Browse content similar to 14/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, will it be a memorable Christmas for the right reasons for | :00:00. | :00:28. | |
Belfast this year? Republican and loyalist leaders have been meeting | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
senior police officers in another round of talks, aimed at easing | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
tensions on the streets. I'll be talking to Billy Hutchinson and | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
Gerry Kelly, who've just come from that meeting. The battle over | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
planning looks set to intensify with a Stormont showdown now looming. | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
planning looks set to intensify with one thing I'm fairly sure of is we | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
cannot allow a minister to ignore the will of the executive and ignore | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
the will of the assembly, and ignore the needs of the economy. Later, | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
find out what would happen if we lose ?5 million a month, and how | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
Edwin Poots can improve his image. Here to make sense of it all are | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
tonight's commentators, Alex Kane and Paul McFadden. And you can, of | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
course, follow the programme on Twitter. That's @BBCtheview. Another | :01:16. | :01:24. | |
meeting of the so-called Cardiff talks, designed to relieve tension | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
on the streets here, has just ended in the last hour. Senior police | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
figures, politicians and representatives of loyalist groups | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
are holding the talks against a backdrop of the ongoing Twaddell | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
Avenue dispute and the forthcoming first anniversary of the flag | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
protests. Earlier I spoke to the Chairman of the Northern Ireland | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
Tourist Board, Howard Hastings. He told me he's concerned at the | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
possibility of any more unrest. I would be hopeful to get a | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
resolution, because I think the ongoing protests are potentially | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
very damaging to business over the Christmas period. What is your | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
assessment as to how damaging the protests have been? The main area I | :02:01. | :02:10. | |
see this is Tourism Ireland's coverage especially close to home. | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
And holiday-makers, when they are coming to a destination, their first | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
beer is of safety and security. If they are not going somewhere where | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
they can feel safe and secure, they will go somewhere else. We will | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
never know how many visitors we lost this summer because of the very Poor | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
coverage -- poor coverage that was broadcast in the Republic and Great | :02:32. | :02:42. | |
Britain last year. The Sinn Fein MLA Gerry Kelly and the leader of the | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
Progressive Unionist Party, Billy Hutchinson, with me now. The DUP was | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
invited to the talks tonight but your party chose not to be there, | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
why not? We didn't choose not to be there. We have two people, only one | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
attends. It's one of those two. Unfortunately, not of them could | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
make it. We had other commitments. That is nothing to do with not being | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
at the Cardiff talks. It wasn't a significant enough meeting to be | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
there? As far as I'm concerned, I have one of two people I can choose | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
and non-were available. And you were not prepared to go as your self, | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
leader of the party? We need continuity. I chose the two people | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
that go normally, only one of them is allowed to attend. We've only got | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
one member. There is no continuity in not being there. I don't want to | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
get into a debate about this. Let me be clear, there are other people who | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
have no lack of representatives. I've only got one representative. | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
Therefore, the person I wanted to centre Knight couldn't go and we | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
couldn't send anybody. OK, but are you happy with the process, do you | :03:59. | :04:12. | |
think it is important and do you intend to be there next time? It is | :04:13. | :04:14. | |
an important process. That process is around police and relationships | :04:15. | :04:16. | |
with different communities. As long as people stick to an agenda, I'm | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
happy enough. Is it significant that the PUP wasn't represented tonight? | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
He's answered that question. It's there are enough. Was there anything | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
significant that came out of the discussions? The discussions are | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
private, in the sense that we are going through a process. It's about | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
a relationship. We are very strict it is a better relationship. It has | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
been helpful, if you return to the statement that came out of Cardiff | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
and the principles that were called the Cardiff principles, they are | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
still there and are very advanced. We will continue those discussions. | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
But they are not there to replace anything else. There's a particular | :05:04. | :05:13. | |
focus on public order policing. To be clear about those principles, in | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
shorthand version they were recognising support for the police | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
and it was a commitment on the part of the parties that were present to | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
resolve differences through dialogue and non-violent means. A reminder | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
that people need to be very careful about what they say in public. That | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
commitment didn't stop the summer of unrest, of course. It wasn't | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
intended to stop a summer of unrest. It is an effort by a wide range of | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
people to at least, if there is unrest, to deal with it in the | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
