01/11/2012 The View

Hello and welcome to The View. One story dominates tonight, the

killing of David Black, the first prison officer to be murdered here

since 1993. The father of two was ambushed by gunmen, as he drove

along the M1 near Lurgan this morning. His murder has been widely

condemned. Joining me to give her reaction, Secretary of State,

Theresa Villiers. I will be discussing the wider impact of the

murder with the Director-General of the Prison Service, and we hear

from Gregory Campbell of the DUP, Sinn Fein's Raymond McCartney and

from the Sunday Times security Secretary of state Theresa Villiers

told fellow MPs yesterday that the intent and capability of dissident

republicans remain significant. As is their potential to career lethal

attacks. The Secretary of State is with me now in the studio. Those

turned out to be prophetic words indeed, didn't they, Secretary of

State? Sadly, I am afraid they did. It is a very sad day for Northern

Ireland, particularly for David Black's family. What can you say

tonight about who was responsible for today's murder? Well, it is an

early stage of the police investigation. They have made it

clear that this attack has the hallmarks of dissident republican

terrorists. But they have not, so far, been more specific than that.

I am sure that their inquiry is going to be meticulous. I am sure

they are determined to find the perpetrators and bring them to

The finger of suspicion appears to be pointing towards dissidents in

the Lurgan area. We can't be sure, but it appears to be a terrorist

attack and it is disgraceful. I welcome the universal condemnation

that has been expressed today. was clearly carried out by people

who knew exactly what they were doing. It was well planned and well

executed from their point of view. They pulled up alongside Mr Black's

car and shot him dead. Sadly, as I said yesterday, these people do

have the capability and they certainly have lethal intent. But

they will not succeed in mistake -- destabilising the peace process.

People are committed to democracy and consent as the way to determine

Northern Ireland's future. You will understand, Secretary of State,

that there will be people watching tonight to will be very concerned

for their safety, what is your message to them? I completely

understand their concerns. It is a disgrace that these terrorist

groups continue to target police officers and prison officers. I

know that the police will be doing as much as they can to protect them.

We have heard about safety concerns that officers have been raising for

perhaps the past 10 years have perhaps not been taken seriously

enough. Have not those fears been cruelly realise today? Today was a

terrible tragedy. It is vital that it is its -- investigated by the

police. I am sure that any lessons at the to be learnt will also be

carefully looked at. Can you say if it is true that in recent days, a

number of prison officers were informed by the authorities that

they would not be allowed to retain their personal protection weapons.

I have heard about this, that this has happened. I'm not aware whether

it did or not. Personal protection weapons in general are a matter for

the police service and the Prison Service to determine. The Justice

Minister, David Ford, was asked about it earlier. He said it was a

matter for the NIO. Are you saying it is not? My understanding is that

it is dealt with by police. There is an appeal system where the NIO

is involved. But at this stage, we did know all the facts. We will be

very anxious to work with the police and Justice Minister to

learn if any lessons can be learned. If there is a review under way, if

there is a possibility that police officers' may be -- purser

protection weapons and may be removed, but that not be revisited

in the light of today? As I understand it, these matters are

dealt with by the police. I am sure that they will be anxious to learn

any lessons that need to be learnt from what happened today. The

Northern Ireland Office are happy to work with them. The Prime

Minister David Cameron House condemned these attacks and says it

will not bounce people back into the violence of the attack -- the

violence of the past. Had he spoken to David Cameron? I spoke to his

chief of staff this morning to brief him. The Prime Minister is

adamant that these terrorists will not be allowed to succeed. We will

continue to bear down on them to prevent this kind of atrocities

occurring. We will work with all the community in Northern Ireland

in their effort to support the peace process and reject the

violence that these terrorists represent. We believe that there

for now. Thank you. -- we will leave it there.

It was a completely senseless attack. It demonstrates the

recklessness, the ruthlessness and the sheer deliciousness of those

who still oppose peace -- the sheer dangerousness. They are addicted to

taking us back to the dark days of the past. Police, anything, however

inconsequential it appears, if you have any information, do not

hesitate. We cannot allow these people to succeed. And we won't.

But we rely very heavily on the public and communities to do the

right thing. That was Matt Baggott talking to reporters this afternoon.

Joining me from Dublin is the Sunday Times security correspondent.

Good evening. Thank you for joining us. What you make of today's murder

on the M1. It didn't surprise me. The faction that is widely believed

to have carried out this act had come together over the past few

months, made up of the Real IRA and Republican Action Against drugs and

some people described loosely as Independent Republicans. These

people had given an impetus towards terrorism in the past year, sharing

bomb-making expertise, and also in terms of mounting and sustaining

this campaign. It appears that the secret service had been monitoring

these groups closely and in fairness to them, have -- they have

ported a number of attacks. But these groups have a significant

ambition and I think today's murder, or for as it was, was going to

happen. They have a very intent on taking life and killing someone who

they regard as a member of the British establishment. So what you

are saying is that there was an inevitability about today's attack?

The security services on both sides of the border regard and analyse

the threat posed by these groups. This particular group has expertise

and intent. And it also has the people. They are no fools. Some of

these people are recent departures from what would be described as the

mainstream republican movement. They are very much against Sinn

Fein. More than everything, it is important to understand that these

groups do not believe they will cause the collapse of the peace

process. They see themselves as almost a sub culture within society

in Northern Ireland and in the Republic. What they are trying to

do is sustain a new type of IRA organisation which will remain in

existence. It is not so much about collapsing Staudt -- Stormont, they

know that is never going to happen. Instead, they see themselves as

inheriting a tradition. When you get that sort of extremist view,

this absolute belief in their own capabilities, their own right to

engage in these actions, it is a dangerous and potent problem to

counteract. So I think it is important that people understand

that. Thank you very much indeed. The Sunday Times security

correspondent. Joining me now from London,.

Gregory Campbell, what you make of today's murder. First of all, my

condolences go out to do the Black family. In the wider context, I

think these people need to understand that whatever they do

will lead to failure on their part because remember, in a few dayss --

in a few days' time, the anniversary of the Enniskillen bomb,

which didn't work. More recently, people of the disposition of those

who carried out this atrocity carried out the Omagh bomb. That

didn't work either. So how many coffins must go down the road

before these people realise that none of their activities is going

to achieve Jass -- to achieve anything. But the tragedy for

everyone involved is that the catalogue of atrocities that you

have just recited has not worked, and yet these individuals remain

committed to their violent ways? Yes, that is the tragedy. The wider

community which stand back and have to witness the awful impact and see

the few rules on television, they do have a role to play. The Chief

Constable put it well. Somebody, somewhere knows something. Whatever

small piece of information it may be, about a car parks, or whether

travelling on the motorway, or movement so would not have

recognised a few weeks ago but thought a bit odd, somebody

shadowing Mr Black or whatever, but somebody has a few scraps of

information which could result in people appearing before the court.

We need the perpetrators in jail. Mr McCartney, how worried are you

I would like to offer my condolences to the family and

welcome the leadership shown today. We have to send a clear message,

that the only purpose served today was to plunge her family into grief.

I think that in the past, we have seen isolated incidents like this,

and they do leave behind them devastation and grief. But what we

have to do, in terms of political life, in terms of those charged

with leading society, is to ensure that all of the processes we are

involved in are seen to be successful. To what extent do you

think that then -- the continuing process at Mike Berry prison has

made officers even more vulnerable to such an attack. -- at Maghaberry

prison. It is up to those who carried out the attack this morning

to provide a rationale and justification, which I believe

there is none. I think it is noticeable that today no one has

come forward. I am not going to draw comparisons, but what I am

saying very clearly is that whatever the issues are in

Maghaberry, they can be resolved, and they should not be resolved by

what we have seen today on the motorway. Do you think security of

prison officers needs to be reviewed? I do. I had some

communication last week and also to Dave. Last week's information was

that some other people in the wider justice sector were also receiving

threats. My information is that some prison officers were taken

aside some months ago and offered some form of protection against

possible attacks, and that has not been forthcoming. So I think all of

those things, and I will be in touch with the Justice Minister

tomorrow about those issues, all of those things have to be reviewed

not in weeks, months, but in the course of the next day or two. Over

the weekend, the families of prison officers need the assurance that

everything possible is being done to protect them as they go about a

very dangerous job. But a very worthwhile job, and I'm sure Mr

Black's family would echo that. you concerned that fears raised for

the safety of prison officers in the recent past, and perhaps as

long ago as 10 years ago, have not been taken sufficiently seriously

by the powers that be? Well, I don't know, is the answer to

questions raised years ago. But I know that of much more recent

vintage, years -- weeks and months, there are concerns that issues that

were flagged up have not been acted upon. We need to get answers to

that. More important than the answers, we need to ensure they are

acted upon now. No one can say whether the provision of additional

measures or personal protection weapons would have hoped Mr Black,

but they might of the next target that is going to be out there. --

would have helped Mr Black. Whatever measures need to be put in

place, they need to be acted on immediately. Do you agree? You are

vice chair of the justice committee at Stormont, your party's spokesman

on justice. Do you think the issue for security of prison officers -

there is a security drive to get new prison officers at the moment -

does that need to be reassessed, re-evaluated by the authorities?

course. After today's shooting, people will be raising legitimate

concerns. I think the minister when he addressed this this morning, and

I know the Director-General had rested, this will be something

under constant review. -- addressed it. But we have to ensure that

whatever around the safety, we have to ensure that people are free to

work, do not fear going to work. We have to ensure that whatever the

wider... The wider issues around this issue do not deflect us from

doing our job, to ensure that people can go around their daily

lives free from attack. One final question. The individuals

responsible do not have a political mandate. You have tried to persuade

them away from violence in the past. They are clearly not live up --

listening, as Gregory Campbell has said. What are you going to do, in

Sinn Fein, to get them to stop their murderous ways? We have to

ensure that our voice remains consistent and strong. In an

increasing way, many of these groups find themselves isolated.

Tonight, we have seen off on another programme many of them

being sucked into the criminal underworld. There's a strong

message coming from nationalist communities that they do not want

them to act on their behalf. People have decided who they see as the

leaders of republicanism and nationalism, and they find

themselves isolated. That is not to say they are not dangerous and

potent, but they are small and they have very minimal support within

the community. Thank you both for joining us, Gregory Campbell and

Raymond Rock Carte -- Raymond McCartney. The Director-General of

the Prison Service of Northern Ireland, Sue McAllister, visited

the Black family is evening and joins me in the studio. Good

evening. Good evening. Thank you for joining us. You were with the

family tonight. That must have been a very difficult visit. This is a

very sad day for the Prison Service and a particularly sad day for

David Black's family. I spent time this afternoon with his wife and

his children, and his mum and dad, his sister and his extended family.

They are all absolutely shattered by what has happened. So, yes, it

is a very sad time. We are offering them our support, through the

coming days and weeks. This is a very difficult time for the whole

service, but today he is about the Black family and their grief and

how we can best support them. -- today is all about the family.

have you heard about the kind of man that David Black was? David

Black had been a prison officer for nearly 30 years. This was his job.

He loved his job. He was a family man, committed to his family. He

lived near by, his parents lived nearby. His sister lived in the

same town. He loved his church. He loved being part of his community.

What I also learned when I walked around Maghaberry this afternoon

was that his colleagues are devastated by what has happened.

The staff in the prison are in a state of shock. They are very, very

sad at what has happened. Indeed, many prisoners were very sad at

what has happened. David Black was clearly held in enormous respect by

his colleagues, and by everybody with whom he came into contact

during his time as a prison officer. You have only been in post for a

short time. You took over as Director-General at the start of

July. How concerned are you at the issues which have been raised in

recent weeks, but particularly today, about prison officers

security? The security of my colleagues is an issue for me, and

has been since I took up post. Clearly, the events of today will

raise concerns among prison staff and their families about their

personal security. And I will work with my colleagues and with

colleagues in the police service to make sure that the measures we have

in place to protect our staff are proportion at an appropriate.

you know, can you shed any light on this issue which is being discussed

today, as to whether or not some prison officers have been informed

recently that personal protection weapons, which they have been

issued with, were going to be removed? I have checked, and to my

knowledge no prison officer has been told that his or her personal

protection weapon is to be withdrawn. And you would want to be

sure, would you, that no such move took place without very careful

consideration, given what happened today? Absolutely. Have you spoken

to the Secretary of State, the Justice Minister, the Chief

Constable about that today? about that specific issue. That

issue was raised with me after I had spoken to the Justice Minister

and the Chief Constable earlier today. But I will certainly be

making sure that any prison officer who wishes to have a personal

protection weapon is able to apply to the police service for, as per

our procedures. 41 dissident republicans are continuing with

their dirty protest in Maghaberry. How much more difficult does this

murder make finding a resolution to that dispute, do you think? That

remains to be seen. We are not clear yet what the connection is,

or indeed if there is any connection between the protest at

Maghaberry and the tragic events of this morning. Clearly, the police

investigation will identify any possible connections. However, the

dirty protest, as you call it, at Maghaberry, is an operational

matter, in terms of how we manage it within the prison. And we will

continue to manage it properly and appropriately. You are in the

middle of a recruitment drive for new prison staff. You want to

change the culture of Northern Ireland prisons. How much of a

setback is today's murder to those plans? Again, we need to speak to

our new colleagues, our new recruits, and reassure them that we

have measures in place to make sure that they feel safe. I have made

sure that, today, senior prison staff have spent time with the new

recruits at the college and those we arrived at Maghaberry this week,

to reassure them that we are supportive of them, that we

understand their concerns, that we are sensitive to their concerns,

that nothing has changed in terms of our commitment to changing the

Prison Service, to making sure we have a more representative group of

staff and supporting our new colleagues. You have said you are

disappointed more Catholics have not applied to join the Prison

Service. This is likely to be a major disincentive today, isn't it?

We need to make sure we continue to promote the Prison Service as a

career for all sections of our communities, including the sections

that are currently under- represented. Thank you for coming

in to join us on the programme tonight. Sue McAllister, Director-

General of the Prison Service of Northern Ireland. Joining me,

Sheila Davidson and Paul McFadden. Let me suggest to you, first of all,

that many people have felt, when they heard this morning's news, as

if they had been plunged back to the worst days of the Troubles. Was

that how you felt? It certainly was a reminder of the worst days of our

past. And I also think that the way people have reacted is an

indication of how we have perhaps taken the police -- the peace

process for granted, and taken piece for granted. I think peace in

our society is something we have to work hard at. I think today's

murder was appalling. I was not surprised. I hate to say it, but I

was not surprised, given what has been happening at Maghaberry prison.

But I think as a community we face a stark choice as to whether we go

back to what used to happen in the past, or go forward. It represents

a challenge to our politicians to show that politics works here.

Sheila, how did you feel when you heard the news? Gutted, like

everybody. I spent eight years on the police authority a long time

ago. And to think... You forget about it. You move on, and to be

plunged back into it is just shocking. And I think that is what

we should all live with and remember, that it is shocking. The

phrase that came to mind tonight, just thinking about it, back to

another phrase not so long ago - unjustified and unjustifiable. That

is what this is. We have heard a lot of political condemnation. We

heard from the Secretary of State, leading political figures and the

director general of the Prison Service. What let out to you? What

was particularly significant? most interesting thing, first of

all, was the disclosure by the Director-General of the Prison

Service that perhaps prison officers had not had personal

protection weapons withdrawn. But that will reassure many people, if

that proves to be the case. But of all of which -- all of the stuff I

have heard today, I was impressed by the show of unity by the first

and Deputy First Minister has today. We saw galvanising and unification

when another constable was killed. I would like to see that other than

at times of tragedy. I would like politicians setting a better

example to a community. We should finish by looking at the wider

political landscape. Sheila, I know that both of you have been looking

at what has been happening in the United States. Lots of politics.

Politics also somewhat put on the back-burner by hurricane, cyclone,

Superstorm Sandy, whatever we want to call it. The whole political

process was almost put on ice. kind of was and it wasn't. At the

end of the day, the election and the politics, one of the things I

found most interesting, was that President Obama used the entire

event. He articulated sympathy with a young mother who had no nappies,

no formula for her child. He was actually starting to get to exactly

the kind of policies that he has been trying to promote for the last

four years and has not done terribly effectively. And yet he

has been handed an opportunity to actually be able to demonstrate

that, but in very difficult circumstances. Sheila picked out

her tweet of the week from Governor Christie from New Jersey, which was

Because actually, there is a Republican who gave fulsome support

to a Democrat incumbent. Looking at the last few days, they could

almost have wrecked President Obama's presidential bid for a

second term. In fact, he may, as a result of the way he handled this

and the acknowledgement from Governor Christie, he may have

snatched victory from the jaws of possible defeat. Do you have a

sense of how it might go on Tuesday? I have relatives in

America and a lot of them are very republican, in the sense of the Met

Ronnie part. But actually, I think there is a real grounds will back