14/05/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

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Andrew's guests are first minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon, secretary of state for defence Sir Michael Fallon and shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry.

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If there's one thing that's dominated this


it's the battle for the votes of the patriotic working classes -


Labour promising fairer Robin Hood taxes and an ethical foreign policy,


the Tories attacking Jeremy Corbyn for being soft on defence


while offering those voters new council houses.


Time, this morning, to probe a little closer.


So, two radically different political personalities go head


to head - Emily Thornberry, the Shadow Foreign Secretary who's


attacked Theresa May for "fawning" over Donald Trump.


And Sir Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary who's savaged


Jeremny Corbyn as feeble and dangerous for Britain.


But we're not limiting ourselves to London this morning.


Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland's First Minister and leader of the SNP,


is here in the studio talking about why independence,


whatever the unionists say, is on the ballot in this election.


Our news review this morning features the BBC journalist who's


been following Nicola Sturgeon on the campaign trail -


Observer star commentator Andrew Rawnsley.


And from the Sun, pulling no punches, Jane Moore.


An international effort is under way to track down the criminals behind


the global cyber attack that wreaked havoc across the NHS on Friday.


Hospitals, GP surgeries and ambulance services


across England and Scotland were disrupted when their IT systems


But experts fear that hackers may seek to exploit the chaos.


The Conservatives say they'll join forces with councils and housing


associations to build thousands of new homes for rent -


However it's not clear how much money the Tories would invest -


and Labour have dismissed the announcement as spin.


Labour says that if it wins the general election it will impose


a so-called Robin Hood tax on financial transactions


They say the levy would raise ?26 billion


over the next parliament for public services.


The Conservatives said it was "madness" to target


Portugal has won the Eurovision Song Contest for the first time


The United Kingdom - represented by former


X Factor contestant Lucie Jones - got its best


result in six years after coming 15th.


The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.


The NHS story over many of the papers with the Mail on Sunday


saying there were 66 alerts to the NHS but nothing was done before the


cyber attacks and the Sunday Telegraph has the same story. Chaos


hitting thousands of patients. The Sunday Times, Harry Styles is


apparently against Brexit. Why we need to know this, I don't know.


They splash on Theresa May's pledge on their council house revolution,


they said. Lots of those who voted remain targeting MPs. And a


millionaire Brexit donor targeting pro-remain MPs according to the


Observer newspaper. The Sunday express, Theresa May to smash Maggie


record, it says. Perhaps optimistically.


Unless you have been locked in a cupboard, you will know the NHS has


been the victim of a cyber attack, as have other organisations


worldwide. It is called Eternal Blue, it sounds like a paint colour.


Originally designed by DNS a in the States and possibly by our own


spooks working with them. -- NSA. Microsoft had issued a warning in


March. It is like all of us, you do not want to spend the money until


you are burgled and then you secure your house. Charles Arthur, a


technology writer, a good piece, taking the Mickey out of Amber Rudd,


saying she was on the radio, saying patients were inconvenienced but no


date had been accessed. He says unfortunately also the NHS staff


cannot access data. He says Amber Rudd can burble on but the 1 billion


put in is a fraction of the amount needed to upgrade the system. Should


we spend more money to protect institutions against attacks? In


this case it is much loved, the institution, the NHS but we have


seen private companies have been as vulnerable and their customers have


had as many problems. The difficulty for organisations is cybercrime by


its nature is nimble. Money may be part of it and a lot of it may be


keeping ahead of cybercriminals. This has been happening to private


companies and charities for years but they have not like to admit it


because it makes them look vulnerable. Which undermines public


confidence. Now we know it has opened to the NHS it has opened a


can of worms. In fairness to the trusts, if they said we will spend 5


billion on a computer everyone will say the NHS cut operations. It might


not take 5 billion. There is a hero in the story. Nobody knows his name.


His online handle is MalwareTech. Within eight a few hours, he says,


he was a way to to save the NHS computers and disable the malware.


