04/12/2011 The Politics Show Wales


04/12/2011

Jon Sopel and Aled ap Dafydd with analysis of the political scene shaping Wales.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 04/12/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Later, change or face problems that beset their health service after

:00:52.:00:56.

the Second World War. And jazz the eurozone crisis but

:00:56.:01:06.
:01:06.:01:06.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2017 seconds

:01:06.:34:44.

did repatriation of powers on the Welcome to the Politics Show in

:34:44.:34:48.

Wales. Coming up, the euro, pensions, business confidence and

:34:48.:34:52.

Christmas. But first the senior -- a senior

:34:52.:34:56.

figure in the NHS has said that if proposed changes to the NHS do not

:34:56.:35:01.

change, the problems that beset health care after the Second World

:35:01.:35:08.

War will return. Professor Sir Mansel Aylward, told us that the

:35:08.:35:12.

poor could be left in a dark hole, with their health deteriorating

:35:12.:35:19.

rapidly. For many years, reports have warned

:35:19.:35:23.

the Welsh NHS must change radically, or face being overwhelmed. Until

:35:23.:35:30.

now, change has been at best limited. The most recent document

:35:30.:35:35.

warning the NHS of the need for reform came in May, from the bed in

:35:35.:35:42.

commission, made up of health professionals and expires. --

:35:42.:35:52.
:35:52.:35:55.

experts. It was chaired by Sir Mansell Aylward. It was promised

:35:55.:36:03.

that changes would be made, and more services offered at home. The

:36:03.:36:13.
:36:13.:36:16.

head of the public advisory body... What should the NHS in Wales look

:36:16.:36:21.

like in 10 years' time, if the reforms that you want to see are

:36:21.:36:26.

actually acted on. It is defined as world-class health care, and if we

:36:27.:36:30.

can say that the system is as good as or better than elsewhere, that

:36:30.:36:35.

would be good. We can use it as a benchmark. It will be a service

:36:35.:36:39.

that will be safer for people to going to hospital. The service were

:36:39.:36:44.

people who go into hospital will not have to stay there. A service

:36:44.:36:48.

where much of the work that is done and secondary care hospitals now it

:36:48.:36:52.

is moved into the community. People will be able to access care in

:36:52.:36:56.

their own home. Their own GP will be able to provide them with a

:36:56.:37:00.

better range of options. There will be local health centres which will

:37:00.:37:07.

focus upon not just looking at curing people, but looking at

:37:07.:37:12.

improving the health and other ways, by exploiting the link between

:37:12.:37:15.

public health, the NHS and local government. It will be a safer

:37:16.:37:20.

system, a quality improved system. We have heard many warnings over

:37:20.:37:28.

the years, saying the NHS has to change, things are unsustainable.

:37:28.:37:32.

Disaster if things don't happen. You do not get the impression that

:37:32.:37:39.

changes have happen. -- have happened. I feel depressed and

:37:39.:37:43.

disappointed that there has been little progress. The demographic

:37:43.:37:49.

changes, people are getting older, and therefore we have a lot of -- a

:37:49.:37:53.

larger population of people who have larger problems than the

:37:53.:37:57.

younger population. Medical advances, technical advances, they

:37:58.:38:01.

all contribute to how will be managed to pay for the NHS and

:38:01.:38:06.

deliver the services we want? There has been progress. Certainly the

:38:06.:38:12.

NHS reforms where we have got single unified health boards, and

:38:12.:38:16.

we haven't -- abandoned the market approach, they have brought a much

:38:16.:38:25.

more focused emphasis to the NHS on quality and care, and provision.

:38:25.:38:29.

But we have not really cracked it. Together for Health, which the

:38:29.:38:34.

Minister launched a couple of weeks ago, that is another vision. It is

:38:34.:38:40.

very similar to addressing the issues that have been addressed all

:38:40.:38:44.

along, but to me, it has a greater commitment to it, and says things

:38:44.:38:49.

that have not been said before. It talks about not just dealing with

:38:49.:38:55.

care, but avoiding illness, which is very important. In short, my

:38:56.:39:00.

answer is yes, we need to do a lot more. But we're not going to get

:39:00.:39:05.

many more chances. In the past we had plenty of money, and perhaps we

:39:05.:39:09.

spent it wrongly. Now we have got no money -- more money, and that

:39:09.:39:16.

will force us to think about changing to better quality, safer

:39:16.:39:21.

hospitals. We have emotional attachments, particularly to our

:39:21.:39:29.

local hospitals. Do you need to tell us that if everything is done

:39:29.:39:34.

at your local hospital, you are frankly more likely to die, than if

:39:34.:39:37.

you went that much further a weightier more specialised

:39:37.:39:43.

facilities? No, we do not want to scare you about that, and what we

:39:43.:39:48.

should remember is nowadays there are people who have unusual

:39:48.:39:57.

diseases Andreea conditions, -- rare conditions, and you cannot

:39:57.:40:01.

always deliver that at the local level. It would be foolhardy to say

:40:01.:40:05.

that we should all be treated in the same way at the District

:40:05.:40:13.

Hospital, which the minister says they will continue. You have to

:40:14.:40:20.

have specialised centres. We have got to look at the conditions

:40:20.:40:24.

people they have, and match them to treatment they have. We do need

:40:24.:40:28.

general hospitals, and we need health centres, but we also need

:40:28.:40:33.

specialised centres. The other area where we can avoid risk is the

:40:33.:40:37.

campaign was based on the fact that there are deaths in hospital that

:40:37.:40:42.

are run avoid -- are avoidable. I was involved in the beginning with

:40:42.:40:45.

this, and I tried to persuade politicians that this was not a

:40:45.:40:50.

message that would frighten people. It was saying, this is what is

:40:50.:40:54.

happening, this is a measure of the quality you get in hospital. Not

:40:54.:40:59.

just in Wales, but throughout the world. That was accepted, but many

:40:59.:41:03.

people said you cannot tell people they are going to die in hospital.

:41:03.:41:10.

But people do die in hospital, and we expect that. We do not expect

:41:10.:41:20.
:41:20.:41:21.

people to die is this could have been avoidable. We are trying to

:41:21.:41:31.
:41:31.:41:31.

avoid mistakes. I want you, as the public, to say, I am not putting up

:41:31.:41:35.

with this, I want a better quality of life and health care, and I do

:41:35.:41:40.

not want to be a risk when I going to hospital. That is what we want

:41:40.:41:47.

NHS Wales to be like. If the reforms are not made, if the

:41:47.:41:56.

changes do not happen, how a ragged could NHS services get? When we

:41:56.:42:06.
:42:06.:42:09.

first spoke about the NHS in 1960. People were dying earlier, people

:42:09.:42:13.

were dying of diseases that could not be cured, people were dying of

:42:14.:42:21.

minor things. That Panorama that was around post war will be again,

:42:21.:42:25.

we will have post-Cold lotteries, and most importantly the richer

:42:25.:42:29.

would get better, there is no two ways about that, and the poorer

:42:29.:42:34.

would get poorer, and their health would deteriorate markedly. Because

:42:35.:42:39.

what the NHS does, and we must be mindful of the fact that the NHS is

:42:39.:42:49.
:42:49.:42:49.

about people who are poor, indeed, in distress, and need a better NHS

:42:49.:42:59.
:42:59.:43:01.

service. It is like the man who is robbed of his memory because of

:43:01.:43:05.

Alzheimer's disease, and the elderly lady who needs a hip

:43:05.:43:09.

operation, this is what the NHS is all about, and we cannot forsake

:43:09.:43:15.

them. So we must do well, but we must avoid those people being left

:43:15.:43:21.

in the dark hole. Professor Sir Mansel Aylward, thank you very much.

:43:21.:43:26.

Thank you. David Cameron insists he will

:43:26.:43:30.

defend Britain's interests of European treaties are rewritten in

:43:30.:43:35.

the wake of the eurozone debt crisis. He is preparing to attend a

:43:35.:43:40.

crisis summit with other European leaders this week. I spoke to two

:43:40.:43:50.
:43:50.:43:52.

senior -- former MEPs. Wayne David and Jonathan Evans.

:43:52.:43:58.

The centralising member state budgets, that will depend on what

:43:58.:44:01.

control you are talking about. It is important for Britain to be

:44:01.:44:06.

there, and the national interests to be protected. But if David

:44:06.:44:14.

Cameron follows what the Euro- sceptics are saying, then some

:44:14.:44:18.

countries are likely to say we will do her own thing, and we're on the

:44:18.:44:23.

sidelines. The 10 countries who are not in the euro are on the

:44:23.:44:27.

sidelines to some extent in the debate, which is a good thing.

:44:27.:44:31.

There are very many people in Parliament who are due to be in the

:44:31.:44:39.

euro, who would like to forget some of the remarks made at the time, --

:44:39.:44:43.

at the time. But you cannot sideline the 10 who are not in the

:44:43.:44:47.

euro from being actively involved in economic conditions, but we

:44:47.:44:51.

would not want to have or budgets being looked over by the Germans

:44:51.:45:00.

and French, being approved by Angela Merkel, and Mr Sarkozy. For

:45:00.:45:04.

a short period of time, they may be prepared to sign up to this in

:45:04.:45:08.

order to get themselves through the immediate crisis, but I think there

:45:08.:45:11.

is a huge political question about whether the countries will be

:45:11.:45:15.

comfortable for a long time, with Berlin deciding their economic

:45:15.:45:21.

policy. If the this treaty change in the future, David Cameron has on

:45:21.:45:24.

records as saying he wants to protect Britain's interests. What

:45:24.:45:31.

do you think he has in mind? think he has in mind getting back

:45:31.:45:34.

the opt-outs in relation to social policy that John Major had

:45:34.:45:37.

negotiated and agreed to the country, which were later given

:45:37.:45:42.

away by Tony Blair. He will want to have some security in relation to

:45:42.:45:46.

the City of London, and he has raised that already. These are big

:45:46.:45:55.

issues for us. If the treaty change his Berlin deciding to approve the

:45:55.:46:00.

EU budgets for the other 17 countries in the eurozone area, I

:46:00.:46:04.

would a car -- regard that as a major change, not a trivial change.

:46:04.:46:09.

If that is so, it is perfectly likely that the Prime Minister will

:46:09.:46:12.

be saying, if that is going to take place we have got to have British

:46:12.:46:17.

interests protect it. What should be the priority for David Cameron?

:46:17.:46:22.

Should it be protecting the single currency, single market, or

:46:22.:46:27.

repatriating powers back to this country? The first priority has to

:46:27.:46:30.

make sure of the stability inside the euro-zone. Not because we are

:46:31.:46:35.

concerned about the eurozone as such, but it has a huge impact on

:46:35.:46:39.

the United Kingdom. 3 million jobs are dependent on the stability in

:46:39.:46:47.

the eurozone. It is very important that Cameron goes there and does

:46:47.:46:51.

everything he can to ensure that France and Germany especially give

:46:51.:46:55.

a coherent lead to make sure the Spiller -- stability is at Chief.

:46:55.:46:59.

How much of this is about the politics of it? Of David Cameron is

:46:59.:47:04.

going to be concentrating on the eurozone crisis and not so much on

:47:04.:47:07.

repatriating powers, there will be some backbenchers in your party up

:47:07.:47:11.

in arms. There are many backbenchers who would not want to

:47:11.:47:15.

be in the European Union, but I am not one of them. I share the view

:47:15.:47:19.

it is positive for us to be in the single market. But that does not

:47:19.:47:23.

mean that on Major -- a major priority on anything is to link the

:47:23.:47:26.

two what Berlin and Paris suggest. They have to look after the British

:47:26.:47:36.
:47:36.:47:39.

interests. The answer for the instability as for Angela Merkel to

:47:39.:47:43.

grasp the nettle. If she talks endlessly about more Europe, more

:47:43.:47:50.

integration, she has to put the credibility of Germany and its

:47:50.:47:54.

economic credibility behind some of the other states which are at the

:47:54.:47:59.

margins, and I am afraid that so far, meeting after meeting, the

:47:59.:48:03.

Germans have not done that. Hopefully in the next 10 days, that

:48:03.:48:09.

will take place, because until it does the crisis will continue.

:48:09.:48:13.

wonder if the eurozone crisis has played into the hands of the pro

:48:13.:48:16.

Europeans, that they are now coming out to say that we need European

:48:16.:48:22.

countries to work better together, that needs to be more integration

:48:22.:48:25.

to secure the euro, and we are hearing less voices saying let's

:48:25.:48:30.

get powers back from Brussels. think it is the case that there has

:48:30.:48:35.

been a lot of flag-waving -- flag- waving among certain Euro-sceptics.

:48:35.:48:40.

Jonathan is clearly not one of them. That is harmful to Britain's

:48:40.:48:44.

national interest. This is a serious situation, and we always

:48:44.:48:49.

need to know what is best for Britain. For 200 years, the United

:48:49.:48:55.

Kingdom has taken the view that her role is to be in with the European

:48:55.:49:01.

partners, not necessarily been part of Europe all the time, and I think

:49:01.:49:06.

that is what is going to happen. David Cameron must say that this is

:49:06.:49:10.

in Britain's national interest. I believe Germany has to take a more

:49:10.:49:14.

positive role, I would like to see the development of eurobonds,

:49:14.:49:18.

greater role for the European Central Bank. That would be in

:49:18.:49:22.

their best interest, and the crucial thing for us is not how far

:49:22.:49:26.

can we get away from it, but how far can we be there making sure our

:49:26.:49:31.

national interests are protected? Can be turned to another subject in

:49:31.:49:35.

the news, which is public sector pensions. Lord Hutton Today said

:49:35.:49:42.

that this is a credible offer by the present government. He is

:49:42.:49:46.

letting your party down, after being a member of the former Labour

:49:46.:49:54.

government, isn't he? I do not think he is. Whether it is a good

:49:54.:49:58.

offer is another matter altogether. The trade unions are right to be

:49:58.:50:04.

making sure they get the best deal for their members. The trade unions

:50:04.:50:08.

naturally want the best possible deal for them. Some people would

:50:08.:50:13.

argue that credible and good are quite similar. No, there is a big

:50:13.:50:19.

difference. There is no doubt that the figures stack up, but is that

:50:19.:50:23.

the point? It is about whether everything is going to fall, or if

:50:23.:50:28.

we have a responsible position adopted by the trade unions. I

:50:28.:50:31.

believe that there will be a coming together of the government changes

:50:31.:50:35.

its position, which I believe it will do. I believe the situation is

:50:35.:50:45.

so serious that we have to get away from tribalism and politics. I

:50:45.:50:49.

think... I am very concerned about what impact the changes have on the

:50:49.:50:52.

public sector, but at the same time the unions have claimed until now

:50:52.:50:57.

that John Hutton said the current system is completely sustainable. I

:50:57.:51:01.

have had letters from my constituents who have said that.

:51:01.:51:04.

But John Hutton has made it clear that what the Government has put

:51:04.:51:08.

forward as a credible answer, and if we do not go forward with the

:51:08.:51:16.

change, ultimately we make -- might end up hitting the buffers. I asked

:51:16.:51:20.

a colleague last week, Alan Cairns, whether it was feared if public

:51:20.:51:25.

sector workers would be retiring on pensions of 3,000 or �4,000 a year,

:51:25.:51:29.

after the reforms kicked in. Is that a fair settlement who have

:51:29.:51:36.

given their working lives to the public sector? That statistic, in

:51:36.:51:40.

terms of �3,000, is nonsense. The reality is that in order to produce

:51:40.:51:43.

that figure, all of the people who have only worked for a short period

:51:43.:51:48.

of time in the public sector are added into the numbers. The reality

:51:48.:51:51.

is that if you have spent a lifetime working in the public

:51:52.:51:55.

sector, you will end up with a significantly better pension than

:51:55.:52:01.

someone who has worked a lifetime in the private sector. The current

:52:01.:52:05.

level of those pensions, being based on final salaries. Final

:52:05.:52:09.

salaries for some people, who are paid very big wages, are

:52:09.:52:14.

unsustainable. John Hutton has said that, and he also said putting

:52:14.:52:21.

Labour tribalism to one side, this is a credible offer. Do you think

:52:21.:52:26.

union leader should go the extra mile so we can have a settlements

:52:26.:52:32.

in? I think everyone has to go the extra mile, because it is important.

:52:32.:52:37.

It is as important a settlement is reached. We have to recognise that

:52:37.:52:40.

we are talking about people not to our rich and affluent, like some of

:52:40.:52:45.

the top executives in businesses, but lowly paid people. It has been

:52:46.:52:49.

one of the accepted things and the public sector that although the

:52:49.:52:55.

wages might not be good, pensions were good. Having an attack on

:52:55.:52:58.

pensions and the way it has been handled is very unfair and regress

:52:58.:53:03.

of the stock the offer is protecting lower-paid people.

:53:03.:53:07.

the people at the top who are suffering a major loss. But the

:53:07.:53:13.

figures do not bear that out. you very much for joining us for.

:53:13.:53:17.

We will continue with the economy, more can -- specifically the Welsh

:53:17.:53:27.
:53:27.:53:31.

economy. I enjoyed by a Istin Davies, the reality is that we are

:53:31.:53:37.

seeing less people spending money. Yes, people are shopping more

:53:37.:53:46.

frequently, but less money is being spent. We need to make opportunity

:53:46.:53:50.

for local businesses over the shopping p it. Are there are less

:53:50.:53:56.

people walking through the doors, or the availability for loans -- of

:53:56.:54:00.

loans from banks, what are the specifics regarding the businesses

:54:00.:54:10.
:54:10.:54:17.

are? They are all adding together to create a pest -- Perfect Storm.

:54:17.:54:21.

As you go shopping, the Christmas spirit is an important part of what

:54:21.:54:25.

we experience at this time of year. Local traders can provide you with

:54:25.:54:29.

the special something that adds value to the economy, but to the

:54:29.:54:35.

experience at Christmas. If you are run manufacturing more detail, or

:54:35.:54:39.

providing a service, this time of year is incredibly important. Small

:54:39.:54:45.

businesses are notoriously difficult, and we're making the

:54:45.:54:49.

most of this period. A lot of shops are starting their Christmas sales.

:54:49.:54:54.

Is that a sign of how bad things are? I do not think so, I think it

:54:55.:54:59.

is a sign of how committed the traders are to commit to the

:54:59.:55:02.

customers and make sure there is added value over the Christmas

:55:02.:55:07.

period, which means something to the customers. It also adds to the

:55:07.:55:13.

sense of well-being. Economic confidence is fragile, but it is

:55:13.:55:16.

important that small businesses are allowed to contribute the attic

:55:16.:55:26.
:55:26.:55:29.

just a moving. -- to that at the moment. Did you see anything in the

:55:29.:55:31.

Autumn Statement foreign figures from the Welsh government that will

:55:31.:55:35.

give businesses some hope? There are some nuggets of Christmas cheer

:55:35.:55:39.

coming from Westminster. There are some good signs coming from Cardiff

:55:39.:55:43.

Bay as well. We need to bring them together to develop a strong

:55:44.:55:51.

message. Cardiff Bay has to say this is how we're going to support

:55:51.:55:59.

the Welsh economy, to make sure we're going to drive the economy

:55:59.:56:03.

forward. I suppose the problem is that people have less money in

:56:03.:56:08.

their pockets, and it is very hard to entice them to spend what little

:56:09.:56:14.

money there have. Indeed. We need to seek creative marketing

:56:14.:56:17.

strategies. It is not the time to look for new markets, but it is the

:56:17.:56:22.

time to go for existing business and show that you are providing

:56:22.:56:31.

value. Thank you very much. Let us not forget that Christmas is

:56:31.:56:38.

on its way, amid the gloom. Earlier this week the presiding Officer

:56:38.:56:42.

Rosemary Butler invited two schools to the Senedd to decorate the

:56:42.:56:52.
:56:52.:56:59.

I would like a real pony. I would like and a C D C C D. -- AC/DC

:56:59.:57:08.

albums. The children have been decorating the tree is this morning.

:57:08.:57:12.

They told me what you would like for Christmas. What would you like?

:57:12.:57:19.

I have a long list, but I will not share with that. I would like to be

:57:20.:57:24.

with my family and friends and enjoy Christmas. It is a wonderful

:57:24.:57:28.

time of the year. I am looking forward to relaxing after a busy

:57:28.:57:32.

session. What would you like to see the assembly achieve next year?

:57:33.:57:38.

you know, last March the people of Wales gave us a resounding Yes in

:57:38.:57:45.

the referendum. My hope for next year is to make sure that people --

:57:45.:57:51.

we start bringing Delors through that are made for people in Wales.

:57:51.:57:58.

-- the laws. The Government has been dragging their heels, there

:57:58.:58:02.

are still no new legislation has been brought forward. Who has been

:58:02.:58:06.

dragging their heels? I will be moving it forward and a speedy

:58:06.:58:13.

manner. Ponies, AC/DC albums and as in the

:58:13.:58:23.
:58:23.:58:25.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS