14/05/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


14/05/2017

Andrew's guests are first minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon, secretary of state for defence Sir Michael Fallon and shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry.


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Transcript


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If there's one thing that's dominated this

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it's the battle for the votes of the patriotic working classes -

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Labour promising fairer Robin Hood taxes and an ethical foreign policy,

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the Tories attacking Jeremy Corbyn for being soft on defence

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while offering those voters new council houses.

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Time, this morning, to probe a little closer.

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So, two radically different political personalities go head

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to head - Emily Thornberry, the Shadow Foreign Secretary who's

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attacked Theresa May for "fawning" over Donald Trump.

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And Sir Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary who's savaged

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Jeremny Corbyn as feeble and dangerous for Britain.

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But we're not limiting ourselves to London this morning.

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Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland's First Minister and leader of the SNP,

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is here in the studio talking about why independence,

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whatever the unionists say, is on the ballot in this election.

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Our news review this morning features the BBC journalist who's

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been following Nicola Sturgeon on the campaign trail -

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Observer star commentator Andrew Rawnsley.

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And from the Sun, pulling no punches, Jane Moore.

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An international effort is under way to track down the criminals behind

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the global cyber attack that wreaked havoc across the NHS on Friday.

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Hospitals, GP surgeries and ambulance services

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across England and Scotland were disrupted when their IT systems

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But experts fear that hackers may seek to exploit the chaos.

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The Conservatives say they'll join forces with councils and housing

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associations to build thousands of new homes for rent -

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However it's not clear how much money the Tories would invest -

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and Labour have dismissed the announcement as spin.

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Labour says that if it wins the general election it will impose

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a so-called Robin Hood tax on financial transactions

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They say the levy would raise ?26 billion

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over the next parliament for public services.

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The Conservatives said it was "madness" to target

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Portugal has won the Eurovision Song Contest for the first time

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The United Kingdom - represented by former

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X Factor contestant Lucie Jones - got its best

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result in six years after coming 15th.

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The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.

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The NHS story over many of the papers with the Mail on Sunday

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saying there were 66 alerts to the NHS but nothing was done before the

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cyber attacks and the Sunday Telegraph has the same story. Chaos

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hitting thousands of patients. The Sunday Times, Harry Styles is

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apparently against Brexit. Why we need to know this, I don't know.

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They splash on Theresa May's pledge on their council house revolution,

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they said. Lots of those who voted remain targeting MPs. And a

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millionaire Brexit donor targeting pro-remain MPs according to the

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Observer newspaper. The Sunday express, Theresa May to smash Maggie

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record, it says. Perhaps optimistically.

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Unless you have been locked in a cupboard, you will know the NHS has

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been the victim of a cyber attack, as have other organisations

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worldwide. It is called Eternal Blue, it sounds like a paint colour.

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Originally designed by DNS a in the States and possibly by our own

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spooks working with them. -- NSA. Microsoft had issued a warning in

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March. It is like all of us, you do not want to spend the money until

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you are burgled and then you secure your house. Charles Arthur, a

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technology writer, a good piece, taking the Mickey out of Amber Rudd,

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saying she was on the radio, saying patients were inconvenienced but no

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date had been accessed. He says unfortunately also the NHS staff

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cannot access data. He says Amber Rudd can burble on but the 1 billion

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put in is a fraction of the amount needed to upgrade the system. Should

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we spend more money to protect institutions against attacks? In

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this case it is much loved, the institution, the NHS but we have

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seen private companies have been as vulnerable and their customers have

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had as many problems. The difficulty for organisations is cybercrime by

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its nature is nimble. Money may be part of it and a lot of it may be

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keeping ahead of cybercriminals. This has been happening to private

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companies and charities for years but they have not like to admit it

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because it makes them look vulnerable. Which undermines public

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confidence. Now we know it has opened to the NHS it has opened a

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can of worms. In fairness to the trusts, if they said we will spend 5

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billion on a computer everyone will say the NHS cut operations. It might

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not take 5 billion. There is a hero in the story. Nobody knows his name.

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His online handle is MalwareTech. Within eight a few hours, he says,

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he was a way to to save the NHS computers and disable the malware.

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He said it only took him a couple of hours so maybe it is not 5 billion

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to upgrade. Teenagers. There is a ripple of expectation running

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through the country. We will turn to the election coverage. You have

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Craig Oliver. Interesting his byline is simple Craig Oliver, not Sir

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Craig Oliver. The knighthood he got from his mate David Cameron. He said

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it is all very well to say it is a shoo-in for Theresa May but if you

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don't think the manifesto matters you could not be more wrong. He said

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this week she will have to prove she is on the side of the people and

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what she said is not just "Windy rhetoric". He says Theresa May is

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the last one truly standing, will be master of all she surveys on June

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the 9th, but her manifesto could be the route map between being seen as

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a great Prime Minister, or it could be a bland document that put safety

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first. Andrew, two stories happening about what is really going on in the

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campaign and the Mail on Sunday has a poll by Michael Ashcroft which

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suggests a fast Tory landslide. Former Tory Treasury. The paper poll

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intensely when there is a campaign and we have the Mail on Sunday which

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says it is a shock mega- poll that reveals true scale of Labour

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collapse and putting the Prime Minister on track for a 172 seat

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landslide. Campaigners would regard this story as unhelpful because one

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of the worries in the conservative high command is giving the

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impression it is all over and Theresa May is steam-rollering to

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majority. Maybe it will encourage Labour supporters to turn up. If you

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look at the polling, Labour above 30%, better than sometimes Ed

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Miliband was doing. It is not clear Jeremy Corbyn on the campaign trail,

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not doing any harm at all. The Sunday Mirror says he is closing the

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gap. Even honest pollsters would probably say this candidly. Window

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they overestimated the vote last time. Have they overcorrected and

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underestimating the Labour vote? Have they not corrected enough,

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which will be alarming for Labour which would show they are doing even

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worse. We are not talking about the margin of error when you talk about

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Labour closing the lead to 18%. Sarah Smith, you have a story on the

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tablet. There are a Scottish election is going on and different

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manifestos in Scotland and possibly one of the big stars of the campaign

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is Ruth Davidson. She is hoping to lead a Tory revival into

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Westminster. They only have one seat in Westminster and have a target of

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reaching ten, 12 seats, which would be remarkable. The story here today

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is she will announce a U-turn on prescription charges when they

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launched the Scottish manifesto, which will be fascinating because

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the UK Tory policy is to charge for prescriptions. It was an SNP policy

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that in Scotland they are free and now the Conservatives are getting

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behind the idea of free prescriptions, probably because they

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are trying to eat into the Labour vote. The election in Scotland split

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between nationalists supporting independence, probably voting SNP

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and unionists on the other side and Tories hope to say, we are the party

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of the union, if you do not want a referendum, vote for us. Bringing

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voters with them on policies like this. Let's move away from the

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election to the Rachel Nickell murder. It was 25 years ago,

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astonishingly. Wimbledon Common. Her son, who was there at the time...

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Interesting about trauma and toddlers. He was not quite three.

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You wondered how much he remembers. He has written a

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book. His father took him to France so he did not become a media

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sensation. What I find interesting. He says I forgive my mother's

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killer. He had a rough upbringing and childhood. He was a

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schizophrenic. He has tried to commit suicide. I do not feel

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resentment. It is remarkable. Some foreign politics. Trump sacking the

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FBI boss and the extraordinary language he used. You are hereby

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terminated, he said. Absolutely amazing. This has been compares to

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Watergate as one of the great Washington scandal moments. An

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astonishing story that talks about how Donald Trump sees it and the way

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he can use his presidency and what is happening with the FBI and the

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investigation into Russian hacking of the election and the story the

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Sunday Times have is interesting saying the FBI chief James Comey who

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was sacked is planning to strike back. Giving interviews and possible

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testimony about why he was sacked. It was probably because of

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congressional testimony he gave in the first place that Trump sacked

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him. In the United States Congress get interested in doing

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investigations. The process takes over and you get endless

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investigations and people keep pulling at the threads until things

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unravel. That is a large part of Watergate. It was a year between the

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President sacking the special prosecutor and having to resign, in

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Watergate. Meanwhile, Trump issues a menacing warning that Comey better

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hope there are not tapes of conversations as if he has been

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taping what is going on so he can use it against his enemies. That

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does reek of Richard Nixon. What is interesting, you see Trump doing

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what he wants, sacking the FBI director when he feels like it. It

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is just the norm to do that, there is the constraint. Back to the story

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in the Sun newspaper. In this campaign we will have figures that

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might be dodgy from politicians and forecasters. For a lot of people

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they feel their economy, in the weekly shopping basket, the sun on

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Sunday headlines warning an unexpected price hike in the bagging

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area. Reporting supermarkets raising prices of own brand products. This

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might have something to do with the slide in the value of sterling since

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Britain voted to leave the European Union. Or, supermarkets being

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generally naughty. A warning that the price of foodstuffs is going up

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quite a lot. Now, fizzy water. On the very few

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occasions I drink something nonalcoholic, I go for fizzy water.

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No, apparently fizzy water makes you fat. I cannot understand that. It's

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a weird thing. It's because the carbonation makes you want to eat

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more, it stimulates your appetite. Stick to the wine in future. Some

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people are still enjoying breakfast so we will leave it there. Thank you

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very much indeed. So we've been talking a lot

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about Labour, and we're joined by the Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily

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Thornberry. Good morning, in a few weeks' time

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you could be Foreign Secretary, will you at that point tell Donald Trump

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is not welcome here for a state visit? No, because he's been

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invited. I think it was a mistake to invite him quite as quickly as he

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was invited. Frankly Obama had to wait for years, I think it would

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have been better to see him settle down. Jeremy Corbyn himself said he

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was not welcome in Britain. Yes, I mean, it takes these things in

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stages. I think we have to welcome the American president to Britain

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and work with him. The difference I have is I would be prepared to stand

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up to him, I would be prepared to say sorry Mr President, you are

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wrong about that. You are doing the wrong thing. So you would have over

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here and then give him a scolding, he may not want to come under those

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circumstances. There we are. I also hear he doesn't want to share

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transport with Prince Charles because he doesn't agree with him on

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climate change. We cannot disinvite him once he's been invited because

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that would be to the detriment of our country. Use at Labour would not

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turn a blind eye to human rights abuses in, for instance, China, what

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does that mean? We should not be afraid to raise these issues,

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despite the fact we may be going for a trade deal with a particular

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country but we have to be clear about the things we disagree on the

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country with. I am very worried that when I see Theresa May going to the

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Gulf states for example and desperately after trade deals and so

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on, she doesn't raise the issue of Yemen, she doesn't raise the fact

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Saudi Arabia has been bombing weddings and funerals. Is your

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ethical foreign policy sufficiently ethical that if you raise these

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issues and you get given a dusty response or hostile response, and

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you actually stop trade deals happening, he would go as far as to

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endanger the involvement of the Chinese for instance? I'm not saying

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we are going to boycott China for heaven 's sake but there is a

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middleweight, through the sort of fawning, frankly, which I think we

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have seen Theresa May indulging in in relation to Donald Trump and the

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way we would approach things. Let me turn to Trident because you don't

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like the Trump Administration and yet we rely on the administration

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for close cooperation to make our Trident submarines work in terms of

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targeting and so forth. Do you withdraw that corporation? The most

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important part of our defence is Nato and that's partnership we have

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with America and the rest of our Nato allies and we are committed to

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that and we should be. We have been committed to Nato for a number of

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years, and we need to work collectively with Nato. So Nato is a

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crucial part of our negotiations? Yes. I ask because Jeremy Corbyn

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recently spoke directly about Nato. We, in the radical end, the left and

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the unions of the Labour Party have got to be realistic Nato is a major

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problem and a major difficulty and we have to campaign against Nato's

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power, influence and global reach because it is a danger to world

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peace and a danger to world security. Severities, will you

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campaign against Nato's world power? I think that is a quote from six

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years ago. Jeremy has been on a journey, to coin a phrase, and there

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have been a number of discussions and it is quite clear that the

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predominance of opinion, and you know, within the Labour Party, we

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are committed to Nato. The reality is we have been relying on our

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partnership in Nato, the way we have been buying things and committing

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things, if we were to pull out of Nato forces would be... For example,

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how would we get our forces off Salisbury Plain at the moment

:20:20.:20:23.

without the assistance of Nato? We don't have enough frigates to move

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them on to the continent of Europe if necessary if the Russians came

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rolling over the hill. Have you made these points to Jeremy Corbyn? Yes,

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I have. So you put him back in his box? Because he repeated those

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statements during the judicial campaign. I am telling you that the

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Labour Party's position is a clear one, and I am Shadow Foreign

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Secretary. This is someone who will be Prime Minister if you win the

:20:57.:21:01.

election, and he is saying Labour should campaign against Nato. If you

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heard what he said at Chatham House he did not say this. He is clear we

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have a commitment to Nato and that is that. So you can unsay these kind

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of things? You can change your mind. Will a Labour government in Britain

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engage with military operations without the support of the UN ever?

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We don't think it is right for there to be interventions in other

:21:32.:21:35.

countries without it being done on a multi-natural basis. We do not think

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it is right for Theresa May to give unconditional support to Donald

:21:41.:21:44.

Trump in bombing Syria. We don't think he should be encouraged to

:21:45.:21:48.

think it is right for him to behave unilaterally. We think it undermines

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the security of the world and the best way for the international

:21:54.:21:58.

community to proceed is by way of agreement. It means the UN Security

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Council? Yes. So is it right to give countries like China and Russia veto

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over any possibility of us using military action ever? It is

:22:14.:22:19.

difficult. On Kosovo for example the Russians were vetoing the use of

:22:20.:22:24.

military force in relation to Kosovo but there was international

:22:25.:22:26.

agreement that there should be action there with the exception of

:22:27.:22:31.

the Russians, and there was developed out of the doctrine of

:22:32.:22:35.

responsibility to protect so it was legal at that point of the an

:22:36.:22:41.

intervention. Robin Cook led the charge on that and he voted for

:22:42.:22:48.

that. He was developing a responsibility to protect doctrine.

:22:49.:22:53.

And Jeremy Corbyn spoke against that, who was right? I think Robin

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was right. Looking forward, do you think the Labour government would

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send the task force against the Falklands if there was a crisis

:23:05.:23:12.

there? Yes. Again, Jeremy Corbyn has said he would like to negotiate with

:23:13.:23:16.

the Argentina government over the future of the Falklands and I wonder

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if you would like to be part of that negotiations? If British citizens

:23:22.:23:24.

are being attacked, we defend them but we don't want to get into a

:23:25.:23:31.

position like the Conservatives, who seem to be so gung ho, we will on

:23:32.:23:35.

this and do that, no, you have to look at the alternatives first. In

:23:36.:23:40.

the end there is no settlement of international disputes without there

:23:41.:23:43.

being international agreement. Its question of how you get there

:23:44.:23:49.

fastest. Do you think there was an available compromise over the

:23:50.:23:54.

Falklands to be done? Acting so long as the people of the Falklands

:23:55.:24:01.

wished to remain British, they will remain British. There needs to be a

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future in terms of talking to neighbours of the Falklands and I

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think it is to the economic advantage of both that they are able

:24:10.:24:12.

to work more closely than they are at the moment but certainly not

:24:13.:24:17.

under the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands. Again, "It seems

:24:18.:24:24.

to be ridiculous in the 21st century we get into conflict with the

:24:25.:24:30.

Falkland Islands... Lets bring about some sensible dialogue" Jeremy

:24:31.:24:34.

Corbyn says, so he's saying let's talk about the future of the

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Falkland Islands. I am quoting Jeremy Corbyn at you again and

:24:39.:24:44.

again. I don't see why I should disagree with that. You say this is

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what he says, and in fact he's saying something, I don't agree with

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you. Let's talk about the Robin Hood tax. Sadiq Khan, who is in charge of

:24:57.:25:00.

London, has called this madness and said if you continue with this

:25:01.:25:07.

countries will leave the UK and it's a really dangerous policy. Again, I

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don't think that is an exact quote. Madness is exact. At the moment we

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have a tax which applies when you buy stocks and shares, and at the

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moment some people who are called market-makers, if they buy these

:25:26.:25:30.

shares they don't pay the tax, I don't really understand why that is.

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Then the other thing is that we also think we should extend the tax to

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different types of instruments but such as derivatives because it is a

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kind of betting on the stock market and it will help stabilise the stock

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market. Many other countries want to do it. -- many other countries do

:25:50.:25:57.

it. Hillary Clinton wanted to do it if she was elected. Do you agree it

:25:58.:26:01.

should be done in coordination with other countries to avoid hedge fund

:26:02.:26:06.

managers moving to Paris or Dublin or wherever they want to move to?

:26:07.:26:13.

The House of Lords committee looked at any changes of behaviour and they

:26:14.:26:16.

said they didn't think it would be as drastic as some of the doomsayers

:26:17.:26:21.

say it will. In the end it is a question, I think, of tidying this

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tax up. It doesn't seem to be right that you can bet on a company's

:26:29.:26:32.

debts and not have to pay tax whereas if you want to invest in a

:26:33.:26:38.

company you have to pay tax. What you say to colleagues like Ben

:26:39.:26:42.

