12/06/2016 The Papers


12/06/2016

A lively, informed and in-depth conversation about the Sunday papers.


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BBC Simon McCoy if you like. I'm giving up! -- you can tweak. I might

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need a poncho later, because it is starting to bucket it down here.

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Right now on BBC News, time for the papers.

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Hello, and welcome to our Sunday morning edition of The Papers.

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With me are Josie Cox, reporter for the Wall Street Journal,

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and David Wooding, Political Editor for The Sun on Sunday.

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Very warm welcome to you both. Let's take you through the front pages as

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we have them in so far. The Sun on Sunday leads

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on the violence that broke out amongst fans

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after England's first game. The Telegraph's front

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page has the same story, alongside a picture of the Queen's

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90th birthday celebrations. The Mail On Sunday also leads

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with the referendum. It has the Archbishop

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of Canterbury's announcement that The Observer carries a warning

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from David Cameron that a vote to leave the EU could mean an end

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to increases in the state pension and ring-fenced spending

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levels for the NHS. Well, those are the front pages.

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Let's begin. The Sun on Sunday, they kick-off with a front page that has

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a picture of a bloodied English fan in Marseille, but also Wayne Rooney

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obviously because of the Russian equalising goal to make it 1-1. But

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much more seriously, the violence that erupted in Marseille. The Word

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second, for the result and the off field antics. -- the word second. It

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hones in on the fact that it was after the second goal that the

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Russians appeared to be invading the English fans, that is where it all

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kicked off after the game. Yet again, a big tournament has been

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marred by violence, it is a great shame that the English fans are in

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the middle of it. It looks from what we are hearing from people on the

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ground that Russian ultras were involved, attacking people with iron

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bars, there are some horrific reports. It is a shame that England

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are in doubt when we are getting a reputation back on track. The worst

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violence involving English fans for the past 20 years. It is an English

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problem that many people thought had gone away. It is really sad,

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actually, because an event like this has a huge hype around it. It really

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is ultimately meant to be a kind of celebration of athleticism, I

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suppose, and bringing different countries together and having an

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exciting tournament. That is so far from what we are seeing from all

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these images. We were saying before we came on air, this is really going

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to open up questions about the future of tournaments like this and

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how they are going to be held, and also the bidding process is around

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tournaments like this, because it has always been seen as a huge

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honour, economic and culturally and socially, to host a tournament like

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this. But if they are always going to be marred by incidents like this

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and violent and all of this sort of bloodshed, I suppose, then host

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cities are going to have to think twice about whether they want to

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have that risk. It is interesting that all of the build-up talk was of

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concern about security in the wake of the Paris terror attacks, that

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was seen as the real threat, Terra. But obviously it is the old problem

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of hooliganism that has been causing so many problems in Marseille. The

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focus has shifted from terror within hours to the fans. The interesting

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point is of course that Russia will be staging the World Cup in only two

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years' time. There is an important decision for not only Uefa and how

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to deal with the Russian Football Association, but also Fifa, do we

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want Russia to stage the World Cup? The already question marks about why

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they are staging it. The last time there was major trouble at a

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tournament was in Warsaw in 2012 when the Russian fans will yet again

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involved with the Czech Republic fans in some violence. That would be

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a real problem, the Russian hooligans, who obviously pretty

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hard-core. The last thing that Fifa needs at the moment is bad press.

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One of the issues also is that last night in the game we saw flares and

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firecrackers being let off. How did these fans get them into the

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stadium, that is what you want to know. For me, the question arises

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around how much resources are available. Clearly they are very,

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very stretched. You know, there are huge amounts of people, while the

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violence might have started with a couple of people getting into a

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fight, it seems that everybody is very an edge and everybody is very

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twitchy, and I would imagine in a situation like this, violent very

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much breeds violence. The reports of Russian fans having gumshield and

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knuckle-dusters in the stadium, how did they get them in? I regularly go

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to football matches, I get searched and my bag searched and frisked as a

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matter of course, why is it not being done the? Let's move the

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Sunday Mirror, they have got the same story but a combined front page

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that has happy and glorious, happy obviously about the Queen's birthday

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celebrations at watching the flight path there, all smiles. And then

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those really gruesome scenes from Marseille, happy and glorious. Is

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that an effective front page, Josie? There is a marked difference between

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what we are soon going on, and today with all the celebrations going on,

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and that in contrast with what we saw yesterday and hopefully won't

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see again but most likely could over the coming days. So it is just too

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much situations. And also promotion we -- two different situations.

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There are people who enjoy reading about the Royal Family and football,

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sellers in the tabloid world. There is one in one or two papers, you can

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see it in the Mirror's paper there, Prince George appearing to salute,

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but he might be shielding his eyes from the sun as he looks at the

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aeroplanes. And it is baby Charlotte, the Queen's

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great-granddaughter's first balcony public appearance. She appears to be

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making a little wave there. It is a lovely picture there. The fans, the

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hooligans that we can see from in, I don't know whether they are English

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fans or Russian fans, it is hard to tell. -- we can see throwing. We

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talk about hooligans being a problem. In terms of the English

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hooligans, that problem has been controlled partly by the police

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confiscating passports of known hooligans before tournaments. But

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this time it seems that a number of troublemakers did get over there.

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Yes, it is that lethal mix of drink and a few troublemakers in the

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crowd. And also a country that is easy to get to, France, so easy to

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get to compare to somewhere like Brazil. You have to have sympathy

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with the vast majority of the fans, if you are sitting there enjoying

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yourself, having a drink before the game, and a chair comes flying

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across or a bottle from another group of people intent on causing

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trouble, what do you do? Sometimes you run, but with a few drinks

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inside of you, sometimes you react the other way. Jamie Vardy's wife

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Rebecca turned up, she was having a quiet meal, and got caught up in it,

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I'm sure that she is not a hooligan. I think some of the hooligans were

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touting that they want to leave the European Union in Marseille, that

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read us on to the referendum, not too far away now. We have got the

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Sunday Telegraph, they have got yet another warning from the Prime

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Minister about Brexit, this time focusing on the threat to pensions

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if we leave. It seems that there is another day, another scare story.

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This time it is pensions. Also the NHS and also defence, other things

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that Cameron is warning could be impacted and cutback in case of

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Brexit. For me, this looks like he is targeting a specific audience,

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the older voters who care a lot about pensions. In the Telegraph it

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says, TV licences, bus passes, that sort of thing... Even your bus pass!

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It was in motor. And the other things, defence and the NHS, that is

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for a topical -- it was emotive. Defence in the light of the

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terrorist threats, we have seen over the last couple of months but it

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will be topical. In the light of the junior doctors' strikes, all the

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attention that has had over the last couple of months. These are all very

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specific and intentionally chosen I think. Pensions as well, over the

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last couple of weeks, the story that has been plastered across the front

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pages has been the NHS pensions. I think that could very much tap into

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the psyche of the public. Very intentional, I think. Dave, it is

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like Downing Street is going through a check list of things that could be

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affected by a Brexit? I have said that no option is risk-free, if you

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stay in the EU, it is going to change and evolve, and if you leave

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it could create shock waves. However, the way these two sides are

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selling it, if you staying in, you know, you're going to lose your job

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and there will be a world war three, played and pestilence. On the other

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side, if we stay in, we will have foreign hordes coming in. They are

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taking it to an extreme on both sides. The problem is, do the public

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really believe most of it? In the general election, you usually get

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leaders saying, this will happen after the general election, we will

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spend more money on rascals and give an extra tax cut or whatever. Now

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the warning -- spend more money on art schools. Now be warning about

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how bad it will go. One poll was suggesting a lead for the leave

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campaign? There is an element of antagonism, people saying we are not

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going to vote to stay just because you are bullying and can join us.

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There is a tone of bullying of elderly people in this, they are

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doing it on both sides. Dave, you have a piece on the Sun on Sunday

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talking about Britain's Armed Forces, according to George Osborne,

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facing a wave of cuts if we vote to leave the EU. This adds to what

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David Cameron is saying in the Sunday Telegraph from the Observer.

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I had a meeting with George Osborne this week in which he says there

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will be a 20 to ?40 billion black hole in public finances. One of the

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things he thinks he will have to do is to cut or Armed Forces, he named

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the figure, ?1.5 billion, new jets will not arrive, we will not have

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warships, no new kit, he will have to cut again the personnel. We have

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already seen Armed Forces cut by a fifth and 20,000 jobs have gone. Do

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we believe this? That is what the Chancellor is saying. He believes

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that if we leave he will have to do that. The other side will no doubt

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say that it is another scare story, and this is how it goes on. Small

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Britain, not Great Britain, is one of the headlines. Let's go on to the

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Express. It is interesting, I don't know if there is any truth to it,

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they are saying that panic is gripping Downing Street. Going back

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to the poll we were talking about that suggested a sizeable lead for

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the leave campaign, do you think Downing Street are getting worried

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about the way the referendum might go? All we have to go on at the

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moment is really the polls and the public sentiment and anecdotal

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things that we are hearing. You know, if you are David Cameron then

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I'm sure you are getting uneasy and your kind of thinking, you know,

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about what can be done in the last two weeks before we go to the polls.

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If he weren't concerned, and if there was not this panic in Downing

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Street, we wouldn't be getting all the other stories we were talking

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about, the warnings about the fence, pensions, NHS and all of that, so

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there must be some truth to this. -- defence. Equally, it makes for a

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good headline. And it is the Express's lying on the whole thing.

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And a lot of us are suffering a little bit from Brexit fatigue --

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the Express's line. It is not just the polls in fairness. The two sides

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do their own private polling, they are knocking on doors day and night.

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What the Labour Party in particular finding is that 70% the core support

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are saying they are going to leave. This is because they see David

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Cameron, a Conservative, telling them to remain, and they don't like

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David Cameron because they are Labour voters. And they haven't seen

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very much of Jeremy Corbyn, have they? Absolutely not, and I think

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what this story says is that Labour will take the front seat, the

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controls of the car, and that the Conservatives sit in the back-seat

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for a week or so so that they can address the problem. Immigration is

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an issue that affects working class people more than the better off, the

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better of use them as the gardeners or cleaners, they are cheap for

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them. But the working class are in poor areas, these people coming in

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on the jobs that they don't want. We heard Jeremy Corbyn in an interview

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yesterday, he was asked on the scale of one to ten about how enthusiastic

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he was about the EU, he said 7.5, not incredibly enthusiastic.

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Privately, I have discussed it with MPs in Westminster, who believe that

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despite what he is saying he will still put his cross in the leave

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vote because he has been a supporter of leaving Europe. Who knows if he

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will help or make things even worse for the remain campaign. Let's go on

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to the Sunday Times. They have got a story about a leaked UK plan to open

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the doors to 1 million Turkish citizens, British diplomats secretly

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discussing granting visa-free travel to the UK for more than 1 million

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Turks, according to leaked diplomatic cables that the Sunday

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Times say they have seen. To me, this story sounds quite vague and

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theoretical at this point. They say that the UK could consider extending

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visa-free travel, the number in question is 1.5 million Turks, but

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only to those who are special passport holders. It doesn't really

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explain much to tell what that means and who that would encompass. So I

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think at this point it is, you know, another spin, yet another spin on

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the Brexit story. This is one area that people have been concerned

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about, opening the doors of Europe to the 17 million plus population of

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Turkey. Hugely, it is very topical, and it will be interesting to see

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what happens after due the 23rd and whether this will actually

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materialise. Dave, is that a good story in your view? It is a

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conjugated story, there are a number of documents from British diplomats

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saying that we should give -- complicated story. Turkish diplomats

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free travel. This feeds into the Vote Leave argument that Turkey is

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about to join the EU, despite reassurances from David Cameron, and

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we know that David Cameron wants Turkey to join the EU, which would

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extend the EU borders right up to Syria and Iraq. This plays into

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that, they are saying that it is a scare story. One side is accusing

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the other of a scare story, and it is all about carefully selected

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e-mails. Nevertheless, talks have been going on about getting closer

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to Turkey. That will play into that story. We have another story in the

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Sunday Times about new school rules to let boys work skirts, what's that

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all about? I can't say I am an expert on this! It is sweeping

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changes. The article says that 80s day schools, including 40 primaries,

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have introduced gender neutral uniforms -- 80 schools. Girls can

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wear trousers if they don't want to wear skirts. It is a sweeping

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change. I off the top of my head, what proportion of LGBT kids in

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schools is these days. I don't know whether sweeping changes like this

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are really necessary, and whether it can't be addressed on a case-by-case

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basis. I definitely think you obviously have two admit open and

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tolerant -- you have to be open and tolerant about issues like this, if

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boys want to wear skirts in should be fine. Whether such sweeping

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changes are needed, or can it not be addressed on a day by day basis.

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Dave, do you have a view on gender neutral policy? The problem with

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this is, if anybody has had children will know, if you try to tell a boy

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that he is not a boy or a girl that is not a girl, there will be a

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number of rare cases where children are confused about their identity.

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If you say to a little boy, you can't play with guns, they will find

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something, and implement to pretend it is a gun. It is trying to make

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your goal to behave more like a boy, she will still put her mum's high

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heels on and pick up a handbag and go round the house. That is just the

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way kids. Lovely thought. Thank you both of you for being with us. Thank

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you so much. Just a reminder, we take a look

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at tomorrow's front pages every evening at 10:30pm and 11:30pm

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here on BBC News.

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