proper way. We did go through it. There's no point us continually | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
saying that the will move forward and have proven to be and then to | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
say that we shouldn't have this dialogue. I think it is very | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
helpful. Your party remains signed up to those commitments that were | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
agreed in May? We remain signed up to the principles of this. We also | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
recognise that we need to work to make sure there is no violence on | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
the ground. But we also are committed to complaining about the | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
police whenever the police use public order in their own way. The | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
police are quite clear, we meet with the police all of the time. We will | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
say when the police get it wrong. Let's talk about what might or might | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
not happen over the next few weeks. We heard from the chairman of the | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
tourist board saying he hopes there is not any further unrest because | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
the unrest that we saw from last Christmas right through to the | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
summer certainly didn't help the Northern Ireland economy, didn't | :06:56. | :07:06. | |
help businessmen, people who run restaurants in the centre of Belfast | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
or tourism. Do you accept that needs to be a big priority, to make sure | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
we don't have a repeat of what has gone before? We will continue to do | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
what we do, we don't want to see violence. Don't forget to mention | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
that young people who are now in prison because of this. These are | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
young people who have never been in trouble before. We don't want to see | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
this happening, but we now have young people who are in prison. We | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
also need to focus on the loyalist communities don't see how the police | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
police the same way as they do everywhere else. We also see the | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
justice system treating young loyalists and other people of all | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
ages from loyalist communities in a different way. Howl in a different | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
way? If they are in prison they are in prison because they did something | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
wrong. We have people who have done very little wrong other than be | :07:49. | :07:49. | |
involved in protest very little wrong other than be | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
not allowed to in Belfast. Republicans are in front armed | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
conflict offences and they are getting bail. We can do this. There | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
are lots of things we need to look at. People in loyalist communities | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
feel they are not getting fair treatment from police or the | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
courts. The PBS are going back and saying that people who get suspended | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
sentences and isn't strong enough, they are asking the judge is to put | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
them into prison rather than suspended sentences. That doesn't | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
happen in Republican cases. I be interested to know if Gerry Kelly | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
agrees with anything you've said. Do you think there is an issue over the | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
way that loyalist protests are policed compared to the way | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Republican protests are policed? I notice he used the word perception. | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
There is a perception of this happening and this -- and that | :08:43. | :08:50. | |
happening. A couple of years ago, when there were all sorts of people | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
arrested in Ardoyne and when there was also violence in Carrickfergus, | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
Ballyclare and other places, I was on arguing there was differential | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
policing. I have a simple thing to say about all of that. If you want | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
to look at the balance in this case, you have to look at this year | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
compared to last year and the previous year. In the end, what is | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
expected of the police is they police impartially. Do they do that, | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
in your view? Yes, I think they are at long last. There was a period | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
after December three last year when it took something like 13 | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
after December three last year when get them to do policing at all. I | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
just want to comment. That's fine for Gerry talking like that because | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
what happens is people elected in Republican communities actually make | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
sure that they challenge it in the policing board. Our difficulty is we | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
don't have Unionist politicians who are chart -- in this. For anyone | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
involved in protests in loyalist communities, they feel that nobody | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
fight their corner. The difference I say is Unionists don't do it and | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
Republicans to do it. Far be it from me to stand up for Unionist | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
politicians, but I do sit on a police board and some of the points | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
that Billy is making are valid. Other people might say if you don't | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
bring people out onto the streets to engage in protests, they will not | :10:25. | :10:26. | |
get involved in engage in protests, they will not | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
not get caught up in violence and not find themselves in front of the | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
courts. Mike Nesbitt, Ulster Unionist Party leader, says people | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
should stay off the streets and not affect the economy adversely, as has | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
been done in the past. Does he make a fair point? Was it done before the | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
letter or after the letter his party set out? The two main Unionist | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
