03/12/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning.

Imagine, bear with me,

slightly strange thought,

imagine you're Theresa May.

Week going rather well,

Brexit money sorted,

serious negotiations about to start.

Then, bang, nasty and offensive

tweets from Donald Trump,

meant to be your big trade ally.

Bang, the Irish border issue rears

up, threatening to derail

the Brexit process and maybe

demolish your Commons majority.

And then, bang, again

this morning your entire

Social Mobility Commission resigns

overnight because you're doing

so little for the poor.

Yup, it's just another

ordinary Sunday morning.

The outgoing social mobility Czar

who's just left his Kremlin to come

here today, Alan Milburn,

will tell us why he quit.

Ireland's foreign minister

and Deputy Prime Minister,

Simon Coveney, will be joining us

from Cork to talk about vetoing

the Brexit talks and whether this

is really all about a united

Ireland.

Replying for the government

on a difficult morning

is Justine Greening,

the Education Secretary.

Were Mrs May's words about burning

injustices just words?

As the Tory right gets ever

more restive about how

we're leaving the EU,

I'll be talking to the bookies'

favourite to be the next

Conservative leader,

Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Plus one of the odder comparisons

I've heard for a while.

The actor Matt Smith on why

the Duke of Edinburgh,

who he plays in The Crown,

and his old character,

Doctor Who, aren't quite

as different as you'd think.

And it's getting

to that time of year.

Jazz king Gregory Porter

will sing us out.

# They know that Santa is on his way

.Mac

# They know that Santa is on his way

And reviewing the papers,

the former Leader of UKIP,

friend of Donald Trump and one

of the architects of

Brexit, Nigel Farage.

The former Labour

adviser Ayesha Hazarika.

And Kate Andrews from the Institute

of Economic Affairs.

But first the headlines

with Katherine Downes.

All four members of the board

of the government's

Social Mobility Commission have

stood down in protest

at what they say is a lack

of progress towards a "fairer

Britain".

The former Labour Minister Alan

Milburn who chairs the commission

said he had "little hope"

the current government could make

the "necessary" progress.

The government said it was making

"good progress" on social mobility

and focusing on disadvantaged areas.

Donald Trump has responded

to a guilty plea by his former

national security adviser

Michael Flynn, saying

Mr Flynn's actions as a member

of his transition team were lawful.

Mr Flynn has entered a plea deal

and agreed to co-operate

with an inquiry into alleged

collusion with Russia.

The president wrote on Twitter

that he had "nothing to hide".

Leading Brexit supporters have urged

the Prime Minister not to settle

the UK's "divorce bill"

unless the EU agrees

to a series of conditions.

The Leave Means Leave group,

says Brussels must end

the European Court of Justice's

jurisdiction over the UK.

It also wants freedom of movement

to the UK for EU citizens to stop

when Britain leaves the bloc

in March 2019.

Theresa May is to hold

more meetings next week

on the terms of the UK exit.

Children and young people in England

are to be able to access mental

health support at school or college

under government plans

to improve services.

The proposals include introducing

a four-week waiting time

for youngsters needing specialist

support and new mental health

support teams in schools.

It's hoped around one in four

schools in England will have this

provision in place by 2022.

Campaigners say the measures

are welcome, but long overdue.

Sky-watchers could catch a glimpse

of a so-called "supermoon"

when the Moon appears larger

and brighter in the sky as it moves

closer to Earth later.

The first supermoon in 70 years

was seen last month.

Astronomers say providing the skies

stay clear the most spectacular

views of what's known as the "cold

moon" will come during moonrise

today and moonset tomorrow morning.

That's all from me.

Back to you, Andrew.

as to the front pages as usual,

Theresa May has lost her social

mobility czar and the entire team,

including a former education

secretary.

She does this funny thing

with her face, Theresa May, on these

occasions. There she is again doing

her rueful look on the front page of

the Sunday Times. Theresa May

betrays families who voted for

Brexit is their story. In the Sunday

Telegraph assents on the right of

the Conservative Party that Theresa

May has to push that much harder

against the European Commission.

Tories at war over European judges.

Any headlines that have Tories and

war and European in the headlines is

just daily life. A scandal in the

front page of the Mail on Sunday and

it is about money. I am picking up

on all the Meghan Markle stories.

The Sunday Express says she will

give the economy a £500 million

boost because of the wedding. Debbie

McGee from Strictly Come Dancing on

the front page. Meghan Markle kicked

my shin in this one. Finally,

British racing dogs who are not

wanted after they finished their

racing careers are being sold for

meat in China. An horrific story if

true, let's hope it is not. Can I

start with you and the social

mobility story? Some people might

say there is not much to see here.

Alan Milburn is a Labour politician

and he was going to the end of his

time. Is this a real story?

This is

a very real and very damaging story

for Theresa May? We all remember her

words on the steps of Downing Street

about how she wanted to put social

justice at the heart of her

premiership and any party should

have social mobility at its heart at

a basic level. You want your

children to get on in life, you want

people to have a fair crack at the

whip. Britain is still very unequal

society. Your life chapters are set

by the time you are two and a half

so deep is the inequality. What is

interesting about what Alan Milburn

has said is he says the government

does not have the necessary

bandwidth to deal with these issues

because Brexit. Brexit has paralysed

the country. If you look at social

mobility, you have to look living

standards, education, and they are

things which are being ignored at

the moment by this government and

this is very damaging for Theresa

May and her government.