Bradshaw who are going round telling voters vote for me, that doesn't

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mean Labour government. There is a choice. We will either get a

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Conservative government or Labour government and that is the choice

:26:54.:26:57.

people have coming up in front of them. Our vision for Britain is an

:26:58.:27:02.

entirely different one to the Tories' and people need to accept

:27:03.:27:11.

that. You don't believe it is defeatist? We have another three

:27:12.:27:15.

weeks to go, everything is to play for. You can see the way in which on

:27:16.:27:20.

a day-to-day basis we are attracting more support. The things we came out

:27:21.:27:24.

with in the manifesto are enormously popular. We are giving the public

:27:25.:27:29.

answers to their problems. People need to look at what choice they

:27:30.:27:36.

have, not Theresa May's hair, not whether Jeremy Corbyn should shave,

:27:37.:27:40.

it's about which politicians can offer you what, what are the

:27:41.:27:44.

different futures Britain has and the Labour one is much more positive

:27:45.:27:48.

and in line with what the people want. It is also play Fox and I

:27:49.:27:52.

don't want to be defeatist. As to whether Jeremy Corbyn should shave,

:27:53.:27:58.

we can discuss that later because you will be joining us later on.

:27:59.:28:02.

Chaos and bluster all over the place.

:28:03.:28:07.

But, enough of that, it's time to go over to the weather

:28:08.:28:09.

The skyline behind me looks a little chaotic, and we will see some

:28:10.:28:16.

turbulence skies today with the showers, which are already turning

:28:17.:28:20.

thundery out west. This is the rain many in the east of work too, giving

:28:21.:28:25.

much-needed rain to the gardens, it is clearing out now and it's a

:28:26.:28:28.

lovely start of the day for many parts of the country. Much brighter

:28:29.:28:32.

skies across the east of Scotland, it will linger over the north of

:28:33.:28:36.

Scotland, but there will be a handful of heavy showers over the

:28:37.:28:40.

Grampian region, simile so with Northern Ireland, but equally

:28:41.:28:52.

lengthy spells of dry weather with strong sunshine in between. There

:28:53.:28:54.

will also be a scattering of showers across England and Wales, and the

:28:55.:28:57.

coast looks set to get the best of the sunshine. It will feel warm away

:28:58.:29:00.

from the showers which feel quite blustery at times. It will be chilly

:29:01.:29:03.

initially in eastern areas. More chaos as we head towards Monday

:29:04.:29:07.

morning, wind and rain to boot, and it is May. Some heavy rain across

:29:08.:29:14.

south-west Scotland, north-west England and Wales. Even rain further

:29:15.:29:18.

south and east. The consolation is it is mild so it is warm weather but

:29:19.:29:23.

the unsettled weather is due to search through midweek.

:29:24.:29:28.

Sir Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary,

:29:29.:29:30.

has been used by the Prime Minister as her faithful attack dog so far

:29:31.:29:33.

He is not, I think it's fair to say, a massive fan of Jeremy Corbyn,

:29:34.:29:38.

but, of course, he has lots of questions to answer about

:29:39.:29:40.

the state of Britain's Armed Forces under the Conservatives.

:29:41.:29:43.

Welcome. In 2015 the Conservatives made a solemn promise about the size

:29:44.:29:52.

of the Armed Forces, can you remind of the promise. We said we would

:29:53.:29:57.

build the army up to eight 2000 by 20 20. What is the size of the Armed

:29:58.:30:03.

Forces? It is just over 79,000. You have not kept the promise? We have

:30:04.:30:10.

not got there yet. We said we would build up forces, including reserves

:30:11.:30:15.

to just over 30,000. The quote was, we will maintain the size of the

:30:16.:30:19.

regular armed services and not reduce the army to below 82000 and

:30:20.:30:24.

the current figure is 79,000, so you have broken that promise. We said we

:30:25.:30:28.

would do it over the parliament and we are spending a lot of money. You

:30:29.:30:33.

have reduce the Army. Increasing the size of the Army up to 2020, there

:30:34.:30:40.

are three years to go. We have recruitment campaigns, increasing

:30:41.:30:45.

the size of the Navy, the size of the Royal Air Force and we are

:30:46.:30:48.

determined to improve the offer we make to service men and women to

:30:49.:30:52.

attract the best of each generation to join. At the moment recruitment

:30:53.:30:56.

is going badly and you are not getting enough into the army, you

:30:57.:31:01.

were met to get 9500 in this year and it is 6000, you are going

:31:02.:31:13.

backwards. I do not accept that. We are getting people to join up. We

:31:14.:31:16.

have several years before we reach our target but we are spending more

:31:17.:31:18.

on the Armed Forces. The budget goes up every year and we are giving them

:31:19.:31:22.

the equipment they need. The figures, the target was 9580 to join

:31:23.:31:28.

last year and the figure you achieved was 6900. That is why top

:31:29.:31:32.

brass are worried about you and the army under you. We cannot force

:31:33.:31:38.

people to join, we do not have conscription, the Army has to

:31:39.:31:41.

compete with other sectors. So it was a silly promise? It was a

:31:42.:31:46.

promise over the parliament and we are only two years into the

:31:47.:31:50.

parliament and we are spending money on recruiting and giving the Armed

:31:51.:31:54.

Forces equipment they need. You have seen aircraft carriers being new

:31:55.:32:01.

frigates on the way, we are buying new aircraft, and investing in

:32:02.:32:06.

equipment they need. You said you will increase defence spending by

:32:07.:32:11.

nope .5% above inflation. How much does that cost? That costs roughly

:32:12.:32:15.

over the five years of the new parliament added to the two years of

:32:16.:32:21.

the last parliament giving the forces roughly ?1 billion more than

:32:22.:32:25.

if we had simply met the 2% target. The money comes from the growing

:32:26.:32:29.

economy and it was a commitment we made, choice to spend more on the

:32:30.:32:34.

health service and defence and we have reduce spending in other areas.

:32:35.:32:41.

So this is an underfunded commitment, you are going die in

:32:42.:32:45.

Abbott? It is funded. The money has to come from somewhere. Borrowing,

:32:46.:32:51.

taxes? Borrowing is slowly going to be reduced but it comes from a

:32:52.:32:55.

growing economy is the real answer, because we are running the economy

:32:56.:32:59.

efficiently and because the economy is growing, more people in work,

:33:00.:33:04.

more revenue coming in, and we can make choices, not wild spending and

:33:05.:33:08.

borrowing promises like labour but to spend more on the NHS and

:33:09.:33:14.

defence. That is the extra 1 billion. According to the Defence

:33:15.:33:18.

Select Committee and Times newspaper there is a black hole in your

:33:19.:33:24.

equipment budget of between 7.5 and ?10 million. We are planning the

:33:25.:33:27.

biggest equipment programme in generations. New aircraft carriers,

:33:28.:33:34.

frigates, maritime patrol aircraft, planes to go wander frigates,. -- to

:33:35.:33:43.

go on the frigates. That is a 10-year programme. Part of the cost

:33:44.:33:49.

has to come from efficiency savings, getting rid for example of land,

:33:50.:33:54.

barracks, buildings we do not need, being more efficient in the way we

:33:55.:34:01.

work. 7.3 billion over the 10-year period, over the five-year period,

:34:02.:34:07.

I'm sorry, of efficiency savings on top of savings already made which

:34:08.:34:09.

means if you have airfields you do not need you shut them down. You

:34:10.:34:16.

release them to housing. We have 60 airfields, we do not need 60. You

:34:17.:34:21.

have to be more efficient as a large organisation and look at ways of

:34:22.:34:25.

working. It is absolutely right to invest in that programme we have to

:34:26.:34:31.

reinvest efficiency savings we make. The big change is we keep all the

:34:32.:34:35.

efficiency savings. The Treasury does not take them back. You have

:34:36.:34:40.

not persuaded your top brass who wrote a letter to the Prime Minister

:34:41.:34:45.

recently. It says that your statements about the defence budget

:34:46.:34:49.

have been disingenuous quoting irrelevant financial statistics and

:34:50.:34:54.

they say, the government host of spending 2% of GDP on defence,

:34:55.:34:59.

widely criticised as a deception and the Armed Forces are having to seek

:35:00.:35:06.

damaging savings at a time when combat operations is increasing. The

:35:07.:35:11.

2% is not our figure, it is the Nato figure. The Secretary General of

:35:12.:35:17.

Nato was in London this week seeing myself on the Prime Minister and he

:35:18.:35:21.

confirmed publicly according to the Nato definitions, we are meeting 2%,

:35:22.:35:28.

almost 2.2%. It is other countries that are not spending up to the 2%

:35:29.:35:32.

and he confirmed our spending is defined according to Nato

:35:33.:35:36.

guidelines. These are former chiefs of defence staff. Have you ever met

:35:37.:35:42.

somebody covered in brass, a former defence chief who does not want more

:35:43.:35:46.

spending. They are passionate about defence and so am I and I am proud

:35:47.:35:51.

the budget is increasing this year. It was 35 billion last year and 36

:35:52.:35:57.

billion this year and will go up to 40 billion and we will invest the

:35:58.:36:01.

biggest equipment programme the Armed Forces have seen in

:36:02.:36:04.

generations and to do that we have to be more efficient about the way

:36:05.:36:09.

we work. What this government has not invested in his defences against

:36:10.:36:14.

cyber attack. You did not give the NHS the proper money to stop this

:36:15.:36:19.

cyber attack with terrible results. In the security review over a year

:36:20.:36:24.

and a few months ago we identified cyber threats is one of the three

:36:25.:36:30.

principal threats and set aside ?1.9 billion to protect us better against

:36:31.:36:35.

cyber and a chunk of that went to the NHS. You didn't pay for upgrades

:36:36.:36:42.

in 2015. We are spending around ?50 million on the NHS cyber systems to

:36:43.:36:48.

improve security and have encouraged NHS trusts to reduce exposure to the

:36:49.:36:54.

weakest systems, Windows XP. Less than 5% of the trusts use that

:36:55.:36:59.

system. There is money available to strengthen these systems. You did

:37:00.:37:02.

not pay for them to strengthen that system at the crucial moment in

:37:03.:37:07.

2015. It was an old system we did not want them to use. We warned them

:37:08.:37:13.

and we warned them again in the spring. We all have to work about

:37:14.:37:19.

this, the NHS wasn't particularly targeted. The same attacks were

:37:20.:37:24.

applied to Nissan and other areas of the economy and around the world. We

:37:25.:37:28.

are spending money on strengthening the cyber defence of hospital

:37:29.:37:35.

systems. Is it the case the nuclear, Trident submarines are using Windows

:37:36.:37:40.

XP? We never comment on different systems for reasons of security

:37:41.:37:44.

submarines use. Vanguard submarines, I can absolutely assure you are safe

:37:45.:37:51.

and operate in isolation went out on patrol. I have complete confidence

:37:52.:37:56.

in the nuclear deterrent. There is no possibility of a malware attack

:37:57.:38:00.

against the military? I can assure you the nuclear deterrent is

:38:01.:38:04.

protected. You used a strange phrase when you said in certain

:38:05.:38:10.

circumstances you thought we would use first strike in nuclear weapons.

:38:11.:38:15.

Can you explain them? The key to the nuclear deterrent is to leave

:38:16.:38:19.

uncertainty in the mind of any potential adversary, if he is

:38:20.:38:23.

looking at a country to attack, as to what response he can expect, to

:38:24.:38:28.

leave ambiguity in the mind of your enemy and that is why we never rule

:38:29.:38:32.

out whether we would apply first strike or not. You can imagine using

:38:33.:38:38.

nuclear weapons before anybody else? Will use them every day. Not like I

:38:39.:38:44.

am talking about. We use them as a deterrent. The job of the nuclear

:38:45.:38:48.

weapons is to deter and has done that successfully over 50 years

:38:49.:38:51.

since we have had the submarine fleet. You have been critical of

:38:52.:38:55.

labour on the nuclear issue and defence. They might say that the

:38:56.:39:03.

problem with your side is wanting to talk first bomb later but you always

:39:04.:39:07.

want to bomb first and talk later. Is there a single war since the

:39:08.:39:10.

Second World War you haven't been in favour of? When we voted on the Iraq

:39:11.:39:18.

War, we were under the impression given by... I voted for it, like a

:39:19.:39:22.

lot of MPs, because we were told there were weapons of mass

:39:23.:39:25.

destruction and it turned out their work. Do you regret voting? I regret

:39:26.:39:33.

on how it was embarked. I regret voting for it on the basis there

:39:34.:39:37.

were weapons of mass destruction. We were dealing with a dictator who

:39:38.:39:41.

invaded other countries and were part of an international coalition.

:39:42.:39:44.

The problem with Labour's approaches they are now saying they would never

:39:45.:39:50.

commit. Emily Thornberry suggested they might negotiate over the

:39:51.:39:54.

Falklands, which is shocking. You were in favour of using force in

:39:55.:39:58.

Libya. The foreign Select Committee report on what happened in Libya

:39:59.:40:02.

after the war you were keen on, it resulted in, it says, economic

:40:03.:40:11.

collapse, intertribal warfare, humanitarian and migrant crises,

:40:12.:40:16.

human rights violations and the spread of the daffy regime weapons

:40:17.:40:20.

and the growth of eyesore. In short it was a total disaster and you

:40:21.:40:24.

voted for it. The reason was to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe

:40:25.:40:30.

where an entire city was potentially going to be wiped out. You are

:40:31.:40:35.

right, when you intervene, we need to learn the lessons of these

:40:36.:40:39.

conflicts, there needs to be a proper plan for stabilisation, I

:40:40.:40:46.

have been working with others in the coalition. That we stabilise these

:40:47.:40:51.

areas and bring in security after the war is over to ensure the Sunni

:40:52.:40:56.

have a proper stake in the running of their country. You have launched

:40:57.:41:02.

a new council housing policy and there are two small gaps in the

:41:03.:41:05.

policy. How many houses, how much money? The money is coming from the

:41:06.:41:12.

1.4 billion earmarked for capital expenditure from the Autumn

:41:13.:41:17.

Statement. It is not new money. It is not new money but the amount of

:41:18.:41:21.

money for each council will depend on deals struck with Manchester,

:41:22.:41:26.

Birmingham, to get more social housing built in these areas of a

:41:27.:41:30.

high enough quality tenants will be able to buy. It is an attractive

:41:31.:41:35.

policy that will give people an alternative to waiting and waiting

:41:36.:41:40.

to get into a council house or flat. You and Emily Thornberry are coming

:41:41.:41:42.

back in a little while. Now, coming up later this morning,

:41:43.:41:44.

Andrew Neil will be talking to the Shadow Business Secretary,

:41:45.:41:47.

Rebecca Long Bailey about Labour's plan for a "Robin Hood tax"

:41:48.:41:49.

and he'll be joined by That's the Sunday Politics

:41:50.:41:52.

at 11 here on BBC One. Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland's First

:41:53.:41:59.

Minister and the leader of the Scottish nationalists, made

:42:00.:42:02.

it absolutely clear at the beginning of the campaign what she thought

:42:03.:42:05.

it was all about - independence, she said

:42:06.:42:08.

was at the heart of this election. And she's with me

:42:09.:42:10.

here in the studio. In an independent Scotland, will

:42:11.:42:19.

children be better able to be done by then they are now? Regardless of

:42:20.:42:24.

whether or not in a future Scotland becomes independent, in Scotland now

:42:25.:42:29.

we are focusing on improving standards in education. If we look

:42:30.:42:33.

at the system we have expanded early years education and have a new

:42:34.:42:37.

curriculum that has been praised by the OECD, we have record numbers of

:42:38.:42:43.

young people leaving school with higher passes, advanced higher

:42:44.:42:47.

passes and going into further education, training or employment.

:42:48.:42:54.

We have identified an issue with literacy and new Morrissey and are

:42:55.:42:56.

determined to accelerate progress in closing the attainment gap. On

:42:57.:43:03.

literacy your record is terrible. Your own government figures show you

:43:04.:43:09.

have among 13 and 14-year-olds, less than half performing well in reading

:43:10.:43:14.

and writing and that has gone down in just a few years under the SNP. I

:43:15.:43:19.

have been open it is not good enough but to put it into context, we have

:43:20.:43:26.

a survey that measures pupils in the second year of secondary school

:43:27.:43:28.

against standards expected to achieve in the third year of

:43:29.:43:32.

secondary school. We have other information that shows by the time

:43:33.:43:36.

young people are in third year, more than 80% reach the required level.

:43:37.:43:43.

We have a new curriculum in place, which has been praised by the OECD

:43:44.:43:47.

which have made recommendations on how to improve teaching. We have a

:43:48.:43:54.

national improvement framework and attainment challenge and fund

:43:55.:43:57.

putting in extra resources. Frameworks and challenges, do you

:43:58.:44:02.

know what is going on in Scottish schools? We have had advice the new

:44:03.:44:09.

curriculum for excellence, it is about educating young people to be

:44:10.:44:13.

good citizens, not to just absorb facts and figures. To encourage

:44:14.:44:20.

young people not just to absorb facts and figures but to analyse

:44:21.:44:23.

that and make sense of the world they live in, it is the right thing

:44:24.:44:27.

to do. We have advice we need to have more of a focus in that

:44:28.:44:32.

curriculum on literacy and numeracy, which we are doing and have

:44:33.:44:36.

introduced new benchmarks. Benchmarks and all the rest of it,

:44:37.:44:42.

but under the SNP things have got worse and dramatically so. I would

:44:43.:44:47.

challenge that in terms of general performance in education. Literacy,

:44:48.:44:52.

there is no question... I am not denying that in terms of literacy

:44:53.:44:55.

and numerous sea and I am telling you what we are doing to address

:44:56.:45:00.

that -- new Morrissey. We have increase the budget by ?120 million,

:45:01.:45:11.

money going to head teachers giving them the ability to invest in

:45:12.:45:16.

measures they think will improve. You are 700 teachers short at the

:45:17.:45:18.

moment. Teaching recruitment is a challenge

:45:19.:45:27.

in many countries which is why we are looking at different ways to

:45:28.:45:30.

bring different kinds of people into teaching. We are trying to encourage

:45:31.:45:36.

retired teachers to come back into teaching. If you pay them more, that

:45:37.:45:45.

might help. We have negotiations with the union about pay, that is

:45:46.:45:48.

one of the issues we have always got to keep in mind. But we also need to

:45:49.:45:54.

be frank about the challenges in education, some of them are not

:45:55.:45:58.

unique to Scotland but we have to recognise the fundamentals of

:45:59.:46:00.

Scottish education in many respects are very strong. We now have record

:46:01.:46:06.

numbers of young people coming out of our schools with high and

:46:07.:46:11.

advanced higher passes and going to positive destinations so I'm focused

:46:12.:46:15.

on improving these areas we need to improve but also making sure we

:46:16.:46:18.

don't do a disservice to teachers and pupils across the country by

:46:19.:46:23.

saying everything about Scottish education is bad because

:46:24.:46:28.

emphatically is not. Let's return to what you said about the independence

:46:29.:46:34.

blueprint in 2013, use of Scottish pupils outperform the OECD average

:46:35.:46:38.

in reading and science, latest results show we have halted a period

:46:39.:46:43.

of relative international decline since 2000. What has happened since

:46:44.:46:48.

then? I'm not going to sit here and tonight that, we have the Pisa

:46:49.:46:57.

study, we also have one that was published last week, a sample survey

:46:58.:47:01.

that looks at small numbers of pupils. One of the things we have

:47:02.:47:05.

done is introduced the national improvement framework... You didn't

:47:06.:47:09.

challenge the rankings when they were going well for you, you cannot

:47:10.:47:14.

challenge them now they are going badly for you. I didn't challenge

:47:15.:47:21.

them. I know how important a good education was for me, I want young

:47:22.:47:27.

people to get the best education, the vast majority do but there are

:47:28.:47:32.

areas we need to do better. Scotland used to be one of the best educated

:47:33.:47:36.

countries in the world, and you have all the powers to change this, and

:47:37.:47:43.

yet things are going backwards. On literacy and numerous aches have a

:47:44.:47:47.

challenge but in many other areas, that is not true. I think you are

:47:48.:47:54.

trying to conduct this interview on the basis I'm being defensive, I am

:47:55.:47:57.

not being defensive, I readily accept the areas we need to do

:47:58.:48:01.

better and that's why we have put such effort into the initiatives and

:48:02.:48:05.

reforms that we are taking forward. The point I was going to make

:48:06.:48:09.

earlier and didn't get the chance to finish is that we are reducing more

:48:10.:48:14.

transparency so that I can be held more to account. Instead of sample

:48:15.:48:17.

surveys, we have information on every pupil in Scotland at the

:48:18.:48:25.

required levels, broken down school by school so there will be no hiding

:48:26.:48:29.

place for any politician. And you said not so long ago you want to be

:48:30.:48:33.

judged by this and your neck would be on the line. You are looking a

:48:34.:48:41.

little Mary Queen of Scots. I don't wish to be Mary Queen of Scots. I

:48:42.:48:46.

said I wanted this to be the defining priority of how ever many

:48:47.:48:54.

years I am the Scottish First Minister. We are talking about

:48:55.:48:58.

literacy and numerous it, the other big challenge we have is to close

:48:59.:49:03.

the attainment gap between the richest and poorest young people. We

:49:04.:49:11.

don't measure it in the same way, we have had a discussion about

:49:12.:49:18.

university entrance before, I'm not sitting here making those

:49:19.:49:21.

comparisons, I want Scotland to be its best on its own terms. Is it a

:49:22.:49:26.

scandal if nurses have to use food banks because of their low pay? Yes.

:49:27.:49:34.

That is happening in Scotland, and again you have the power as the

:49:35.:49:38.

Scottish Parliament to set public sector pay. Could raise taxes and

:49:39.:49:44.

pay them properly, why don't you? Let me set out what happens with

:49:45.:49:53.

nurses' Perry, the independent review body makes recommendations.

:49:54.:49:56.

The Scottish Government has always accepted those recommendations,

:49:57.:50:00.

unlike the Westminster government. We have had a period of pay

:50:01.:50:10.

restraint... They have lost 14% real value and you could correct this. We

:50:11.:50:15.

will work with the pay review body to make sure nurses get the pay they

:50:16.:50:20.

deserve. The Royal College of Nursing is now talking about strike

:50:21.:50:26.

action. We work through the pay review body, we have agreed with the

:50:27.:50:29.

unions we will jointly commissioned some research but there another

:50:30.:50:35.

important point. Because of the commitment we gave that nurses would

:50:36.:50:40.

always get their entitlement to progression, and newly qualified

:50:41.:50:45.

nurse in Scotland is paid ?300 more than a newly qualified nurse in

:50:46.:50:53.

England. We have also protected the nurse bursary and we are not asking

:50:54.:50:57.

students to pay tuition fees so it is tough for nurses but we have done

:50:58.:51:01.

far more than any other government in the UK to protect the pay of

:51:02.:51:06.

nurses. You have said independence is at the heart of this choice and

:51:07.:51:11.

talked about material changes. You watch the way public opinion is

:51:12.:51:15.

going in Scotland. If the Conservatives move ahead and you

:51:16.:51:20.

fall back on this election, is that not material change? Let's wait and

:51:21.:51:27.

see who wins the election. For me, this is a question of at the end of

:51:28.:51:31.

the Brexit process, does Scotland get a choice about our future? The

:51:32.:51:36.

position of the Tories and Labour UK wide is that no matter how badly the

:51:37.:51:41.

Brexit negotiations go, people should have to like it or lump it. I

:51:42.:51:45.

believe people in Scotland should have a choice about our own future

:51:46.:51:52.

but there is a more immediate priority... After we have left or

:51:53.:51:56.

before we have left? At the end of the process when the terms of Brexit

:51:57.:52:02.

are clear. In this election there is a more immediate priority and

:52:03.:52:05.

opportunity for Scotland and it's about making sure our voice is heard

:52:06.:52:11.

in the Brexit negotiations. It is an important point because there was a

:52:12.:52:14.

lot of concern even among some people who voted to leave that we

:52:15.:52:20.

are headed down the road of a very extreme Brexit. Proposals would have

:52:21.:52:25.

protected our place in the single market, the Prime Minister dismissed

:52:26.:52:30.

them out of hand. Because they were impractical... She didn't look at

:52:31.:52:39.

them seriously, so this gives a chance. My message on Brexit is

:52:40.:52:44.

whether you voted to leave or remain, if you vote SNP you are

:52:45.:52:49.

strengthening my hand to make sure Scotland's voice is heard in these

:52:50.:52:58.

negotiations and our economy. A lot of us voters voted to leave the EU,

:52:59.:53:02.

you have always said in the past Scotland must be a full member of

:53:03.:53:06.

the EU after independence and it has been suggested by some people that

:53:07.:53:17.

you may move on that. Our position always has been that we want

:53:18.:53:24.

Scotland to be a full member of the European Union... Including the

:53:25.:53:31.

euro? We don't want to go into the euro, no country can be forced to do

:53:32.:53:36.

that Sweden is an example of that. The majority in Scotland voted to

:53:37.:53:42.

remain, some voted leave, so we try to see if there was compromise

:53:43.:53:48.

ground and put forward proposals to leave the EU as part of the UK but

:53:49.:53:54.

protect our single market position. Would an independent Scottish

:53:55.:54:02.

membership of Efta the unacceptable compromise?

:54:03.:54:12.

We have to set out the process for regaining or retaining, depending

:54:13.:54:15.

where we are in the Brexit process, EU membership. It may be that we

:54:16.:54:24.

have a phased approach to that... Efta first, EU later kind of thing?

:54:25.:54:30.

We have to state that at the time because there are many uncertainties

:54:31.:54:33.

around the process but in this election, if we want to have a

:54:34.:54:36.

chance of protecting our place in the single market, then vote SNP to

:54:37.:54:42.

strengthen our hand. You got the line out in the end there. Thanks

:54:43.:54:45.

for joining us. Now a look at what's coming up

:54:46.:54:47.

straight after this programme. At ten o'clock we will be debating

:54:48.:54:55.

life's to inevitability is, tax and death. We ask, do we have a right

:54:56.:55:08.

not to be offended? And is easier to face death if you in God?

:55:09.:55:14.

So Michael Fallon and Emily Thornberry are back with me. Emily

:55:15.:55:22.

Thornberry, there has been a lot of attacks on your party's patria to

:55:23.:55:25.

some over the last few weeks and there is another story in the papers

:55:26.:55:30.

today about Jeremy Corbyn and the IRA. What is your message to

:55:31.:55:33.

working-class voters who look at this stuff and say, I just don't

:55:34.:55:38.

like it? There were negotiations going on behind the scenes and

:55:39.:55:42.

people speaking openly. This is something which has been known for

:55:43.:55:47.

30 years and it has been dragged up at this particular time because of

:55:48.:55:50.

the general election. Not surprising. I understand that, and

:55:51.:55:59.

if you judge people by who it is you spend time with, the question is do

:56:00.:56:06.

you have to be -- do your underwear you work on the 27th of May 2007?

:56:07.:56:12.

You were celebrating the real action of President Assad -- re-election.

:56:13.:56:20.

I'm not going to judge you on that and I don't think people should

:56:21.:56:23.

judge Jeremy by trying to talk to people who might be open to a

:56:24.:56:27.

settlement in Northern Ireland. There was a little bit of a

:56:28.:56:31.

difference. I was a Parliamentary all-party visit to Syria in 2007,

:56:32.:56:39.

MPs have gone every year to Syria during the better times. I remember

:56:40.:56:44.

a fact-finding visit to Syria that happened every year with MPs going

:56:45.:56:52.

out there... Did you meet Assad while you were there? Shake his

:56:53.:56:59.

hand? Did you celebrate his re-election? It was ten years ago,

:57:00.:57:04.

we had a different relationship with him then. There is a huge difference

:57:05.:57:08.

to speaking to foreign leaders, and I speak to them all the time, and

:57:09.:57:15.

Jeremy Corbyn's open support for the IRA. You cannot go around making

:57:16.:57:21.

this stuff up. There is an election on and people need to make decisions

:57:22.:57:25.

on the basis of the truth. You have said I want to negotiate the future

:57:26.:57:34.

of the Falklands, that is... It is untrue! 20 minutes ago you implied

:57:35.:57:41.

sitting there... You cannot make this up as you go along. People need

:57:42.:57:46.

to make decisions based on facts and information, proper information, and

:57:47.:57:50.

it is not right for you to go around slinging dead cats the way you do.

:57:51.:57:53.

People need to concentrate because there is a serious choice to be

:57:54.:57:59.

made. Your excuse is Jeremy Corbyn is on some kind of journey, well

:58:00.:58:05.

that is too great a risk for this country. In relation to Nato there

:58:06.:58:11.

has been a change and we are clear. Can I ask you both about the word

:58:12.:58:16.

being used again and again - landslide. Tom Watson said if things

:58:17.:58:21.

don't change the Conservatives are on course for a Thatcher style

:58:22.:58:24.

landslide, why do you think he said that? I suppose he may have been

:58:25.:58:31.

distracted by the polls, but they have not been terribly reliable

:58:32.:58:34.

until now and we have another three weeks. We will be out there putting

:58:35.:58:39.

out the message and the truth about what Labour stand for. Michael

:58:40.:58:46.

Fallon, are you heading for landslide do you think? It is far

:58:47.:58:49.

too early to start predicting the result of this election. We are

:58:50.:58:59.

going for a stronger majority... You nearly said strong and stable! Thank

:59:00.:59:04.

you, that is all we have time for this Sunday.

:59:05.:59:06.

We'll be back the same time next week, when our guests

:59:07.:59:09.

will include Ukip's leader, Paul Nuttall.

:59:10.:59:11.

Andrew's guests are first minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon, secretary of state for defence Sir Michael Fallon and shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry.

The newspapers are reviewed by BBC Scotland editor Sarah Smith, Andrew Rawnsley of The Observer and Jane Moore of The Sun.