Sir Michael Fallon The Andrew Marr Show

Now Sir Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary, has been used by the

prime list as her faithful attack dog. I think it is fair to say he is

not a massive fan of Jeremy Corbyn but he has plenty of questions to

answer about the state of the Armed Forces under the Conservatives.

In 2015 the Conservatives made a solemn promise about the size

of the Armed Forces, can you remind us of the promise?

We said we would build the army up to 82000 by 2020.

What is the size of the Armed Forces?

We said we would build up forces, including reserves

The quote was, we will maintain the size of the regular armed

services and not reduce the army to below 82000 and the current

figure is 79,000, so you have broken that promise.

We said we would do it over the parliament

Increasing the size of the Army up to 2020,

We have recruitment campaigns, increasing the size of the Navy,

the size of the Royal Air Force and we are determined to improve

the offer we make to service men and women to attract the best

At the moment recruitment is going badly and you are not

getting enough into the army, you were meant to get 9500 in this

year and it is 6000, you are going backwards.

We have several years before we reach our target

but we are spending more on the Armed Forces.

The budget goes up every year and we are giving them

You said I don't accept those figures.

The figures, the target was 9580 to join last year and the figure

That is why top brass are worried about you and the army under you.

We cannot force people to join, we do not have conscription,

the Army has to compete with other sectors.

It was a promise over the parliament and we are only two

years into the parliament and we are spending money

on recruiting and giving the Armed Forces equipment they need.

You have seen aircraft carriers being built,

we are buying new aircraft, and investing in

You said you will increase defence spending by 0.5% above inflation.

That costs roughly over the five years of the new parliament added

to the two years of the last parliament giving the forces roughly

?1 billion more than if we had simply met the 2% target.

The money comes from the growing economy and it was a commitment

we made, choice to spend more on the health service

and defence and we have reduce spending in other areas.

So this is an underfunded commitment, you are

The money has to come from somewhere.

Borrowing is slowly going to be reduced but it comes from a growing

economy is the real answer, because we are running

the economy efficiently and because the economy is growing,

more people in work, more revenue coming in,

and we can make choices, not wild spending and borrowing

promises like Labour but to spend more on the NHS and defence.

According to the Defence Select Committee and Times newspaper

there is a black hole in your equipment budget

We are planning the biggest equipment programme in generations.

New aircraft carriers, frigates, maritime patrol aircraft,

Part of the cost has to come from efficiency savings,

getting rid for example of land, barracks, buildings we do not need,

being more efficient in the way we work.

7.3 billion over the 10-year period, over the five-year period,

I'm sorry, of efficiency savings on top of savings already made

which means if you have airfields you do not need you shut them down.

We have 60 airfields, we do not need 60.

You have to be more efficient as a large organisation

It is absolutely right to invest in that programme we have

to reinvest efficiency savings we make.

The big change is we keep all the efficiency savings.

The Treasury does not take them back.

You have not persuaded your top brass who wrote a letter

It says that your statements about the defence budget have been

disingenuous quoting irrelevant financial statistics and they say,

the government boasts of spending 2% of GDP on defence,

widely criticised as a deception and the Armed Forces are having

to seek damaging savings at a time when combat operations

The 2% is not our figure, it is the Nato figure.

It is the way you have netted a or criticising. -- you have met it they

are criticising. The Secretary General of Nato

was in London this week seeing myself on the Prime Minister

and he confirmed publicly according to the Nato definitions,

we are meeting 2%, almost 2.2%. It is other countries that are not

spending up to the 2% and he confirmed our spending

is defined according These are former chiefs

of defence staff. Have you ever met somebody covered

in brass, a former defence chief They are passionate about defence

and so am I and I am proud It was 35 billion last year

and 36 billion this year and will go up to 40 billion and we will invest

the biggest equipment programme the Armed Forces have seen

in generations and to do that we have to be more efficient

about the way we work. What this government has not

invested in is defences You did not give the NHS the proper

money to stop this cyber attack In the security review over a year

and a few months ago we identified cyber threats as one of the three

principal threats and set aside ?1.9 billion to protect us better

against cyber and a chunk of that We are spending around ?50 million

on the NHS cyber systems to improve security and have encouraged NHS

trusts to reduce exposure Less than 5% of the trusts

use that system. There is money available

to strengthen these systems. You did not pay for them

to strengthen that system It was an old system

we did not want them to use. We warned them and we warned them

again in the spring. It is the fault of the trusts, not

the government, is that what you are saying?

We all have to work about this, the NHS wasn't

The same attacks were applied to Nissan and other areas

We are spending money on strengthening the cyber defence

Is it the case the nuclear, Trident submarines are using Windows XP?

We never comment on different systems for reasons

Vanguard submarines, I can absolutely assure you are safe

and operate in isolation when out on patrol.

I have complete confidence in the nuclear deterrent.

There is no possibility of a malware attack against the military?

I can assure you the nuclear deterrent is protected.

You used a strange phrase when you said in certain

circumstances you thought we would use first strike

The key to the nuclear deterrent is to leave uncertainty in the mind

of any potential adversary, if he is looking at a country

to attack, as to what response he can expect, to leave ambiguity

in the mind of your enemy and that is why we never rule out

whether we would apply first strike or not.

You can imagine using nuclear weapons before anybody else?

The job of the nuclear weapons is to deter and has done that

successfully over 50 years since we have had

You have been critical of Labour on the nuclear issue and defence.

They might say that the problem with your side is wanting to talk

first and bomb later but you always want to bomb first and talk later.

Is there a single war since the Second World War

When we voted on the Iraq War, we were under

I voted for it, like a lot of MPs, because we were told

there were weapons of mass destruction and it

I regret voting for it on the basis there were weapons

I regret voting for it on the basis there weren't weapons

We were dealing with a dictator who invaded other countries and were

The problem with Labour's approaches they are now saying

Emily Thornberry suggested they might negotiate over

You were in favour of using force in Libya.

The Foreign Select Committee report on what happened in Libya

after the war you were keen on, it resulted in, it says, economic

collapse, intertribal warfare, humanitarian and migrant crises,

human rights violations and the spread of the Gadaffi regime

In short it was a total disaster and you voted for it.

The reason was to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe

where an entire city was potentially going to be wiped out.

That is why we have the intervention.

You are right, when you intervene, we need to learn the lessons

of these conflicts, there needs to be a proper plan

for stabilisation, I have been working with others

That we stabilise these areas and bring in security after the war

is over to ensure the Sunni have a proper stake

You have launched a new council housing policy and there are two

The money is coming from the 1.4 billion earmarked for capital

expenditure from the Autumn Statement.

It is not new money but the amount of money for each council

will depend on deals struck with Manchester, Birmingham,

to get more social housing built in these areas of a high enough

It is an attractive policy that will give people an alternative

to waiting and waiting to get into a council house or flat.

You and Emily Thornberry are coming back in a little while.