05/12/2013 The View

Tonight, more Nelson Mandela's death. We look back at the influence

he had on Northern Ireland politics. Also, Tonight, the damning findings

of the Smithwick Tribunal that Gardai colluded with the IRA in the

murders of two top police officers. We'll have reaction from politicians

and a former head of RUC Special Branch.

Joining me in Commentators' Corner tonight, Susan McKay and Liam

Clarke. Plus the view from our man on the hill. And you can, of course,

follow the programme on Twitter - that's @BBCtheview.

First tonight, the news that not a Mandela has died. He was 95 and

South Africa's first black president. After 27 years in risen,

he left -- left the country -- lead the country from white -based rule.

He had been receiving care in hospital. In a statement, the

president, Jacob Zuma, said Mr Mandela had departed and was at

peace. We have been looking back -- back at his remarkable life.

When Nelson Mandela walked free from prison, Northern Ireland was still

locked in violence. But those steps he took towards a peaceful future

inspired others to follow his path out of conflict. He has always been

an inspirational figure in my life. I have no doubt that many others,

even outside of Sinn Fein, recognise his worth as a human being and a

leader. If someone who inspired -- he is someone who inspired not only

his own people but many others, like us, recognise that even in the

darkest times, many good things are possible. He used his position as

president to build peace, and Gerry Adams when he was still a political

pariah for some. So this was one powerful handshake. We fully support

the peace process. We will do everything in our power to support

all the parties engaged in the search for peace. We have got the

ability to resolve problems. True to his workmen Mandela's South Africa

offered an escape from the pressures of the peace talks.

Disrespect for their point of view, coupled with his famous charisma,

soon won over Unionists. -- fests respect. He said something profound,

which was you don't make friends with your friends, you make friends

with your enemies. One had the expression of a fully rounded

personality. He also had a good sense of humour. Again, it fits in

with that persona. Obviously there sense of humour. Again, it fits in

was a keen intelligence there as well. He was fully aware of the

contribution he had made. His only appearance in Belfast, however, was

on a wall. He did visit Dublin a few times, grateful for help in fighting

apartheid. The 1980s, South African goods were not available in this

store. We are asking people to go on strike and not passed the picket

line. The more people that pass, the longer we will be here. In Belfast,

some students protested against apartheid. It wasn't quite

unanimous. Some people will have had their doubts about Mandela and

thought it was a terrorist. For most people, he was seen as a very

powerful figure, very inspirational, somebody who led his people and

tried to lead his people to peaceful resolution. When he was given an

honorary doctorate in 2008, he was too frail to attend the ceremony but

made a special message and thanked students for their support. My

grandchildren will be impressed when I can boast an honorary doctorate

from such an esteemed institution. He was, in the words of one

nationalist politician, not just a friend to Northern Ireland but a

friend to the world. I'm joined now by Adrian Gallagher,

a former professor of other tics -- of politics. Of remarkable man, and

obviously people feel that in South Africa but you can see the global

response. I was in South Africa on the 18th of July of this year, which

was his birthday. The outpouring then was quite extraordinary. The

affection for him in South Africa runs across all political lines. He

had a remarkable place in South Africans' hearts. You will have

watched the outpouring of grief this evening in the last hour two. And

that of the back of several months of knowing the inevitable was

coming. Yes. As an example of somebody who promoted

reconciliation, he obviously resonated with a lot of people. His

self-sacrifice... Not only that he spent so many years in jail, but

even more incredible is that he spent just one term as president of

South Africa. He could have gone on to be president until his death, but

he decided, and it was a characteristic of Mandela that he

was a strategic thinker, he decided it would be better for the

transition Nikki Kidd quit after only one term of this -- if he could

quit after only one term of office. It is possible to overplay his

significance in the politics of Northern Ireland. But how

significant was here in shaping the approach to reconciliation?

Eventually he was quite important. But it did not start out promising.