The

bandwidth is one of these odd

phrases, it means she can only

concentrate properly on one thing at

a time. Nigel, your thoughts.

It is

interesting, every government talks

about social mobility and none of

them have achieved anything in

decades because the gap has got

bigger. Theresa May is one of the

few people in Westminster who

generally believed giving Grammar

school provision to many more people

would close those gaps.

Grammar

schools do not close the gap.

They

certainly do. The bright kids from

poor backgrounds... It may not solve

it for everybody but it begins to

close the gaps. What I am surprised

by it she has given up on that. She

has completely dropped the grammar

schools issue.

Where have we seen

social mobility being tackled

anywhere? Most of the solutions on

social mobility has nothing to do

with the European Union. They can

build more homes and bring the cost

of rented housing down. The UK has

one of the highest cost of childcare

in the OECD. Bring that down, get

more women into work. None of this

is tackled or discuss on either

side.

Give Theresa May call when you

finish after this.

Sure start was a

very important measure, early

intervention.

It did work?

Yes and

it has been cut by this government.

Nidal, we were talking about Brexit.

There is a cartoon here and all the

rest of it. Eurosceptics demand no

more bowing to the EU. It is

interesting that the government was

elected as a pro Brexit government,

yet they find themselves

increasingly moving away from

mainstream Eurosceptics in this

country. For example agreeing to pay

up to 50 billion sterling as a

separation bill. That is something

supported by only about 10% of the

entire population.

A lot of people

would say it is a lot of money over

many years even, but if we get a

trade deal as a result of that, it

might economic in the end be worth

it.

I do not think a tariff free

access deal to the European market

is worth 50 billion sterling,

absolutely not. The problem is the

EU is being very unreasonable. At

every step of this they appear like

bullyboys. To see Donald Tusk in

Ireland the other day saying that

they can beat up everything. There

is also a feeling that we are

probably under Theresa May at the

end of March 2019 we will leave the

European Union in name but still be

stuck as part of the single market

and goodness knows what is agreed on

Ireland.

You have been very eloquent

about lavish overspending with EU

funds. I notice Nigel Farage is

going to get a £76,000...

There are

22,000 people who either received or

who are reliant on EU pensions.

And

you are one of them.

It happens to

be me they're talking about. No

mention of Neil Kinnock or

Mandelson. It is the arbitrary way

European Union behaves in terms of

money and I would be very surprised

if I get any of it.

This is your

moment on live television to say I

will stick by my principles and say

I will not accept this pension.

I am

not going to get it anyway.

But if

you did, you would not take it.

Of

course. Why should my family and

others suffer even more?

This is the

hypocrisy we see.

I have just voted

to get rid of my job. I was the

turkey that voted for Christmas.

You

hoovered up your expenses and your

salary from the EU and you railed

against it.

They are fining me by

Christmas, they are demanding 40,000

from me by Christmas.

One last thing

on Brexit, all of this proves that

when we voted to leave the EU, it is

like a leap of faith in the dark

with a blindfold on. Nobody knew

what was going to happen. It now

seems the phrase take back control

was take back control and give it to

the Irish. We are in such a mess on

this.

We have to stand up... We have

to stand up... It is failing because

the government, not because we voted

to leave...

We are moving on to the

other side of the Atlantic. You have

got the New York Times.

It is

talking about Michael Flynn, the

National Security adviser who

earlier this year was fired because

he had more communications with the

Russians and he had led the vice

president to believe. He is now

cooperating with the FBI and the

person running the special

investigation into Russia.

He has

cut a deal?

Most likely. It looks

like his co-operation might get him

of in other areas. But the

interesting thing is he would have

had more communication with the

Donald Trump transition team than

Donald Trump let on. It is an

important story, Russia is still an

important story, but it is not the

smoking gun that they want to find.

Every story like this is used to

prove that there is pollution and we

still have no evidence that is

collusion.

Stay calm on this story

and followed the details.

Stay calm

and if you are frustrated with

Donald Trump, going after him on

Russia is the wrong angle. There are

other things that can challenge him

on the left and the right.

As do

that. He will be in February.

On the

South bank there is a huge American

embassy that is being built and the

story is he comes to London in

February to open that and perhaps go

to 10 Downing Street, not a full

state visit, but a working visit.

Can I ask you something? We have had

these disgraceful tweets from him

this week, re-tweeting Britain

First.

Let's get this right. There

are 43.6 million people who followed

Donald Trump. Donald Trump follows

45 people. One of those is a

right-wing American commentator. She

re-tweeted these videos and he

picked it up from her.

He is

responsible for his actions.

He

would not have a clue who Britain

First R.

He is not that stupid. If

he does not know what he is

re-tweeting? Is he stupid?

You are

dealing with different president

here.

Was that not a disgraceful

thing to do? Those tweets were they

not themselves disgraceful? They are

stirring up hatred between people in

this country, they are fake news and

they should not have been

re-tweeted.

Was the story about Isis

throwing people off buildings fake

news? No, it was true. Do I think

they were in good taste? Not

particularly, no. But the point

is...

You are always going to defend

him.

The level of outrage from the

liberal elite in this country is out

of kilter with what happened here.

I

want to make one point.

I have not

finished yet. And the idea that that

should lead to half the Labour Party

saying he should not be allowed to

come to our country is frankly is

ridiculous. It is viewed by the

public is being ridiculous.

Donald

Trump is a racist, he is

misogynistic and Islamaphobia. He

pedals and stirs up hatred and

division. That is something you

might agree with, but that is not

what British values are in this

country. Just remember, as Joanne

Cox later dying, the scumbag who

executed her shouted at the words

Britain First. The idea that you

defend Donald Trump, it is a bit of

a joke... He is not fit to hold that

office.

I am ashamed that the president goes

about living his life in this

manager we have seen it for a long

time, he was attacking Mexicans as

rate this driver and murderers

before he was even elected. We have

to live in reality. I think a

working visit is in order. I also

don't think that people should be

banned from coming to the UK because

of unsavoury views that they hold,

as unsavoury as they may. But I

think we as the public have every

right to protest this.

You said that

Ayesha was out of touch. When you

see what's been happening in

Charlottesville, for example, and

people making fascist salutes and

things like that, do you not think

that perhaps you are getting too

close to a dark kind of politics?

Do

you know something? I think I have

done more than anybody in this

country to stop the rise of the far

right in this people. I did it by

taking those people who were going

out and voting BNP. Of course I

would condemn the extremists in

Charlottesville, but the extremists

on both sides. And it's very

important that we don't get stuck...

Nigel, you've done more to start up

division...

There are people out

there on the left in this country

who use violence to pursue their

means.

There is bad on both sides,

it is important to recognise that,

very important. I don't think we're

going to get calm consensus in this,

I suspect. And therefore we're going

to go to a completely different

story, which is in the express,

another really important story for

British people today, which is new

money in schools for children with

special needs, something which is a

genuine crisis in this country?

It

is, and hopefully we can find a

little more consensus on this. They

have managed to persuade the

government to put £300 million

towards people who are suffering

from mental illness. Obviously, a

cause to as it is an number

uplifting story. I am a little bit

upset that one has to go to the

Royals in order to make the case for

this thing I think there needs to be

a sweeping look at health care

reform. But obviously, wonderful for

the children who will benefit.

This

is one of those stories where we

will be talking later onto just in

greening, so we will get even more

facts as they come. Thank you very

much indeed all of you.

Now, as we've been hearing,

Alan Milburn, former

Labour Cabinet Minister and,

until this morning, Chairman

of the Government's Social Mobility

Commission has resigned,

taking all three of his fellow

commissioners with him.

A little earlier I spoke

to Mr Milburn and began

by asking him why he'd quit.

For the last ten years or so,

in various social mobility roles,

I've served a Labour Prime Minister,

a coalition Prime Minister,

and now a Conservative one.

I've done so because I care

deeply about the issue,

and I believe that it matters

profoundly to the country.

I've reached the conclusion, sadly,

that with the current government,

there is little if any hope

of progress being made

towards the fairer Britain

that the Prime Minister

has talked about.

The government, probably

for understandable reasons,

is focused on Brexit and seems

to lack the bandwidth to be able

to translate the rhetoric of healing

social division and provoking social

justice, into reality.

So, I'm afraid, I've reached

the conclusion that there's only

so long that you can go

on pushing water uphill.

So, these are areas of desperate

deprivation around the country

where people are stuck, and angry.

Theresa May has only had 18

months as prime minister.

She came in saying that she would

correct burning injustices -

are you saying that she is simply

unable to do that?

No, look, the Prime Minister I've

got no doubt has a personal

commitment to social justice.

She has championed quite

unfashionable causes in her time -

modern slavery, for example.

But what is lacking here

is meaningful political action

to translate very good

words into deeds.

In the end, what counts in politics

is not what you talk

about, it's what you do.

And I'm afraid the divisions

in Britain are becoming wider,

they're becoming wider economically,

socially and geographically.

So, to be specific, you had

ideas, you had proposals,

places to spend money,

and you couldn't get any

traction in government,

no-one was listening to you?

Well, it's not that

no-one was listening.

Justine Greening, who will be

on your programme later today,

for example, is a champion

for the cause, and I know what it

wanted to secure my reappointment

as chair of the commission.

She failed in doing so,

and I've decided I'm not

going to reapply for the job,

and frankly, neither are the other

three commissioners.

So, the issue here

is not about the words.

It's easy to talk the language

of social justice and

healing social division -

what counts is whether or not that

is being translated into practice.

And look, the Chancellor

in his budget just a week or so ago

confirmed that we're going to have

20 years of real

earnings being frozen.

That's quite unprecedented.

We're not making the progress

that we should to address these deep

divides in the labour market,

the housing market or indeed

in our education system.

Some people will say,

no surprise here, here

is a former Labour minister,

never a fan of the Tories,

working under a Tory prime minister.

He's not been reappointed,

and he's going and he's

kicking her as he goes out the door.

Yes, of course, people

will say that sort of thing.

But frankly, it's a bit pathetic.

I've worked for Labour, coalition,

Conservative prime ministers.

The commission is cross-party,

it's nonpartisan, it's

entirely independent.

We've tried to change

the terms of the political

debate in the country,

and I think we have.

What is needed, however,

is really clear leadership

to translate perfectly good words

into actions that will

make a difference.

And the Prime Minister is not

providing that leadership?

At the moment, not.

Can I ask you about Jeremy

Corbyn, another leader?

Because here is somebody who has

come up with much stronger proposals

in some of these areas

than the Blair years offered us.

