step off.

You step off democracy? The great fear is all the Governments, they

are been saying we are in support of, the democratic process, the fear

is that Turkey becomes less democratic as a result of what has

happened. You have the front-page of the Sunday Telegraph gives a good

read through. What they do, they broaden it out, they emphasise that

the impact Turkey has on the rest of the world. Not just the Middle East,

but on ourself, pointing out for example the impact this could have

on the migrant deal, Turkey is the fulcrum of so much. If Turkey starts

to fall apart and there is an Islamist up rising, of some kind, if

they start to fight each other, then all of the west's policy falls apart

as well. The whole thing goes. As well as a key member of Nato, we

have this problem of not just the structure, what is happening in the

Middle Eastings but the alliance we are part of. What do we think of a

fellow member of Nato, whose military stage a coup in this is not

what Nato is supposed to be about? Turkey has been a member of Nato for

a long time. And... It has had lots of coup, there is a tension between

the Islamist part of Turkey and the secular part, the military represent

the secular part, when hen they feel threatened, this is what they do.

There is precedent to this, but in the past, they have been successful.

Not this time. The worrying thing about execution, I gather there are

calls in Turkey at the moment to execute. What will happen to the

eight men who landed, they have said it was it was a Mayday situation,

they landed in a helicopter, they are low down apparently in the army,

but they landed in Greece. It will be interesting to see what Greece

does about that. The other thing is normally to appear for a President,

on face tame would be the kiss of death. -- FaceTime. It is thanks to

the internet, which President Erdogan has clamped down on so much,

ironically helped to galvanise him to be able to make this call for

people to go out into the streets. You are right. This was the first

social media coup, where in the old days you had to take over the

Presidential Palace. And the radio station and TV station He used it to

get back. He sent a text message to every single Turkish mobile phone

expressing his side of the argument. This is extraordinary use. They

started killing soldiers. And civilians. I want to move on the

France in a second, before we do, James, we haven't heard a lot from

Boris Johnson, he put out a short statement, early day as well but

give us a sense as diplomatic editor of the task facing him. It is a huge

task. I have been looking at his Twitterfeed and it is Boris Johnson

saying I am doing the job, I have spoken to the French Foreign

Minister about Nice, I met the chief minister of Gibraltar, here is a

picture of me in the crisis centre. Dealing with the, this is him, as

him, dealing with the Turkey crisis. It, them that sizes that the point,

that Boris Johnson's appointment really matter, everybody has been

saying he is not in charge of Brexit, he is just there to fly the

flag. OK, but he is now the man who will be sitting in the room, with

Sergei Lavrov, from John Kerry, he is the guy who will have to

negotiate the deals with Turkey over Syria, Libya, all of these issues

which are going to pile up, and he is the guy there, so I think, there

is a huge learning... Writing his book. He said he got half ale

million quid for that. When John Major became Foreign Secretary, he

has three week, that is not a luxury Boris Johnson has. Amanda, give your

preview? It was inspired. If he hadn't been stabbed in the back

Boris would have been with Teresa to go before the grass roots and I

think he would have won. He is so popular with Tory, that get him out

of the country, don't let him be round. Keep him on plane, get him

out and doing photo opportunities and you know, and I think he is a

great face for Britain. I mean, despite all of these gaffes and the

ridiculous things he has said. He is a recoverer. He is. It is a great

opportunity for him, but, it will be interesting to see how he discharges

that here and abroad. Benedicte, let us turn to the aftermath of the

hideous Nice carnage, this is becoming political in France. It is,

the significant thing to say is that is unlike what happened after the

13th November attacks. And the Bataclan murder. Sorry to break in,

reporters said in Paris after that, the mood was one of sadness,

solidarity, dignity, whereas in Nice the mood is of anger. It is a

different situation, the reality is we live in open democracy, it was a

soft target. 30,000 people on that Promenade des Anglais, no-one not

only to France and loved by trans but by millions of tourists, you

can't put a policeman behind every person. But, there is disquiet

because the former mayor of Nice, who is now the President of the

region, he, hours after this happened, was making very strong

criticism of French President, the French authorities and asking for

the resignation, nothing less of the Interior Minister, was Theresa May's

counterpart. So in the Sun, on Sunday, you have the just 50 cops

were on duty when the city was targeted in the Bastille Day terror

attack. This is what he was claiming, so there is disquiet. What

we also need to point out is that, the Provence and the southern region

is a stronghold for the National Front, the Front National of Marine

Le Pen, has scored well. And a cauldron of Islamist extremism: At

least 100 people have gone to Syria. The calls to from the internet, we

can't underline the role enough, is they are being told don't bother

going out, just stay home, use this 19.5 tonne lorry. It is not proven

that this was a terrorist attack. This is even more worrying because

it's a new kind of terrorism, where you know, you are encouraged to stay

at home, basically and it appeals to possibly unhinged people, who then

claim, are claimed by the Islamic State organisation. This dangerous

loon was one of their soldiers. So they claim. This is the danger. And

this actively then divides people, worries people, and clearly, there

is grief, but there is also, you are right, anger as what can be done to

prevent this. Let us move to domestic politics and there is a lot

of big long reads about the week in politics which are worth savouring

this week. You will be pleased people can read that. I will focus

on this cartoon in the Sunday Times. It is Theresa May, she is Bastille

lady not The Iron lady. Wielding this massively bloodstained axe, you

can pick out the heads of Michael Gove and George Osborne. I am told

it only took her a minute to sack him. With Michael Gove she said,

backbenchers, learn the meaning of loyalty and come back again. There

is a serious question, is has she been too bloody and too brutal too

quickly? There is thatting issing. She has sacked more people than she

has a working majority, but you know, there is a kind of excitement,

you know, from inside the Tories now now, I can speak partially as I am

one, there is a real excitement she is tougher than anyone thought she

was going to be, this is a woman who David Cameron would say she is not

clubbable. Well what she has proved is she is not part of their club and

she is getting rid of the people who are.

James, do you think she has been too brutal? She has raised the bar, she

has promised Brexit will be Brexit, so the Brexiteers will hold her to

account. Equally her promise of acting from one nation values will

be treated by the Cameroon as, if you are going to carry on a

revolution, we will hold you to account. Whether she has sacked too

many of them, ultimately the judgment she has made is I've got to

have my own people, these people will be disgruntled anyway whether

they are in Government or not. The polls reveal today things like 55%

of people think she will be great in a crisis. Gordon Brown had those

kind of numbers in 2007. Only one in ten would go to the pub with her. In

terms of policies, I think the most interesting thing picked up by the

Sunday Express, is the possibility of return to grammar schools. We

know as a former comprehensive girl herself she has always had a soft

spot for this. A lot of the backbenchers, Graham Brady, all of

these sorts of people, they would love this policy and there is

already room to it inherent constituency. It would not surprise

me one bit, and the Tories would love it. Justine Greening has done a

story in the Sunday Times that hints she is interested in the idea. She

says, I don't want to set any hares running. Is this British political

crisis still playing big in France? Huge, there is fascination at the

brutality of the politics, the swiftness in transition, there's

fascination with Theresa May. There will be close attention paid to the

way she was so ruthless. You have this in 1789 and we have carried on.

And it is quite extraordinary how being and reporting for hours and

hours, seeing David Cameron exit with his family, Saint Theresa May

sweeping in, and the only speech she gave in the end in the campaign on

the social justice side, there is some trepidation at how she is going

to want to go about Brexit. She talked very soft and it seemed

heartfelt, then suddenly comes down. Absolutely. We are almost out of

time, just one thought about the lack of coverage of the Labour

leadership. It is incredible, the Sunday Mirror have a two page

interview with Jeremy Corbyn and you have to get through six pages of

Michael Jackson first who has been decade for -- been dead for what...

A decade. The political weather

has been hot, sticky Political forecasters over

the last few weeks have got We are definitely having something

of a reshuffle after the average temperatures and the rain so far

this summer. Temperatures are going to be soaring over the next couple

of days, the heatwave is on the way with temperatures potentially

reaching 30 degrees by Tuesday. Today it is warm enough in the

sunshine but not everywhere seeing the sun. Rather drab across the

north-west of Scotland, outbreaks of rain continuing here. One or two

isolated showers breaking out across the far south but it will be

isolated. Warm enough here, 26 Celsius, elsewhere comfortable, 21,

22. It stays drab with the rain in the far north-west. Tonight it is a

dry night, a warm one and it will be hard to sleep with some towns at 16,

17 degrees. The patchy rain will continue to linger across north-west

Scotland, but elsewhere it is all about sunshine and temperatures

soaring, 29 is possible, and we can go even higher than that as

temperatures continue to rise. The hot air coming up from France,

meaning southern areas could reach 32 Celsius by the time we get to

Tuesday. The two candidates challenging

Jeremy Corbyn for the Labour leadership face their colleagues

in a parliamentary hustings tomorrow, as nominations

for the contest officially open. I'll be quizzing both of them

in turn, and a little later they'll I'll be talking to Owen Smith

in a moment, but first I'm joined Welcome. So far hustings, sounds

great. Your Prime Minister, one of the things that might well happen is

Nicola Sturgeon says she wants a second referendum on Scottish

independence, as Prime Minister you could block that legally, would you?

London voted to remain and we are in a situation where we are leaving.

Liverpool and Merseyside voted to remain so I think it is important we

get... We need to get the terms of leaving right and we have got to

have all-party agreement on that, it is an important part of where we are

now. Let's see where we are when we got those terms of reference. If

Nicola Sturgeon wants there to be a second referendum and thinks she can

win it, she has succumbed to the Prime Minister and get permission,

my question is would you stop that from happening? I don't think she

will because there isn't a majority in Scotland at the moment. We have

got to concentrate on getting the terms that we will negotiate leaving

right and that's the immediate thing we have to do. July 2015, the

welfare bill comes to the House of Commons and you abstain on a bill

which reduces the cap for families and gets rid of child tax benefits.

Why do you abstain on that? To see if we could actually get some

changes during the passage of the bill through Parliament, we all

voted against at third reading, that's a perfectly normal

Parliamentary process. Jeremy Corbyn voted against it. That's what he has

done all his life. We all voted against it at third reading, we were

seeing if we could get some change and we have been successful in

getting change to other welfare bills. Again you have been under

criticism for your Iraq vote and you have explained that under the sense

it is probably history, but you have also voted three times against there

being an inquiry into the Iraq war. We have now had the Chilcot inquiry

and everyone can learn lessons from that. Why were against that? I

wasn't against the Chilcot report but there were still troops in Iraq.

You have an inquiry into something like that when the action is over

and your troops are not in danger. We need to learn the lessons of the

Chilcot report going forwards to make sure mistakes that were made

over Iraq are never made if we have to contemplate putting our troops

into danger again. Particularly organising aftermath properly. So it

was a question of timing. Again there was the vote to go into Libya,

and you were in favour of that military action. When you think

about it, it was a smaller event in a way but we had Iraq as an example,

then did the same thing in Libya with the same result, we removed a

tyrant and produced chaos. Isis have moved in. Looking back, do you wish

you opposed that as Jeremy Corbyn dead at the time? I don't think

Libya was the same as Iraq, you have to be part of international

coalitions to make sure you have a certain rule of law in the world. So

no regrets about that? We went in and made things worse. There are no

easy answers but we are part of an international community, part of the

Nato alliance, we have to do what we can to make certain we help the

world lived by international rules and human decency. You have had some

very unpleasant things said about you and some threats, a brick

through the window, Jeremy Corbyn has also had death threats but yours

have come particularly from the hard left of the party and some people

think they come from this group, Momentum. If you are a leader would

you make joint membership of the Labour Party and Momentum in

possible. I think we need to engage people and listen to our members,

but what has been happening recently isn't the kind of gentle politics

that we were promised. We have to stamp it out, it has no place in our

political discussions. We have got to keep it comradely which is why I

launched that hashtag and we will be having discussions in the next few

months to keep it comradely. You wouldn't crack down on Momentum...

Exactly, I think we need to welcome the involvement of people in

politics, that's a good thing. Some people see Momentum as a back door

through which an artists, Trotskyists can come the Labour

Party. There were some people who were thrown out in the 1990s who

have come back into the party, some are behaving in the way we would

expect. We have to make sure our Labour Party membership is not

compromised by that's, but it is not about Momentum. You have said Jeremy

Corbyn has lost the support of MPs and therefore should go, if you lose

a vote of confidence in your constituency party, will you stand

down? Constituency parties have been suspended for this entire election,

there are no official meetings going on. Owen Smith, you have made a lot

of your membership in the past of CMD, how will you vote on Trident? I

believe the world has got more volatile, I want a world without

nuclear weapons altogether but I don't believe we haste that... When

did you decide that? About 15 years ago, a long time ago I realised we

needed to retain it. The nuclear deterrent only works of course if

the Prime Minister of the day is prepared to press the button and

annihilate millions of people. As Prime Minister would you press the

button in certain circumstances? You have got to be prepared to say yes

to that. It was a mistake of Jeremy to say that. I understand it is a

terrible thought... He has a principal objection to nuclear

weapons, you don't. That's not true, I don't want nuclear weapons. You

are going to vote for Trident! But you don't want nuclear weapons, I

don't understand. I want all nuclear weapons across the world to be got

rid of, I don't think that makes it more likely by unilaterally

disarming ourselves. I think the world has become more volatile so we

have got to stick with what we have got if that's the advice of the

security services. He says in today's papers that you lead the

crusade against tax credits, the battle against the welfare bill, but

when it came to the welfare bill, you abstained, why? It was a mistake

and I regret it. I argued we shouldn't be abstaining on it and I

was part of Andy Burnham's campaign, telling Andy he should be resigning

on the issue. The truth this it was a mistake, I'm pleased that I did

then lead the campaign and change our position. We opposed the welfare

bill out right, line by line, I led the campaign on tax credits. We

succeeded on getting tax credit reversals overturned, as we

succeeded under my leadership on getting the PIP cuts back to

disabled people. You say you are a man on the left, a left-wing

candidate, would you raise taxes on the people at the top of society? I

think we need to completely overhaul our tax system, so yes. The reality

is one of the things we have been far too timid about in the Labour

Party for a long time is our taxation system. It isn't

progressive. So higher income tax for the rich? I would go back to the

50p rate tomorrow but there are other elements of taxation, why are

capital gains being taxed at 20%? It doesn't seem to be progressive, it

is not Labour to have that tax system, I would want to get into

that and the benefits system. Angela Eagle was talking about Article 50,

if you became Labour leader and Article 50 had not been triggered by

the time of the next election, both possible things, would you go into

that election saying, as the Labour Party we will not trigger Article

50, in other words we will not leave the EU? That would open the Labour

Party out of the 16 million people who voted to remain? I would like to

be able to say that because I'm proud European and I think we are

better off in the heart of Europe. Think it will depend on what we have

seen as being the outcome of these Brexit negotiations. In my view

people voted with good face on either side, let me finish, but I

don't think many people in this country knew precisely what the

outcome would be. We now have a period to look at it, determine

whether it is what we want. I'm asking something slightly different

because we only get the outcome of the negotiations after we have

triggered Article 50. If Article 50 is delayed until after a general

election, if Theresa May says, I'm going to go for a general election

and Owen Smith is the leader of the Labour Party, you could go into it

saying, if you elect me I will not trigger Article 50 and therefore

there won't be those negotiations. I say again... I am tempted to ask

you further, it is very tempting, would you do it? I don't think it's

a binary choice. It is. No it isn't. The reality is we don't know what

the terms are going to look like. If it is next month and it will be very

difficult for the Labour Party, after people have voted, that is my

point. We need to come to some idea of what we are getting. I wouldn't

go out an buy a car without checking it had an engine. We need to check

what we are going to see. Labour under you would go into the

negotiations as the Tories are now, after an election, you wouldn't try

the and do anything dramatic? No, we need to negotiate right now, I don't

think we should accept we are on a definite path out. We need to make

sure that people are satisfied with that. We trusted people rightly to

take the decision, we can trust them again, in 18 months' time, to check

whether it is what they wanted. All right. Thank. Now

Speaking of leadrship struggles, Ralph Fiennes is performing that

most ambitious of Shakespeare's kings, Richard III

His version of the great villain, as directed by Rupert Goold,

The production opens with a clever restaging of the moment

King Richard's deformed skeleton was removed from under a car

When I spoke to the actor and his director, Ralph Fiennes

told me what he thought was the key to Richard's character.

Why, I can smile, and murder whiles I smile, I can add

colours to the chameleon, Change shapes with Proteus

for advantages, And set the murderous Machiavel to school.

Can I do this, and cannot get a crown?

Tut, were it further off, I'll pluck it down.

I think the key to him is the first famous soliloquy now is the winter

of our discontent, in which first up he unpacks exactly how

he feels about himself, about the peace that has just been

But he's very articulate about his deformity and how he feels

despised, he despises himself, he's not the great lover

So very quickly, within the space of 20 lines, he's incredibly direct

Of course a lot of Richard is defined by his relationship

with the audience, he's very particular.

