07/11/2013 The View

Tonight, he hasn't gone away, you know, but is Gerry Adams a party

president under pressure? This week's documentary on the

disappeared has propelled the Sinn Fein leader back into the headlines.

So is he irreparably damaged, or will he quell the latest political

storm? To debate the issue I'm joined live in studio by the leader

of the Ulster Unionist Party, Mike Nesbitt, and Sinn Fein's chairman,

Declan Kearney. Also tonight, he's the Executive's

top lawyer, but is the Attorney General acting outside his remit?

The former SDLP Minister, Alex Attwood, will be explaining why his

party's calling for the job description to change.

And City of Culture, or a city in strife? What's the likely legacy of

Derry/Londonderry? I think it's been really good but I think there have

been huge gaps exposed. And here to make sense of it all - tonight's

commentators Alex Kane and Paul McFadden. And you can, of course,

follow the programme Twitter - that's @BBCtheview.

We begin tonight with a story that's dominated the headlines here all

week - the so-called "disappeared". On Monday a joint BBC and RTE

documentary brought into sharp focus the plight of the families of those

murdered and secretly buried by republican paramilitaries. The most

high profile case was that of Jean McConville, widow and mother of ten.

Her tragic story was told in painful detail. The programme did point out

that the IRA has made efforts to atone for its actions, and the role

of the Sinn Fein President, Gerry Adams, in trying to find the bodies

was acknowledged too. But the programme also directly put to Mr

Adams the allegation that he was ultimately responsible for the fate

of Mrs McConville. Here's a short extract from The Disappeared. It

begins with two of the McConville children describing to Darragh

McIntyre the last time they saw their mother alive. Around

tea-time. She was in the bathroom getting washed and the next thing

they were shouting, where is she? They barged into the house. People

had masks on. She was screaming her head off. All of us were wrapped

around her, all crying and screaming. I looked over the

banister and she was getting thrown into the back of a van. That was the

last time. This woman was taken away and executed. The resort only one

man who could give the order. I had no part to play in either the

abduction, the killing or the burial of Jean McConville or any of these

other individuals. The Sinn Fein President, Gerry

Adams, speaking to Darragh McIntyre. Mr Adams is in the US tonight and

unavailable to talk to us, but the party's chairman, Declan Kearney, is

here, along with the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, Mike Nesbitt.

You are both very welcome to the programme, thanks for joining us.

This programme has prompted your party to table a motion for debate

at the Assembly later this month. What do you hope that will achieve?

It will give recognition to what was a magnificent piece of television.

That documentary was of unbelievable quality. When you look at the

content of it, what I would say to somebody who is seeing we have to

move on from this, if we ever tire of listening to the human cost of

the troubles, we should pack up because we have given up on our

humanity. Look at the situation is. The inhumanity of -- alt. Ring

someone, taking them away in secret, torturing and murdering them and

then denying their families the right to a Christian burial. It is

unbelievable that would happen, and that was for a long time the

strategy of the IRA. It goes back a long way. It's a difficult and

divisive issue. A Stormont debate is unlikely to be a calm and rational

debate, so how will that be a positive contribution to where we

are? It is not divisive. It was entirely wrong to disappear people

and I think it is entirely appropriate in terms of recognising

what was going on that we have a debate about this, and we have had

several opportunities. Is this political opportunism? It was

perfectly right to react to this documentary which has impacted

severely on people to say let's have a debate about this. They did -- the

shame is we still have to have the beak about this. It should never

have happened. Do you accept it is reasonable for the Ulster Unionists

to want to debate this on the floor of the assembly? On the first

instance, the programme spoke very powerful about the heartache and

heartbreak of all those families who have still not had their loved ones

remains returned to their homes. Heartache and heartache visited on

them by Republicans? A terrible injustice, most cruel, that should

never have happened. Listening to the programme and the testimony of

the families was heartbreaking. In reflecting on all of that, if that

is to be any purpose to tonight's programme, it must surely be to

encourage anyone who still holds any scintilla of information that may be

of direct or indirect assistance to the location of her remains, to

please bring that forward immediately to the commission. It

also needs to be an incentive to us all to exercise very responsible

political leadership in relation to how we address ourselves to dealing

with the unfinished business of our past and collectively setting about

in the here and now a reconciliation process which can change the

character of the divided relationships we have at the

moment, and give us better circumstances to deal with the past.

