20/11/2011 The Politics Show Wales


20/11/2011

Jon Sopel and Aled ap Dafydd with analysis of the political scene shaping Wales.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 20/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Here in Wales: The Archbishop of Wales accuses

:00:41.:00:43.

bankers who take big bonuses of moral blindness and offers comfort

:00:43.:00:46.

and warmth should there be protesters camped outside Llandaf

:00:46.:00:51.

Cathedral. And are the days of the blogs

:00:51.:01:01.
:01:01.:01:01.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2347 seconds

:01:01.:40:08.

Welcome to the Politics Show. Is there life in the Welsh blogosphere

:40:08.:40:15.

and the latest from a Ynys Mon Council. The Archbishop of Wales

:40:15.:40:19.

has joined the debate on the morality of big bonuses. He said

:40:19.:40:24.

there was a moral blindness on bonuses and he would offer to keep

:40:24.:40:28.

services going an offer warmth and security should they be protesters

:40:28.:40:38.
:40:38.:40:38.

outside Llandaff Cathedral. I went to meet the Archbishop of Wales at

:40:38.:40:42.

his home in Llandaff. We discussed issues of morality and I began by

:40:43.:40:47.

asking him if he believed the recent process Arie sign there is a

:40:47.:40:53.

crusade against capitalism. It has been on the agenda for a very long

:40:53.:40:58.

time. The issue of the bankers over the last couple of years is just

:40:58.:41:02.

the tip of the iceberg. People are really asking, what are the real

:41:02.:41:07.

values of our society? It is quite interesting, I think, that even the

:41:07.:41:11.

banks have woken up to this. I was reading yesterday that the main

:41:11.:41:19.

banks have decided there needs to be a code of ethics for bankers. If

:41:19.:41:24.

they do not follow that code, they can be stripped of their jobs. It

:41:24.:41:29.

was rather interesting they have reached a point. The Harvard

:41:29.:41:34.

Business School has been commending that bankers and business people

:41:34.:41:40.

should actually take the same kind of oath as doctors. That is where

:41:40.:41:43.

the safeguard the interests of people they are serving. If they

:41:43.:41:49.

break that oath, they are out. I think it is quite interesting that

:41:49.:41:54.

all that is going on. I am not sure it is a simple debate about left or

:41:54.:41:59.

right. I think it is about values and what really matters in society.

:41:59.:42:04.

If you look at the word economics, it means Good Housekeeping. As a

:42:04.:42:08.

household, if you do not treat every member with respect and say,

:42:08.:42:13.

I will respect those who were affluent and they do not care what

:42:13.:42:17.

the rest, that is going to wreck the house told. The same thing is

:42:17.:42:22.

true in the country. St Paul's has been in focus in recent weeks. Can

:42:22.:42:26.

I quote you some of the things that have been said? It has been said,

:42:27.:42:32.

you got it wrong. It has been said, it was hasty to close the cathedral.

:42:33.:42:36.

The Canon of Leicester said, St Paul's should be keeping its doors

:42:36.:42:42.

open all night so protesters can shelter from the cold. What do you

:42:42.:42:47.

think? It is easier when you are on the outside to condemn decisions

:42:47.:42:54.

that are made in the heat of the moment. I would hope if this were

:42:54.:42:59.

to happen outside cathedral -- Llandaff Cathedral, I would hope we

:42:59.:43:04.

would keep the services going, keep the cathedral open, even though we

:43:04.:43:09.

might have to triple the people to get in there. I hope they would

:43:09.:43:13.

understand it stands there as a place of worship, as a blaze of

:43:13.:43:17.

dialogue, and they would be welcome to come in. I would hope the doors

:43:17.:43:21.

would remain open. -- a place of dialogue. Would you give them

:43:21.:43:25.

security overnight? Yes. The cathedral is heated in the winter.

:43:25.:43:32.

It is easy for me to say this. I would hope if people wanted to make

:43:32.:43:37.

peaceful protests and that did not disrupt the life of the cathedral

:43:37.:43:41.

as far as worship is concerned, we would be as accommodating as

:43:41.:43:46.

possible. Should the Church be claiming ordination gives you a

:43:46.:43:50.

privileged insight into solving the financial crisis? Not a soul. He

:43:50.:43:56.

does not at all. But what I think it does do is enable you to ask

:43:57.:44:02.

what are the values we ought to have. What is important for

:44:02.:44:06.

individuals and the country. It is interesting that businesses use

:44:06.:44:10.

spiritual language. We talk about their mission, they talk about the

:44:10.:44:17.

spare -- spirituality of business. They borrowed them from the church.