And the play is, without giving it away, folks, one slaughter

And you have studied the back wall of this rather delightfully small

and intimate theatre with a series of skulls, Rupert, tell us

I think when I was working with Hildegard Bechtler,

the designer, we were looking at references and looking at the way

people memorialise the dead but also we looked at the Khmer Rouge

and the Killing Fields exhibits of skulls and how the skull...

obviously Shakespeare picks it up most famously in Hamlet,

but its potent both with death and ingenuity.

So we are sort of trying to create, I guess, an installation of the

So this is a play about a king who finds himself,

in Shakespeare's time, absolutely on the wrong

Do you think it's a play that has relevance today in terms of how

Yes, it resonates outside our country with other regimes

where we see, you know, we've seen it in South American

states in the last 30, 40 years, and I don't

think it's gone away, the desire for certain people

to come forward and really take power in a really ruthless way.

The other thing I think is really modern about it in the way

he speaks to the audience, the character is almost bigger

than the story, and he speaks in a way that says, "listen,

I know things are normally done this way but I'm going to do them

differently," and I think that speaks to our politics now.

We have these figures like Trump and Corbyn and Bernie Sanders

and Boris Johnson, who are able, through the charisma of personality,

to be able to speak outside the normal political discourse,

I know this is the game and I'm not going to play it.

Exactly, and we respect you more for that.

There's a great moment, a strange moment in the play,

where finally Richard gets his hands on the crown and he doesn't put it

on his head, he lays it to one side - why?

He's uncomfortable with the weight of the robe and all this gear

I think it is a matter of life that you spend all your life craving

something, and when you get it then maybe it feels oddly hollow

what seems to happen in our version of the coronation is the effort

of climbing up steps with the orb and sceptre and robes is sort

of physically exhausting for him, so I suppose it's like a sort of...

Get rid of, like when you've been out for an evening

with a high collar and tie and you want to just...

I suppose also maybe the weight of history.

You walk up the stairway in Downing Street and you see

Are you the right person to be wearing the crown?

That's what I always feel when I watch you do it,

Ralph, it's a great privilege to have you here, doing

You're combining your stage work with a lot of films and I notice

recently from The Budapest Hotel to Hail Caesar!

to A Bigger Splash, you are doing more comic characters

Are you kind of dancing between serious stuff or tragedy

on the stage and comedy on film, or is that just coincidence?

It's just the way the dominoes have fallen, I think, that it

I did Grand Budapest Hotel, Wes Anderson's film,

which was clearly a comedy, followed by a Coen brothers cameo,

The Bigger Splash was less overtly a comedy but it has a humour.

It has some very funny moments, some very filthy moments but some

Almost everybody gets their kit off at one point in the film.

You have also taken a big role in Bond films, of course recently.

Do you think it's time for a black Bond or a female bond,

or do you think it's a brand that doesn't need

Well, I think it would be great if it was open

It would be good to put the cat among the pigeons,

but I mean primarily you want to believe that

all the essential Bond elements of wit, physical courage,

savoir-faire, I think there are certain givens that

But I think it should be a completely open discussion.

And if you can't get tickets to that production, fear not!

On Thursday 21st July you can see Richard III as part

of Almeida Theatre Live in cinemas across the country.

Here's an image of the new politics in action.

Two leaders, two women, meeting in Edinburgh to talk

So, did Theresa May bring anything to make Nicola Sturgeon less keen

on an early referendum on Scottish independence?

From the inside, did it feel different this meeting? It is a very

cordial and constructive meeting. I am not going to, I think grab any

headline, when I say that Theresa May and I have got very deep

fundamental political differences, I think we are at opposite ends of the

political spectrum, but if I can be more positive than that, we are

women, I think who do business in a not dissimilar way, so that I think

opened the way to a constructive discussion, it was very much a

getting to know each other meeting, and there are big issues that lie

ahead, there are big challenges for the whole UK and within that big

challenges for Scotland. I guess at the core she wants Scotland to stay

inside the British union, wow want it to stay inside the European

Union, is there any short-term room for negotiation in that? In other

words one side the European Union, is there any short-term room for

negotiation in that? In other words one of your MPs suggested "That it

would be possible that you can find a solution where by Scotland remains

in the EU, within the UK, there are ways you can do that, and my

question is, really? Well, my position is there might be, we are

in uncharted territory, when you are in uncharted territory with blank

sheet of paper you an opportunity to try to think things that might

previously been unthinkable and shape the future, there are

opportunity, the positive outcome of the meeting I had with the Prime

Minister on Friday, was that she said she was prepared to listen to

options that the Scottish Government would bring forward, to give effect

to how Scotland voted and we will certainly bring forward option, I

had the first meeting with the group of experts have appointed to assist

the Scottish expert to assist this task, let us see what we progress we

the make. I have never said this can be easy. Let me take a step back.

Story to stop you there, to be clear, it is possible, in your view

that Scotland could stay inside the EU while England and Wales Brexited

out. I don't think that should be ruled out at this early stage, we

don't know yet what relationship with the EU the UK is going to be

seeking to achieve, which in itself is incredible. But if I can take a

step back from there and try to get away for a moment from abstract

principles important though they are, Brexit will be deeply damaging

for on, for investment, for business, for university, some of

the damage is starting to be felt. It will be damaging to our rights as

citizen, rights to travel, workers right, Scotland didn't vote for

those consequence, we voted by a significant margin to adestroy them

to stay in. It is important, that gives me a mandate to see seek to

protect that relationship. That is what I will try to do. If it is not

possible to do that I have been clear that the option of a second

independence referendum is one that has to be on the table. Absolutely.

You grabbing that mandate, you shot off to Brussels like a grey hound

out of the trap. You arrived there very fast. I had always thought

somehow it would be difficult for Scotland to either stay in the EU,

or rejoin the EU before an independence round and the UK

leaving the EU. Because of the Spanish problem. You had

conversation, do you think there is a mood inside the EU, to as it were

put aside some of its own rules and act politically to keep Scotland

inside? I do think that mood is there. What I encountered in

Brussels was a warmth, an opness, a great sympathy to the position that

Scotland finds itself in. Nobody was saying to me, and I wasn't assuming

that all of this would be easy and there are not significant challenges

along the way, I certainly found an openness that to be frank about it

the Scottish Government has not found previously, in Brussels, and

certain I didn't encounter in the 2014 referendum. Things have changed

fundamentally end my job is to do whatever I need to do, to protect

these vital interests of Scotland, that I think are at stake. Last

question, Theresa May said after your meeting, that she wouldn't want

to trigger Article 50 until after parts of the UK felt comfortable

with that, which includes you and Scotland. Does that mean that in

some sense, you have a veto now over when Article 50 will be triggered,

until you are comfortable, the negotiations don't start? Well, that

certainly appear to be an interpretation some put on the Prime

Minister's remarks after the meeting, and you know, certainly

from what she said, after the meeting, I think that puts Scotland

in a very very strong position, and it puts me in a strong position, of

course it puts a responsibility on my shoulders to think through what

the option are, we have started that working, to see if we can bring

forward option, that square this circle. You think you have some

possibly some veto in your back pocket, should it only do that We

are in a strong position, that is a position I am going to use as well

as I can, and of course, we are also in a position, I heard Angela Eagle

at the start say Scotland has got to accept the UK-wide vote in the same

way that London or Liverpool accepted it. Can I point out to

Angela Eagle there is a difference between Scotland and Liverpool and

London. Scotland is not a region of the UK, Scotland is a nation. If we

cannot protect our interests within a UK that is going to be changing,

that right of Scotland to consider the option of independence, always

has to be there. That in itself will bring challenges and decisions we

have to make, that is an option we have to have, if that is what it

takes to protect our position. Thank you very much for talking to

us today. After a brutal purge

of Cameron's Tory modernisers, One of the top jobs went

to Justine Greening, who becomes the first

Education Secretary to have attended Does it really teal different in

cabinet, in terms of culture and so fort? I think it does in many

respects. I am proud there are so many state school educated people

sat round the Cabinet table, it is full of people who campaigned for

staying in the EU, but also critically leaving the EU. It is

from all regions of our country, so I think it is a balanced cabinet,

and I hope that we can really deliver this agenda that Theresa May

has set out for Britain. Let us get on to that agenda, in her speech, it

was very interesting and, she said if you are a white, working class

boy, you are less likely than anybody else in Britain to go to

university, and she made social mobility central to her purpose. And

as Education Secretary, you are for England at any rate in charge of

social mobility. So can I see if there, any policies behind these

warm words, could we start with schools in England, because

according to the IFS, as things stand, per pupil spending it is

going to go down in real terms by 8%, by the end of this Parliament.

