03/10/2013 The View


03/10/2013

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Avenue in danger of becoming Drumcree mark two?

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Nearly three months on, this is the night the reality and there is no

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sign of an ending any time soon. 5,000 jobs and £300 million of

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investment in jeopardy at the Maze/Long Kesh site. The

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construction industry tells this programme it's frustrated by the

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stalemate. We want to see the economy growing,

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we want to see the economy rebalanced, and these projects are

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vital to that. And joining me with their thoughts,

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vital to that. our regular pair in Commentators'

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Corner, Professors Heenan and Wilford. We'll also have the view

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from our man on the hill. I have the real view of what is

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going on at Pier. And you can, of course, follow the

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programme on Twitter - @BBCtheview. So, another week and another row

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over the future of the Maze/Long Kesh project. Martin McGuinness told

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the Assembly there can be no further development on the site unless the

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agreement to build a peace centre is fully honoured. In August, Peter

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Robinson withdrew his party's support for the centre, claiming it

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lacks the necessary consensus to move forward. In a moment, I'll be

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talking to the chief executive of Co-operation Ireland, Peter

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Sheridan, the Sinn Fein MLA, Gerry Kelly, and the MP for North Belfast

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and deputy leader of the DUP Nigel Dodds. But first, let's hear exactly

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what the Deputy First Minister had to say on the subject earlier this

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week. As everybody knows, there is a

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programme for government commitment and we have received a letter of

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offer for 18 million from the European Union to complete the

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project. The withdrawal from our partners in government is deeply

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disappointing. The combined efforts partners in government is deeply

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of the Ulster Unionist party in mounting a campaign were deplorable.

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The inability to honour a programme for government commitment has

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created very significant difficulties for me as Deputy First

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Minister. The peace building and conflict resolution centre always

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wanted to be a symbol of a new future where space is opened up for

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dialogue and reconciliation between future where space is opened up for

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our people. It was the jewel in the crown of the Maze/Long Kesh site and

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will undoubtedly be a tourist mecca. Sadly, the agreements that have been

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made have not been honoured. Martin McGuinness speaking in the

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Assembly on Monday. Peter Sheridan, how do you think the MLK issue has

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been handled by our politicians over the past month? I think it is

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understandable in many ways that way you have ethnic political parties

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that there are always going to be those divisions about such critical

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issues as the Maze/Long Kesh. I had the benefit of talking at length

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about some of the projects, including the World Trade Center,

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and he was also the architect in the Jewish Museum in Berlin and the

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German museum in Dresden. In all of those projects, he said he had the

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same conflicts. In the World Trade Center, when he was developing the

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site, the police, the fire department and the FBI also allowed

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because some of them said, unless we rebuild this place the way it was,

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it will be a shrine to terrorism. Anybody who has visited the site now

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will know that is not what happened. There is a job of work to do to

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persuade people why this will be of benefit and will be an international

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persuade people why this will be of peace centre, but it will require us

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to persuade people and I don't think that persuasion comes easy. Has

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there been a failure of political leadership? It is a failure of a

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lack of vision of what this site was going to be. I could have had the

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same views as other people that this going to be. I could have had the

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would be a shrine to terrorism. Because of your past as a senior

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peace officer? It is an automatic reaction. Somebody involved in the

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death of my loved one is going to be remembered in a shrine at Maze/Long

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Kesh. But when I listened to the architect, I got convinced

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otherwise. The possibility that we might become outward looking and we

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may be able to help in other conflicts around the world in what

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we learned here. Perhaps that vision has not been given to people enough

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so that they can make judgements so they have come to a natural

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conclusion at the start. Nigel Dodds, I interviewed him a month ago

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and he said precisely what he said on the occasion that Peter Sheridan

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spoke to him. Why is it that many within the Unionist family have not

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picked up on that? Is it because they have not heard it? Or they

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don't want to believe it when he says it? It is the fact that there

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is not a consensus in support of the peace Centre at the Maze/Long Kesh.