:44:17.:44:22.

It is very interesting there is an institute in Australia, the son

:44:22.:44:27.

James's Institute, that says everyone making a decision in

:44:27.:44:32.

business should ask himself, would I be happy for this to be on the

:44:32.:44:35.

record? What would happen if everybody did this? What would

:44:35.:44:42.

happen if people do this to me? If all of us asked those questions

:44:42.:44:46.

before we to decisions, we might come to very different ways of

:44:46.:44:51.

doing things. You say that ordination -- ordination does not

:44:51.:44:54.

give you that privilege. The Archbishop of Canterbury has said

:44:54.:44:59.

he is in favour of the Robin Hood tax. Is that not stepping on that

:44:59.:45:06.

territory? No. What he is saying, I think, he is expressing a personal

:45:06.:45:12.

opinion. I do not think he would claim he is an economist. He is a

:45:12.:45:16.

theologian. The job of anybody who is ordained is to ask difficult

:45:16.:45:20.

questions. He is asking the right moral questions. He is suggesting

:45:20.:45:25.

we have got it wrong, where you have got extreme poverty on the one

:45:25.:45:31.

hand and extreme riches on the other. For example, the bankers in

:45:31.:45:37.

2011, in January this year, awarded themselves �7 billion in bonuses.

:45:37.:45:42.

That is after nearly two main banks went to the wall. There is

:45:42.:45:47.

something wrong there. There is a moral blind us there. We have seen

:45:47.:45:54.

the anti-capitalist movement moved to Cardiff in recent days. Are you

:45:54.:45:59.

in favour of such widespread protest like this? As long as

:45:59.:46:07.

people are not violent and as long as they express their views and as

:46:07.:46:13.

long as they did attract elements that are there for the hell of it,

:46:13.:46:19.

yes, I am. How else do people make their feelings known? What would

:46:19.:46:25.

you say to those who, to coin a phrase from the financial word,

:46:25.:46:29.

that the churches overtrading on that this matter? It is stepping

:46:29.:46:34.

beyond what is acceptable for the Church to be voicing its opinion

:46:34.:46:40.

on? It's an extension of the argument that religion or to keep

:46:40.:46:44.

out of politics. Politics is the way we run our society and

:46:45.:46:48.

therefore there are moral questions it. It seems to me that believing

:46:48.:46:54.

in God means everyone of us is made in the image of God and if that is

:46:54.:46:59.

true, the way that people are treated by institutions is a matter

:46:59.:47:06.

for the Christian faith. On another issue of morality, organ donation.

:47:06.:47:12.

We have heard the plans from the Welsh government. You have voice

:47:12.:47:17.

your concerns in the past that the plans in the new government have

:47:17.:47:21.

announced are no different to the plans which were announced by the

:47:21.:47:28.

previous government. I suppose the question is, what next for you?

:47:28.:47:32.

would not want to be seen as leading some kind of campaign. My

:47:32.:47:37.

job was to raise moral questions about the proposed legislation and

:47:37.:47:41.

the road -- and the proposed legislation has now been put into a

:47:41.:47:45.

white paper. It is up for consultation. I hope there will be

:47:45.:47:48.

widespread discussion about this because they really do think this

:47:48.:47:54.

is a moral issue. Presumed consent is the wrong way to go, I think. It

:47:54.:48:01.

takes away individual rides. I know it it is an emotive subject. --

:48:01.:48:05.

individual rights. We need more organ donors but the way to do that

:48:06.:48:11.

is to encourage more people to give their organs rather than to say, if

:48:11.:48:16.

you have not opted out, then the state will use your organs.

:48:16.:48:20.

Charities in this field are claiming presumed content --

:48:20.:48:24.

consent would increase the number of donations. Some people would say

:48:24.:48:30.

there is a contradiction between what you are saying on one hand and

:48:30.:48:34.

then being the Archbishop of Wales, who would want to see as many

:48:34.:48:41.

people getting better as possible? Absolutely. I carry an organ donor

:48:41.:48:46.

card myself. That is not the issue. It is the way they set about it.

:48:46.:48:52.

The evidence is more ambiguous than they think. Israel has presumed

:48:52.:48:56.

consent. The number of organ donations have not increased. It is

:48:56.:49:00.

rather interesting, I think, that organ donations in Wales over the

:49:00.:49:04.

last two years have increased by 66%. That is more than any other

:49:04.:49:09.

part of the UK, according to research by the University of

:49:09.:49:13.

Ulster. I think there are other ways of going about it. Spain, 10

:49:13.:49:18.

years after it had presumed consent, did not have any more organ

:49:18.:49:23.

donations. Once it set up a new translation -- transplantation Unit,

:49:23.:49:28.

more organs became available. Do you think people need to be better

:49:28.:49:33.

educated on this matter? Some doctors have said there are a

:49:34.:49:41.

shortage of critical care beds in Wales. Do you have concerns in that

:49:41.:49:46.

field? Yes. I think my main concern is to raise his moral question

:49:46.:49:50.

about presumed consent. Is this the right way for any government to go?

:49:50.:49:54.

It is not consent, they are assuming that if you have not opted

:49:54.:50:00.

out, the organs become a state organs. I know the White Paper says

:50:00.:50:03.

they will take family views into consideration but that is very

:50:03.:50:07.

vague. What does that actually mean? Do you believe that to be a

:50:07.:50:13.

case? That the Government will take the family's word as the final

:50:13.:50:18.

word? A did not say that in the White Paper. It says it will take

:50:18.:50:22.

their views into consideration. It does not say what ever the family

:50:22.:50:28.

decides, even if these people have not opted out, we will take the

:50:28.:50:33.

family's side. It does not say that. There needs to be greater clarity

:50:34.:50:39.

about that. We have to have promises, in the legislation, to

:50:39.:50:45.

say that if the family really reject -- object, it will not

:50:45.:50:51.

happen. There is another moral issue here. Imagine somebody who is

:50:51.:50:58.

obviously dying, who has not opted to give organs, Elise the doctors

:50:59.:51:03.

can say to the family, this is a terrible tragedy for you but some

:51:03.:51:09.

good can come out of it. The organs of your father could be used by

:51:09.:51:14.

other people. Would you be willing to do that? There is a world of

:51:14.:51:17.

difference between that scenario and the scenario of doctors saying,

:51:17.:51:23.

I'm sorry, your father has not opted out. We have to take his

:51:23.:51:29.

organs. It is a totally different scene, it seems to me. Thank you.

:51:29.:51:37.

That was the Archbishop of Wales. The Leveson Inquiry into press

:51:37.:51:40.

standards is casting an eye over the blogosphere and considering

:51:40.:51:43.

whether there is any way of regulating blogs and news websites.

:51:43.:51:48.

Are a difficult task but even if it were desirable, will there be many

:51:48.:51:52.

blogs left to police in a couple of years' time? Have they lost much of

:51:52.:52:01.

their appeal as other social media have become more dominant?

:52:01.:52:05.

Half a decade ago, blogs seemed to be everywhere on the internet.

:52:06.:52:10.

Anyone who was anyone had a blog. Journalists would be scanning them

:52:10.:52:17.

on a daily basis. Now blogs are a bit more thin on the ground.

:52:17.:52:24.

think it is a very weak creature compared to what it was four years

:52:24.:52:34.

ago. In 2007, the Welsh blogosphere was vibrant. It was feeding into

:52:34.:52:40.

the political discourse. People were blogging right, left and

:52:40.:52:44.

centre. I look out there now and I see very little remaining. There

:52:44.:52:50.

are a few interesting blogs that still exist but actually they are

:52:50.:52:57.

not a daily must read. That is the editor of Wales home. Twitter, the

:52:57.:53:01.

Social media of choice for many politicians and journalists, has

:53:01.:53:09.

cut the blogs down to size. Yet they still have a role. This man

:53:09.:53:17.

blogs in Welsh. You are getting two levels. You're getting Twitter for

:53:17.:53:21.

the short instant doors, the breaking news stories, and then the

:53:21.:53:25.

more considered stuff is still there on the box. Blogs only came

:53:25.:53:31.

on the scene five years ago and may have changed so much. Where we are

:53:31.:53:41.

heading, who knows. Blogs almost seemed a bit old-fashioned. Yes.

:53:41.:53:47.

What you see is a shakedown. When blogs started, it was possible for

:53:47.:53:51.

people who were not connected to news organisations to build a big

:53:51.:53:59.

sides with big followings very quickly. -- sites. Those have

:53:59.:54:06.

tailed off now. The big boards are now are the ones that tend to be

:54:06.:54:11.

attached to other media outlets or attached to political parties or

:54:11.:54:17.

particular thought groups. One of the appeals of blogs is their

:54:17.:54:22.

freedom. This week we learned that Leveson Inquiry will also consider

:54:22.:54:29.

regulating blogs. What does a veteran blogger make of that? This

:54:29.:54:36.

man has been active for eight years. You do have recourse to the law.

