13/12/2012 The View

On The View tonight. You see your culture being undermind and

gradually eroded, that causes great anger, sense of alienation,

bitterness. I think that really is what has burst out onto the streets

now. Frustrated and isolated, where will the Loyalist community find

political leadership. And are we hearing mixed messages on

continuing the street protests. I will put those questions to Sinn

Fein, the dup and alliance. And the fallout from the Finucane review,

our professors are back with their views. You can follow the programme

on Twitter,@ BBC The View. We've had ten days of angry protest,

threats and violence, all since the decision was made by Belfast City

Council to stop the flag flying over City Hall on all but a handful

of designated days. Was it the cause or a symptom of a deeper

malaise? The View asked our Political Correspondent, Martina

Purdy, to take a look at the underlying mood in loyalism. Not

much peace and goodwill in Belfast this Christmas, which has seen some

of the worst Loyalist rioting for years. So why are loyalists so

angry? For what they say this is a betrayal of the Councilors in the

City Hall. They feel they are being told that they, their children and

their culture are no longer welcome in this city. They feel the

Christmas present the City Hall gave them was that of rejection.

Not the future envisaged by these Loyalist leaders in 1998 having

signed the Good Friday agreement. So why did it go wrong? Sinn Fein

are acting outside the spirit of the Good Friday agreement. For a

call for reconciliation at Westminster in September, October

time and then remove a flag - where is the reconciliation in that?

Loyalists have a list of grievances suggesting the flag was the final

straw. People wanted to remove royal from the royal Victoria

Hospital. People refused or tried to disrupt the home coming parade

for people fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. People are really

concerned that they called a child's play park of a Republican

caught with a weapon that killed ten Protestants. I could go on and

on. The shank hill Road the heart of loyalism and it's one of the

most deprived areas of the United Kingdom, yet barely half the people

in this district bothered to vote at the last council election.

Perhaps they no longer see much point in voting as the strength in

numbers they once enjoyed has diminished Things have been going

wrong, from their perspective, for a long time. In their heady days,

in the 60s and 70s, they felt they were in charge and the belief they

had brought down the executive. Anything like that hasn't happened

for a long time. The ratchet they feel is moving in One Direction and

One Direction only and they're not really gaining much from it.

Loyalists complain not of the union being in danger, but of their

cultural identity being eroded. That is felt most acutely in areas

where jobs are scarce, health is poor and hope seems lost. Middle

class people say, look, it's only a flag, get a life. Buff when you

live a life which is very restricted, job opportunities are

nil, education is poor, schools are substandard, health is poor,

there's addiction and alcohol problems, then, your culture

becomes very important to you. Because there isn't a huge amount

else in your life to really give you a sense of purpose, a sense of

achievement, a sense of identity, when you see your culture being

undermined and gradually eroded, that causes great discomfort, anger,

sense of alienation, bitterness. That's what burst onto the streets

now as the flag became the centre of a power struggle waged by

Unionist parties against Alliance. Unionist leaders have told

loyalists to keep it peaceful or stop. Don't they realise they're

damaging their own job prospects? Yes, they do. But when you're angry

sometimes you're irrational. Loyalists have lost their voice at

Stormont and blame the DUP and Sinn Fein for failing to tackle social

deprivation. They also blame Sinn Fein, hungry for change, for

thinking only of themselves alone. Sinn Fein have taken advantage of a

difficult situation. They have been mischievious if not malicious in

some of the things they have said. I think that they need to face up

to their responsibilities, which I think they have singularly failed

to do in this situation, passing blame, shifting it around, trying

to look as if they're the innocent party, when in fact, they are up to

their necks in some of the political manoeuvring that's going

on. Sinn Fein said, speaking as a politician here, they said they

wanted to befriend the Loyalist people. They shot themselves in the

foot. Some say a rapidly changing world, a changing union, needs

better management from leaders. The solution may lie in the kind of

dialogue and engagement that led to the Good Friday agreement. For me,

this is a revolution to other people with a small "r". To move to

the next level is how we look at the constitutional issues around

all of it. The PUP is coming forward with a paper and say a

Unionist, Loyalist think-tank would be a good starting point. In the

meantime, loyalists say the protests wonts go away. ( -- won't

go away. I'm joined now by Sinn Fein's Gerry

Kelly, the Alliance Party leader, David Ford, and Edwin Poots from

the DUP. We heard there from grassroots loyalists and they're

clearly convinced that Sinn Fein's agenda has led to this whole

situation on the ground. In fact, they have a point, don't they?

agenda is very open and straightforward. We believe in

equality. Equality should damage no-one. Equality is about everyone,

not just one section of the community. I think we need to put

this in context. I understand and this week has been about

Britishness. But it's about Irishness as well. If you look into

the City Hall at this moment, as we sit here, 90% of all the artefacts

are about colonialism or British identity, all of that. But this is

about bringing down the Union Flag. You have to put it into context in

fairness. I'm telling what the reality in City Hall is. We've

heard that the flag is taken down from the City Hall. My view is that

it should have been taken down. But this was a compromise. The flag is

still up in the City Hall on designated days. Maybe you failed

to prepare the way as far as grassroots loyalism was concerned,

maybe you didn't make the point and have a long enough lead in for

people to understand the subtleties that you say actually are relevant.

Here's actually what happened: What happened was the DUP put out 40,000

leaflets to make sure that everybody knew. If you're talking

about preparation, they prepared loyalism that they took the Jeanie

out of the bottle, created an atmosphere where there was violence

and they have to take responsibility for that. Has the

DUP prepared the way forts changes that are going to take place in the

society if there's to be genuine equality? The changes that we need

to see is further investment into Loyalist communities. We need to

tackle problems that exist there. We know, for example, that

educational output in Loyalist communities spbtd as good as in

working class republican areas. What's my department going to do

about it? How do we work together to make sure we get the right

parenting schools ipbtd deuced. Those are the things that will make

a difference. Are loyalists on the street at the moment demonstrating

about bad schools and poor health care? Or are they demonstrating

because the Union Flag has been removed and because their

politicians tell them that their Britishness is being chipped away

at? They're demonstrating because there was a bad decision taken at

the City Hall. You have to concede it was a democratic decision.

was. It was a bad decision. It was a despicable decision, disgraceful

decision, and ill-timed decision. It was read completely wrongly by

Sinn Fein and the SDLP and the Alliance Party. People across

Northern Ireland, from both middle class and working class backgrounds,

are absolutely furious about the flag. So there's tens of thousands

of people who are not on the streets protesting, bau they're

angry at how this has been handleded. There are a lot of

people not on the streets protesting, but are furious that

people are and they can't get home, or into hospitals and Ogogo about

their daily business. We have urged people not to disrupt others and

engage in vie lents behaviour. I've condemned violent behaviour every

time I come on the TV. I condemn all the actions against every other

political representative. I've listened to Alliance members who

have attacked the DUP and didn't pass remarks about the violence

against DUP members. Can you explain why the enterprise minister,

your colleague in the Executive, asked people to move beyond

protests. It's time to take it off the streets and move forward.

Protesters should listen to the voice of traders. At the same time,

this evening, William Humphrey, one of your well known MLAs in Stormont

is taking part in a protest in north Belfast. That's fairly easy

to explain. We've been asked for a number of occasions by police if we

can intervene in this and see if we actually ensure that if people are

going to insift in protest that it's done peacefully. He's stepped

up to the mark. He's taking part in the protest. Arlene Foster asked

them to stop protesting. He's working with the community to

ensure the protest doesn't get out of hand. We don't want protests

getting out of hand. We don't want violence or disruption. We used the

words tonight, he's supporting the protest. Well... Solidarity with

the protest. I have solidarity with the protesters. Have you been out

on the protest? I support the right of people to protest. I support the

right of people to say that it was wrong to take that flag down,

because it was wrong. It's manifest live wrong. Was Arlene Foster wrong

in asking people to stop protesting? Arlene Foster is right

to support the business community. We don't want protests which

disrupt the business community nor cause violence. We will work with

local Loyalist to ensure it's not the case. She said "It's time to

move beyond protest. Time to take it off the streets." William

Humphrey is working with people on the ground - On the street.

because there was a protest on the streets. He has been involved with

the local policing community to ensure... Should he not have been

there saying, go home, take your protest off the streets? If William

was there helping to ensure that protest was carried out peacefully,

in conjunction with what the police have been talking to him about, in

that communities, then he's acting responsibly. We shouldn't criticise

him for that. Is that a mixed message? It's a very mixed message.

First he says that Alliance has condemned some threats and not on

DUP members. That is not true. I condemned every threat. I referred

to the threats made against Peter Robinson and Edwin himself. I'm not

accepting that we're not being balanced. The decision was a

balanced decision. There was a proposals, as it's well known, for

Nationalists to remove the flag completely. The Alliance compromise

was to go for designated days. That applies to the majority of councils

across the water. Then we get to the situation that unionists having

distributed the leaflets to whip up concerns, then appear on the

streets with demonstrations. We get these weezle words about trying to

calm the situation down. A couple of nights ago, there was a protest

meeting in a welders club in Dee Street which warped half a mile to

Naomi Long's constituency office. They were entitled to have a

meeting off the ground. But Unionist politicians, Councilors

and MLAs from both parties walked with the protest aup to the office.

Then illegally they blocked the road, disrupted the business of

small shops, cafes whatever in that vicinity. That is damaging the

It is a mixed message. I spent 15 minutes outside Naomi

Long's office and it was calm and people moved off quickly.

The night before a petrol bomb was thrown at a police car and there

was a young officer in the car? That's where people are intervening

and taking risks intervening. OK, would it not be better if in

fact Peter Robinson's statement of last Thursday calling for the

protest to be suspended was acted pong. You have got a -- upon? You

have got a platform to say, "We under understand your pain, but the

protests aren't helping anybody." People want to protest. We are

saying don't disrupt what other people are doing. The reality is

every protest is disrupting people going about their business. It is

It is it is disrupting the city centre. Look at the stats of what

has been lost in business. It is not valid to say, "Don't disrupt."

If people are on the streets, it is disrupting business.

Quite a number of protests have caused no disruption, what so ever,

David. We are saying don't be blocking roads, don't be causing

violence and we are there to support the police if we can to

ensure that is not the case. Is it time to take the protests off

the streets? Is it time for people to stop? They have made their point,

stop? The street is the roads and that's blocking the roads. If

people want to stand on footpaths and protest, that's legitimate.

assembly Commission met today and there was annoyance on the part of

parties that did turn up at the meeting today which didn't go

anywhere because, of course, Sinn Fein, and the the Alliance Party

and the SDLP did not turn up. Would you not have sent a representative

along? We are trying to sort out the situation and the very thing is

we would not go to the commission. The other parties are on the

commission? The commission is set- up in a way that the majority vote

could put something true. It runs against the rest of the running of

the assembly. It is not the proper way to do it. If they want to bring

something and want to do it properly, bring it into the

assembly and let's have the debate and let's go through and it and

come to a resolution. And you are happy to have that

debate? I am quite happy to talk about anything and where we need to

go which is your original question, we do need to talk, we do not need

to be playing stroke politics on each other. Trying to put up the

shift the flag argument into Stormont is the wrong way to do

this. Trying to put up the flag more often in Stormont when there

was an agreement on that which was also a compromise, is the wrong way

to go about this. If we're going to try and... It is a funny democracy.

With due respect to the DU P, in any council the nationalist were in

charge of, they gave due shout. Because of the make-up of places

like Lisburn and new tonne abbey and because of the make-up, you use

the majority and continually used. Let's Try and see how we might

resolve the flags issue. David Ford, how does your representative on the

assembly commission not turning up help move that difficult situation?

You said about the commission not meeting today. Two days ago in the

heightened charged atmosphere, Judith Judith Cocrane declined to

go to a meeting. It wean and it was -- it was refused by the DUP

representative. It was Around a consultation. On that basis, I

suggested to Judith, she didn't go. She didn't go... Your Your mantra

has been, "Let's talk about it.". Which is why yesterday Judith

approached the other four party representatives on the commission

and suggested a an informal meeting without the staff and the speaker,

but as a way of seeking to deal with the relationships issues and

see what the commission could do. Gerry is right, it can proceed by

majority vote. On the basis the unionists agreed to meet Judith,

but without the nationalist being present. Judith had a meeting with

the two nationalist representatives trying to see the way to build back.

How do we dig our way out of this? We have death threats against

representatives from several political parties. We have seen

Property attacked and we have seen individuals attacked. We have seen

people prevented from going about their legal business. How do we

actually stop that? Park it and say we will deal with it after

Christmas and allow people festive cheer? Well, we can do without

provocation. The Alliance Party's representative referred to some

people as "rebel.". Some of the protesters have been. But it set

the wrong context, if you talk about people inflaming things, the

Alliance Party were one of the people to do that. We need to be

dem demonstrating to the community that we take seriously their Points

of View so when you have a consultation, that 90% of the

people say we are happy with the way it is and you ignore that.

Wouldn't you call for people who are involved in protests and

organising more protests over the weekend and look at the social

media, would you not urge them to press the pause button as Arlene

Foster and Peter Robinson have done? I would discourage from

engaging in anything that causes harm or hardship to any other

individual if they want to make some form of legitimate protest

about the flag, I will not deny them that right because that would

be fascism. Gerry Kelly? We need a period of

kal: of cam. Of calm. Unionist will not sorted this out -- sort this

out on their own. It needs to be about more than Britishness. It

needs to be Irishness as well. David Ford? We are going to need

the party leaders to come together to build relationships which have

been badly shattered over the last week or so.

Thank you very much for joining us. We will hear the thoughts of our

commentators in a moment, but there is nothing new, of course, in

loyalists taking to the streets when they they believe they are

under pressure. Still, things have changed from the days when they

could bring down political We will endeavour to provide just

Government in Ulster have been Certainly at one stage I think

Now, let's take the temperature off today's political waters with our

commentators. We welcome back the professors. Welcome back to both

you. Have things actually changed as far as loyalist street protests

are concerned since the 70s and 80s? Yes and no, we have stable

political institutions so the context is different, but the

simmering, discontent which is sparked by the flag issue, I think,

is symptomatic of powerless. This may sound romantic, but it is a

signal of, "We need help here." We need leadership and one of the

things that I think is dismaying about the conversation we have had

three the three politicians, there is no meeting of minds and you used

the phrase, "Mixed message." And I think that is sowing further

confusion. The pause button needs to be hit, but who will take this

issue forward? There is no joint statement. If there is a time of

leadership it is for the deputy and First Minister to jointly press the

pause button and not move it to the assembly commission.

Did the strength of feeling surprise you? No no not really. We

noticed this after the Good Friday Agreement, there was a feeling it

was a win, win for all communities. It became clear that loyalist

communities felt they were left behind. There are socio economic

problems and they have been pointed out, under achievement in terms of

education particularly around young young males, we know those things,

do, I don't think it is surprising, but I think this is a time when we

needed leadership from the unionist community, they should have said

"this is a compromise. It is how you sell this issue. They should

say, "The Good Friday good agreement, we need to work together

for everyone in Northern Ireland." It is dismaying when we hear

politicians talking about our community, your community. If this

is about a shared future, we are taking a view to say Northern

Ireland has huge potential, but socio economic issues have got to

be addressed. The report into Pat Finucane, were

surprised at the level of collusion detailed in that report?

systematic collusion that was taking place, I think, was, I think

alarming really. I don't think though that this is going to meet

meet what the Finucanes want is an inquiry, I don't think that's left

that's going to happen. What this demonstrate the security forces

were not just turning a blind eye, they were actually actively

encouraging, you know, murder. I think that is, it casts a really

dark stain, I think, on a whole period of our recent history during,

you know, what we styleted Troubles. -- strile -- style the Troubles.

Should will be be prosecutions? What it really demonstrates, we

have to deal with our past. There are tensions and they are

resurfacing with coroners reports and it will be a drip, drip effect.

We have had some way of drawing a line under the past. It may not be

that you look at individual cases, it maybe that orsz that

organisations have to be investigated. It is the elephant in

the room and it will come back and haunt us and our politicians have

to say, "We have to find a system to buy into dealing with the past

and give victims a voice." We cannot have this hierarchy of

victims and a feeling that all the reports are all about States

sponsored collusion. There is a feeling, going back to the earlier

point that other victims are being ignored and those, that context has

got to be addressed if we are going to move forward and have a shared

future. A final word. The alternative is a

path will continue to structure the future. As we are not dealing with

the past, this will be a running sore in Northern Ireland.

Census figures. Any surprises? is interesting because it is the

first time we have had a question about identity and what the census

shows us is that the danger of equating religion with with

identity and the surprise is 21% of the population say they are

comfortable with Northern Irish only. 21% of the population are

comfortable with the devolved settlement and that is interesting

and the politician will be interrogating the figures and

saying "well, who are those people?" It is not as simple are as

you are in one camp or the other? This issue of Northern Irish is

important. It is clearly embedded within the

census, there is a majority for the Union. You know, Northern Ireland's

place in the Union. That is why it is so important for the politician

to lead us out of that concern. The result over in England and Wales

because what it demonstrated is how much plural and diverse England and

Wales is becoming. In a way, you know, that feeds into insecurity

amongst loyalists here because is the Union is in flux, but the

British have a genius for dealing with that change. We don't seem to

be able to move forward to a situation where we can celebrate

that kind of change. While the Union, all about us in terms of its

demographics is changing. We have got to leave it there.