04/12/2011 The Politics Show Wales


04/12/2011

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Later, change or face problems that beset their health service after

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the Second World War. And jazz the eurozone crisis but

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2017 seconds

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did repatriation of powers on the Welcome to the Politics Show in

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Wales. Coming up, the euro, pensions, business confidence and

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Christmas. But first the senior -- a senior

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figure in the NHS has said that if proposed changes to the NHS do not

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change, the problems that beset health care after the Second World

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War will return. Professor Sir Mansel Aylward, told us that the

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poor could be left in a dark hole, with their health deteriorating

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rapidly. For many years, reports have warned

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the Welsh NHS must change radically, or face being overwhelmed. Until

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now, change has been at best limited. The most recent document

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warning the NHS of the need for reform came in May, from the bed in

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commission, made up of health professionals and expires. --

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experts. It was chaired by Sir Mansell Aylward. It was promised

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that changes would be made, and more services offered at home. The

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head of the public advisory body... What should the NHS in Wales look

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like in 10 years' time, if the reforms that you want to see are

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actually acted on. It is defined as world-class health care, and if we

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can say that the system is as good as or better than elsewhere, that

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would be good. We can use it as a benchmark. It will be a service

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that will be safer for people to going to hospital. The service were

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people who go into hospital will not have to stay there. A service

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where much of the work that is done and secondary care hospitals now it

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is moved into the community. People will be able to access care in

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their own home. Their own GP will be able to provide them with a

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better range of options. There will be local health centres which will

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focus upon not just looking at curing people, but looking at

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improving the health and other ways, by exploiting the link between

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public health, the NHS and local government. It will be a safer

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system, a quality improved system. We have heard many warnings over

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the years, saying the NHS has to change, things are unsustainable.

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Disaster if things don't happen. You do not get the impression that

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changes have happen. -- have happened. I feel depressed and

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disappointed that there has been little progress. The demographic

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changes, people are getting older, and therefore we have a lot of -- a

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larger population of people who have larger problems than the

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younger population. Medical advances, technical advances, they

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all contribute to how will be managed to pay for the NHS and

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deliver the services we want? There has been progress. Certainly the

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NHS reforms where we have got single unified health boards, and

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we haven't -- abandoned the market approach, they have brought a much

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more focused emphasis to the NHS on quality and care, and provision.

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But we have not really cracked it. Together for Health, which the

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Minister launched a couple of weeks ago, that is another vision. It is

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very similar to addressing the issues that have been addressed all

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along, but to me, it has a greater commitment to it, and says things

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that have not been said before. It talks about not just dealing with

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care, but avoiding illness, which is very important. In short, my

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answer is yes, we need to do a lot more. But we're not going to get

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many more chances. In the past we had plenty of money, and perhaps we

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spent it wrongly. Now we have got no money -- more money, and that

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will force us to think about changing to better quality, safer

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hospitals. We have emotional attachments, particularly to our

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local hospitals. Do you need to tell us that if everything is done

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at your local hospital, you are frankly more likely to die, than if

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you went that much further a weightier more specialised

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facilities? No, we do not want to scare you about that, and what we

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should remember is nowadays there are people who have unusual

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diseases Andreea conditions, -- rare conditions, and you cannot

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always deliver that at the local level. It would be foolhardy to say

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that we should all be treated in the same way at the District

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Hospital, which the minister says they will continue. You have to

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have specialised centres. We have got to look at the conditions

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people they have, and match them to treatment they have. We do need

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general hospitals, and we need health centres, but we also need

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specialised centres. The other area where we can avoid risk is the

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campaign was based on the fact that there are deaths in hospital that

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are run avoid -- are avoidable. I was involved in the beginning with

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this, and I tried to persuade politicians that this was not a

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message that would frighten people. It was saying, this is what is

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happening, this is a measure of the quality you get in hospital. Not

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just in Wales, but throughout the world. That was accepted, but many

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people said you cannot tell people they are going to die in hospital.

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But people do die in hospital, and we expect that. We do not expect

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people to die is this could have been avoidable. We are trying to

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avoid mistakes. I want you, as the public, to say, I am not putting up

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with this, I want a better quality of life and health care, and I do

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not want to be a risk when I going to hospital. That is what we want

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NHS Wales to be like. If the reforms are not made, if the

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changes do not happen, how a ragged could NHS services get? When we

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first spoke about the NHS in 1960. People were dying earlier, people

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were dying of diseases that could not be cured, people were dying of

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minor things. That Panorama that was around post war will be again,

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we will have post-Cold lotteries, and most importantly the richer

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would get better, there is no two ways about that, and the poorer

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would get poorer, and their health would deteriorate markedly. Because

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what the NHS does, and we must be mindful of the fact that the NHS is

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about people who are poor, indeed, in distress, and need a better NHS

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service. It is like the man who is robbed of his memory because of

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Alzheimer's disease, and the elderly lady who needs a hip

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operation, this is what the NHS is all about, and we cannot forsake

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them. So we must do well, but we must avoid those people being left

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in the dark hole. Professor Sir Mansel Aylward, thank you very much.