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It is a fact that conference has been undermined by events of this

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year in particular. I think that the reality is that unless you have

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consensus, a piece site like that becomes a cause of division. And why

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has that come about? It has come about despite efforts to move

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forward because of the very bad about despite efforts to move

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situation it created in and around the whole issue of the past,

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particularly, and I listened to Martin McGuinness talk about the

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difficult position he had been put in, what about the difficult

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position a lot of the victims, people that Peter has mentioned and

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families of those victims and people who served and innocent victims, who

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have had to listen to Martin McGuinness and his friends and Jerry

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Kelly yet wallowing in the filth of violence -- Jerry Kelly here. They

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have never said that is what they want the Maze/Long Kesh project to

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be. People say we must have a shared future, and yet rather than moving

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forward, and they lecture everybody else about moving forward, going

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back over a number of years now of else about moving forward, going

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glorification of terrorism, of violence, of murder. Even people in

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the Catholic community. I think people have seen a scenario painted

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out here when they say, how can we trust these people because what they

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are really about is glorifying their murderous past? Not some kind of

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are really about is glorifying their glorious campaign but murder, pure

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and simple. How can someone like Peter Sheridan can be persuaded that

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the project would not pH Rhine to television -- terrorism and yet

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the project would not pH Rhine to others can't? Everybody will

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approach it from their own personal perspective and I respect that,

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because I respect the views of wide swathe of opinion, but in Northern

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Ireland, as political leaders, and it is leadership to actually listen

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to people and respond to the concerns, and if you don't have a

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consensus across a broad spectrum of the community, even though Peter May

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says what he says, he has got to respect that many people disagree.

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We have got to take all of that into account. There is an absence of

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consensus. How do you respond to Nigel Dodds's charge that Sinn Fein

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has been indulging in, amongst other things, the glorification of

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terrorism and violence? I need to answer a lot of what he says. Let's

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deal with the issue he mentioned a lot of times there. When unionists

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talk about respect and the community, their community, we have

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had consensus. There was actually a group set up that was actually led

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by a member of the party, it was a part of a programme for government

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which means all the parties had agreed to it. But... Let me finish

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my point. The problem was that there was a consensus. He was part of it

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and the lack of leadership came when he withdrew from it. That is what

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has happened here. You asked earlier on, is it a lack of political

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leadership? Of course it is. But it could be a lack of leadership on the

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part of Sinn Fein. It could be what you said. Do you know what I said? I

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was there. Could you even give a summary of what I said. It is not

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about what I think you said. If you are going to talk about my speech,

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about what I think you said. If you do you even understand what it said.

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The point is, the perception in certain sections of the unity was

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that it was controversial. Nigel Dodds speaks about respect. All of

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these attacks are on the dead. That is way he does not have the respect.

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Unionists do not even begin to understand that people have suffered

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death deserve commemoration. It was a commemoration for two dead IRA

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murderers in a place where 29... Two dead people who have relatives and

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families who love them. I have stated a fact. And yet he does not

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like to hear the facts. The reality is that 29 people were killed and

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that parade passed away two of them were murdered by the IRA and he

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stood up, and this has been said by many moderate nationalist people,

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appalled at the fact that he goes there, from North Belfast, to

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glorify to murderers in 2013. There was no glorification involved. There

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is a difference between glorification and remembrance. There

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was a dignified remembrance of the glorification and remembrance. There

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two volunteers who died... But you glorification and remembrance. There

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are never going to persuade Nigel Dodds it was a dignified

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remembrance. This is the point. It is the point for Nigel Dodds. When

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you get people like Gregory shouting across at Raymond McCartney and

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calling him a field hunger striker without a word... The reality is,

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you are here tonight to make an equivalence between dead murderers

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who fought a terrorist campaign and those in the security forces and

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innocent people. You will not get away with it. You will not be able

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to equivocate that. We will come away with it. You will not be able

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back to this. That is a decision we may develop in a moment or two.

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Peter Sheridan, this is also about jobs. There is an investment of £300

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million potentially in jeopardy and 5000 jobs. Taking it out of the

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immediate political cut and thrust, that has a big impact on the

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Northern Ireland economy and on people who live here. Of course it

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has. The potential to lose jobs is real. It is a 300 acre site so I

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guess there is that possibility. Some of their worries I have on this

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is that I said at the very beginning we have ethnic political parties,

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people championed their own sites, and I think there is a vast majority

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of the population that want us to get to a stage where our politicians

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start to say what they are going to do for the other side. Not simply

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what we want for our own side. If we genuinely want a shared hooch and a

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shared society, and I believe they both want that, future, what is -- a

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shared future, what is Unionism both want that, future, what is -- a

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going to do that is going to protect the cultural identity?

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Stay with us. Do you have any degree of optimism after what you have

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heard that we are any closer to that The Yes. Let me tell you why. The

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Good Friday Agreement was a political deal about structures and

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processes. The next 25 years of this process is, how do you underpin the

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political deal by normalising process is, how do you underpin the

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relationships? Three years here people lived where their neighbour

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was their enemy. We now have to learn to live together. That is

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going to take time. I think it is easy to point the finger at

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politicians, but this is a difficult place to be. The fact there are

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three people from different backgrounds here tonight is progress

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and it will take time, but it will take support to politicians from the

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public. We will hear more from you later in

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the programme. Tonight, as they have done every other night, Orangemen

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and their supporters advert at Twaddell Avenue for the protest. It

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has resulted in what has been known as camp Twaddell. Orangemen told him

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they are prepared to stay there for as long as it takes.

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The seasons have changed, but in this corner of North Belfast, not

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much else has. Every night is the 12th of July. At Twaddell Avenue

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they refused to move on. The symbols of defiance fly proudly at the

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self-proclaimed live writes camp. In a humble Portakabin sits the banner

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of the true blues to one of three North Belfast Orange lodges the

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commissioner said could not parade home by their chosen route on the

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evening of the 12. It is not a question of the route.

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This has been put across many times. It is not a question of the route,

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there are no other roads that we can go along. It is all right saying we

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can go a different way, but they're only is one-way. How long are you

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prepared to stay here? As long as it takes. I am prepared to stand here

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as long as it takes in a non-violent way. If I have to stand to 24/7, I

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will. Why should we let them take our culture of us? The Catholics get

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all they want. That is true, all right. As far as I can see. I know

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it is true. But there is another view, the one

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from across the street. What we should have now in the

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autumn is a parade of relative calm. This is the time that the Orange

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Order need to settle down. I'm not going to get into negotiations in

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public, I think that is a thing for the Orange Order and local residents

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to sit down to do in an honest and open way. They may think there is no

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point in sitting down because you will never agree to a parade. I

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think everything is up for discussion. Let's sit down and put

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things on the table. Darkness falls in the police cordon

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at the top of the road is manoeuvred into place. Soon it is barring the

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way as the banner is brought from the camp to head the nightly parade.

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But this time, instead of confrontation, the parade wields

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But this time, instead of into a side street to emerge again

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moments later. We also catch sight of two youths wearing mass. We never

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discover why, the Pope -- protest remains peaceful throughout.

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discover why, the Pope -- protest Nearly three months on, this is the

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nightly reality in Twaddell Avenue Nearly three months on, this is the

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and there is no time -- sign of it ending any time soon. As the banner

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moves forward, the band follows with its identity hidden. Last week the

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commission found the playing of music along this stretch of road.

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The police warnings are ignored and on the other side the traffic moves,

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but few people have come out to watch the nightly ritual. Myself and

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many locals have volunteered every night to walk the streets on this

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site to keep young people away from reacting to what has been happening

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on the other side. It has been a very strange experience. Almost like

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a return to the old days? In a sense, history repeating itself and

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the sheer waste of time and energy for everybody involved is costing

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£29 50 per minute. One day we could have had Gareth bail playing for the

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local football team because it is very hundreds as pounds per week.

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You can smile at that, but when you think of what that could be in terms

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of 100 police being recruited, more nurses, more doctors, more teachers,

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just as she awaits itself is something that is having a

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detrimental effect on the whole of society not just Ardoyne.

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In camp Twaddell the talk is of possibly stepping up the protest.

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At every stage it has been other people that have escalated and upped

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the ante, not us. The time may come when it is up to the people in this

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area who support us to up the ante and extend what is happening. How

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would you do that? That is to be decided. That is not the official

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line. But it appears the supporters are dug in for a long hard winter.

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Nigel Dodds, should these nightly protests continue? The right of

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peaceful protest, it is important they remain peaceful and

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non-violent. People want to express their opposition to the parades

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commission and what they have done in rewarding violence because the

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Orange Order acted entirely peacefully for years and years.

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There has been discussion and dialogue and what happened was,

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severe republican violence, the police commission rewarded that by

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banning the Orange Order and people have reacted angrily. And that is

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banning the Orange Order and people worth the cost? I want the

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commission that in taking such decisions they were not just in

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pairing a cost, but a cost to the police. Nobody wants to see this.

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The responsibility lies with those who want to reward Ireland's

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unpunished good behaviour. No response -- no responsibility on the

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people taking part? None of those pictures gave you any concern? I

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have been there and I do not want to see people running around in

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balaclavas. We saw two people. You can't be responsible for everybody.

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I know for a fact, let me finish, we have had a peaceful protest that has

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I know for a fact, let me finish, we been going on for a 85 days. The

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vast majority of people are there openly displaying who they are, what

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they stand for, it has been non-violent and not threatening. It

:22:21.:22:26.

is continue that way and have common sense in terms of moving this

:22:26.:22:32.

forward. The recent initiative had a knee jerk negative reaction, that

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should have been responded to positively. Let's get into dialogue.

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Common, Gerry Kelly? It was a precondition which says that we will

:22:43.:22:48.

talk to you as long as we get our way first. The decision has already

:22:48.:22:53.

been made about the 2013 parade. Let's talk about the 2014 parade.

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There are people disguising and breaking the law and not only

:22:59.:23:06.

playing music, but masking up. Nigel says that there is no intimidation,

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I know that there is practically nobody who will go down to Tesco's

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where they normally shop. Why not then say, Saturday morning go ahead.

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What is the problem with that? Read this -- read the statement, they

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want to parade the parades commission. They should be no

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surprise to you or the visit -- viewers talking about the parades

:23:35.:23:39.

commission. They were against it from the beginning. Let me put it

:23:39.:23:42.

commission. They were against it this way, the dispute is 150 yards

:23:42.:23:47.

down the road, so you have to as a question, why do they bring it up to

:23:48.:23:54.

an interface, a well-known interface, to raise tension when

:23:54.:24:00.

that is not the issue? Why go there if you don't want trouble? A quick

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that is not the issue? Why go there response, Nigel Dodd. It is a

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Unionist area where people have come out for many years to support the

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Orange banner. It used to be a shared space and that is where they

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Orange banner. It used to be a gather and give support. That is a

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natural point. You don't think that either of you owe it to yourselves

:24:24.:24:28.

and to people watching this programme to try to come up with

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some sort of sensible solution to save Northern Ireland £300,000 per

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week? I know discussions have not got far, but when they don't reach

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agreement, somebody has to make a decision. There was dialogue before

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the 12th of July. There was a statement made from all of those

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involved, including the Orangemen, that they would return no matter

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what the commission decision was. You told is five minutes ago you

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were optimistic the. Are you still? There is a big section of the

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population, we can't dismiss the concerns of the people in Ardoyne as

:25:16.:25:19.

residents or people who want to finish the parade, but there is a

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big part of Northern Ireland, we heard of 1000 jobs being announced

:25:24.:25:28.

today and sometimes we overemphasise one part of a problem. We focus on

:25:28.:25:37.

symbolism that is, perhaps, is important at a superficial level.

:25:37.:25:40.

What is more important is our values. Thank you to the three of

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you for joining us. Let's get some analysis of what we

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have heard from our resident professors, Deirdre Heenan and Rick

:25:51.:25:57.

Wilford. Let's talk about Maze/Long Kesh first of all. Deirdre, we close

:25:57.:26:02.

to a resolution? As the pause button been pressed all the stop button? I

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don't think there is much to give as optimism, but we shouldn't be

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surprised that the issue of conflict resolution centre is going to be

:26:11.:26:15.

contentious. It was always going to be. One of the issues is around the

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fact that how it happened, the DUP U-turn is indicative of the mistrust

:26:22.:26:27.

that is now they're between Sinn Fein and the DUP. It would be wrong

:26:27.:26:29.

to dismiss a genuine concerns of Fein and the DUP. It would be wrong

:26:29.:26:31.

victims groups. Those are genuine Fein and the DUP. It would be wrong

:26:31.:26:37.

concerns and I think as Peter said, what we need is a compelling vision

:26:37.:26:42.

for this peace Centre that will lift it above Northern Ireland politics

:26:42.:26:46.

and move it into a much more international context about the

:26:46.:26:49.

future and how we can frame a future for Northern Ireland and other

:26:49.:26:57.

countries can learn from us. Rick? I suppose it was so dispiriting that

:26:57.:26:58.

it makes a case for the piece suppose it was so dispiriting that

:26:58.:27:02.

centre. We need a venue where issues like this, history is not one set of

:27:02.:27:09.

views, it is a set of competing narratives running parallel, they

:27:09.:27:13.

merge, they collide. We need something like the piece centre. I

:27:13.:27:19.

thought the words in the assembly this week were spoken more in

:27:19.:27:23.

sadness than in anger. I have to say, and I am not from here, but it

:27:23.:27:26.

does seem to me that building on the say, and I am not from here, but it

:27:26.:27:29.

past both literally and say, and I am not from here, but it

:27:29.:27:34.

metaphorically at Maze/Long Kesh has a lot to commend it. We heard

:27:34.:27:38.

tonight the police say they will re-examine the transcripts of Gerry

:27:39.:27:46.

Adams and his brothers sex abuse trial and it has emerged that Gerry

:27:46.:27:50.

Adams learned about the abuse my news before he informed the police.

:27:50.:27:54.

How much damage has a potentially done to his leadership of Sinn Fein?

:27:55.:28:01.

I think it cast a shadow over his morality, but not political

:28:01.:28:04.

leadership. In a week or so this will be largely forgotten about. I

:28:04.:28:09.

think the real person who has suffered here is the individual

:28:09.:28:13.

herself, a very private issue was bought public stage and her washing

:28:13.:28:17.

has been put out in public and she is a person who will have to go away

:28:17.:28:21.

and live with this and make a life for herself. This is the person I

:28:21.:28:27.

feel sorry for. A lot of people have expressed that sentiment.

:28:27.:28:33.

Absolutely. I could not agree more with Deirdre. She is a person in the

:28:33.:28:36.

centre of this set of events, but the fact that he is and I will

:28:36.:28:41.

reopen the file and have another look suggests that this issue will

:28:41.:28:45.

not go away. It could come back to haunt him. Will it damage, is that

:28:45.:28:53.

possible? Electorally, I suspect not. Carriages are being pulled

:28:53.:28:57.

around to make this a personal matter and I think there is a

:28:57.:29:01.

political dimensional to this and it could damage him, but I don't think

:29:01.:29:03.

it will lead to his demise from public life. There were commentators

:29:03.:29:10.

saying if it was any other political leader, it could be the end of the

:29:10.:29:16.

road. Some of the papers describing him as a great Teflon man who can

:29:16.:29:19.

walk away from issues like this, and I believe he will walk away

:29:19.:29:24.

relatively unscathed. We will look at one tweet. Just before we go,

:29:24.:29:29.

Neil Dougan tweeted: at least we can still laugh at

:29:30.:29:47.

ourselves. The sense of humour in Northern Ireland is alive and well.

:29:47.:29:53.

I think Peter made a very good points in focusing on the bigger

:29:53.:29:57.

picture and the jobs announcement today and the prosperity that could

:29:57.:30:02.

come if we get our act together. We will leave it there. Let's pause

:30:02.:30:06.

before we go for an alternative view from the Hill.

:30:06.:30:18.

Storm on security here. Rushed off my feet as usual. Today is a little

:30:18.:30:27.

bit wet. Do you like the huts? This is where the Tory party conference

:30:27.:30:31.

held their Northern Ireland debate. I'm only joking, it was a lot

:30:31.:30:37.

smaller than this. Well done Northern Ireland, we won

:30:37.:30:43.

something! Not football, don't be stupid, Northern Ireland is the

:30:43.:30:46.

counterfeit capital of the UK. When it comes to dodgy fakes, we are

:30:47.:30:51.

tops. Meanwhile Republicans are being pig-headed in role in the

:30:51.:30:54.

tops. Meanwhile Republicans are entire country. Not our Republicans,

:30:54.:30:58.

American Republicans. Our Republicans are more interested in

:30:58.:31:03.

why the Giro d'Italia is not go past Republicans are more interested in

:31:03.:31:08.

my house. Anyway, anyone who can't wait for the experience, get

:31:08.:31:13.

yourself an exercise bike, sit on it for 82 days going nowhere and you

:31:13.:31:16.

will know what it feels like I'm Twaddell Avenue.

:31:16.:31:25.

That is it from The View this week. Inside politics is on radio Ulster

:31:25.:31:31.

tomorrow at 6pm. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11:45am on Sunday. Thank

:31:31.:31:35.

you for watching. Goodbye.

:31:35.:31:38.

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