06/12/2012 The View

The View tonight is democracy under attack as the alliance party

offices are target in loyalist violence. We ask Nigel Dodds and

Naomi Long is there a way forward on flags. Building bridges, the

politics in lay over a controversial cross-border project.

They're scaremongering within the DUP on this project and they need

to stop. As Belfast prepares for Hillary Clinton to swing by, our

commentators, talk flags, and farewells. You can follow the

programme on Twitter: Loyalty to a flag can never been excuse to

compromise democracy, the words of the chief contable, Matt Baggott

speaking in the aftermath of street violence, before thrieg the Union

Flag at City Hall. After last night's trouble the First Minister

appealed for further street protests to be suspended. There

have been minor disturbances tonight. I'm joined by Naomi Long

and the DUP MP, Nigel Dodds. Thank you both for joining us on the

programme. Naomi Long given the furore that erupted since Monday

night, do you and the alliance party regret the stance you have

taken on plags? No it was a stance we took after long consideration.

This situation has been live since 2002, and the legal advice, the

equality impact advice and everything points to the fact that

designated days was the appropriate way in which the Union Flag should

be respected in the city. It should fly on the particular days and have

the special recognition, that Belfast is a city within the UK.

But it should reflect the fact we live in a deeply divided city where

the emblems are a contentious issue. Would community relations be better

served by leaving things as they were. Clearly certain sections of

the community aren't ready? It has taken years to get to this point.

Community relations would be better served it if there was a mature

dfrgs rather than grandstanding of those who ignored equality and want

to to persist to be taken by the courts and accept the decision

courts. I don't believe that's constructive or leadership, a

decision needed to be taken, the decision that faced our councillors

was whether we supported what the committee recommended which wasn't

the committee's advice, that would be the flag would not fly at all,

or whether we wanted to go with the amendment of equality. We proposed

designated days. What's wrong with any of that? The fact is Northern

Ireland is part of the UK, the Union Flag is our national flag,

Belfast is the capital city, we've had the flag flying there for

decades, over a hundred years, and you rightly pointed out the damage

that was done to community relation ass community interaction has been

immense as a result of this decision. Promoted primarily by

nationalist party, but wouldn't have happened if the alliance party

hadn't agreed with it. It isn't a question of affecting the flag on

the City Hall, the decision Monday night took away permanently, two

other flags in city buildings, permanently. This is a big issue

for many, many people in Northern Ireland. It is an issue that people

felt strongly about, when the consultation was held. Thousands of

people took part in the response, and said they didn't want to see

change. When the staff was consulted, they said they didn't

want change. That was ignored. Monday night, at Belfast city

council, if you are a democrat, do you not have to accept that, in

favour of the change? Of course it was a democratic vote and we have

to accept that decision, people have the right to express their

views peaceably and in a democratic way. Such as a democratic vote take

non-Belfast City Hall, we are feel that does not mean not Britishness,

Peter Robinson wants to table a motion in the assembly commission,

to ensure action is taken to taking flags in Stormont. Tit-for-tat r at

that time? Are people prepared to accept democratic vote of the

assembly commission. Why now? The whole issue about the flag over

Stormont, Parliament buildings was settled and it wasn't in dispute?