Early on, he gave an interview with Bob Geldof in which he put forward a

straightforward anti-colonial view of Northern Ireland. It was odd

because he was such an admirer of political institutions in

Westminster. He came out with the idea that it was legitimate for

people to struggle for a united Ireland. He was also a realistic

advocate of negotiation. Once the peace process started, he was fully

on board for helping the peace process. The fact that he enjoyed

the trust of Sinn Fein is really quite important. He was always

assisting them towards negotiating a deal but recognised the limits of

their position. Was that an important influence that he had in

moving Republicans away from their support for terror? I think so. He

helped members of Sinn Fein who wanted to go that way. He helped

Sinn Fein leaders who were inclined in that direction so he was useful

to the leadership of Sinn Fein in persuading the rank and file but

this was the way to go and that they were not selling out the

revelation. -- that this was the way to go. Lord Trimble also referred to

his deep intelligence, his obvious intelligence, and his sense of

humour. That is never bad thing in politics. A self-deprecating sense

of humour. He was a person who was very self-aware. I think he had an

ability to look outside himself and not take himself too seriously. He

did not stand on ceremony. He could be quite tetchy as times -- at times

as well. There were times during his presidency when he got annoyed at

the NGO community. If he had stayed on another term as president, his

reputation would have suffered. In the end, he made a wise choice in

recognising that he would be a greater influence outside the

political community. Peter Robinson has just tweeted that Nelson

Mandela's death is a massive loss for South Africa and he was a true

world figure. There is unanimity of opinion as far as our politicians

are concerned. We have heard from Jerry McGahan -- Deri Adams and

Martin McGuinness. It is hard to think of anybody else who would

enjoy such support across the spectrum that he achieved. Was part

of his challenge that he put it up to other politicians? If he, after

27 years of incarceration, could come out and shake hands with his

former jailers, if he could do that, then anybody could do that?

Absolutely. One of my injury memories of Mandela was when he went

to the stadium and told the crowd there, in the middle of a very

serious fight between supporters of the ANC and the Freedom party, he

said, throw away your knives and guns. He said Terry -- he said so to

bring crowds. He took on people who profoundly disagree with his

sentiments. He was absolutely right. Fascinating to hear your thoughts.

Thanks indeed for joining us. Much more reaction to that developed in

the story later in the programme. Before that, let's pause to talk

about the story that has been leading the headlines here this past

week. Those are the findings of the Smithwick tribunal. On Tuesday the

findings of Judge Peter Smithwick's inquiry concluded that members of

the Gardai colluded in the IRA murders of Chief Superintendent

Harry Breen and Superintendent Bob Buchanan. They were shot dead in an

ambush in 1989 in south Armagh and were the highest-ranked policemen to

be shot during the Troubles. We'll discuss the issues in a moment, but

first a reminder of what led to the setting up of the inquiry, the main

findings and the fallout. The ambush, as they returned,

prompted suspicions that they have been set up by somebody in the Garda

station they had just left, a claim rejected by the Chief Constable and

Police Federation. I think that's percolation -- that speculation is

ill informed. The information we have confirms... The enquiry was set

up by the Irish government and found there had been collusion between

somebody in the Garda station and the IRA. I apologise without

elevation -- reservation. In a moment I'll be talking to the

DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson, Dolores Kelly, the deputy leader of the

SDLP, and the former head of RUC Special Branch, Raymond White.

Raymond White, you worked along the border. Were you aware of the

suspicions about collusion? I worked on the border for a short period in

the 1970s, when contact with the Garda was not of a big nature. There

was that element of suspicion which still existed in the Garda, that the

TUC were part of the problem in the north. We had individual contact

with individual officers. And not conscious of anything relating

suspicions about collusion. The judge said there was speculation and

it was an example of the prioritising of political expediency

on the part of both police forces. Effectively, a cover-up? In one

sense it can be looked at that way. But the Chief Constable of the day

did not have what you would call a smoking gun. He did not have any

hard intelligence that he could present. He had a judgement to make.

Do make an accusation that I can't support in any way? Or do I preserve

the newly formed cross-border relations? Without the evidence, I

don't think the Chief Constable that they had the capacity to say any

more. We know from records how the issue of cross-border security was

used as a political tool between the governments and it was switched on

or off. It was not the first time that we know the cross-border

conferences were cancelled because of certain things that happened in

the North. Jeffrey Donaldson, do the findings go as far as you would have

liked? In terms of the evidence presented, I think the judge reached

a very fair conclusion. I still believe that there were individual

officers against whom there is evidence of collusion and I would

have liked to have seen that more definitively in the report but

nevertheless, I welcome the fact that the judge came to a very clear

conclusion. At Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan were betrayed by one or

more Garda on that day and the information passed on as individuals

and assisted in the ambush that resulted in their deaths. He made it

clear that certain gardai might have been involved in inappropriate

relationships with the IRA but he has not been able to produce

evidence to substantiate specific acts relating to this double murder!