We have a new financial regime here, we are no longer going to try and go

into spur plus, austerity is being loosened a bit. Do you go back to

colleagues and say, an 8% cut for pupils in English schools is the

wrong thing for social mobility. social mobility is something that

has characterised my personal life as well as my political life. It is

something I care about... I would like to stick to policies if we

could. Let me come back to your question, but I want to say this is

so much more than just about the money. Driving opportunities, making

the most of Britain's talent isn't just the right thing to do, it is

the smart thing to do for our economy and I'm delighted to be in a

department that can be at the heart of driving opportunities. Not only

are we looking after schools policy, we also have universities under our

wing too, but if we are going to deliver on a country that doesn't

just work for a privileged few, working for everyone... Let me

finish because this is important. It is more than just about education,

it is about what happens at home, in communities, and setting sights

high. It is about businesses pulling through Britain's rough diamonds and

making the best use of the tolerant, it is about having good teachers who

can develop that talent in the first place. These are warm words but you

are in charge of education, and of the regime will be less money per

pupil, that will impact upon lots of poorer families and people

struggling in school who don't have other kinds of support which is why

I ask again, would you seek to reverse that 8% cut? The underlying

school budgets is seeing a real terms increase, we are injured using

a new formula that will be much fairer than the last one. It is the

first cut per capita since the 1990s, the IFS says, and a lot of

headteachers are profoundly worried about it. We are reviewing and

introducing a new schools funding formula that will be much fairer and

make sure funding per pupil is now equalised in a way it hasn't been

for everybody. My point to you is driving better opportunities and

driving social mobility in our country is broader even than

education, broader even than something that can change overnight.

It is general -- generational challenge. But you are the Education

Secretary, which is why I'm sticking with education. There have been

suggestions in the paper today that grammar schools could be on the way

back and you are open-minded about this idea, is that true? This debate

has been going on for very long time. The setting which schools find

themselves in has changed dramatically, it has gone from a

binary world in many respects to being an educational world in which

there are many different schools with different offers. We need to be

open-minded but from my perspective and from my experience going through

a state school, the times I learned best were when I had great, amazing

teachers who could excite me about learning, gave me an interest in the

subject they were trying to teach me about, so fundamentally we need to

look at what is happening in the classroom, having children there who

are ready and able to learn, having fantastic teachers. That's what will

be most important and what I will focus on. There are a lot of your

colleagues on Tory backbenchers who are desperate to say, do you know

what, I think grammar schools were a good thing and I don't mind them

coming back. I have been in this job literally two or three days, I'm

going to take a very measured, sensible approach. I have a lot of

things in my in tray, I work over them carefully in the coming weeks.

But you are not closed minded to bringing back grammar schools? This

debate has been open for a long time but I also recognise the landscape

in which it takes place has changed fundamentally and we need to be able

to move this debate on and look at things as they are today, and maybe

step away from a more old-fashioned debate around grammar schools, and

work out where they fit in the landscape today. The biggest single

crisis facing you right now is in universities where people are

terrified about the loss of funding when we leave the EU. 125,000

European students in universities right now, many lecturers don't know

what the future holds for them, all the time they are being phoned up

from people in the state trying to cherry pick them, what reassurance

can you give them that they are welcome now, they will be funded and

the funding gap will be closed? We want to make sure the university

system stays world beating. I recognise there are these issues of

students and staff. As we set about pulling together our strategy for

Brexit, of course those need to be things we reflect on extremely

carefully. Britain isn't going to deliver the kind of opportunities

for young people if we don't have a thriving university sector so this

is clear, you are right to ask me about it. And again, I hope that

over the coming weeks we can have a smart approach to Brexit that means

we lock in that fantastic university system we have got. 16% of all

European funding for research and science currently goes to British

universities, if they lose that money, we will lose the departments

and jobs that keep us prosperous, otherwise they will be cherry picked

from elsewhere. Will you make sure that money which is coming from

Europe is replaced by the British government? I recognise all these

challenges, whatever path we have chosen on the 23rd of June, there

were going to be pros and cons, we now have a chance to work out our

game on Brexit. It also gives a chance to look at some of the risks

around leaving the EU and work out how we can make sure we mitigate

them effectively. You presumably have got to be part of that

negotiating team, you have to be in the thick of that. The Brexit

department needs to work across government. Of course there are

issues around universities. Every department overwhelmingly will be

affected by the decision to leave the EU, now we need to get on that

decision that people top, approach it in a smart way, make sure we also

get on with starting the process of putting in place international trade

deals, which is why the Department for International trade was set up.

It's about looking at how we change our relationship with Europe, and

building trade deals with the rest of the world. Thank you for joining

us this morning. Let's look at what's coming up after the

programme. On Sunday Morning Live: We ask,

do terrible events like Nice Paralympian Stef Reid tells us why

a near fatal accident became Hollywood star Jennifer Aniston says

she's fed up with women being defined by whether they have

children or not. Plus - is the new Shanghai system

of maths teaching As promised, the Marr

Labour hustings. Angela Eagle and Owen Smith are back

with me - together. Angela Eagle, can you tell Owen

Smith why you would be a better leader than he would be? I am from

northern working-class stock, my mother was a seamstress who didn't

get chance to go to university, I did because of Labour government and

that is why my whole political mission is to get working class kids

the right opportunities to shine and I think that's what I am in politics

for. Whenever I have been asked to step up to the plate, I have. I

wiped the floor with George Osborne at Prime Minister's Questions, I'm

an experienced government minister. Plenty of viewers will have noticed

you are not a working-class woman, but apart from that, why is she

wrong? She's not wrong, Angela would make a great leader of the Labour

Party, she has been a pioneer in our party for a long time and if Angela

with a leader, I would serve you with great humility and respect. I

think I could also be a good leader of this party. I think we are people

who share socialist views. I think maybe it is time to go for a new

generation of Labour leaders, men and women. Perhaps in the past we

have been too timid around some of the ideas we got in this country.

Personally I'm going to argue that austerity is right but we need a

plan for prosperity and that means specifics. ?200 billion investment

programme, big ideas for the challenges we face. We agree on

anti-austerity but I think it is time for a woman. And you gallantly

say that you are too old. I don't think I quite said that. Maybe it is

time for experience! Do you agree that one of you should be standing

against Jeremy Corbyn, not both? You need to decide between you which one

it is. I am preparing for the hustings, tomorrow, and I will be

putting ideas forward and seeing what happens. I think one of us

standing would be better to be honest, but the PLP has got to be a

grown-up organisation and decide who it is. So there is no kind of vote,

how do you decide between you who is more popular among Labour MPs? We

have nominations process, I think it is very clear. That is one way which

we could do it or we could make an agreement between ourselves but my

view is that whoever commands the largest degree of support in the PLP

is the unity candidate and should go forward and take Jeremy on. I think

we have to have the person who is most likely to beat Jeremy Corbyn

and I think that's me. So you are not standing aside in any

circumstances! We are not going to do a deal here. If Jeremy Corbyn

does win, would you each serve in his Cabinet or are going back to the

same situation we are in now? Jeremy has lost confidence with the

Parliamentary party. We may have an early general election, so let's do

the leadership election and let's see what happens. But people

watching do need to know that if they choose Jeremy Corbyn again as

their leader whether there will still be an abstention by the Shadow

Cabinet, no one is going to serve on the kind of thing. I'm not leaving

the Labour Party for Jeremy Corbyn or anyone else, but I will serve and

work with Jeremy if he wins because always we need to serve Labour.

Thank you, both, very much indeed. That's nearly all we have got time

for. Andrew Neil will be here in an hour

with the Sunday Politics, which includes an exclusive

interview with Labour Join me at the same time next

Sunday, when I'll be talking to one of Hollywood's great stars,

Matt Damon. For now, we leave you with music

from Nashville, Tennessee. Applewood Road are playing the

Barbican in London tonight, ahead They've come in specially

for us this morning. This is "Old Time

Country Song". # Like an old time country song

that's playing on the jukebox low # Picking out these songs unsung

and finding my way back to you # All my dreams are runaways

chasing after yesterday # It's what I know

like the back of my hand # All of the roads that we follow

are teaching us to find # They are greeting us

and lighting our way # Like an old time country song

that's playing on the jukebox low.