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Thank you. David Cameron insists he will

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defend Britain's interests of European treaties are rewritten in

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the wake of the eurozone debt crisis. He is preparing to attend a

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crisis summit with other European leaders this week. I spoke to two

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senior -- former MEPs. Wayne David and Jonathan Evans.

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The centralising member state budgets, that will depend on what

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control you are talking about. It is important for Britain to be

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there, and the national interests to be protected. But if David

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Cameron follows what the Euro- sceptics are saying, then some

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countries are likely to say we will do her own thing, and we're on the

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sidelines. The 10 countries who are not in the euro are on the

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sidelines to some extent in the debate, which is a good thing.

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There are very many people in Parliament who are due to be in the

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euro, who would like to forget some of the remarks made at the time, --

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at the time. But you cannot sideline the 10 who are not in the

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euro from being actively involved in economic conditions, but we

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would not want to have or budgets being looked over by the Germans

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and French, being approved by Angela Merkel, and Mr Sarkozy. For

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a short period of time, they may be prepared to sign up to this in

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order to get themselves through the immediate crisis, but I think there

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is a huge political question about whether the countries will be

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comfortable for a long time, with Berlin deciding their economic

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policy. If the this treaty change in the future, David Cameron has on

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records as saying he wants to protect Britain's interests. What

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do you think he has in mind? think he has in mind getting back

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the opt-outs in relation to social policy that John Major had

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negotiated and agreed to the country, which were later given

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away by Tony Blair. He will want to have some security in relation to

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the City of London, and he has raised that already. These are big

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issues for us. If the treaty change his Berlin deciding to approve the

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EU budgets for the other 17 countries in the eurozone area, I

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would a car -- regard that as a major change, not a trivial change.

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If that is so, it is perfectly likely that the Prime Minister will

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be saying, if that is going to take place we have got to have British

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interests protect it. What should be the priority for David Cameron?

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Should it be protecting the single currency, single market, or

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repatriating powers back to this country? The first priority has to

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make sure of the stability inside the euro-zone. Not because we are

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concerned about the eurozone as such, but it has a huge impact on

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the United Kingdom. 3 million jobs are dependent on the stability in

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the eurozone. It is very important that Cameron goes there and does

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everything he can to ensure that France and Germany especially give

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a coherent lead to make sure the Spiller -- stability is at Chief.

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How much of this is about the politics of it? Of David Cameron is

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going to be concentrating on the eurozone crisis and not so much on

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repatriating powers, there will be some backbenchers in your party up

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in arms. There are many backbenchers who would not want to

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be in the European Union, but I am not one of them. I share the view

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it is positive for us to be in the single market. But that does not

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mean that on Major -- a major priority on anything is to link the

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two what Berlin and Paris suggest. They have to look after the British

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interests. The answer for the instability as for Angela Merkel to

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grasp the nettle. If she talks endlessly about more Europe, more

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integration, she has to put the credibility of Germany and its

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economic credibility behind some of the other states which are at the

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margins, and I am afraid that so far, meeting after meeting, the

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Germans have not done that. Hopefully in the next 10 days, that

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will take place, because until it does the crisis will continue.

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wonder if the eurozone crisis has played into the hands of the pro

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Europeans, that they are now coming out to say that we need European

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countries to work better together, that needs to be more integration

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to secure the euro, and we are hearing less voices saying let's

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get powers back from Brussels. think it is the case that there has

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been a lot of flag-waving -- flag- waving among certain Euro-sceptics.

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Jonathan is clearly not one of them. That is harmful to Britain's

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national interest. This is a serious situation, and we always

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need to know what is best for Britain. For 200 years, the United

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Kingdom has taken the view that her role is to be in with the European

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partners, not necessarily been part of Europe all the time, and I think

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that is what is going to happen. David Cameron must say that this is

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in Britain's national interest. I believe Germany has to take a more

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positive role, I would like to see the development of eurobonds,

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greater role for the European Central Bank. That would be in

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their best interest, and the crucial thing for us is not how far

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can we get away from it, but how far can we be there making sure our

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national interests are protected? Can be turned to another subject in

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the news, which is public sector pensions. Lord Hutton Today said

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that this is a credible offer by the present government. He is

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letting your party down, after being a member of the former Labour

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government, isn't he? I do not think he is. Whether it is a good

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offer is another matter altogether. The trade unions are right to be

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making sure they get the best deal for their members. The trade unions

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naturally want the best possible deal for them. Some people would

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argue that credible and good are quite similar. No, there is a big

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difference. There is no doubt that the figures stack up, but is that

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the point? It is about whether everything is going to fall, or if

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we have a responsible position adopted by the trade unions. I

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believe that there will be a coming together of the government changes

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its position, which I believe it will do. I believe the situation is

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so serious that we have to get away from tribalism and politics. I

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think... I am very concerned about what impact the changes have on the

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public sector, but at the same time the unions have claimed until now

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that John Hutton said the current system is completely sustainable. I

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have had letters from my constituents who have said that.

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But John Hutton has made it clear that what the Government has put

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forward as a credible answer, and if we do not go forward with the

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change, ultimately we make -- might end up hitting the buffers. I asked

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a colleague last week, Alan Cairns, whether it was feared if public

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sector workers would be retiring on pensions of 3,000 or �4,000 a year,

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after the reforms kicked in. Is that a fair settlement who have

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given their working lives to the public sector? That statistic, in

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terms of �3,000, is nonsense. The reality is that in order to produce

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that figure, all of the people who have only worked for a short period

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of time in the public sector are added into the numbers. The reality

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is that if you have spent a lifetime working in the public

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sector, you will end up with a significantly better pension than

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someone who has worked a lifetime in the private sector. The current

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level of those pensions, being based on final salaries. Final

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salaries for some people, who are paid very big wages, are

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unsustainable. John Hutton has said that, and he also said putting

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Labour tribalism to one side, this is a credible offer. Do you think

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union leader should go the extra mile so we can have a settlements

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in? I think everyone has to go the extra mile, because it is important.

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It is as important a settlement is reached. We have to recognise that

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we are talking about people not to our rich and affluent, like some of

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the top executives in businesses, but lowly paid people. It has been

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one of the accepted things and the public sector that although the

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wages might not be good, pensions were good. Having an attack on

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pensions and the way it has been handled is very unfair and regress

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of the stock the offer is protecting lower-paid people.

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the people at the top who are suffering a major loss. But the

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figures do not bear that out. you very much for joining us for.

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We will continue with the economy, more can -- specifically the Welsh

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economy. I enjoyed by a Istin Davies, the reality is that we are

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seeing less people spending money. Yes, people are shopping more

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frequently, but less money is being spent. We need to make opportunity

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for local businesses over the shopping p it. Are there are less

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people walking through the doors, or the availability for loans -- of

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loans from banks, what are the specifics regarding the businesses

:54:00.:54:10.
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are? They are all adding together to create a pest -- Perfect Storm.

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As you go shopping, the Christmas spirit is an important part of what

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we experience at this time of year. Local traders can provide you with

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the special something that adds value to the economy, but to the

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experience at Christmas. If you are run manufacturing more detail, or

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providing a service, this time of year is incredibly important. Small

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businesses are notoriously difficult, and we're making the

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most of this period. A lot of shops are starting their Christmas sales.

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Is that a sign of how bad things are? I do not think so, I think it

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is a sign of how committed the traders are to commit to the

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customers and make sure there is added value over the Christmas

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period, which means something to the customers. It also adds to the

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sense of well-being. Economic confidence is fragile, but it is

:55:13.:55:16.

important that small businesses are allowed to contribute the attic

:55:16.:55:26.
:55:26.:55:29.

just a moving. -- to that at the moment. Did you see anything in the

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Autumn Statement foreign figures from the Welsh government that will

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give businesses some hope? There are some nuggets of Christmas cheer

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coming from Westminster. There are some good signs coming from Cardiff

:55:39.:55:43.

Bay as well. We need to bring them together to develop a strong

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message. Cardiff Bay has to say this is how we're going to support

:55:51.:55:59.

the Welsh economy, to make sure we're going to drive the economy

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forward. I suppose the problem is that people have less money in

:56:03.:56:08.

their pockets, and it is very hard to entice them to spend what little

:56:09.:56:14.

money there have. Indeed. We need to seek creative marketing

:56:14.:56:17.

strategies. It is not the time to look for new markets, but it is the

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time to go for existing business and show that you are providing

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value. Thank you very much. Let us not forget that Christmas is

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on its way, amid the gloom. Earlier this week the presiding Officer

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Rosemary Butler invited two schools to the Senedd to decorate the

:56:42.:56:52.
:56:52.:56:59.

I would like a real pony. I would like and a C D C C D. -- AC/DC

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albums. The children have been decorating the tree is this morning.

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They told me what you would like for Christmas. What would you like?

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I have a long list, but I will not share with that. I would like to be

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with my family and friends and enjoy Christmas. It is a wonderful

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time of the year. I am looking forward to relaxing after a busy

:57:28.:57:32.

session. What would you like to see the assembly achieve next year?

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you know, last March the people of Wales gave us a resounding Yes in

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the referendum. My hope for next year is to make sure that people --

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we start bringing Delors through that are made for people in Wales.

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-- the laws. The Government has been dragging their heels, there

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are still no new legislation has been brought forward. Who has been

:58:02.:58:06.

dragging their heels? I will be moving it forward and a speedy

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manner. Ponies, AC/DC albums and as in the

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:58:23.:58:25.

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