Before we move on, can you explain to people at home who may be baffled

by the line that senior Republicans take on this in public, you call

publicly for people with information to come forward but what some people

are asking is, why do you not speak to people you know are involved? Not

necessarily you but other senior Republicans you know who may not

have been involved directly but we'll know some of the people

involved who may not have given up all the information they have and

where the remaining missing people are? The commission established

approximately ten years ago to attempt to locate the remains of the

disappeared has been given the fullest cooperation and assistance

by republicanism. The head of the commission is on record as saying

that when he dealt with the IRA in the past, he felt confident he had

been given 100% cooperation. There are bodies still missing some more

needs to be done? I would encourage anyone who has information to please

bring that forward to the commission or to any member so that this wrong

can be done? Does that help? It has been said and said and said but what

we need is action and concrete leads to get to those remaining bodies.

Declan talks about leadership and I have to say, if we want to move

things on and deal with the past, we need honest leadership. We talk

about mutual respect but the preamble to the Belfast agreement

talks about trust. How can Unionists talk -- trust Republicans win Gerry

Adams says he knows nothing about Jean McConville's murder. I would

challenge Gerry Adams to come and say to my face, I was never in the

IRA. So his position is not credible? Neither Liz Martin

McGuinness's. He said that the Oxford debate this week, we never

targeted civilians. Jean McConville was a civilian. The disappeared were

civilians. What is your response to that challenge that frankly Gerry

Adams is not credible when he says he was not in the IRA? Let him tell

me to my face he was not in the IRA and the other allegation he was

directly responsible? The insistence on posing questions to Republicans

all of the time dodges the fact that the past can be an uncomfortable

place for us all, and there may be many questions to be asked of us all

and of each other. This is a direct question being asked of your party

president? Gerry Adams has made his position abundantly clear. He is

invested hugely, emotionally and politically, in the process of

collecting the injustice visited on all the families of the

disappeared. Charges that he has been at best dishonest partially is

the allegation made by Unionists but also by former Republican Conrad

is. -- comrades. If we want to talk -- if we want to ask questions of

some, let us ask them of all. It does make it more comfortable by not

answering! Questions have been asked of my community and we have come up

with answers. Bloody Sunday was unjustified and unjustifiable.

Things have been mishandled. The Prime Minister is prepared to say,

there was collusion and that was wrong and we apologise, so questions

are asked continuously of my community and my readers including

the Prime Minister offer you answers. Tonight, it happens to be

about Gerry Adams and in the preamble to the Good Friday

agreement, speaks of mutual trust. With respect... It is time to say to

my face, it was never the IRA. This is not a good place to be for

leadership taking us to a position that deals with the past. With

respect, you are focused consistently on questions for

Republicans and the difficulty with your approach is that it is based on

an approach where we continue to refight old battles. That is a

cul-de-sac and my focus is on the development of the de conciliation

process to try to do our best collectively. It would be much

better if you could join us in attempting to deal with the heart

and be suffering that has been created as a result of the conflict

we have all lived through and that we perpetrated on each other. Let me

ask you, you are the chairman... That reconciliation process is a

vital brilliant to the circumstances by which we can then in an entirely

new way deal with the legacy of our past. That is the nub of this. We

don't have a lot of time here but you are the chairman of Sinn Fein

and are you telling me you believe Gerry Adams was never in the IRA? Of

course I believe him. If you asked him face-to-face? Gerry Adams and I

have worked together closely for the last 25 years and I have nothing but

the utmost confidence in relation to Gerry Adams's stewardship of the

peace process. With respect, I am asking... What I want to come back

to on this point... You are not answering my question. We need to

level the playing field. It is a simple question. If you want to call

a spade a spade, there is an agenda shared by elements of the media...

It is a simple question. We would actually -- they would actually like

to see the back of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness from continuing to

exercise any influence... Is he says in his position as the president of

Sinn Fein? Long may that continue, but there are forces which would

seek to try to ensure seeing the back of Gerry Adams and Martin

McGuinness in the future. I want to give you a final word on

this. Declan says he is into this weekend deluge problem. He says that

we have to engage in difficult con, we have to listen to listen to

unionism. I am telling you that unionism is saying that there is a

difficulty and you are attacking me for saying it. Mike Nesbitt is

always asking prevalence of -- asking questions of Republicans, I

thought that is what you wanted me to do.

Thank you both for joining me. Londonderry's year-long cultural

jamboree is nearing an end. Thousands of people have had the

time of their lives, but there's also been a very public rift between

the City Council and the Culture Company, which is being wound up

three months early. The question now is what impact, if any, that will

have on the city's ability to build on the successes of the past ten

months - the event's so-called legacy. Here's our political

correspondent, Gareth Gordon. It has been a tale of two cities,

one has been enjoying the biggest party it has ever seen and it is not

over yet. The other has had infighting, resignations and

recriminations. The thing is, these two cities are the same.

Derry-Londonderry. It even has two names.

In Derry, it is not hard to see which view of the city currently

prevails. Despite the row between the organisers. I really don't

understand it, to tell the truth. I a guitar Festival and the City of

Culture were very good to me. I am fairly grateful for them getting the

big artists over. We hear so much about things being taken down and

taken away that you worry about that hopefully things will keep going as

they are because it's been really good.

they are because it's been really argument between the culture, media

and the City Council? Not at all! I didn't even hear about it. In one of

the city's misused factories, a City of Culture project has come to an

end. The art pop up easy, part gallery, part shop, it was a big

success. This painting illustrates the artist's frustration with the

City Council. It is called Running Away From Derry. It was really

difficult to get this up and running. It wasn't the most

welcoming place. I had major problems with individuals from the

council to stop I couldn't get money to the project. At one stage, I was

weeping. It was getting it to happen. I funded this project with

my credit card, such was the level of bureaucracy and win the Culture

Company and Derry City Council. Derry had an amazing opportunity to

put on this year of culture and by and large, I think it has been

really good. But I think there have been huge, huge gaps exposed that

need to be sorted. Eventually, the money was paid. The City Council

says it worked with the Culture Company to ensure delivery of the

factory into a gallery. It is satisfied it has successfully

delivered what it set out to achieve. Legacy, of course, can mean

whatever you want. I am delighted that here we are with the management

of arts making headlines as opposed to hate crimes, Republicans or flag

protests. I think that is a positive statement of we have got to. The

legacy is what the impact has been on the people, the people here and

impact in the world. The argument has been covered in the Derry

Journal, although most of the focus has been on the feel-good factor. We

would be more concerned if it was affecting things on the ground but

we have had a fabulous year and it is continuing now with a very

successful Halloween. But on the other hand, I suppose you could say

that as you look forward at legacy, we would prefer to know there is a

strong relationship there and that Derry will gain fully from all of

experience and skills that have been built up over the past 12 months.

experience and skills that have been issue than at the square, home of

the Turner Prize. The gallery will be converted into a creative hub,

supporting the creation of 50 jobs. That is a major source of annoyance

for the twice Turner nominated artist currently exhibiting in one

of the city's pop-up galleries. I think we are at the moment now, in

this year, where people have to really think seriously about what

they want legacy to be. If they really want to create a meaningful

legacy. So it is time for the City Council and Stormont to get real

about how they want to create a sustainable legacy in Derry. There

could be discussions subject to funding. We absolutely support the

cultural organisations and having that conversation but don't want

them to think about 2014, 2015, what is the plan for 2020, the big

ambition? That is a triumph excited about, that conversation and making

sure that we are really clear. Soon, the programme of events for next

year will be announced with the City Council omitting ?2 million. Rita

hopes to revive her factory project in the New Year, this time was a

link to Belfast. The legacy's light may be burning after all. -- this

time with a wink. Has the Attorney General, John

Larkin, over-reached himself? That's the claim of the former Environment

Minister, Alex Attwood, who says changes need to be made to the remit

of the office. He also wants to see an open appointment process for the

post in future and the publication and implementation of a review of

the functions of the position, written by the senior Scottish legal

figure, Dame Elish Angiolini. Alex Attwood joins me now.

You're claiming tonight that the Attorney General, John Larkin, has

over-reached himself and you say that's putting it moderately and

that he has crossed lines best not crossed by his office. What are you

referring to? The Attorney General's office is very important

in any jurisdiction. It is very important that any Attorney General

doesn't stay into the world of policy or politics. When you look at

what has happened over the last three or four years, I think that

when the Attorney General got involved in the case involving the

so-called scandalised judge contempt proceedings, when you see the

Attorney General suddenly appearing in a case in the European Court

involving a lesbian couple wanting to adopt a child in Austria, then I

do think there are questions that have to be asked about whether lines

are being crossed and whether those lines should not have been crossed.

In one way, I do not blame him because in the summer of 2010, the

Executive in my view, the Northern Ireland Executive, on the

recommendation of the Deputy First Minister, gave the office of the

Attorney General to much of the role, a role that I opposed at the

time. I voted against that role being given to the Attorney General.

I think there is time to pull back and reconfigure that office, as was

originally intended. So you think it was too big a role? Do you also

think he has tried to expand it? I think that a lot of people think

that the office has got too big and has gone into places where it is

best not to go. That is why I think that it was decided after an

Executive meeting to appoint a senior Scottish legal figure two

conduct a review of that office. That review concluded one year ago

and I am calling today for the publication of that review that has

sat on a shelf ever since. I have no doubt in my own mind that that

review will see to the Northern Ireland Executive that it is time to

reshape the office of the Attorney General and put back -- pull-back

from the role. One thing I should point out is that we have put your

claims to the Attorney General's office and we haven't had any

response as yet. On the report that you refer to their, we have been in

touch with OFM/DFM today and they say that report was received on an

in confidence basis and is not going to be published. If it was in

confidence minute might be that they have respectful stop but I do think

it is called to the Executive and Assembly to give a very full view of

what it was she recommended. And if she recommended that the office had

got too big, how it is now to be properly constrained. And more than

that, I would argue that just as every judicial office in this part

of the world now is appointed through a commission, I believe

there should be an open appoint panel for the next Attorney General

to be appointed sometime between now and Easter 2014. I assume that you

have met informally, and formally, with John Larkin in Executive

meetings and in and around the business of government.

Have you spoken directly to John Larkin about your concerns? Concerns

about the positions of the office of Attorney General and his hold on

that? I have no issue about the person John Larkin holding the

office of Attorney General. I have an issue that the office of the

Attorney General has got way beyond what is desirable and necessary for

the chief legal adviser to the Northern Ireland government. And

yes, I am sure he knows my views because they have been raised on a

rolling basis at Executive meetings. And indeed without naming others,

other ministers have raised very similar views. So whatever the

history of August, let's see the review published. Let's see the

office redefined. Let's ensure that wins the next Attorney General is

appointed, it doesn't stray into areas of politics or policy. You

have broken cover and gone public tonight on programme. Is this a

personal crusade against the current Attorney General? No. Why would

there be a personal crusade when four years ago at the Executive

meeting that gave to the office of the Attorney General a very big role

that I argued that that role should be constrained? This is not

personal. This is about getting the balance right between the very

powerful office of the Attorney General and the proper

responsibilities of ministers and executives. We will see if the

Attorney General's office response to your comments. We will see about

report is published. No doubt we will talk again.

Alex Attwood, thank you. Well, let's hear the thoughts of our

commentators. Joining me tonight are Alex Kane and Paul McFadden.

Good evening. A busy programme tonight. Let's talk about the debate

between Declan journey and Mike Nesbitt. Did it shed any light on a

very complex and very emotional, emotive subject? -- Declan Kearney.

I don't know. Anybody who watched the programme on the Disappeared, in

one sense, there wasn't an awful lot which was new revealed in the

programme. But it was nonetheless very compelling to watch and Gerry

Adams himself looked quite uncomfortable. Watching this evening

with Declan Kearney, he seemed uncomfortable as well. I think that

this is difficult for Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein, this evening, where doing

it in the form of Declan Kearney what they always do, they were

protecting their leader, their president. I don't think there is

any danger or threaten to Gerry Adams from within. It is going to be

interesting to see in the context of politics and public, just how voters

or potential voters, people who might have been considering

switching to Sinn Fein, how they might react to recent allegations

concerning Gerry Adams and how other parties who might have in linked

with Sinn Fein and any new government, it must be a difficult

one for them. With Gerry Adams in particular, it applies just as much

to others, when somebody is attacked, the natural instinct of

the party or community is to go in behind a believer of leader. It

doesn't matter what they actually think. I am sure there are many

Republicans who were deeply disturbed by what they saw on the

programme. I believe that their leader, that the majority voice of

the community has been attacked by Unionists as a matter of political

point scoring, nothing to do with the programme. They just wanted an

excuse to have another go. Certainly, when Declan Kearney was

talking, that is what he was saying. He refused to answer

straight questions. He just said it looks like he was defending Adams

because that was his job. If you were looking for common ground in

the run-up to the final stage of the Haas talks, which we are

approaching, there needs to be a resolution by Christmas time, you

would not necessarily pin your hopes on that conversation tonight, would

you? There is not a great deal of common ground. Any sense, the Bill

are battering into certain positions. Last record week before,

there were allegations of collusion against members of the security

forces -- last week or the week before. One thing which we have said

before, one thing which will have to come off the table again is the

Bradley report, which was ditched unfortunately because of one

unfortunate recommendation. It was a sensible approach to a difficult

issue. I don't think it will make a

difference because what you see what it was very measured at the start

but changed. They need to ask the questions of the unknown community,

get the answers and then start talking. No resolution to a

difficult issue and now doubt we will return to it. What about Alex

Attwood's challenge to the office of the Attorney General? The attorney

general has been featuring in the news more often than you might

expect. We noticed them too much for some people's liking. He is better

known than many ministers. What disturbs me slightly is that

sometimes with legal advice we're busy little suggestion that

sometimes it is steered by his own personal moral compass rather than

strictly legal and that worries me. He would I am sure they neither. We

will leave that they are. Thank you both. That's almost it for another

week, but just before we go - let's hear the inside track from our man

on the hill. What is BBC Northern Ireland playing

at? To TV licenses you will never see again! A trip to America because

they are than 50 million people in America, so there will be someone

out there who believes he wasn't in the IRA in 1972! They have come up

with the new slogan. Everybody is talking about the dream team. Martin

O'Neill and Roy Keane have been hired and he will get the

politicians together to tell them they will be the winners. Ulster TV

is going south. The shock news of the week. You can have a jamboree!

Jerry, you seem to have forgotten your poppy! Even Roy Keane can layer

like that. -- can't glare. That's it from The

View for this week. Join me for live coverage of the SDLP conference from

12 noon on BBC Two on Saturday, and Sunday Politics is at the later time

of one o'clock here on BBC One. For now, though, goodbye.