He said it only took him a couple of hours so maybe it is not 5 billion


to upgrade. Teenagers. There is a ripple of expectation running


through the country. We will turn to the election coverage. You have


Craig Oliver. Interesting his byline is simple Craig Oliver, not Sir


Craig Oliver. The knighthood he got from his mate David Cameron. He said


it is all very well to say it is a shoo-in for Theresa May but if you


don't think the manifesto matters you could not be more wrong. He said


this week she will have to prove she is on the side of the people and


what she said is not just "Windy rhetoric". He says Theresa May is


the last one truly standing, will be master of all she surveys on June


the 9th, but her manifesto could be the route map between being seen as


a great Prime Minister, or it could be a bland document that put safety


first. Andrew, two stories happening about what is really going on in the


campaign and the Mail on Sunday has a poll by Michael Ashcroft which


suggests a fast Tory landslide. Former Tory Treasury. The paper poll


intensely when there is a campaign and we have the Mail on Sunday which


says it is a shock mega- poll that reveals true scale of Labour


collapse and putting the Prime Minister on track for a 172 seat


landslide. Campaigners would regard this story as unhelpful because one


of the worries in the conservative high command is giving the


impression it is all over and Theresa May is steam-rollering to


majority. Maybe it will encourage Labour supporters to turn up. If you


look at the polling, Labour above 30%, better than sometimes Ed


Miliband was doing. It is not clear Jeremy Corbyn on the campaign trail,


not doing any harm at all. The Sunday Mirror says he is closing the


gap. Even honest pollsters would probably say this candidly. Window


they overestimated the vote last time. Have they overcorrected and


underestimating the Labour vote? Have they not corrected enough,


which will be alarming for Labour which would show they are doing even


worse. We are not talking about the margin of error when you talk about


Labour closing the lead to 18%. Sarah Smith, you have a story on the


tablet. There are a Scottish election is going on and different


manifestos in Scotland and possibly one of the big stars of the campaign


is Ruth Davidson. She is hoping to lead a Tory revival into


Westminster. They only have one seat in Westminster and have a target of


reaching ten, 12 seats, which would be remarkable. The story here today


is she will announce a U-turn on prescription charges when they


launched the Scottish manifesto, which will be fascinating because


the UK Tory policy is to charge for prescriptions. It was an SNP policy


that in Scotland they are free and now the Conservatives are getting


behind the idea of free prescriptions, probably because they


are trying to eat into the Labour vote. The election in Scotland split


between nationalists supporting independence, probably voting SNP


and unionists on the other side and Tories hope to say, we are the party


of the union, if you do not want a referendum, vote for us. Bringing


voters with them on policies like this. Let's move away from the


election to the Rachel Nickell murder. It was 25 years ago,


astonishingly. Wimbledon Common. Her son, who was there at the time...


Interesting about trauma and toddlers. He was not quite three.


You wondered how much he remembers. He has written a


book. His father took him to France so he did not become a media


sensation. What I find interesting. He says I forgive my mother's


killer. He had a rough upbringing and childhood. He was a


schizophrenic. He has tried to commit suicide. I do not feel


resentment. It is remarkable. Some foreign politics. Trump sacking the


FBI boss and the extraordinary language he used. You are hereby


terminated, he said. Absolutely amazing. This has been compares to


Watergate as one of the great Washington scandal moments. An


astonishing story that talks about how Donald Trump sees it and the way


he can use his presidency and what is happening with the FBI and the


investigation into Russian hacking of the election and the story the


Sunday Times have is interesting saying the FBI chief James Comey who


was sacked is planning to strike back. Giving interviews and possible


testimony about why he was sacked. It was probably because of


congressional testimony he gave in the first place that Trump sacked


him. In the United States Congress get interested in doing


investigations. The process takes over and you get endless


investigations and people keep pulling at the threads until things


unravel. That is a large part of Watergate. It was a year between the


President sacking the special prosecutor and having to resign, in


Watergate. Meanwhile, Trump issues a menacing warning that Comey better


hope there are not tapes of conversations as if he has been


taping what is going on so he can use it against his enemies. That


does reek of Richard Nixon. What is interesting, you see Trump doing


what he wants, sacking the FBI director when he feels like it. It


is just the norm to do that, there is the constraint. Back to the story


in the Sun newspaper. In this campaign we will have figures that


might be dodgy from politicians and forecasters. For a lot of people


they feel their economy, in the weekly shopping basket, the sun on


Sunday headlines warning an unexpected price hike in the bagging


area. Reporting supermarkets raising prices of own brand products. This


might have something to do with the slide in the value of sterling since


Britain voted to leave the European Union. Or, supermarkets being


generally naughty. A warning that the price of foodstuffs is going up


quite a lot. Now, fizzy water. On the very few


occasions I drink something nonalcoholic, I go for fizzy water.