He has got very strong proposals

on spending money on wages,

on social mobility,

on education, on welfare.

Isn't he the answer?

I don't think he is

the answer, personally.

I think at the moment,

our politics are deeply polarised.

I think they're polarised

between on the one hand,

the vision of a more nationalist

Britain, with Brexit taking place,

and on the other hand,

you've got a vision of a rather

statist Britain under Mr Corbyn.

You sound a little bit

like a centrist dad at this point -

are you about to launch

the centrist dad's party?

Absolutely not.

Can I turn to one other area around

this, which is the effects of not

doing enough for these people,

not doing enough for the areas

of social deprivation?

You've said there is a lot

of anger in the country -

what is ignoring this issue,

continuing to ignore

this issue, going to do

to our politics generally?

I think it's been deeply corrosive

of our cohesion as a nation,

that we've got this growing sense

of becoming an us and them society.

Just last week, the commission

produced a report highlighting

the 65 parts of the country that

have got the worst social mobility

prospects for decent jobs,

good schooling, getting

on the housing ladder.

Of those 65 areas, only five voted

to remain in the European Union

in the referendum last year.

So, there is a burning sense

of social resentment and political

alienation in the country.

The social divides, unfortunately,

are now being paralleled

by a political polarisation

in the country.

That isn't good for our sense

of being a United Kingdom rather

than an ever more divided one.

And for the time being,

those people who have been cut out

of the fairer society,

have been pushed to one side,

are still cut out, still pushed out?

Yes.

And it's very easy if

you are anti-Brexit...

I think it's not a great idea

to go ahead with Brexit,

I voted to remain.

It's very easy to rail

against the people in those

areas who voted for it.

What we've got to do is understand

the reasons that people voted

as they did for this.

It's fine to be tough on Brexit,

but you've got to be tough

on the causes of Brexit as well.

And that means that you've got

to deal with these issues of these

areas that are being left behind

economically and socially.

And I'm afraid that isn't happening

with great enough ambition, great

enough scale and great enough pace.

Alan Milburn, thanks for coming

in and talking to us.

And so to the weather.

A raw, raw start to December.

A sprinkling of sparkly stuff next?

Let's hope so.

Over to Darren Bett.

Over to Darren Bett.

And drizzle is getting pushed

southwards. A little bit of sunshine

coming through. Always a bit of

struggle, though, in the south-east.

At least it is not as cold here as

it was yesterday. Further north,

despite the sunshine, those numbers

a lower than yesterday. Northern

Ireland staying a bit dull and damp.

The rain and drizzle pushes back

into Scotland and western parts of

England and Wales overnight. Some

clearer skies ahead of that, meaning

it could turn rather chilly tonight.

At least, a better chance of seeing

that supermoon. There will be some

mist and fog around overnight, which

will lift early tomorrow morning

just some weak winter sunshine

coming through tomorrow, with milder

air. However, around the middle part

of the week, the winds get really

noisy. Gales are unlikely and there

will be some heavy rain and some

localised flooding possible. The

wind direction changes and it gets

very much colder very quickly by the

end of the week checkup some wintry

showers are possible, Andrew, our

air is coming at us from the Arctic.

Parade!

Right, picking up on quite

a few of those issues,

our next guest is the Conservative

MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

He joins us from Somerset.

Welcome to the

Welcome to the programme. Can I ask

you about this letter that you have

signed, going to the Prime Minister?

One thing it says is that not a

penny must be paid to the EU unless

we have a roaming trade agreement

with no tariffs agreed by March 2018

- is that a misprint?

It's very

important to yes, it is March 2000

and 19th, not 2018, obviously. But

it is very important that we do not

hand over a great deal of money

unless we have an agreement. The

risk is that we pay the money from

the day we leave, and that reduces

our negotiating cloud to get the

trade deal finalised if it has not

been done before March 2019, and

that seems to be an obvious point.

And you want the deal to me that we

can start to do free-trade deals

with the rest of the world, and we

have no European Court of Justice

jurisdiction whatsoever during those

two years?

Well, the question is

whether we remain in the European

Union for an extra period, to have

the transition, or whether we've

left in March 2019. If we remain

under the European Court of Justice,

and we are making large obligatory

payments to the EU budget, there is

no difference on the 30th of March

to the 29th of March. So it is a

question we have actually left in

Cannock or are de facto still within

the European Union, but without any

of the current protections that we

have.

Can I be clear, under your

plan, as it were, because there is

also no freedom of movement after

March 2019, in effect there is no

transitional period at all, it has

happened. No easy Jay, no money, we

are out and that's it?

You describe

it beautifully, we will actually

have left in March 2019. Just a

moment... The Prime Minister used to

refer very carefully to lower

reimplementation period. And that

meant that we had left in 2019 but

we were implementing the

consequences of leaving. Now,

everyone seems to be talking about

transition, which means

transitioning from being within the

European Union to out of the

European Union, and that delays our

departure for two years. It was

interesting listening to Mr Milburn

earlier pointing out that the

poorest areas of the country voted

to leave. We need to deliver the

benefits of living to the poorest in

our nation, because otherwise they

will feel deeply let down, and that

includes dealing with freedom of

movement and it includes getting

free-trade deals so that we can

lower the cost of food, clothing and

footwear.

Let me ask you about the

Irish border, which is another big

issue which has arisen recently. We

have had lots of comments about it,

including from Peter Robinson of the

DUP, who is essential is suggesting

that the Irish government are using

this to try to achieve a united

Ireland by stealth - do you agree

with him?