Let us be clear, I would rather within on this programme tonight,

originally when I was invited, I was asked about the Autumn

Statement, I would rather talk about jobs, successful campaign

that many of us wageed to reduce the three pence fuel duty increase,

and all of that. It is the violence on the streets derailed that part

of the conversation? The reason we're here is the nationalist

parties and Alliance Party decide today push ahead with striping the

Union Flag off two buildings in Belfast completely, and taking it

down for 90% of the days in City Hall. That's why we're talking

about this issue snafplt with respect, should we not talk because

of the violence, and an alliance, had his offices, attacked, in

Carrickfergus last night? Let talk about the first question, of course

the violence is deplorable, I have been at the receiving end of an

assassination attempt N2005, and bomb left outside my office, I know

exactly what it is to have the attacks, it is deplorable, anti-

democratic T shouldn't happen. But remember, the unionist parties,

took a lead in this, involving people, getting involved in a

democratic process and consultation, if others get involved in violence,

that is unacceptable. But, we cannot, nor should the alliance

party or democratic politicians be cowed by the threat and use of

violence by expressing democratic view. Given the experience that you,

and other colleagues within unionist politics experienced over

0 years and more of the troubles, one might have expected a little

bit less of a frosty, reaction to the alliance party's concern at its

members and its premises being attacked? There's not been any

frosty response, people have been very, very strong in condemnation,

I stood up in the House of Commons yesterday... Let me finish the

point, we have been very, very strong in our condemnation of our

violence and anyone who care yies out violence, we didn't ask anybody

to come on the streets to protest, we ask people to get engaged in

democratic interaction, get involved in the process and

lobbying progress. Have you phoned the officer, who whose offices have

been attacked? I haven't personally, a colleague of mine has, he said

when he heard unionist politicians condemned, he didn't want to hear

from them. He tweeted this afternoon that, nobody from the DUP

or Ulster Unionists, had officially contact him to express sympathies

People have been in touch, as I understand it, let me make it clear,

we are absolutely clear in condemnation of violence against

anybody. We have been on the receiving end to accept that anyone

in a democratic, political party should be the subject of violence.

That will not stop us pointing out very clearly the anger in the

community about any attempt by the alliance party and SDLP and Sinn

Fein to tear down our national flag and capital of our company.

said with Nigel Dodds with his sympathy for the alliance party?

I'm not satisfied no, it is qualified. Nigel said, during what

he said on a number of occasions, that he completely and

unequivocablely condemns the violence, it is but, it is that but

that takes the gloss off what he says. The bottom line is, violence

is wrong. And this is no longer about whether you are for the flag

over City Hall or against the flag over City Hall. It is whether you

are for democracy and rule of law or against democracy and rule of

hau. If on the side of democracy, we should be on the same side not

opposing sides, reality is no-one contacted, Stewart Dixon until

after he had drawn attention to the fact when no-one had contacted him.

I spoke to Sandra, this morning, I received no contact from anyone in

the unionist parties, about the staff or inquiry over what has

happened, for example to my council colleague, who has been driven from

her home. I have had no contact whatsoever. How concerned are you

about your security, have you had to take steps and advice? I'm not

willing to speak about my personal security, and arrangements I take.

I entered public life in full knowledge that some of the

decisions I would will so take in City Hall when I was there, is

someone holding the balance of power is difficult decisions, I

knew that when I entered public life and I'm not going to complain

about that now. What concerns me, is, that knowing that there was

violence on the streets, and knowing the anger, and Nigel said

there's a huge amount of anger and frustration out there, the DUP are

continuing to try and keep this issue on the boil. By taking out:

With the greatest respect, a clear statement from the First Minister,

Peter Robinson today unequivocally, condemning the violence. Ce there

has. "there's no excuse for violence in the righteous plaif

your we witnessed over the recent days, those who engage, do a disso

ever to the flag they claim to earn. It must stop immediately and be

condemned by everyone in the community"? He asked for the

protest to be "suspended", until when? They must stop immediately he

said? He said "suspended" that was the phrase he used today. Later

stage he talked about suspended and talks about something Nigel Dodds

talked about, which is the need to have a discussion at the flying of

flag at Parliament buildings question is suspended until what.

Peter Robinson defended the right, as is a right for people to protest

F they wish to. There are many ordinary, decent people in this

community, who come out on peaceful demonstrations and protests, about

the flag and other issues. there were people who went out the

other night and the police said there was orchestrated, turned up

with Balaclavas, and golf balls and fireworks. We know that, and a lot

is done through the social internet. We know it is happening all the

time. You've had a lot of time. reality is that Peter Robinson

defended the right of people to make peaceful protest. What about

the not peaceful protest. current circumstances people should

not come out on the streets, if you can't guarantee peace, those who

hijack decent people, they shouldn't be on the streets. That's

responsible leadership. What about your party leadership? Senior

members of your party, have they been involved at all, at any level,

in the negotiating with or talking to paramilitary leaders to get them

to back away from the violence we've seen? Wouldn't that be

responsible leadership? I'm told by the police paramilitaries aren't

organising this, I'm told by the police. The Chief Constable said

they're looking into that. We, are talking to people in our

constituencies and our comuepts, I've been talking to pastors, and

people in the community today to get things calmed down. Of course,

we are, we do that day in day out, without this issue being on the

table. Let me make it clear, we will not back down in terms of our

determination to ensure that Britishness of Northern Ireland is

not diminished, whether the alliance party, continue on this

agenda or not. We will not allow this agenda to be pushed on the

British people. Equally, I can assure Nigel the intimidation and

bullying and threats that have been leveled at our party will not

deflect us from our aim of building a future. We will not bow down to

that. The bullying hasn't been only outside on the streets. If you read

the speech from the council on Monday night she made it clear the

bullying went on inside City Hall as well as outside. We tauched on

Stormont. We will see what happens there, whenever this issue. It is

important Mark, because the reality is even in a highly emotive

situation when things are incredibly tense, instead of

allowing a call to the violence, the dull DUP are determined to take

the campaign to Stormont and create more difficulties.

What about the situation in City Hall. About the Cenotaph. In

Lisburn, the flag doesn't fly over the civic offices but flies at the

war memorial, 265 days a year. There's a suggestion that could be

a compromise at Belfast City Hall. No thrag over the dome but possibly

at the Cenotaph. Would you support that, because Myra, suggested that

may be a possibility. You are party councillor. First of all to be

clear, the proposal, about the Cenotaph is a separate proposal.

The proposal to fly the flag on designateed days over City Hall

remains. That's the decision on that issue. I understand that, what

about the Cenotaph? Not to fly over the City Hall, and Cenotaph, that

is not on the table. It will continue on the City Hall on

designated days, we will maintain that position. The issue of the

Cenotaph will be looked at by councillors in detail. We will

other, and made it clear, we are open to having that discussion,

with other councillors, we will have to look at it as a separate

issue. It will not be as a compromise over the general flying

of the flag. In the face of violence, what we would be doing is

giving way to a form of political fascism, that would be an insult to

those at the Cenotaph, fighting fascism. Let's divorce the issue,

and deal with it as a separate matter. There's debate and

discussion to come in the various chambers. Thank you both very much

for coming in to join us tonight. Now, still to come on The View:

Hillary's back to say goodbye. Why has the US Secretary of State

always had such fond words for Northern Ireland? I want you to

know, that working with the women of Northern Ireland has been one of

the greatest privileges of my lifetime. Next to a political tale

about bridge building of the possibility of a bridge Narrow

Water, has been talked about for many years. Now the projects

granted European funding, though it needs backing from Dublin and

Stormont. But doubts have been raised by the DUP, while Sinn Fein

and the SDLP say there's no reason not to back the plans. So what's

going on in the troubled waters of south Down? We have been

# I want to reach out Of the loch and feel your hand

across the water The idea of building a bridge here

has been around for generations. It will link County Louth in the

republic with county Down here in Northern Ireland. To many people it

will improve local transport links, boost tourism and business for the

area. To some the construction of the bridge will show how cross-

border relations have improved. The single-lane cabled bridge will be

660 metres long and cross Narrow water. The Sinn Fein councillor

lives close to the site. We need tourists from Carlingford coming

into south Down, and we need to get the tourists, then come from

Belfast to Newcastle and turn back. We need the tourists to come from

Newcastle to here. The bridge has a check kerd history n2007, January,

issue Government promised funding, in 2011 they changed hair mind.

Then last March the European Union said they would not fund it, in a

decision was appealed. In October, the funding was reinstated and

planning permission was grant on both sides of the border. It will

help commercial development, retail development, and tourism

development. And sustain existing jobs and provide new jobs.

Last month the First Minister, Peter Robinson called for an

investigation into the project, a move supported by the Finance

Minister. I am concerned first of all, that a project which was

initially turned down, and short listed, was suddenly short listed.

I am concerned that some of the concerns that there were at that

stage about the robustness of the figures, whether or not the jobs

would actually materialise from it, whether it would generate the

tourist income that it is claiming to do, and whether it was delivered

on time, could be swept aside. Water bridge be built This man runs

a website about Northern Ireland's roads and bridges. If you think

traffic is the only consideration, no it is not justified. If you

think building a symbol, literal bridge across the border is useful,

you think that linking two areas for tourist sincere important, then

it is justified. Purely financially, it is probably not justified.

roads minister, Danny Kennedy has had no direct involvement in this

project and like some in his party he has misgiving. He skhriebd it as

"mystery eyed" he feels it would be better to build a relief road in

Newry. But some believe building of a bridge here could benefit south

Downel. The European fund something there and ready to be used and plng

permission is in place, let's move ahead. �8 million will come from

Europe. Stormont executive and Irish Government will each

contribute �2.5 million. But money had been made available from the

Department of Finance in Belfast, if the project passes certain

economic tests. I'm interested in making sure it is value for money

and if we spend it on project eligible for grant aid. I want to

ensure there's no political stigma attached to the process.

Campaigners say for the bridge say the DUP's arguments don't add up.

They're scaremongering within the DUP about the project and they need

to stop. I have every faith this project with the will of the

community and both governments should and will go ahead.

# North and south of the river # The timescale here is tight. If

construction is delayed there's a fear the funding could be lost. If

targets are met and there is all- party agreement, this part of the

border will be transformed. Stephen scam Walker reporting there. Let

return to our main story tonight, the flags issue. Joining me are

commentators, Miss O'Connor and Sherlow. What did you make of the

debate there? It was sturdy. I was surprised that Naomi's underlying

conviction, which she must have, that this is all to do with DUP

trying to get the East Belfast seat back, that that didn't come through.

Because that must be very firmly in alliance's wings. It is ironic, to

see Alliance who has been mocked as milk and water and don't know who

they are, should be coming this for stick and standing up so strongly.

It will be interesting to see if they can continue to do that.

You have to remember, in the last week, we had the Kingsmill memorial

has been defaced and all of the social media gloating about the

flag taken down. We had the deckcal in Newry about the playground named

after an IRA member. We seemed to be going backwards, and that debate,

exemplified that. There's no Peteing of minds here, there's no

process of equality of respect and mutual trust. That doesn't seem to

be coming through any more. At one time that was strong as an idea,

but it seems to be tapeering away. I don't think that's right. This

was an attempt to create a sense of equality and respect. People in

Newry didn't do that, certainly by maintaining the name on the park

and SDLP leader of the council, or party, saying he didn't see

anything wrong with that. There was a point which people in the

peaceful assess was going in each other's histories. There was a good

period. That's what Alliance: talking about the peaceful side and

you're talking about a political party. What about people on the

streets. And perhaps on Monday night we hadn't anticipated that.

Obviously everybody is talking about that, we have a tweet here

Who said: Well, the DUP are saying, strongly now, we didn't ask anybody

to come on the streets. With the Ulster Unionist Party, they were

disseminating leaflets, fakeed up in alliance colours, telling people

to make their feelings known about the tearing down, and that's a

vehement phrase, that stirs anger, and then they say we weren't asking

people to come on the street. said when people came out on the

street, they were trying to make it peaceful? They have been doing this

for a long time, the leaflets, that was useded against the PUP, saying

they were Communiststic, there's long history to this thing. There's

a wider thing, republic, Sinn Fein, if they were to take down a name of

something out there, that boo play in the hands of the dissidents.

we will hear more from you both in just a moment or two. Thank you.

Let's move on to Hillary Clinton who is back in Ireland. She

attended a conference in Dublin today but comes north tomorrow. She

continues a whirlwind farewell tour as her role as US Secretary of

State. She's a frequent visitor, since she came here in the 1990s,

since she came here in the 1990s, Working with the women of Northern

Ireland has been one of the greatest privileges of my lifetime.

I want you to know that I will always be there as a friend and

So, a valid victory visit to celebrate or not? I think she is

probably going to run for President, and this is part of the advance CV

building up. She's looking to the Irish lobby. She's cultivateing

that sense of being in a place where she's seen as a very good

thing. After a fairly rough period of Secretary of State, head of the

State Department. And, pursuing unpopular policies, throughout the

world, to hit the soft thing of the blarnyi and Irish love, is looks

like advance building up CV. Do you Pete, we had the Mike bloom Berg

tweet, of the New York Times, talking about Mike block Berg and

he encouraged entering the mayor's race, she has a bigger office in

mind. And you know, that could be the White House, second time around,

but in the big seat this time? I think that's been an ambition for

her. If it not for her, certainly for her daughter in the future. But

Clinton family as being a major establishment still is there and

very strong. We should remember, she did a lot for our peace process,

and she knocked heads together and concentrate on moving forward.

your moment of the week? It is not a moment of the week, it is

regrettable, is the allegations of racism in Crossmaglen, and I

remember when his father played for porta down, and Newry, the abuse he

took in the Irish league, so 30 years on we're with the same

problem. Another player came out for Wexford, from an Irish Egyptian

background, saying this is going on, Irish society is changing, and I

think one of the points is, we have a problem with sectarianism, but

racism is growing. Quick moment of your highlight of the week? Well,

which really was the news that three bishopss and Monsignor,

joined the Pro-Life protesters outside Leinster House. It is the

first time, apparently, that Bishops have been on a picket or

protest line of any kind. It was a bit of a gunk to some in the south,

and some perhaps here as well who, thought the Church may have been

more MoDest at the moment, and kept off the streets of what is building

up as anti-abortion ramp. Quick look ahead, there's an overlap here,

Peter, as a political jog fer, census figures? Yes of course, very

boring life. But of course, we don't know exactly what will be in

the census, but mine will be concentrated along the secretary

fair yn head count, which will be looked at next week. It is

political and always been so. In advance of each report, people have

said you mustn't talk about it, and whip up feelings, feelings are

whipped up already, so let hope it doesn't make it worse next week.

will know what the figures are. It is the last programme in the run

next week. Thank you very much for being with us, over the past few