No, apparently fizzy water makes you fat. I cannot understand that. It's


a weird thing. It's because the carbonation makes you want to eat


more, it stimulates your appetite. Stick to the wine in future. Some


people are still enjoying breakfast so we will leave it there. Thank you


very much indeed. So we've been talking a lot


about Labour, and we're joined by the Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily


Thornberry. Good morning, in a few weeks' time


you could be Foreign Secretary, will you at that point tell Donald Trump


is not welcome here for a state visit? No, because he's been


invited. I think it was a mistake to invite him quite as quickly as he


was invited. Frankly Obama had to wait for years, I think it would


have been better to see him settle down. Jeremy Corbyn himself said he


was not welcome in Britain. Yes, I mean, it takes these things in


stages. I think we have to welcome the American president to Britain


and work with him. The difference I have is I would be prepared to stand


up to him, I would be prepared to say sorry Mr President, you are


wrong about that. You are doing the wrong thing. So you would have over


here and then give him a scolding, he may not want to come under those


circumstances. There we are. I also hear he doesn't want to share


transport with Prince Charles because he doesn't agree with him on


climate change. We cannot disinvite him once he's been invited because


that would be to the detriment of our country. Use at Labour would not


turn a blind eye to human rights abuses in, for instance, China, what


does that mean? We should not be afraid to raise these issues,


despite the fact we may be going for a trade deal with a particular


country but we have to be clear about the things we disagree on the


country with. I am very worried that when I see Theresa May going to the


Gulf states for example and desperately after trade deals and so


on, she doesn't raise the issue of Yemen, she doesn't raise the fact


Saudi Arabia has been bombing weddings and funerals. Is your


ethical foreign policy sufficiently ethical that if you raise these


issues and you get given a dusty response or hostile response, and


you actually stop trade deals happening, he would go as far as to


endanger the involvement of the Chinese for instance? I'm not saying


we are going to boycott China for heaven 's sake but there is a


middleweight, through the sort of fawning, frankly, which I think we


have seen Theresa May indulging in in relation to Donald Trump and the


way we would approach things. Let me turn to Trident because you don't


like the Trump Administration and yet we rely on the administration


for close cooperation to make our Trident submarines work in terms of


targeting and so forth. Do you withdraw that corporation? The most


important part of our defence is Nato and that's partnership we have


with America and the rest of our Nato allies and we are committed to


that and we should be. We have been committed to Nato for a number of


years, and we need to work collectively with Nato. So Nato is a


crucial part of our negotiations? Yes. I ask because Jeremy Corbyn


recently spoke directly about Nato. We, in the radical end, the left and


the unions of the Labour Party have got to be realistic Nato is a major


problem and a major difficulty and we have to campaign against Nato's


power, influence and global reach because it is a danger to world


peace and a danger to world security. Severities, will you


campaign against Nato's world power? I think that is a quote from six


years ago. Jeremy has been on a journey, to coin a phrase, and there


have been a number of discussions and it is quite clear that the


predominance of opinion, and you know, within the Labour Party, we


are committed to Nato. The reality is we have been relying on our


partnership in Nato, the way we have been buying things and committing


things, if we were to pull out of Nato forces would be... For example,


how would we get our forces off Salisbury Plain at the moment


without the assistance of Nato? We don't have enough frigates to move


them on to the continent of Europe if necessary if the Russians came


rolling over the hill. Have you made these points to Jeremy Corbyn? Yes,


I have. So you put him back in his box? Because he repeated those


statements during the judicial campaign. I am telling you that the


Labour Party's position is a clear one, and I am Shadow Foreign


Secretary. This is someone who will be Prime Minister if you win the


election, and he is saying Labour should campaign against Nato. If you


heard what he said at Chatham House he did not say this. He is clear we


have a commitment to Nato and that is that. So you can unsay these kind


of things? You can change your mind. Will a Labour government in Britain


engage with military operations without the support of the UN ever?


We don't think it is right for there to be interventions in other


countries without it being done on a multi-natural basis. We do not think


it is right for Theresa May to give unconditional support to Donald


Trump in bombing Syria. We don't think he should be encouraged to


think it is right for him to behave unilaterally. We think it undermines


the security of the world and the best way for the international


community to proceed is by way of agreement. It means the UN Security


Council? Yes. So is it right to give countries like China and Russia veto


over any possibility of us using military action ever? It is


difficult. On Kosovo for example the Russians were vetoing the use of


military force in relation to Kosovo but there was international


agreement that there should be action there with the exception of


the Russians, and there was developed out of the doctrine of


responsibility to protect so it was legal at that point of the an


intervention. Robin Cook led the charge on that and he voted for


that. He was developing a responsibility to protect doctrine.


And Jeremy Corbyn spoke against that, who was right? I think Robin


was right. Looking forward, do you think the Labour government would


send the task force against the Falklands if there was a crisis


there? Yes. Again, Jeremy Corbyn has said he would like to negotiate with


the Argentina government over the future of the Falklands and I wonder


if you would like to be part of that negotiations? If British citizens


are being attacked, we defend them but we don't want to get into a


position like the Conservatives, who seem to be so gung ho, we will on


this and do that, no, you have to look at the alternatives first. In


the end there is no settlement of international disputes without there


being international agreement. Its question of how you get there


fastest. Do you think there was an available compromise over the


Falklands to be done? Acting so long as the people of the Falklands


wished to remain British, they will remain British. There needs to be a


future in terms of talking to neighbours of the Falklands and I


think it is to the economic advantage of both that they are able


to work more closely than they are at the moment but certainly not


under the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands. Again, "It seems


to be ridiculous in the 21st century we get into conflict with the


Falkland Islands... Lets bring about some sensible dialogue" Jeremy


Corbyn says, so he's saying let's talk about the future of the


Falkland Islands. I am quoting Jeremy Corbyn at you again and


again. I don't see why I should disagree with that. You say this is


what he says, and in fact he's saying something, I don't agree with


you. Let's talk about the Robin Hood tax. Sadiq Khan, who is in charge of


London, has called this madness and said if you continue with this


countries will leave the UK and it's a really dangerous policy. Again, I


don't think that is an exact quote. Madness is exact. At the moment we


have a tax which applies when you buy stocks and shares, and at the


moment some people who are called market-makers, if they buy these


shares they don't pay the tax, I don't really understand why that is.


Then the other thing is that we also think we should extend the tax to


different types of instruments but such as derivatives because it is a


kind of betting on the stock market and it will help stabilise the stock


market. Many other countries want to do it. -- many other countries do


it. Hillary Clinton wanted to do it if she was elected. Do you agree it


should be done in coordination with other countries to avoid hedge fund


managers moving to Paris or Dublin or wherever they want to move to?


The House of Lords committee looked at any changes of behaviour and they


said they didn't think it would be as drastic as some of the doomsayers


say it will. In the end it is a question, I think, of tidying this


tax up. It doesn't seem to be right that you can bet on a company's


debts and not have to pay tax whereas if you want to invest in a


company you have to pay tax. What you say to colleagues like Ben


Bradshaw who are going round telling voters vote for me, that doesn't


mean Labour government. There is a choice. We will either get a


Conservative government or Labour government and that is the choice


people have coming up in front of them. Our vision for Britain is an


entirely different one to the Tories' and people need to accept


that. You don't believe it is defeatist? We have another three


weeks to go, everything is to play for. You can see the way in which on


a day-to-day basis we are attracting more support. The things we came out


with in the manifesto are enormously popular. We are giving the public


answers to their problems. People need to look at what choice they


have, not Theresa May's hair, not whether Jeremy Corbyn should shave,


it's about which politicians can offer you what, what are the


different futures Britain has and the Labour one is much more positive


and in line with what the people want. It is also play Fox and I


don't want to be defeatist. As to whether Jeremy Corbyn should shave,


we can discuss that later because you will be joining us later on.


Chaos and bluster all over the place.


But, enough of that, it's time to go over to the weather


The skyline behind me looks a little chaotic, and we will see some


turbulence skies today with the showers, which are already turning


thundery out west. This is the rain many in the east of work too, giving


much-needed rain to the gardens, it is clearing out now and it's a


lovely start of the day for many parts of the country. Much brighter


skies across the east of Scotland, it will linger over the north of


Scotland, but there will be a handful of heavy showers over the


Grampian region, simile so with Northern Ireland, but equally


lengthy spells of dry weather with strong sunshine in between. There


will also be a scattering of showers across England and Wales, and the


coast looks set to get the best of the sunshine. It will feel warm away


from the showers which feel quite blustery at times. It will be chilly


initially in eastern areas. More chaos as we head towards Monday


morning, wind and rain to boot, and it is May. Some heavy rain across


south-west Scotland, north-west England and Wales. Even rain further


south and east. The consolation is it is mild so it is warm weather but


the unsettled weather is due to search through midweek.


Sir Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary,


has been used by the Prime Minister as her faithful attack dog so far


He is not, I think it's fair to say, a massive fan of Jeremy Corbyn,


but, of course, he has lots of questions to answer about


the state of Britain's Armed Forces under the Conservatives.


Welcome. In 2015 the Conservatives made a solemn promise about the size


of the Armed Forces, can you remind of the promise. We said we would


build the army up to eight 2000 by 20 20. What is the size of the Armed


Forces? It is just over 79,000. You have not kept the promise? We have


not got there yet. We said we would build up forces, including reserves


to just over 30,000. The quote was, we will maintain the size of the


regular armed services and not reduce the army to below 82000 and


the current figure is 79,000, so you have broken that promise. We said we


would do it over the parliament and we are spending a lot of money. You


have reduce the Army. Increasing the size of the Army up to 2020, there


are three years to go. We have recruitment campaigns, increasing


the size of the Navy, the size of the Royal Air Force and we are


determined to improve the offer we make to service men and women to


attract the best of each generation to join. At the moment recruitment


is going badly and you are not getting enough into the army, you


were met to get 9500 in this year and it is 6000, you are going


backwards. I do not accept that. We are getting people to join up. We


have several years before we reach our target but we are spending more


on the Armed Forces. The budget goes up every year and we are giving them


the equipment they need. The figures, the target was 9580 to join


last year and the figure you achieved was 6900. That is why top


brass are worried about you and the army under you. We cannot force


people to join, we do not have conscription, the Army has to


compete with other sectors. So it was a silly promise? It was a


promise over the parliament and we are only two years into the


parliament and we are spending money on recruiting and giving the Armed


Forces equipment they need. You have seen aircraft carriers being new


frigates on the way, we are buying new aircraft, and investing in


equipment they need. You said you will increase defence spending by


nope .5% above inflation. How much does that cost? That costs roughly


over the five years of the new parliament added to the two years of


the last parliament giving the forces roughly ?1 billion more than


if we had simply met the 2% target. The money comes from the growing


economy and it was a commitment we made, choice to spend more on the


health service and defence and we have reduce spending in other areas.


So this is an underfunded commitment, you are going die in


Abbott? It is funded. The money has to come from somewhere. Borrowing,


taxes? Borrowing is slowly going to be reduced but it comes from a


growing economy is the real answer, because we are running the economy


efficiently and because the economy is growing, more people in work,


more revenue coming in, and we can make choices, not wild spending and


borrowing promises like labour but to spend more on the NHS and


defence. That is the extra 1 billion. According to the Defence


Select Committee and Times newspaper there is a black hole in your


equipment budget of between 7.5 and ?10 million. We are planning the


biggest equipment programme in generations. New aircraft carriers,


frigates, maritime patrol aircraft, planes to go wander frigates,. -- to


go on the frigates. That is a 10-year programme. Part of the cost


has to come from efficiency savings, getting rid for example of land,


barracks, buildings we do not need, being more efficient in the way we


work. 7.3 billion over the 10-year period, over the five-year period,


I'm sorry, of efficiency savings on top of savings already made which


means if you have airfields you do not need you shut them down. You


release them to housing. We have 60 airfields, we do not need 60. You


have to be more efficient as a large organisation and look at ways of


working. It is absolutely right to invest in that programme we have to


reinvest efficiency savings we make. The big change is we keep all the


efficiency savings. The Treasury does not take them back. You have


not persuaded your top brass who wrote a letter to the Prime Minister


recently. It says that your statements about the defence budget


have been disingenuous quoting irrelevant financial statistics and


they say, the government host of spending 2% of GDP on defence,


widely criticised as a deception and the Armed Forces are having to seek


damaging savings at a time when combat operations is increasing. The


2% is not our figure, it is the Nato figure. The Secretary General of


Nato was in London this week seeing myself on the Prime Minister and he


confirmed publicly according to the Nato definitions, we are meeting 2%,


almost 2.2%. It is other countries that are not spending up to the 2%


and he confirmed our spending is defined according to Nato


guidelines. These are former chiefs of defence staff. Have you ever met


somebody covered in brass, a former defence chief who does not want more


spending. They are passionate about defence and so am I and I am proud


the budget is increasing this year. It was 35 billion last year and 36


billion this year and will go up to 40 billion and we will invest the


biggest equipment programme the Armed Forces have seen in


generations and to do that we have to be more efficient about the way


we work. What this government has not invested in his defences against


cyber attack. You did not give the NHS the proper money to stop this


cyber attack with terrible results. In the security review over a year


and a few months ago we identified cyber threats is one of the three


principal threats and set aside ?1.9 billion to protect us better against


cyber and a chunk of that went to the NHS. You didn't pay for upgrades


in 2015. We are spending around ?50 million on the NHS cyber systems to


improve security and have encouraged NHS trusts to reduce exposure to the


weakest systems, Windows XP. Less than 5% of the trusts use that


system. There is money available to strengthen these systems. You did


not pay for them to strengthen that system at the crucial moment in


2015. It was an old system we did not want them to use. We warned them


and we warned them again in the spring. We all have to work about


this, the NHS wasn't particularly targeted. The same attacks were


applied to Nissan and other areas of the economy and around the world. We


are spending money on strengthening the cyber defence of hospital


systems. Is it the case the nuclear, Trident submarines are using Windows


XP? We never comment on different systems for reasons of security


submarines use. Vanguard submarines, I can absolutely assure you are safe


and operate in isolation went out on patrol. I have complete confidence


in the nuclear deterrent. There is no possibility of a malware attack


against the military? I can assure you the nuclear deterrent is


protected. You used a strange phrase when you said in certain


circumstances you thought we would use first strike in nuclear weapons.


Can you explain them? The key to the nuclear deterrent is to leave


uncertainty in the mind of any potential adversary, if he is


looking at a country to attack, as to what response he can expect, to


leave ambiguity in the mind of your enemy and that is why we never rule


out whether we would apply first strike or not. You can imagine using


nuclear weapons before anybody else? Will use them every day. Not like I


am talking about. We use them as a deterrent. The job of the nuclear


weapons is to deter and has done that successfully over 50 years


since we have had the submarine fleet. You have been critical of


labour on the nuclear issue and defence. They might say that the


problem with your side is wanting to talk first bomb later but you always


want to bomb first and talk later. Is there a single war since the


Second World War you haven't been in favour of? When we voted on the Iraq


War, we were under the impression given by... I voted for it, like a


lot of MPs, because we were told there were weapons of mass


destruction and it turned out their work. Do you regret voting? I regret


on how it was embarked. I regret voting for it on the basis there


were weapons of mass destruction. We were dealing with a dictator who


invaded other countries and were part of an international coalition.


The problem with Labour's approaches they are now saying they would never


commit. Emily Thornberry suggested they might negotiate over the


Falklands, which is shocking. You were in favour of using force in


Libya. The foreign Select Committee report on what happened in Libya


after the war you were keen on, it resulted in, it says, economic


collapse, intertribal warfare, humanitarian and migrant crises,


human rights violations and the spread of the daffy regime weapons


and the growth of eyesore. In short it was a total disaster and you


voted for it. The reason was to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe


where an entire city was potentially going to be wiped out. You are


right, when you intervene, we need to learn the lessons of these


conflicts, there needs to be a proper plan for stabilisation, I


have been working with others in the coalition. That we stabilise these


areas and bring in security after the war is over to ensure the Sunni


have a proper stake in the running of their country. You have launched


a new council housing policy and there are two small gaps in the


policy. How many houses, how much money? The money is coming from the


1.4 billion earmarked for capital expenditure from the Autumn


Statement. It is not new money. It is not new money but the amount of


money for each council will depend on deals struck with Manchester,


Birmingham, to get more social housing built in these areas of a


high enough quality tenants will be able to buy. It is an attractive


policy that will give people an alternative to waiting and waiting


to get into a council house or flat. You and Emily Thornberry are coming


back in a little while. Now, coming up later this morning,


Andrew Neil will be talking to the Shadow Business Secretary,


Rebecca Long Bailey about Labour's plan for a "Robin Hood tax"


and he'll be joined by That's the Sunday Politics


at 11 here on BBC One. Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland's First


Minister and the leader of the Scottish nationalists, made


it absolutely clear at the beginning of the campaign what she thought


it was all about - independence, she said


was at the heart of this election. And she's with me


here in the studio. In an independent Scotland, will


children be better able to be done by then they are now? Regardless of


whether or not in a future Scotland becomes independent, in Scotland now


we are focusing on improving standards in education. If we look


at the system we have expanded early years education and have a new


curriculum that has been praised by the OECD, we have record numbers of


young people leaving school with higher passes, advanced higher


passes and going into further education, training or employment.


We have identified an issue with literacy and new Morrissey and are


determined to accelerate progress in closing the attainment gap. On


literacy your record is terrible. Your own government figures show you


have among 13 and 14-year-olds, less than half performing well in reading


and writing and that has gone down in just a few years under the SNP. I


have been open it is not good enough but to put it into context, we have


a survey that measures pupils in the second year of secondary school


against standards expected to achieve in the third year of


secondary school. We have other information that shows by the time


young people are in third year, more than 80% reach the required level.


We have a new curriculum in place, which has been praised by the OECD


which have made recommendations on how to improve teaching. We have a


national improvement framework and attainment challenge and fund


putting in extra resources. Frameworks and challenges, do you


know what is going on in Scottish schools? We have had advice the new


curriculum for excellence, it is about educating young people to be


good citizens, not to just absorb facts and figures. To encourage


young people not just to absorb facts and figures but to analyse


that and make sense of the world they live in, it is the right thing


to do. We have advice we need to have more of a focus in that


curriculum on literacy and numeracy, which we are doing and have


introduced new benchmarks. Benchmarks and all the rest of it,


but under the SNP things have got worse and dramatically so. I would


challenge that in terms of general performance in education. Literacy,


there is no question... I am not denying that in terms of literacy


and numerous sea and I am telling you what we are doing to address


that -- new Morrissey. We have increase the budget by ?120 million,


money going to head teachers giving them the ability to invest in


measures they think will improve. You are 700 teachers short at the


moment. Teaching recruitment is a challenge


in many countries which is why we are looking at different ways to


bring different kinds of people into teaching. We are trying to encourage


retired teachers to come back into teaching. If you pay them more, that


might help. We have negotiations with the union about pay, that is


one of the issues we have always got to keep in mind. But we also need to


be frank about the challenges in education, some of them are not


unique to Scotland but we have to recognise the fundamentals of


Scottish education in many respects are very strong. We now have record


numbers of young people coming out of our schools with high and


advanced higher passes and going to positive destinations so I'm focused


on improving these areas we need to improve but also making sure we


don't do a disservice to teachers and pupils across the country by


saying everything about Scottish education is bad because


emphatically is not. Let's return to what you said about the independence


blueprint in 2013, use of Scottish pupils outperform the OECD average


in reading and science, latest results show we have halted a period


of relative international decline since 2000. What has happened since


then? I'm not going to sit here and tonight that, we have the Pisa


study, we also have one that was published last week, a sample survey


that looks at small numbers of pupils. One of the things we have


done is introduced the national improvement framework... You didn't


challenge the rankings when they were going well for you, you cannot


challenge them now they are going badly for you. I didn't challenge


them. I know how important a good education was for me, I want young


people to get the best education, the vast majority do but there are


areas we need to do better. Scotland used to be one of the best educated


countries in the world, and you have all the powers to change this, and


yet things are going backwards. On literacy and numerous aches have a


challenge but in many other areas, that is not true. I think you are


trying to conduct this interview on the basis I'm being defensive, I am


not being defensive, I readily accept the areas we need to do


better and that's why we have put such effort into the initiatives and


reforms that we are taking forward. The point I was going to make


earlier and didn't get the chance to finish is that we are reducing more


transparency so that I can be held more to account. Instead of sample


surveys, we have information on every pupil in Scotland at the


required levels, broken down school by school so there will be no hiding


place for any politician. And you said not so long ago you want to be


judged by this and your neck would be on the line. You are looking a


little Mary Queen of Scots. I don't wish to be Mary Queen of Scots. I


said I wanted this to be the defining priority of how ever many


years I am the Scottish First Minister. We are talking about


literacy and numerous it, the other big challenge we have is to close


the attainment gap between the richest and poorest young people. We


don't measure it in the same way, we have had a discussion about


university entrance before, I'm not sitting here making those


comparisons, I want Scotland to be its best on its own terms. Is it a


scandal if nurses have to use food banks because of their low pay? Yes.


That is happening in Scotland, and again you have the power as the


Scottish Parliament to set public sector pay. Could raise taxes and


pay them properly, why don't you? Let me set out what happens with


nurses' Perry, the independent review body makes recommendations.


The Scottish Government has always accepted those recommendations,


unlike the Westminster government. We have had a period of pay


restraint... They have lost 14% real value and you could correct this. We


will work with the pay review body to make sure nurses get the pay they


deserve. The Royal College of Nursing is now talking about strike


action. We work through the pay review body, we have agreed with the


unions we will jointly commissioned some research but there another


important point. Because of the commitment we gave that nurses would


always get their entitlement to progression, and newly qualified


nurse in Scotland is paid ?300 more than a newly qualified nurse in


England. We have also protected the nurse bursary and we are not asking


students to pay tuition fees so it is tough for nurses but we have done


far more than any other government in the UK to protect the pay of


nurses. You have said independence is at the heart of this choice and


talked about material changes. You watch the way public opinion is


going in Scotland. If the Conservatives move ahead and you


fall back on this election, is that not material change? Let's wait and


see who wins the election. For me, this is a question of at the end of


the Brexit process, does Scotland get a choice about our future? The


position of the Tories and Labour UK wide is that no matter how badly the


Brexit negotiations go, people should have to like it or lump it. I


believe people in Scotland should have a choice about our own future


but there is a more immediate priority... After we have left or


before we have left? At the end of the process when the terms of Brexit


are clear. In this election there is a more immediate priority and


opportunity for Scotland and it's about making sure our voice is heard


in the Brexit negotiations. It is an important point because there was a


lot of concern even among some people who voted to leave that we


are headed down the road of a very extreme Brexit. Proposals would have


protected our place in the single market, the Prime Minister dismissed


them out of hand. Because they were impractical... She didn't look at


them seriously, so this gives a chance. My message on Brexit is


whether you voted to leave or remain, if you vote SNP you are


strengthening my hand to make sure Scotland's voice is heard in these


negotiations and our economy. A lot of us voters voted to leave the EU,


you have always said in the past Scotland must be a full member of


the EU after independence and it has been suggested by some people that


you may move on that. Our position always has been that we want


Scotland to be a full member of the European Union... Including the


euro? We don't want to go into the euro, no country can be forced to do


that Sweden is an example of that. The majority in Scotland voted to


remain, some voted leave, so we try to see if there was compromise


ground and put forward proposals to leave the EU as part of the UK but


protect our single market position. Would an independent Scottish


membership of Efta the unacceptable compromise?


We have to set out the process for regaining or retaining, depending


where we are in the Brexit process, EU membership. It may be that we


have a phased approach to that... Efta first, EU later kind of thing?


We have to state that at the time because there are many uncertainties


around the process but in this election, if we want to have a


chance of protecting our place in the single market, then vote SNP to


strengthen our hand. You got the line out in the end there. Thanks


for joining us. Now a look at what's coming up


straight after this programme. At ten o'clock we will be debating


life's to inevitability is, tax and death. We ask, do we have a right


not to be offended? And is easier to face death if you in God?


So Michael Fallon and Emily Thornberry are back with me. Emily


Thornberry, there has been a lot of attacks on your party's patria to


some over the last few weeks and there is another story in the papers


today about Jeremy Corbyn and the IRA. What is your message to


working-class voters who look at this stuff and say, I just don't


like it? There were negotiations going on behind the scenes and


people speaking openly. This is something which has been known for


30 years and it has been dragged up at this particular time because of


the general election. Not surprising. I understand that, and


if you judge people by who it is you spend time with, the question is do


you have to be -- do your underwear you work on the 27th of May 2007?


You were celebrating the real action of President Assad -- re-election.


I'm not going to judge you on that and I don't think people should


judge Jeremy by trying to talk to people who might be open to a


settlement in Northern Ireland. There was a little bit of a


difference. I was a Parliamentary all-party visit to Syria in 2007,


MPs have gone every year to Syria during the better times. I remember


a fact-finding visit to Syria that happened every year with MPs going


out there... Did you meet Assad while you were there? Shake his


hand? Did you celebrate his re-election? It was ten years ago,


we had a different relationship with him then. There is a huge difference


to speaking to foreign leaders, and I speak to them all the time, and


Jeremy Corbyn's open support for the IRA. You cannot go around making


this stuff up. There is an election on and people need to make decisions


on the basis of the truth. You have said I want to negotiate the future


of the Falklands, that is... It is untrue! 20 minutes ago you implied


sitting there... You cannot make this up as you go along. People need


to make decisions based on facts and information, proper information, and


it is not right for you to go around slinging dead cats the way you do.


People need to concentrate because there is a serious choice to be


made. Your excuse is Jeremy Corbyn is on some kind of journey, well


that is too great a risk for this country. In relation to Nato there


has been a change and we are clear. Can I ask you both about the word


being used again and again - landslide. Tom Watson said if things


don't change the Conservatives are on course for a Thatcher style


landslide, why do you think he said that? I suppose he may have been


distracted by the polls, but they have not been terribly reliable


until now and we have another three weeks. We will be out there putting


out the message and the truth about what Labour stand for. Michael


Fallon, are you heading for landslide do you think? It is far


too early to start predicting the result of this election. We are


going for a stronger majority... You nearly said strong and stable! Thank


you, that is all we have time for this Sunday.


We'll be back the same time next week, when our guests


will include Ukip's leader, Paul Nuttall.


Andrew's guests are first minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon, secretary of state for defence Sir Michael Fallon and shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry.

The newspapers are reviewed by BBC Scotland editor Sarah Smith, Andrew Rawnsley of The Observer and Jane Moore of The Sun.