And others after eight years. One of the Garda named in the report, and

the allegation is that just as Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan left .doc

policed Asian, this Garda stood outside and signalled to a member of

the IRA so there is a degree of evidence and I accept the judge has

not concluded there is sufficient evidence to be conclusive in terms

of individual acts but he has been very clear that there was collusion

and that we should not detract from that. It is very serious and when

one bears in mind that the Garda Commissioner was given information

by another member of the Garda about the actions of at least one of those

who are named in the report and failed to act upon that, it raises

the question as to whether, if it had been acted upon, whether lives

might have been saved. Dolores Kelly, is this a pretty damning

report? There have been shock waves throughout Ireland. Judge Smithwick

was fearless in his approach and he has shown great independence and the

report stretches to over 1600 pages and two days later, it will not be

sufficient time to do justice in relation to its findings but one of

those findings is that the needs of victims and having the truth about

what happened should not be set against a political short-term

expediency. It took eight years and the remaining hundreds of witnesses

and this is a copy in front of us. This gives people a sense of what a

substantial piece of work it is. The fact is, it says that we know that

collusion took place. Not necessarily in the deaths of these

officers but there was collusion? It clearly says it was collusion in

relation to one, two or three Garda and that was not institutional

collusion, such as has been fined in relation to allegations... But

collusion is collusion? It is always hard to get to the truth of all of

it and in relation to trying to see that there is justice done in

relation to bringing prosecutions, it is very difficult and appeals

have gone out for anyone, even with any evidence, to bring that forward.

So the people tried these murders. Will it ever happen? If the judge

could not reduce evidence after eight years, who can reduce the

evidence? Many victims know that they will not get justice but they

want the truth and tonight we talk about Nelson Mandela and when he was

resident of South Africa, he set up the truth commission and this does

reach across to the ongoing talks with political parties with Richard

Haass and that set the standard. Jeffrey Donaldson, do you believe

there is any possibility of prosecution at this stage? It will

be difficult, unless there is any further evidence that comes forward.

What is damning about this report, and I accept what Dolores Kelly

says, I do not believe there were hundreds of Garda colluded with the

IRA, but nevertheless, first of all, the leadership of the Garda at the

time failed to act upon information that they had about the actions of

individual officers and a failed to recognise collusion in this case.

And the Garda of today failed to cooperate fully with the Smithwick

and quarry. That is not right. Dash-macro enquiry. The government

needs to look at the conclusions of this report. This is not stop with

the Buchanan case, it went further, and these issues are serious and

they need to be examined in the context of dealing with the legacy

of the troubled past. Has the Irish government apologised fully and

unequivocably and all of these issues will be the dad? -- will be

looked at. I welcome that statement. And I also welcome the commitment

they have given to examining these issues and to examine them in detail

and we shall seek to ensure that happens and they follow through and

this report is given the priority that in dotted play -- that it

undoubtedly requires. The judge said there was a culture that needs to be

addressed. We're not talking about 20 years ago, this is up-to-date and

it needs to be tackled. What do you make of the way the then Chief

Constable handle the situation? Henoch that on the head and has been

proven to be wrong? The RUC and the Garda at the time perhaps did not

have the information we have but nevertheless, they were perhaps too

quick to rule out collusion and should have been an investigation

because the allegations were made at the time. Do you think they thought

there was collusion or do this simply not want to admit that

because it could be dangerous? Do you think it was not something they

considered? At the time, there was improving cooperation between the

RUC and the gardai and it might not have been expedient at the time to

pursue further those lines on collusion but it is evident and

there was evidence given to the Smithwick enquiry by senior officers

that they were aware of the activities of individual officers at

that time so there was knowledge that there was inappropriate

behaviour by some members of the Garda and there was an awareness of

that and I can understand the Chief Constable might not have had the

information on this specific case at that time but there was a line of

enquiry that should have been pursued and it was not. Is it

significant that Dolores Kelly says this was not systemic? The old

argument, a couple of bad apples? I take issue with what Dolores Kelly

says in terms of the RUC having systemic collusion into it. That has

not been proven in any form. There were bad apples, we accept that, and

we find them out. One of the significant things in relation to

the Smithwick Tribunal is aged not begin and end with the castigation

of the Garda. Or any apology from the southern government, no matter

how hurtful. One of the key things added what I'd was the issue of how

the border itself was used by the provisional IRA to conduct its

murderous campaign. In considering that, it behoves the Irish

government to look at the other 178 murders carried out in the border

counties, where there was substantial evidence that the people

that carry these out came from the South of Ireland, carried out those

activities and returned. Uniquely, within Smithwick, the IRA made out

of their own minds a declaration as to how the border was used. Is that

a reasonable demand? We need all the parties to the truth and put the

needs of victims at the centre of any process but I take issue with

those earlier comments in terms of systemic collusion. When we look at

the findings of the Police Ombudsman in relation to the relation --

recent publication of the murder of an hundred 20 people in relation to

gangs in the mid-Ulster area. We can deal with that. What was in those

little allies was obtained from the Historical Enquiries Team, which was

obtained by RUC records. It was nothing discovered, it was already

known and those issues were on the table within the police service. I

want some time to talk about the passing of Nelson Mandela. You were

briefly in that film by Martina Purdy, paying tribute to that man.

Your leader has paid a very warm welcome to him tonight. As a global

figure who will be hugely missed by everyone. Presumably, you would not

disagree? We are very saddened by that news from South Africa and

there is no doubt that whatever Nelson Mandela has done in the past

and I do not agree with some of those things, but he did become

statesmen that rose above many others and when I met him in South

Africa it was evident that he had completed a personal journey, he had

embraced peace and embraced reconciliation. And I think that was

a very powerful factor in bringing peace to South Africa. Dolores

Kelly? One of the first actions I ever took was to join the

anti-apartheid movement at university and Nelson Mandela was

always a great inspiration to myself and one of the comments that we

should listen to is how to walk in the other person's shoes and try to

build reconciliation across this island. Raymond, you cannot say you

met him but you were at a conference in South Africa at which he

delivered a keynote address? 13 years ago, it was an international

conference on criminal reform and he opened that and he came across as a

very warm and direct individual and you really felt that what he had to

say was from the heart. He was one of those speakers that took time

afterwards to basically go around and introduce himself to people. He

left a lasting impression. It was remarkable, across-the-board,

internationally and at home, just how much he was revered. Are the

serious lessons? Can we learn from him? -- or there are serious

lessons? After 27 years in prison, he could shake hands with the people

who were responsible for having kept and therefore such a very long

period. And go on to be universally acclaimed. That is quite a trick. It

is undoubtedly, in a very divided society. And the time we spent there

was well spent, and we learned a lot. Not just from Nelson Mandela

but from other leaders as well. About the peace process, how that

operated, and we were able to apply some of those lessons to Northern

Ireland. We were still on a journey. We are still dealing with the legacy

of our troubled past and that shall take time. 30 years of conflict, you

do not remove all of the pain and hurt that has built up over that

period of time. That will require bold steps, courage and it requires

truth and justice. One of the disappointing things with respect,

you listen to the Sinn Fein leadership talking about the example

that Nelson Mandela set, but I am afraid that when I look at the

example they set, in terms of reconciliation and in terms of truth

and justice, they have some way to go. Do you accept that? I think the

comments of Gerry Adams in relation to the Smithwick tribunal have been

appalling and the people of Ireland across the island have been

displayed at his reaction to what is a very lengthy investigation which

carries a lot of recommendations and for him to dismiss that as tittle

tattle within hours of its publication does a great disservice

to the office. We need to leave that there. We did invite Sinn Fein to

take hard and that was declined. -- take part. That year the thoughts of

Susan McKay and Liam Clarke. Good evening. Let us hear the thoughts.

Let's talk about the findings. Were you surprised? I was quite surprised

by the forcefulness with which the judge addressed his task. I think it

was striking that he used a definition of collusion which was

closer to the definition which Judge Cory introduced rather than the one

used by the silver. We need to bear in mind that he was very critical of

the Garda, the way in which the Garda Commissioner and the then

Chief Constable also were dismissive of those things, and it is not just

a matter of a depressing culture of the Nile rather than just individual

gardai who got themselves involved in these kind of activities. The

reaction to Smithwick has been appropriate. People have been deeply

shocked and I think the way the Irish government has reacted has

been appropriate. It is striking that we have just one final

outstanding enquiries still to happen, for Pat Finucane, which the

British government is still denying to the family. Liam, your thoughts?

Is this as you would have expected? I did not expect that to be so

strong. I remembered at the time police denying collusion and I

thought perhaps there would be something more general. It was a

very effective enquiry and even though it took eight years, it

brought out a lot of information, more than any other enquiry that has

gone before. Perhaps more than even the bloody Sunday in quarry. A

remarkable piece of work. And he did criticise Irish society, there was a

culture of closing ranks in the face of scandal rather than facing up to

it and that is something we can learn from. The question for some

people is, can be prosecutions at the stage or not? It seems

unlikely. The longer things go one, it is less likely and we get the

occasional one. The one area where there might be one is Drew Harris,

he pointed out at the end, all the moment intelligence, and that was

never examined by the enquiry. Apparently it mentioned a gardener

who was not named in the enquiry, so it is all this possible something

will be followed up but I remember the Taoiseach saying he thought

there was a remote possibility. Is that an issue? You live and work in

Dublin, is at an issue? Prosecution is not the first thing people think

about, and in the Republic of Ireland and for a lot of

nationalists in the North as well, people note the fact that Judge

Smithwick talked about not finding a smoking gun, whereas as Laura Scali

mentioned, -- Dolores Kelly, in the Barron report, and some others of

the reports into collusion, with loyalist paramilitaries and security

forces, they have find ample evidence of smoking guns and we need

to have some sort of agreed standard on these things, we cannot ignore

some findings of collusion and welcome others. Unfortunately,

unionism is inclined to do that in relation to the culture of collusion

that has been revealed in relation to the security forces and

loyalists. Just a moment, we have more reaction to the death of Nelson

Mandela. I am joined live by the Deputy First Minister, Martin

McGuinness. He is a trade to Japan. Thank you for joining us. -- on a

trade visit. What are your thoughts? Like everybody else, this news was

not unexpected but still so sad. The world has lost a great friend, a

great statesman, someone who has made a massive contribution to

freedom and peace in South Africa. He made his own contribution through

his government and his officials to peace in the North of Ireland. We

all have fond memories of that trip to South Africa in 1997, just four

weeks after I was elected as a Westminster MP. I led a delegation

for talks in South Africa. This is a huge loss. He is a world figure, a

true statesman, someone who, yes, was a freedom fighter, also a

peacemaker, and also a reconcilable. An example to us all. I wonder if I

could just ask you for your personal reactions for the significant part

he played in persuading Republicans to move away from their support for

physical force? It is what we discussed with the professor earlier

on. He said he thought it was significant. Can you give us your

personal perspective? Nelson Mandela -- Nelson Mandela... Whoever said

that, it was a great misrepresentation. The peace process

began in the early 90s. We were very much involved in it. President

Mandela realised that a political agreement was worthy of support. He

did everything in his power, not just through our delegation is going

to South Africa in 1997 but also the massive contributions made by many

of his ministers and people coming from the other side, they all made

contributions. He had a very clear view of the underlying issues of the

conflict, issues of inequality and injustice, discrimination and

domination. They had to come to an end. He wanted them to come to an

end through a peace process. Do you think he was particularly

supportive... Sorry, we just lost you for a second. Adrian was a

mining us of the interview he did with Bob Geldof in which he

supported the Irish Rover Barbican -- the Irish Republican worldview.

He was a huge supporter of the Westminster democratic model also

and there seemed to be a contribution there. Did you feel he

was personally supportive of the way you saw things within Sinn Fein? Or

was it a broader position? I think... The world knows that not a

Mandela and the ANC were very close to us in Sinn Fein. They recognised

the struggle we were involved in for peace and justice and freedom and it

was a legitimate struggle. That was his position. He was also hugely

supportive of the efforts to bring about a cease-fire, to bring about

peace negotiations and to get a political agreement. It is clear

that he was wholeheartedly in support of the peace process and the

need for reconciliation in the North of Ireland. We have learned a lot

from him. Various people will make their own interpretations of where

he stood on all of it. I think the line has dropped. We will leave it

there. Martin McGuinness, thanks for joining us. He is in Japan with the

First Minister, on a trade mission. Let's hear again from our

commentators. Your thoughts on the death of Nelson Mandela? I think he

such a huge loss to humanity. It is the massive generosity of spirit the

man had. It was unmatched. The thing I remember most about his visit to

Ireland was when he came to the Republic of Ireland, to Dublin, he

made a point of making -- meeting the store strikers who refuse to

handle South African fruit because of the apartheid regime. That was

typical of Nelson Mandela, that he was aware of the importance of the

individual person, however lowly their position in society, the

importance of them taking a stand on principle. He was very inspiring in

that way. Interesting that he visited but -- Dublin but never made

it to Belfast. He combines fortitude, sticking with things...

He could make a break and forgive. We have not got the trick of that in

Northern Ireland, sticking with our principles yet moving on the right

moment. Thank you both very much for joining us. That is it. Join me for

Sunday Politics at 11.35 on BBC One. Well though, the by.