:54:36.:54:40.

Bloggs's in Britain are subject to libel laws. They are subject to

:54:40.:54:49.

other laws. -- bloggers. Someone on Facebook has been prosecuted. They

:54:49.:54:53.

are trying to edit the Continent when you can move the block to

:54:53.:54:58.

another provider, even in Russia or China, how do you follow that? --

:54:58.:55:03.

move the blog. How do you regularly the anonymous is one of the first

:55:03.:55:11.

big questions. Generally, the sites that need regulation are anonymous.

:55:11.:55:16.

I spend a lot of my time working on a website and we are very, very

:55:16.:55:21.

careful, not just in the articles but in terms of Commons, because

:55:21.:55:26.

ultimately there our libel laws which can be used against people

:55:26.:55:30.

who publish certain types of material. I think there is a legal

:55:30.:55:36.

set-up that already exists. It is easy to forget the law of the

:55:36.:55:46.
:55:46.:55:49.

land applies to social media. the MPs were fiddling their

:55:49.:55:56.

expenses, three Labour MPs went before the court. I was just on the

:55:56.:55:59.

point of saying something quite humorous about that fact and I

:56:00.:56:04.

suddenly realise, good God, that would be contempt of court. You

:56:04.:56:12.

have to think very carefully. There is a kind of... There is an

:56:12.:56:16.

attraction to say almost anything. But you have to think about it.

:56:16.:56:20.

pace of change in social media has been breathtaking. Who knows what

:56:20.:56:26.

it will look like in five years? One fairly safe bet is the long arm

:56:26.:56:30.

of the British law is likely to be the only formal regulation reaching

:56:30.:56:37.

into the blogosphere any time soon. BBC Wales understands the county

:56:37.:56:41.

council elections on Anglesey are likely to be postponed for 12

:56:41.:56:45.

months because of a review of the council's selectorial boundaries.

:56:45.:56:51.

Elections across Wales will be held in May. Our correspondent joins us

:56:51.:56:58.

now. What has been announced -- what is being announced? We will

:56:58.:57:01.

get the announcement of draft proposals by the Boundary

:57:02.:57:11.
:57:12.:57:15.

Commission, affecting the number of Air pictorial world -- electoral

:57:15.:57:19.

wards. There are draft proposals tomorrow. That goes on, an

:57:19.:57:23.

opportunity for the public to air their views until the end of

:57:23.:57:26.

January. The commission then reviews those responses, prepares

:57:26.:57:33.

its final proposals, submits those to the minister some time in March.

:57:33.:57:40.

This is far more than a small story. This process is part of the encore

:57:40.:57:45.

Un process to try and get democracy to mean something. -- ongoing

:57:45.:57:51.

process. This story has profound political implications for the

:57:51.:57:57.

electorate of Anglesey. How does that affect the timing of

:57:57.:58:05.

elections? Elections do not happen overnight. There is a process of

:58:05.:58:09.

preparation, the register has to be prepared. If you do not know for

:58:09.:58:13.

certain what the wards are going to be, the number of people living in

:58:13.:58:20.

the ward, it is very difficult to prepare for the register. The work

:58:20.:58:23.

to plan for the election would normally staff at the beginning of

:58:23.:58:29.

next month and it looks highly problematic -- normally start. They

:58:29.:58:34.

do not look like they will be held in May. The likelihood is they will

:58:34.:58:40.

be held -- deferred for 12 months. That is what I asked the Leader of

:58:40.:58:47.

the Labour group. I asked him if he foresaw a elections happening. This

:58:47.:58:52.

is what he said. I do not think so. They will be very difficult, I

:58:52.:58:57.

would imagine, because of the timescale involved. The local

:58:57.:59:01.

authority has to get the electoral list out by December of this year

:59:01.:59:06.

in order to get the elections in May. I do not think currently that

:59:06.:59:10.

will be possible because we do not know what the new boundaries are

:59:10.:59:16.

going to be. It is important to remember anglers

:59:16.:59:20.

the council is subject to what they call special measures, the

:59:20.:59:23.

authority is being run by commissioners appointed by the

:59:23.:59:32.

local government, the whole object of this exercise was to bring

:59:32.:59:39.

democratic renewal to the island in terms of the age profile and so

:59:39.:59:43.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS