08/11/2012 The View

Welcome to Winterbourne View. On the View tonight: The politics

of apologies - unionists want one from the Irish Government.

Victims' families travel south looking for explanations - but has

it a case to answer for the Troubles?

A "fiction too far" says the Fianna Fail leader - we'll hear live from

Micheal Martin. And an IRA apology, but no

convictions on the 25th anniversary of the Enniskillen bomb. Can the

Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone, find a new way forward for

survivors? Also on the programme: the art of

oratory - political speeches we have loved and loathed. A good

speech will make people listen. A great speech inspires them.

To discuss all of that, and to talk elections and selections, we'll

hear from two other great talkers - commentators Paul McFadden and

Adrianne Peltz. And you can, of course, follow the programme on

Twitter, that's @BBCtheview. So are apologies ever enough?

debate in the assembly left nobody in doubt about Unionists views

about the early days of the Troubles. The DUP's Gregory

Campbell pulled no punches. What we are doing is saying to Mr

Kening, to the Irish Republic's Government, you acted as a midwife

at the birth of the Provo monster that we had to deal with for 30

years. The current Fianna Fail leader,

Micheal Martin, said that the situation was confrontational.

Micheal Martin joins us live from Dublin. Good evening, thank you

very much for joining us on the programme, Micheal Martin.

Good evening. There are those, Gregory Campbell,

who feels that the Irish Government was responsible, at the least, for

partly enabling the IRA to wage war on Northern Ireland is there ka

case -- a case to answer? There is not. I understand fully the anger.

It is still raw of many families, who have suffered at the hands of

the Provisional IRA in a most grievous way. Losing loved ones.

The IRA, fundally were responsible for the murder of over 1800 men,

women and children. My basic view on this is that the people that

have to apologise, again and again are the leaders of the Provisional

IRA, those who orchestrated it, those who made the decisions in

relation to the unnecessary murder and killing of so many people.

We all know that the good -- the Good Friday Agreement has

represented a triumph of constitutional politics over those

who espoused violence as a means to resolving the issues at the heart

of the Northern Ireland situation. But Sinn Fein... Micheal Martin,

but Sinn Fein could not be clearer in its condemnation of dissident

Republican violence? I would not agree on that. I think that the

Sinn Fein have a problem in terms of credibility in attacking the

activities of the Real IRA and the dissident Republicans as they are

called, and the problem is we saw it again this week. When I was

travelling up to the funeral of David Black, a prison officer,

again, another appalling crime, I listened to, in creduality, about a

campaign that the situation that was presented over the McCartney

murder. This is at the same time that the PSNI are looking for

people to co-operate with them in finding the killers of the David

Black murder. So how can you condemn that activity, asking

people to co-operate with the PSNI, and then campaigning outside of the

headquarters and accusing, saying that dispilot you are a party of

government, that you decide who the PSNI arrest. I find that staggering.

Incredible. It undermines that point that you made in terms of

Sinn Fein's credibility in really having a strong hand in undermining

and in corn deming the work of dissident Republicans.

We cannot talk about the Wilson case in detail it is obviously a

live case. I am talking about the protests.

But as the political party, does Sinn Fein not have the right to

condemn the murder of David Black and also to protest at the arrest

of one of its members if that is what it wants to do? It does not.

It is a member of the executive. Part of the Government of Northern

Ireland. We would find it extraordinary for any justice

spokesperson or indeed a minister for justice or any leading member

of a political party in government to actually protest against its own

police. Against the police that you

underpin, that is a central part of society, that is there to protect a

citizen, there to uphold law and order, it is an extraordinary

situation to be hold. You don't have that luxury in government, you

cannot undermine your own Police Force.

You would not want to be seen, would you, in any way undermining

Sinn Fein for clearly criticising the individuals who were

responsible for the murder of David Black? It was a good thing, was it

not that Martin McGuinness stood along side Peter Robinson and

called the people responsible idiots? I accept that and welcome

that. But it is the Olster actions that

the Sinn Fein have engaged that undermine that act. You can't have

it both ways. I feel that it is actions and in relation to the

picturing of the PSNI headquarters that undermines the message that

was given that people should co- operate with the PSNI, should have

faith and trust in it. Remember, we all if you like, we invested

heavily in a new dispensation in the police. One of the great

legacies of the Good Friday agreement has been the

incorporation of the police. We have to look from outside, that the

international people who have come to look at the reforms, reforms

that were ground-breaking and act as a model for other areas of

conflict in terms of how you develop a modern Police Force.

Can I take a point where you say that Sinn Fein can't have it both

ways and suggest that the Irish Government cannot have it both ways.

It cannot condemn violence without facing up to the responsibility

that it was in some way partly responsible for the violence of 40

years ago. Do you think that there is a time to come that the Irish

authorities will say that they were wrong for do this, that, the other,

and say it should not have happened? I had a uncle in the

guard in the '70s. I know some of the problems that they faced. I

would reject a suggestion of collusion between the guardy and

the army, as has been suggested in that debate and elsewhere by others

at that time. They face many challenges, some lost their lives

at the hands of the Provisional IRA. Up until recent times. So you can

understand how we find the acquisition, that somehow we were

responsible for the activities of the Provisional IRA. Now there is a

complete analysis undertaken in the terms of the situation in the early

'60s and '70s, what transpired -- transpired there, but I don't

accept that the Irish Government was responsible for the situation

in Northern Ireland and not responsible for the heinous crimes

that the IRA were involved in. One of which that the families had to

remember today, the anniversary of the horrendous crime at Enniskillen.

So we feel strongly about that. I think it is important to put that

on the record, to articulate the position we have on that issue.

Gerry Adams, a TD n has said that the spat between his and your party

is more to do with the lek torl politics in the South than with a

concern that you have with what is happening in the North? I joined

Fianna Fail as a young student in the '80s. Because of my interest

and concern about Northern Ireland and the Ireland of Ireland and my

desire to live in harmony, peace, unity, ultimately.

This has nothing to do with the situation, I have a life-long

interest in Northern Ireland. As a government minister I have had

interaction with the North and as minister of Foreign Affairs.

But at the moment, Sinn Fein is a real challenge as far as politics

is concerned on the ground in the Republic. That is why you don't

pass an opportunity to have a go at Sinn Fein? There is no electoral

benefit whatsoever for me making statements about the North in the

Republic. That is the reality. The reality is that the economic,

social, the other issues are pro dominant. Micheal Martin making

concerned speeches about Northern Ireland will not change the

electoral dynamic. That is not the point. I feel as a Republican I

have a responsibility. I don't want to see the politics in the North

failing the people of the North. I believe that the Good Friday

Agreement was more about violence. It hurts me to see that 46% of

children born in Belfast or in West Belfast are in poverty. That

Northern Ireland still has the highest industry of poverty in

these islands. The highest level of economic inactivity of youth

unemployment. Therefore as a Republican I feel an obligation and

responsibility to contribute to that debate and to make my points.

I am not bothered about the situation in the Republic, Sinn

Fein deals with that. They deal with it robustly and competently as

well. A final question on the matter of

Sean Quinn. There are a lot of people in this jurisdiction who

take a keen interest in Sean Quinn. They wonder whether or not the

Dublin High Court was right to sentence Sean Quinn to nine weeks

in jail for contempt of court. Do you think that the High Court got

it right? Should he be hind bars tonight? I don't pass judgment on

the courts. I uphold the decisions of the courts. We have a separation

of powers in the Republic that we adhere to ridgely. -- ridgedly. We

don't interfere or undermine the judgments of the court.

We honour and respect the independence that the judiciary

have had and have enjoyed since the foundation of the state and

continue to do so. It is a sad situation. A person

that created thousands of jobs, on this island, both sides of the

border, he made a distinguished contribution, but unfortunately, I

think, he madeorors of judgment as he himself admitted. Both in the

context of the gambling relation to the Anglo-bank and the other

behaviour that the courts have adjudicated on.

Thank you very much for joining us on the programme.

Now, our apologies ever enough. In 1997 Gerry Adams said sorry for the

IRA's bombing of Enniskillen. It killed 12 people and injured more

than 60, but would the people attending the service of the at

thatth anniversary, today, feel comforted by that act of attrition?

Relatives and senior politicians were there today to pay tribute.

Among them, the Victims' Commissioner, Kathryn Stone.

Kathryn Stone, thank you very much for coming to join us on the

programme. Why did you feel it was important to be in Enniskillen

today? I think as Victims' Commissioner it is very important

for me to show respect to victims and to survivors and to show

respect for those who have lost loved ones or been injure. I was

privileged to be invited to take part in today's events.

This job was to be a huge challenge for whoever was asked to do it. Why

did you want to do it? You gave up a job in England to come and live

and work in Northern Ireland, why? Because I feel that I can make a

contribution to people who have been traumatised and who have been

made victims. That was the work that I was doing

in England. I feel that I can bring that knowledge, skill and

experience to Northern Ireland. You met many of the victims of the

Poppy Day bombing in Enniskillen, what did they say to you? I found

it the most incredibly moving and emotional experience, meeting with

the victims. It was emotional meeting with the families. They

were very keen that the event was a time to reflect, and a time to

remember. Interestingly, they were talking

about their experiences of 25 years ago, saying that for many of them

this 25-year anniversary was their same experience for them as it was

last year, the year before, after two years, after six months, and it

is just important that we remember that what has happened today, those

people live with every day. So they were clearly victims,

nobody would dispute that. On a broader canvass, how do you define

the victims of the Troubles in Northern Ireland? It is very clear

for me that the legislation is equally clear that victims are

people who have been bereaved, who have been injured, or who are

caring for people who have been injured whether that is a fiscal

injury, or a psychological injury. Do you accept there is a hierarchy

of victims? That is always the charge, that some victims are

treated better than other victims? I appreciate that there are many

people who hold that view. It is not a view that I hold as the

Victims' Commissioner. I am here to support all of the victims across

all sectors of the community who fit in the definition of

legislation. So you say that the legislation is

king as far as this is concerned. You took part in the event at

Enniskillen, you read a prayer and talked to the victims.

I did. On eight eight -- 8th May, 1987

eight men were lying in wait to attack Loughgall. Eight civilians

and one other was shot dead. If the families of Loughgall asked you to

attend a vigil in their memory, you would go? I am here for all victims.

A number of invitations come into the commission. We consider them

carefully. My job represents the victims across all sectors.

But having been here for six weeks, if you were to accept such a

hypothetical invitation from the people of Loughgall that would

immediately annoy and alienate another section of victims in

Northern Ireland who would feel that you were selling them short?

Do you accept that you have to be an arbiter in this case? You cannot

quote the legislation. You have to make very difficult value judgments

to do the job properly? appreciate that. You said that this

is a demanding and challenging role. Those decisions and judgment calls

are part of the challenges. The conversations that I have had with

people who present those challenges to me every time I meet them, I

have to be respectful of them and respectful of all sections of the

community. How should we judge the success or

otherwise of your tenure as Victims' Commissioner? I think that

the most important judgment will be that of the victims, what the

victims say. How successful or otherwise the victims feel that I

have been. I appreciate that I am accountable to ministers, but for

me, the accountability to the victims and to their Thames,

including those I have met today and the ones that I have met on my

travels around Northern Ireland in the past six months... But you know

it will be a huge challenge? Absolutely.

We watch your tenure with interest. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Still to come: A dangerous place

for a Political Correspondent, but is it the right place for an MP?

is scary... Full of snakes in the grass... The best is yet to come,

Barack Obama's promise to American in his 25-minute victory speech.

The US President has been described as the greatest speaker of his

generation, but what pandemic make as political speech live beyond

today's headlines? It has been a creed written into the founding

documents, declared the destiny of a nomination. Yes, we came...

good speech makes people listen. A great speech will inspire them.

This, it is their finest hour... Ask not what your country can do

for you, ask what you can do for your country.

This was Speaker's Corn e, back in the 19th century Belfast. Orders

would come here to persuade and to cajole the crowd. So what make as

good speech? You have to own the speech. You have to have a hand in

writing it. You have to understand what the speech is trying to convey.

You have to get it under your skin, so that when you stand up in front

of 1,000 people, you have to deliver it like you mean it. Free

at last! Free at last! Thank God almighty we are free at last.

Martin Luther king. The biblical quotations, the humour as well. An

incredible speech. Powerful speeches from the powerful

define a period of history, but are also living on. Talked about

centuries later. He denounced a treaty between

Britain and Ireland... Carson like Churchill would have penned his own

speeches. Speeches now are more sanitised.

They lack the element of surprise. Perhaps there is a ringing phrase

there, but it is thought up by some Oxbridge graduate on your team.

Whereas with Gladstone, Redman, with Paisley, with Wee Joe, it was

something within themselves. Theres were speechs that did touch

points for Ed Miliband. It got him a bounce in the polls, some called

it a game-changer. Was it? I don't think so. If the

political journalists and the commentators get what the person is

trying to say, they then actually act as the ambassadors.

That means media disaster when it goes wrong.

Could somebody turn off the lights, please.

I am blinded... That problem is rare these days as the experts take

control of the events and the message.

Now it is so artificial. I have seenmph and Barack Obama. They come

into the auditorium with up to 3,000 people, pointing. There is a

person they have gone to high school with, they are pointing to

nowhere. It is false, but this is how they are done. There is little

improvisation. We should never, never, never... Yes, that kind of

freedom from perhaps our most famous orator seems long gone and

Stormont is a far cry from street oratory.

The department failed to consider the impact of welfare reform...

Such sums, to see fit as any expenditure in connection with

APD... The original intention of the minister in clause two, page

two, line 32... Stormont's lack of opposition may be stifling the art

of the speech, but it remains a vital weapon. Especially in the

battle for the most powerful job in the world.

It defines people. You can see it in the United States, over Obama

versus Romney. The phrase that makes the headlines in the

following day. The pithy phrase, something that

Abraham Lincoln understood his famous address at Gettysburg was

just two minutes, but lasted two centuries.

Some of the finest speakers that the political world has known in

that report from Martina Purdy. A few who may also still have a thing

or two to learn. Let's hear from our two

commentators, we have joining our regular face, Paul McFadden and

Adrianne Peltz. Paul, let's talk about Micheal Martin. Again, no

punches pulled in his assessment of what Sinn Fein needs to do as far

as the past is concerned? I think it was a resuming of hostilities.

It was noticeable he picked up again on the theme which he began,

or launched a fee weeks ago, being critical of the record of the

Northern Ireland Executive and Sinn Fein given the role on the

executive and talking about the record in West Belfast, which has

to hit home with the Sinn Fein as a party and presumably the electorate

in West Belfast as well. One of the highest cities with the highest

problems of poverty in nearly. It would have you believe he is being

ignanimous. That there is no mileage. I think it is a battle for

the hearts and the minds of the Republicans in Ireland. It is

battle-on. They are very much neck and neck?

Recently, Micheal Martin and Fianna Fail overtook Sinn Fein.

Fianna Fail went up four points, Sinn Fein down four points? I think

he could not have foreseen that a few months ago. So there is a keen

battle fought between the two. Adrianne, about Kathryn Stone, the

first television interview for her as the capacity as the Victims'

Commissioner. Were you struck by what she had to say? I think that

Kathryn Stone hit the nail on the head in terms of respecting victims

and sure vievors. She is the right person to take forward the process.

But it will be challenging? Absolutely. For anyone to do it is

a challenge. Paul, a word on the Moment of the Week? Money? The

announcement that �200 million of extra money if the politicians here

were doing nothing about the current financial predicament, we

would be down on them like a tonne of -- tonne of bricks, so they have

done something on the credit side, but to say I was underwhelmed is

wrong, but I am not hugely impressed by it. �200 million is a

drop in the ocean given the problems that we face, but there

are interesting things in the announcement, that of 500 extra

places, I would love to see them come to Derry.

Well, is it OK, is there a question for the MP to swap the benches of

Westminster for the Australian jungle? Well, MP Nadine Dorries

seems to think it is. We sent Gareth Gordon to the closest thing

we have to our jungle, to test the opinion on Street View.

It is scary... And full of snakes in the grass... And creepy things...

Just the place, then, for an MP! Have you heard the story on the

news about the MP who is going to take part in I'm a Celebrity, Get

Me Out of Here? Yes. What do you think? I don't think it

is important for her to be on TV. She is not representing the people

properly. He is having a party in the jungle. Is she donating the

money to somebody? Or donating it to charity.

Is there a local MP you would like to send into the jungle? INAUDIBLE.

Could you see Paisley and Gerry Adams and some of them, Martin

McGuinness, lining up in the jungle? Could you? It would be

funny. Good to watch. That would be good TV.

So, should Nadine Dorries have gone to the jungle, Adrianne? I am not

Nadine's biggest fan. I will not lie. Although I am looking forward

to seeing a softer side to Nadine and doing Bushtucker trials.

A lot of people think it is the best place for her. She is in a lot

of trouble when she gets home? would be appalled if it was my MP

going off to do this. I would say that there are a few Tories happy

to see her sucking her teeth at a few scary animals. Adrianne, what

is the treat of the week? It is the amazing picture of Barack Obama, it

has smashed all social media records this week, with incredible

emotion. He tweeted: Four more years.

Absolutely four more years. It has been tweeted00,000 times. 3.5

million on Facebook. It underlines what the campaign was about. It was

about social media. Getting out to young people. Teting them to vote.

It has been fantastic. Paul, the tweet of the week is not

unrelated -- unrelated? Yes, it was born out by my tweet of the week a

texter on BBC Radio Foyle who said: Listened to Obama's victory speech,

not a mention of Derry. He is out of touch.

I agree with that. Are you surprised he did not

mention Derry hiv? Appalled. I demand a re-count.

Adrianne? I think to watch this week we need to watch the Chinese

leader selection it kicked off today. Seven days of the party

conference. 2,000 delegates. I will be watching closely. We have a lot

of Chinese students in Northern Ireland. I think that Northern

Ireland has a big part to play in getting to know what Chinese

students need. A big contrast between the

selection in China and the election in the United States for sure.

Paul, a final thought on what you are looking forward to? The SBLP

conference that happens tomorrow and the day after. It will not last

for seven days. We hope that they get the lighting

correct. That is it from The View.