07/03/2013 The View

Coming up on the programme: I will not be silenced, the words

of the First Minister tonight as the row over perceptions of

political policing escalates. While the SDLP demands an apology, the

DUP remains defiant. We'll hear from both sides with

Paul Givan and Conall McDevitt. Also on the programme: I wonder if

those men consulted with the women in that their practice. Really what

we need to do is to ensure that women's lives are protected. As the

Assembly prepares to debate the abortion amendment will Shim paint

-- and will show off same block the proposals? -- Sinn Fein.

And as they get ready for an overnight count in the Mid-Ulster

by-election we'll be live from the count centre with all the latest.

And The View welcomes a new addition to Commentators' Corner.

Alex Kane joins Paul McFadden in our very own conclave to review the

political week. And you can, of course, follow the

programme on Twitter - that's @BBCtheview.

A row that's been festering all week has taken another twist

tonight. It began with that press conference from the First Minister

after meeting the Chief Constable on Monday. Peter Robinson said the

police must address a perception they're treating loyalists

differently from republicans. That prompted a written statement from

the Chief Constable insisting police do take all decisions

impartially. Enter the SDLP which raised its concern that the First

Minister may have breached the Ministerial Code. Now tonight, a

strongly worded statement from the First Minister insisting he will

not be silenced! With me in the studio to try to make sense of it

all, the DUP's Justice Spokesman, Paul Givan, and the SDLP's Policing

Spokesman, Conall McDevitt. Thank you very much for joining us on the

programme tonight. Paul Givan, why has the First

Minister chosen to issue such a strongly-worded statement tonight?

I think it is in response to the hysteria that surrounded his

initial comments after he met the chief constable, most of which has

been inaccurate reporting of what he did say. He is set in the

records state -- straight. In his statement he welcomes that the Lord

Chief Justice and the Chief Constable have come out publicly to

give some explanation as to the rationale behind the decisions that

they take. That is a welcome development and it helps to explain

to those, particularly in the loyalist community, who think they

are being treated unfairly. They see republican protests being tree

-- policed by a helicopter with no police officer on the ground but

loyalist protests had more police officers that the protesters.

Your party colleague, Jonathan Craig, said tonight he believes

there is even-handed policing, but the perception in the loyalist

community is that there isn't. Do you agree with Mr Craig that it's a

matter of perception rather than fact? Well, I agree with Peter

Robinson and Jonathan Craig will have both said this is about

addressing the perception that exists within the loyalist

community. That needs to be explained. It is not good enough

for the Lord Chief Justice to explain it to politicians, they

need to be explaining this issue publicly so people can be satisfied

that decisions are being taken properly and correctly.

Isn't it the job of unionist politicians to put them straight?

To tell grassroots loyalists that their perception is, in fact, a

misperception? We have been empowered by the statements that

have been released to be able to do that. We give them a political way

forward that has reduced the tensions, that has taken people off

the streets, because we now have a forum that is a vehicle took have

all of this dealt with. Ultimately we do not what people on the

streets. We want people to be airing their views the political

channels. Does that say we should be silent encourage people to take

to the streets. Let me just discuss some figures with you very briefly.

We now know that in the past three years, three loyalists have been

convicted for participating in illegal parades. 147 republicans

have been convicted for the same offence over the same period. Three

loyalists to 147 republicans. But you say there is a perception that

you are being discriminated against? That information will help

to alleviate those concerns. There was a Dalek -- there was a

ridiculous decision to remove the flag from the city caller that

caused street protests to take place and there are one or -- there

are hundreds more people due to go through the courts because of those

protests. -- City Hall. Conall McDevitt, Peter Robinson

says in his statement any suggestion that the First Minister

should ignore rather than address such perceptions says more about

you than it does about him. He's elected by the people to work on

behalf of the people and he says he won't be silenced. Well, the First

Minister should know better than to allow himself to become embroiled

in a propaganda war being fuelled by anti-agreement elements within

the loyalist community who are seeking to destabilise the

political process. He should also know better than to try and usurp

the position of the Policing Board, the sole accountability for

policing in Northern Ireland. He should also know better than two,

by his actions, give the perception that he is undermining the

operational independence of the Chief Constable and of the

judiciary. Is enough to Lab to comment on an issue that is a very

big issue for everyone in Northern Ireland? He can comment of course

of what he has done his go beyond comment. His public statements

after the meeting with the chief constable and tonight make

suggestions and in fact allegations. Tonight's statement makes an

allegation that one of the reasons there is a huge problem of

confidence within the loyalist community is because of the

activities of the historic inquiry team. He says in his statement that

the historic inquiry team are biased and they are only interested

in pursuing loyalists. Again, like his original allegation around a

noted by parades, the figures do not stack up either. Let me take a

second to do the figures. We will do that quickly. If you take

operation Stafford which is to do with the UVF, if you take that out

and look at the troubles related historical inquiries work 26 of the

39 cases relate to what I've I n a or IRA murders. Where is the

suggestion that they are not pursuing republican murders?

very handily from your perspective leave out operations staff at which

for loyalists is a significant they met they do not want to leave out.

I will tell you who is bothered with operations Stafford. UVF.

Loyalists are bothered. They have very good reason to be bothered by

it because the vast majority of the work of the operation relates to

crimes that happened after the ceasefire. Let us not get bogged

down in the details about that operation. How do you respond to

those figures that they are anything but biased against

loyalists? Well, you make the point yourself that he has had to

manipulate the figures himself to make the argument stand up. The

very same Conall McDevitt, who this time last year, that said as a

result of the retiring of offices in the police confidence within the

nationalist community of Policing has suffered as a result and now he

suffers -- and now he criticises Peter Robinson was saying there is

a perceived problem. There is a big difference between me and Jonathan

Craig and others, we are members of the Policing Board. The Policing

Board are the police and they are the people who are task under the

Good Friday Agreement, and I pricked -- and I appreciate that

Paul does not agree with the agreement.

But, Conall McDevitt, a breach of the Ministerial Code? Really? That

just ratchets everything up another level? The much -- of the vast

majority of us wants pizza majority -- Peter Robinson to be first

majority -- that Peter Robinson to be First Minister for the majority

of people in Northern Ireland. We are let down as citizens and MLAs

whenever he reduces his politics to the vested interests of a tiny

minority of loyalists. The SDLP say that nationalist confidence was

damaged. Then there engage in a campaign to have Marian Price

release from prison. They are happy to get involved in interfering in

due process on those issues. They supported the motion calling for

other people to be released from prison early and they have actively

campaigns and sought to influence. How do you respond to that? Sinn

Fein has logged on the Padraic Wilson case and also the Marianne -

- Marianne Price case. The SDLP does not hold the position of First

Minister. When you are First Minister you hold the highest

political office in Northern Ireland and you have a duty to rise

above tribal politics. You are meant to represent everyone. Peter

Robinson has spent the last week reducing his office to being a

pseudo spokesperson for a bunch of anti-agreement loyalists. There is

no getting away from that. He has not substantiate his single fact.

His figures have been blown out of the water. What I would like,

honestly, is for the First Minister to get back to his desk, to get

back to put in the interests of Northern Ireland First and to

understand that we all make mistakes and estate said that.

me pick up on that point with you Paul McGivern. Is there hypocrisy

all around here? When Sinn Fein members protested outside police

headquarters about the rest and charging of a party member, a DUP

and there -- a DUP MLA said Gerry Kelly must accept due process must

take its course and should not be interfered with a politically. That

is what he said about Sinn Fein, but it is OK for Peter Robinson to

jump on the bit when it suits him. Peter Robinson has not interfered

with any process. He has not asked the Chief Justice to do something

against what they wish to do but he has said that they need to explain

the decisions that they take so people understand why there is a

differential in treatment. It is not really any different to what

the SDLP did. You have loyalist to have had bail opposed and senior

Republicans to his bail was not supposed. What is interesting is

that, there that has jumped up and down to criticise Peter Robinson

but the Deputy First Minister who was there to absent all of us went

to the Parole commissioners on behalf of Marian Price and yet not

one word of criticism from the SDLP. Conall McDevitt, your contribution

has helped to make Policing a political football. My contribution

is about trying to defend what the people voted for on Good Friday

1998 and that was an operationally need to leave it there. Thank you

The vote is coming up for abortion but what does it mean for our

politicians? Welcomed by some and ridiculed by others. The first

private family clinic in Belfast opened up last September. It is

operating within the law which permits abortion in exceptional

circumstances where life is endangered. People objecting could

do little more than protest, until now. These MLAs, backed by an

Ulster Unionist colleague came up with a plan. They want to amend the

Bill so abortions when permitted could only be carried out by the

NHS. They argued a me the NHS provided robust regulation. What we

are doing his opening up a debate and insuring that it is done within

the regulation and proper legislation. But this MLA cannot

rely on his party's support. The DUP are backing their amendment and

the SDLP has not said what it is doing. Others remain opposed.

was in a situation where I thought I needed this sort of treatment and

perhaps I had private healthcare and was undergoing that for my

pregnancy, for whatever reason, I ended up in that situation, this

amendment would mean that I would then have to step outside where I

was already having treatment and go to the NHS. It does not make sense.

Sinn Fein has made clear it is opposed. It said it would restrict

a woman's ability to retain an abortion in threatening

circumstances and it requires public consultation. But four days

they have refused to say if they would block this amendment, using

what is known as a petition of concern. That requires three cities

and it needs Sinn Fein -- that requires a three written complaints

and it requires a Sinn Fein support. By really what we need to do is

make sure that the life of the woman is protected. It is a bad law

and not a good way to be doing law, tagging it onto the end of a

Criminal Justice Bill. This is a health matter. Sinn Fein will

oppose it and we are discussing how to do that. There has been pressure

for them to think again. It is well-known to Mickey Hart and he

has urged everybody to reconsider. A statement in support has been

issued by the Catholic Church. Campaigners have targeted

constituencies in recent days. will inform people regarding the

Sinn Fein position and also the plan to perhaps block that motion.

I think it would be suicide if they blocked that. It is important that

they realise and uphold the views of the people. Another campaigner

said she supports Sinn Fein in west Belfast as a stark message -- and

has a stark message. We do not support Sinn Fein on this and they

are not listening to ordinary people. The Sinn Fein candidate in

the mid- Ulster by-election insisted the party was in

opposition to abortion and the party said it was motivated by a

desire to deliver the goods more -- could law. -- proper legislation.

These people said that they were disappointed that Martin McGuinness

has not responded to their letters since last December. They wanted

him to personally accept their 3,000 strong petition. It was a

poor show we did not get a reply on behalf of these students. They are

the future. At the Deputy First Minister has office has found no

record of the request. There were different attitudes towards

abortion here. It is totally and utterly wrong. In certain

situations it can be the only option. I think Marie Stopes should

be allowed to carry out abortions under the law. Sinn Fein might be

increasingly taking this into account as it manages

constituencies north and south of the border. At it is reported that

Dessie Ellis thinks that the party is not going far enough to allow a

woman to choose. We have tried to keep both ends of the argument Oban.

It was -- Open. They ended up saying it was up to the woman to

make her own choice instead of trying to sound compassionate at

the same time. But for the woman to make her choice we must have a

choice available. Sinn Fein said its policy is the same on both

sides of the border. Sinn Fein is opposed to abortion but supports a

termination in the case of rapehomosexual abuse or if a

woman's life is in danger. -- ratehomosexual abuse or if a

woman's life is in danger. -- rate, abuse or if a woman potholes life

is in danger if -- -- rape, abuse or if a woman's life is in danger.

What are your thoughts about this? It was an extent of the 1967 Act.

We are looking at the amendment to be just as Bill and we are

considering it very carefully and as the package suggests it is very

delicate, serious and sensitive. And we had to conclude on a Monday

after taking advice and we will decide what we are doing. You are

not looking at the possibility that even though you are pro life, you

might be opposed to this amendment? I think it is likely that it would

corporately oppose the amendment, given that we are a crew live party.

But I cannot say exactly what we will be asked to do. What would you

do? I would not like to prejudice the debate that must take place. I

think we over this issue respect. Do you expect this to go through?

would anticipate a majority will support this amendment. It is

reasonable. If you support life, and supports choice, you support

regulation. All women in a crisis pregnancy, to get this treatment...

And what about if concerns are raised in a petition? It would be

the greatest abuse ever of the petition of concern. The Church has

endorsed this approach and to put down a petition of concern would be

failing to listen to the community views being expressed. It would

abuse the spirit of what it was meant to be about. We will stop

there for now and we will watch developments with interest. Thank

you very much indeed. At next, a subject which has had people

spinning for the past few weeks, the Mid Ulster by-election. We will

hear from Paul McFadden and Alex came shortly on the subject. Thank

you for joining us. First, Gareth Gordon is at the election count at

Cookstown Leisure Centre. What is the mood there tonight as the

candidates are arriving and the boxes are presumably starting to be

opened? The boxes were a little bit late. We were told that they would

be here at 10:15pm and they were definitely not here at 10:30pm.

Counting is probably just about to begin. All of the candidates are

here. The last of them arrived 10 minutes ago, frost -- 10 minutes

ago. It is Francie Molloy's to lose, I suppose but he does not think

that he will. There was a big majority by Martin McGuinness at

the last election but we will not have a 15,000 majority tonight and

that is pretty clear. It has possibly been below a 50 % turnout

and if we compare that to last time, it was 63 % and 63 % in 2011. -- it

was 65 % and 63 % in the 2011. It will not be a 15,000 majority

because the DUP, the Unionists and the SDLP all fielded candidates

last time and they have got an agreed Unionist candidate,

controversially of course, Nigel Lutton. They got about 32 % and

they will be looking to up that. Certainly not less than 32 %.

Otherwise it will be considered an experiment which has not worked.

The other candidates, Patsy McGlone, very well known and the Eric

Bullick from the Alliance Party. He has been associated with the

Alliance Party... I have got Paul McFadden and Alex with me now and I

think Alex wants to ask you a question. It was interesting that

he said it was a lower poll than expected. Are you getting any sense

of what figure we are looking at? How will they measure success?

think they would not want it to fall below 30%. If they are right

in saying that Unionists are calling for unity, they have got

this opportunity. They know that, when I was speaking to them earlier,

they said that they knew that they would not win, but they said that

the three parties have worked together on the ground. After this,

we will have a post mortem as we have always got after elections and

they will ask if it has been worth it. The Unionist Party said that

they would have felt liberated to have lost but it is a high price

today. We are expecting a result at perhaps 1:30am. I hope you have got

plenty of coffee to keep going! Thank you, Gareth. More from Alex

and Paul. We will touch a bit more on but debate that we have focused

on tonight. Where are we after the intervention tonight of the First

Minister Peter Robinson with that statement and the debate we have

had in the studio? In Londonderry I have spoken to a number of people

that would have said that there is a problem with partisan policing.

Nationalists and republicans have said that they are victims of

partisan policing. It is an indication of the difficulty of the

task that officers have got. Figures out to buy it would seem to

certainly suggest that he is not wrong in his perception that he

describes. I think we need to come out may be more strongly about that

issue and if there is a perception on the ground of partisan policing,

we direct that perception. depends on how you look at that

perception. You have it is as your story of the week. The row between

the SDLP and the First Minister. And that sparks the matter with the

Chief Constable. It is part of an ongoing story. It is like a Gothic

Victorian novel. Peter Robinson seemed to be reaching out and all

of a sudden we have had pressed by journalists as a born again

moderate and certainly he is talking to Unionists and other

candidates and he is getting very catchy about anything. The

perception certainly in some Unionist circles and nationalist

circles is that the DUP and the UUP were both quite ambivalent. How has

Peter Robinson turned in that direction? How has he changed, if

indeed he house as you have suggested? I think it might simply

be, I was at the conference for the first time ever and he talked about

reaching out and not writing out the Catholic Unionists. I think he

sensed that in his party there is much enthusiasm and he is moving to

the right. We can talk about your tweet of the week. This is from the

tweet of the week. This is from the actor and comedian David Schneider.

actor and comedian David Schneider. And he has said... She might have

been persuaded to take his points but I think it is not likely to

work this time. That relationship work this time. That relationship

is fractured. What about you, Alex? This is from Tom Watson... I think

it reflects the brutal nature of politics. They will be reflecting

politics. They will be reflecting on themselves in a few hours.

is no way it can be forgotten as far as the Conservatives are

concerned. It is a bad time for David Cameron. He is not getting

any bounce, no matter what he does. Even with the referendum. People

just do not like an want him. I think he has got up to 2015 but

that gives a rebel 2.5 years to make a move on him. And what about

the coming week. My highlight is what is going to happen with David

Cameron and in terms of what is going through and what he believes

in and I think he is under pressure and it is going to be something to

watch. And what about you? Another election after Mid Ulster and we do

not know what is going to happen. But speculation is that the new man

and it will be a man will have to be in place as the Pope and that

will move very quickly because the Vatican are meeting on the 11th of

this month. Next week we will see something happening. And we will

have the abortion debate on Tuesday and we have touched about that and

people feel strongly about it. I ran at the last election as an

independent candidate it was the issue I was asked about on the

doorstep the Maze. It has been raised by many people. It has

raised difficulties even within parties and so on. It is a

difficult one and it must be handled sensitively. And it cuts

across the political spectrum. Look at that quote from Mickey Hart.

is a moral and conscious thing. I think when people have a petition

of concern it can be an abuse. But it is a freedom of conscience issue.

Maybe it should be put to a referendum because the Assembly

will be dominated by middle-aged men and it does not pay any

attention to women and they need to deal with it. We have got a long