Well, Irish politics are

quite complicated at the moment, as

you know, because there is a vote of

no confidence in the Deputy Prime

Minister in Ireland, and I think the

Irish border has become a matter of

Irish immediate political concern in

the run-up to a potential general

election, and the strength of Sinn

Fein and the Prime Minister of

Ireland's concern about that.

Whether I would go as far as to say

it is an effort to unify the

Republic and Northern Ireland by

stealth, I don't know. But I would

say very clearly, speaking from

Somerset, that Northern Ireland is

as much a part of the United Kingdom

as Somerset is, as Conservatives and

unionists take that very seriously.

It is at the core of what we believe

about our nation and I support the

DUP thoroughly, as do many

Conservatives if not most, with

regard to any attempts to take

Northern Ireland out of the United

Kingdom.

Isn't the truth therefore

that if we leave without an

agreement, there has to be a hard

border between Northern Ireland and

the Republic of Ireland, because

that is the EU border as well as the

Irish Republic border?

No, that is not the case. The head

of HMRC said there is no need to

have a border. If the EU want a

border, that would be a matter for

them, but they do not have to do it,

and it is a matter of political

choice. You have to say to the Irish

government, do you want to make that

political choice to have a border?

The British Government do not want

that.

You spent time with Steve

Bannon, and economic nationalists,

and many people think he is a white

supremacist. What were you doing

talking to him?

I talk to any number

of people whose political views I do

not share or fully endorse. I met

the previous American ambassador at

a reception at his own embassy and

he was a left-wing Barack Obama

supporter. Inevitably one meets

other politicians and that does not

mean I agree or endorse everything

they say. But Steve Bannon was the

chief of staff to President Trump

and is a senior figure within the

Republican Party. I think a

convivial is misleading. He was

interesting to meet and he is very

well informed.

Would you like to see

President Trump come here in

February?

Mr Trump is the leader of

our closest and most important ally.

We have many interests in common in

all sorts of areas, not least of

defence. It is overwhelmingly in the

British interest to have a friendly

relationship with the leader of the

free world. That is true who ever

the president happens to be and it

is the duty of the British Prime

Minister to that that happens. Tony

Blair was very good at that as Prime

Minister and he got on with a

right-wing American president.

You

are a civilised man, when you saw

those re-tweets of that racist,

fascist group, Britain First, by the

president of the United States, did

you not think he is a man crossing a

really important boundary in

civilised discourse?

Here I say it,

although I am on Twitter, I think it

is a fundamentally trivial medium

and it is not worth spending so much

time fussing about it. He inevitably

or people inevitably spend too much

time on such an unimportant

time on such an unimportant medium.

"The key to the UK's

future lies in Dublin,"

the words of EU Council President

Donald Tusk this week.

So might the Irish border problem

derail the Brexit process?

Let's ask the Tanaiste,

Ireland's Deputy Prime Minister

and Foreign Minister,

Simon Coveney.

He joins me now from Cork.

Can I ask you first, Donald Tusk has

given new in effect a veto over

these Brexit talks. Will you use it?

Are you prepared to use it?

We

certainly do not want to be vetoing

anything. The Irish government like

the British Government wants to move

the Brexit process onto phase two.

We want to provide the kind of

certainty that many businesses are

calling for in Britain, Ireland and

in the European Union. There is no

desire in Ireland to delay this

process. But at the same time we

have a responsibility as a

government to represent the

interests of the island of Ireland,

north and south. Next year will be

the 20th anniversary of the Good

Friday Agreement, which is the basis

for the peace process and relations

between Britain and Ireland on the

island. We believe that as an

island, an island is vulnerable and

exposed to a potential bad outcome

from Brexit. That is why we are

looking for more progress than we

have in terms of understanding how

the border issue is in particular

the North-South co-operation that

has created a hugely positive thing.

Instead of the border dividing

people like it has in the past, it

brings people together now. Farmers

trade across it. Goods and services

and people move freely.

Can I does

jumping? A lot of people in the

North now believe that having an

open border and therefore Northern

Ireland having to be much closer to

the single market and the customs

union and creating an effect and all

Ireland economy with a watery border

between that and the rest of the UK

is the first stage to a united

Ireland and you have a political

agenda. You want to achieve Irish

unity by economics and that is what

this is all about.

That is simply

not true. Some of your previous

speakers' description of what is

happening in Ireland is also not

true. We did have difficult

political week and the deputy

minister did resign. There is no

Sinn Fein influence on the

government here in terms of what we

are trying to do. This is simply the

Irish government sticking to a

consistent position that we have had

for months. Perhaps the only thing

that has changed is the

understanding that others have, that

Ireland is very determined to

actually hold its position because

we feel we have an obligation to

ensure that the border issues are a

significant factor in terms of the

considerations around Brexit right

now. We cannot allow some kind of

collateral damage or unintended

consequence Brexit to have the

re-creation of a border in Ireland.

I have been careful to avoid the

Green versus Orange debate in the

context of the debate here. We are

trying to protect the status quo

through Brexit. It is an important

status quo on the island that keeps

people peacefully engaged.

You as

the Deputy Prime Minister will be

engaged in the summit coming up

quite soon on the Brexit

negotiations. You may have seen this

morning that Theresa May has been

given a lot of red lines to take

with her and they require things

like a free-trade deal without

tariffs to be agreed by March 2019,

and that being the basis of any

money being passed over, the UK

having the freedom to make and

implement trade deals during the

transition period. The European

Court must not have any jurisdiction

whatsoever from March 2019, and so

forth. Is that possible? If Theresa

May arrives with that kind of list,

what will happen to her?

I am not

going to comment on the demand that

are being made of the British Prime

Minister by her own party. That is

not a matter for me to comment on. I

would like to comment on a published

report this week from the House of

Commons on Brexit. Actually in that

report they agree with the Irish

government's position, that there is

a need for more clarity in the

context of the border. They do not

see how it is compatible that the

United Kingdom as a whole, including

Northern Ireland, leaving the

customs union and the single market

actually works with the ambition to

prevent a border. The House of

Commons committee is actually making

the same argument that we are making

as a government which hopefully

reassures people that the Irish

government is not being unreasonable

here. We are simply asking questions

that need more credible answers

before we can allow this process to

move onto phase two.

What does the

British Government have to do to

satisfy you? If this were drafting

forms of words, they talk about the

technological solution that could do

it, too allowed the negotiations to

move to the next phase, or do you

want absolute clarity about how the

government wants to resolve this?

Just to reassure people, we are not

looking far. We have never asked for

the full detail of the border

solution in phase one. We are

looking for the parameters within

which we can be more confident that

the solution can be found within

phase two. That is not an

unreasonable ask. What we are saying

is our preference, and our

preference has always been because

it helps to deal with the politics

of unionism, we would like to see a

solution that solves the border

issues that involves all of the

United Kingdom acting as one. We

also have to say if that is not

possible, of course we need to

recognise, both governments need to

recognise, that Northern Ireland has

unique challenges and all parties in

Northern Ireland need to be listened

to, not just one. We need to

maintain and support peace and

harmony on the island which so many

people have worked so hard to create

over the last two decades.

Thank you

very much indeed for joining us.

Thank you very much

indeed for joining us.

Matt Smith made his name

as the eleventh Timelord

in Dr Who and is now starring

as the Duke of Edinburgh

in The Crown.

The Netflix series has been highly

praised but the next season

is already making headlines

for its portrayal of

the Queen's marriage.

The drama has been criticised

for speculating on what troubles

might have arisen between the royal

couple in the 1950s and 60s.

When I caught up with Matt,

I asked him about that criticism

and whether some of the conjecture

about Prince Philip

was needlessly intrusive.

The world has changed,

society in Britain has changed.

You married a wild spirit.

Trying to tame them is no use.

This restlessness of yours,

it has to be a thing of the past.

The monarchy is too fragile,

you keep telling yourself.

One more scandal, one more

national embarrassment

and it would all be over.

Well, no, I don't think

it is gratuitous, I don't

think it is salacious.

As a dramatist I think

it is your responsibility

and I think Peter has done it very

well to shine a light on the ugly

truth of characters and I think

it is good to put the characters

in uncomfortable situations.

And we are ultimately

telling a story.

It is a fictionalised version

of true events that we have kind

of surmised I suppose.

But one of the virtues of the show

for me is that I have learnt quite

a lot about British history,

British politics.

I learned a lot about the emotional

make-up of the family that I thought

I knew but I didn't.

Bullied children are scarred

for life and scarred children

make destroyed adults.

You and I had an agreement,

a deal that ensured there would be

some level of equality between us

in the marriage.

We have just had the 70th

anniversary and if you look at them

in those photos I think they appear

to make each other laugh still

and they look like there is a degree

of good humour amongst them.

So it is important that, yes,

we touched upon a very difficult

time in their marriage but history

tells us that they have endured

and they have got through it.

It turned out well.

Let me ask you a little bit more

about the Duke himself.

Very interesting the way you played

him because he is slightly scary,

you are slightly scary.

There is a brusqeness

and unpredictability there.

He is absolutely alpha male.

Yes.

And yet there is always

a vulnerability in the face.

How do you do that?

Well, thank you very much.

I take that as a compliment.

I don't know, I think there are

a lot of preconceptions about him.

You have met him, I haven't.

I think there are a lot

of preconceptions about Philip.

I love his alpha maleness,

that was something I was

compelled by and drawn to.

I read the first season

and I thought actually, yeah,

I wouldn't want to kneel to my wife.

I wouldn't want to do that.

And here is a man who was at

the forefront of the Navy,

he had great sporting prowess.

And everything is taken away.

Taken away.

Including his name.

Including his name.

So he is an angry man in many ways.

Well, he's conflicted.

He is conflicted between -

this is how I read it -

a sense of duty to his wife,

a sense of duty to himself as a man

and a sense of duty to his country

and his job and his responsibility

as a member of the Royal family.

You put all those things together

and you have got a very

interesting character.

One of the things that has been

thrown against him which this series

rather refutes in a way,

that he was in some

sense a cold father,

particularly to Prince Charles.

Actually the relationship is much

more complicated and at times much

more affectionate perhaps

in the caricature.

I think so.

From the research I did

he was actually quite a warm father.

As this season goes on,

we have seen episode nine,

and there is an episode

about Gordonstoun and he tried

to parent his child in a certain

way and made mistakes.

I think he probably made a mistake

sending him to Gordonstoun.

He probably should

have sent him to Eton.

Where it made Philip,

I think it broke Charles.

It is my decision that Charles

goes to Gordonstoun.

Not now.

And that would be fine

for all our other children,

but Charles is the future

of the Crown and in the name

of the Crown and as his mother

I have decided to take him out

of Gordonstoun and bring him home to

Eton, to Windsor, where he belongs.

We can't always fall

back on the Crown.

Yes, I can and I will.

Then you would do well to remember

the promises you made to me

and the consequence those might have

on breaking the Crown.

He is very at the forefront

of the things.

Certainly in the 1950s and 60s.

It is very interesting looking

at what he is saying

about British commerce,

productivity, new

inventions, technology.

Yes, he was a great moderniser,

he was very interested in scientific

modification and that turned out

to be a great passion of his.

Actually I think he has done a great

service to the Royal family

because he was trying to bring it

out of the traditions that it was

rooted in and kind of stuck in.

Again I saw a couple of weeks ago

in the paper he is 96

and he is on the carriage and he has

got his mates in it with him

on their anniversary

and he is still catching life.

A really bizarre comparison to a lot

of people for a Duke

of Edinburgh and Doctor Who.

Both really interested

in technology, going around

the world with a woman

at their side.

You are the first person

to have raised that with me

but it is something that I have

thought and raised a lot

to other people and I am

convinced essentially

they are both aliens really.

What I mean by that is they are

aliens in their own world.

So Philip was the outsider

of the family, he came in,

he wasn't really accepted,

he wasn't liked, he did

things his own way.

He has sort of done what he wants,

where he wants, how he wants.

He didn't really ask permission

and his wife is the Queen.

There is something about that that

I found very charming.

Similarly, Doctor Who is the same.

And they both wore great clobber.

The clothes in this are amazing.

I wonder what the Duke of Edinburgh

would make of your jumper.

He would tut at my jumper I think.

He would raise his eyebrows.

I don't think he would be impressed.

Thank you very much.

And you can see the new series

of The Crown on Netflix

from the 8th of December.

Justine Greening, the Education

Secretary, joins me.

How big a blow has it been to lose

the entire social mobility

commission overnight?

Alan Milburn

and I both care deeply about social

equality.

He said that and he said

that you wanted to keep him on - is

that true?

I'm not going to get into

the discussions that we have had

inside government said he has done a

job, but is time had come to an end

and I think it is about getting some

fresh blood into the commission.

Hold on - Gillian Shephard, a former

Conservative Education Secretary...

We were already doing a recruitment

or says, actually, for a new

commissioners. What I do not agree

with Alan about is his

characterisation about the

government. Actually what we're

doing is a transformational series

of policies across government on

equality...

Sorry, the four people

that you have put into place to

oversee that say nothing is

happening, you are talking the talk

but you are not walking the walk -

surely people are going to believe

them?

Well, I absolutely don't agree

with them. When you look at what

we're doing in my own area, we have

set up opportunity areas inside and

outside of schools in communities to

improve educational results. If you

look at school standards overall,

they're continuing to rise. 1.9

billion more children in great

primary and secondary schools who

would not have been before. Going

beyond that which the technical

education reforms that we're

bringing forward, and today

announcements about mental health to

remove some of the barriers which

hold people back.

But as a

politician, don't you look at this

country and at those areas of

extreme deprivation and think

something really bad is going wrong

here? The Joseph Rowntree foundation

tomorrow are going to say that in

terms of poverty, for pensioners and

for children, things have got worse

in a way which has not happened for

20 years. There is a slow but real

crisis in this country?

I think

there is a real problem, Britain is

not a country where we have equality

of opportunity. Where you grow up

affects your future far too much,

your circumstances affect your

future far too much. This is a

generational challenge. But

actually, when you look at the

results of what we've achieved...

What are we seeing happening? We are

seeing standards in our schools

rise. Critically, we are seeing the

attainment gap in schools narrowing.

This is the gap in results between

disadvantage children and their

better off Piers. We have got

refunds in education which will mean

for the half of our young people who

do not go to university, they will

get every bit as world-class an

education offered to them post-16.

We are mobilising British business

to make sure that they're providing

the opportunities for young people

on the doorstep. And of course, my

attitude on all of this is that...

You certainly talked the talk, it

seems that out there it is not

working?

I'm saying that we are

delivering up, actually. I'm saying

we're making sure we're doing it in

the places where it needs to happen

and it is most important.

I promise

I will come onto schools in a

moment. But first I want to ask you

about the other big story of the

day, which is these new red lines on

Brexit. The Defence Secretary Dale

to be agreed before March 2019,

before any money whatsoever is paid

over, no jurisdiction from the

European Court of Justice during a

transitional period, free movement

to end in March 2019 - to some

people this looks like a very tough

series of new demands just before an

absolutely critical summit to do you

think this is helpful to the Prime

Minister?

I think everybody needs to

get behind the Prime Minister, she

has got an immensely challenging job

going to the EU and negotiating the

terms by which we will leave the

European Union. It's very important

that we speak with one voice. But I

think the Cabinet has set our

negotiating standards with the Prime

Minister and she will go and try and

get the best possible deal. I think

there is an understandable debate in

our country about how to go about

getting the best deal. This is a

historic moment for Britain, as we

leave the European Union. And we

should expect that debate to

continue. It is an incredibly

complicated negotiation. But the

Prime Minister will go to Brussels

with a clear negotiating mandate. We

need to make sure she has some

flexibility around it as well.

Sub

not try and box her into much?

Well,

we are leaving the EU, and that

means the destination is clear - we

will be outside of the European

Union. Outside the customs union,

outside the single market, outside

the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

That

goes for Northern Ireland as well?

Because the Irish border issue is a

very, very important one. Is it the

case that we have to have a deal

with the EU to ensure that there is

no hard border between Northern

Ireland and the republic?

This is a

really important area. We have been

very clear idea indeed it was

interesting to listen to Simon

Coveney, the Irish foreign minister.

I don't think there is actually any

difference between what the

government of Ireland and the

government of the United Kingdom

want. So, that is a good place to be

in. What we now need to do is to set

about how we can make sure that we

broadly keep, as he said, the status

quo in terms of what people and

businesses experience everyday. But

I think there is a real will to make

sure that we work through that.

I

just want to nail this bit down. The

government's own white paper in

Northern Ireland makes it absolutely

clear that if we don't get the deal

with the EU, there will have to be a

hard border - which would be

disastrous. In terms of the Irish

border, no deal is a very bad

outcome.

We want to reach a deal, of

course, so does the Irish

government. I think in the whole of

the EU negotiation, nothing will

quite be agreed until everything is

finally tied down. The Irish border

is an incredibly important element

of this. But even when we have got

that resolves, there will be further

areas where we reach very tricky

questions of how we manage to make

sure we make things work when we are

leaving the EU, when we are outside.

And so I think we should expect a

continued series of questions to

arise, but that's the whole point.

We need to go through a negotiation,

find settlements to these areas, and

then hopefully make sure we ever

meant the decision people took in

June last year.

Let's turn to your

mental health announcement - £300

million, is that new money?

It is,

and that's important. When we go

back to some of the issues that

we've just been talking about with

social mobility, we know that some

of the various young people face are

often when they have mental health

challenges.

So, this is completely

new money? We talked often about

structures in abstract terms - if I

am a parent with a child at school

who has mental health issues, or I

am a child at school who has mental

health issues, what will I notice

changing?

First of all, it is fair

to say there is a huge amount of

work which schools already do, but

what you will see is more structure

in those relationships, and more

provision. First of all, a senior

designated lead in every school on

mental health, so young people

really knowing where they can go to

to get help. And that lead person in

that school getting more support

from mental health support teams...

More clarity, really?

More support

that they can draw down on when they

want to take preventative action to

help young people earlier. And of

course more training in schools as

part of that for those people

playing the lead role.

Do you accept

there is a real problem in this

country for special educational

needs children and there is almost a

60% rise in parents taking their

children out of school and schooling

them at home, and at the same time

more and more of those parents are

taking their local authority to

court to get what they require from

the school. This does not sound like

a system that's working?

Well, we've

actually changed the system,

Andrew... Before, there was a very

narrow assessment of a child's needs

in relation to whether they were

special educational needs. We have

now broadened it out, so you look at

their care needs but also their

health care needs as well. Three

quarters of parents, and indeed

young people affected by our

changes, say that they think it is

much, much better. There is

variability in delivery of that

across the country, and that's why

last week we announced a further £45

million for local authorities. But

overall we are moving in the right

direction, and the final point of

this really is that they extend now

up to the age of 25. Before, there

was provision for young people but

it finish at 18. We've now extended

that into adulthood.

Moving onto

another big story. Is it OK to watch

pawn at work?

Well... There are

laws. I think most people would say

it wasn't acceptable.

Was not

acceptable... Do you fear that there

is a police vendetta going on

against one of your colleagues,

which is more about getting this

person, rogue police officers who

have left work and are going for a

senior politician because there is a

personal vendetta?

There are two

parts of this. One is the Cabinet

Office review into the behaviour of

Damian Green. The second is any

steps taken into what would seem to

be a breach of police

professionalism regarding privacy.

So I think there's two parts,

neither of them are things which I

should step into. But I think is

important that we have high

standards in public life.

Speaking

of high standards in public life,

would to see President Trump come

here in February?

Well, I don't

think tweets over the past week have

helped to make any such visit a

positive one. I think many people...

You would be offended by them?

Well,

I think he was wrong to make those

tweets and I think the Britain First

group is beyond the pale.

Justine

Greening, thank you very much for

talking to us.

Coming up here later: the Sunday

Politics with Sarah Smith.

She'll be joined by the former

Conservative leader Michael Howard

and Labour's International Trade

Spokesman Barry Gardiner,

expanding on his party's

position on Brexit.

That's 11 o'clock here on BBC One.

That's just about all for this week.

I'll be back next Sunday,

but we leave you with

the Grammy-winning jazz sensation

Gregory Porter, and this from his

new album Nat King Cole & Me.

It's The Christmas Song.

Goodbye.

# Chestnuts roasting on an open fire

# Jack Frost nipping at your nose

# Yuletide carols

being sung by a choir

# And folks dressed up like Eskimos

# Everybody knows a turkey

and some mistletoe

# Help to make the season bright

# Tiny tots, with

their eyes all aglow

# Will find it hard to sleep tonight

# They know that Santa's on his way

# He's bringing lots of toys

and goodies on his sleigh

# And every mother's

child is gonna spy

# To see if reindeer

really know how to fly

# And so now I'm offering

this simple phrase

# To kids from one to ninety-two

# Although it's been said

many times, many ways

# Merry Christmas to you

# Merry Christmas to you