parties other people who send letters out about the flag protest. | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
That is the genesis of all of this. Listen, it doesn't matter whether it | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
was a very long time ago or not. Mike needs to realise that his party | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
sent the letter out. That is the genesis of all of this. At the end | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
of the day, in terms of protests, loyalists not allowed to protest? | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
You would have to see Sinn Fein about that. People who took the | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
national flag of this country... Are you talking about the leaflet that | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
was sent out to people in east Belfast about the flag? His point is | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
the protests last year didn't work. They were counter-productive. People | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
need to rethink the strategy. The last thing Belfast needs and the | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
last thing Unionism needs, Mike Nesbitt says, is for that to happen | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
again. People can protest. If Mike has changed his tune from other | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
protests like that, that is up to him. I do think loyalists are | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
entitled to protest. If the protests are peaceful, what is the problem? | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
They haven't been peaceful. They have. Very few... Very few have had | :12:07. | :12:17. | |
violence. Too many have had violence. Not too many. Very few | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
have had violence. It is some too many, that's the point. You can't | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
control it when you bring people onto the streets. Mike Nesbitt is | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
saying, don't bring them onto the streets. People are coming onto the | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
streets. I don't see Mike giving much hope around what it is they | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
want people to do. There is a difference between an entitlement to | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
protest, which I would support, and whether you should be protesting, | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
whatever the effect that protest will have. The figures were | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
something like 55 million in damage. It was violence on the streets. The | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
question that should be put is, does the PUP support these protests? I | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
agree with what he said at the beginning, that it was whatever | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
agree with what he said at the was, very political when it was put | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
out. But the question is, what do you do with that now and is the PUP | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
supporting the protests which are taking place? You are supporting the | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
protests and you are supporting the protests that are planned for the | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
30th. We are. Let me throw respect to Gerry, do we want to... Let's get | :13:28. | :13:37. | |
real. We are where we are, this is 2013. Trying to throw it away to | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
when the conflict was on does not solve the problem. A lot of people | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
will be hoping politicians will find a way to make sure we don't have a | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
repeat. Billy Hutchinson and Gerry Kelly, thank you. The battle over | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
planning reform here could be about to escalate. The former | :13:56. | :13:57. | |
planning reform here could be about Minister, Sammy Wilson, has told The | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
View he believes the Planning Bill will return along with controversial | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
amendments setting up economic planning zones and restricting | :14:03. | :14:04. | |
possible legal challenges. Last month, the bill was withdrawn by the | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
current SDLP Minister, Mark H Durkan, because of legal concerns. | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
Campaigners are now warning that if the plans are brought back, they | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
will oppose them again. Here's our Political Reporter, Stephen Walker. | :14:15. | :14:29. | |
Planning has always been political. Here, the two largest power blocs, | :14:30. | :14:40. | |
Sinn Fein and the EU P felt too much rested with the environment | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
ministers. They wanted to set up special economic zones, and they | :14:47. | :14:48. | |
wanted to change planning decisions could be | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
challenged. SDLP saw that as a power grab, and rather than let the plans | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
become law, they decided to withdraw the entire bill. This is where the | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
root of much of this debate lies, Spruce field, nearly is burned. | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
Campaigners for reform say the delays and challenging surrounding | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
the John Lewis development shows that changes needed. To leave us | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
without the reform and the planning system, and without a bill, the | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
development industry, the construction industry, those | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
involved were saying was needed, to me, is a wrong decision by the | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
Minister and he should not be allowed to get away with this. | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
Others suggest that the economic benefits of the planning Bill have | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
been exaggerated. I think it is a myth that big business is behind the | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
amendments. So you think that Sinn Fein and DUP have got that wrong? I | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
think they are misreading the mood of the community and the business | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
community. So when they say that business wants this, you say, show | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
me the evidence? The businesses that I act for don't really want this. | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
Doctor Liz Fawcett represents a series of residents groups and she | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
insists the original plans would have reduced the rights of people. | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
If we just allow all environmental considerations to be forgotten about | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
and put to one side, and we become known in Northern Ireland for having | :16:30. | :16:31. | |
a lax planning regime, which is known in Northern Ireland for having | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
essentially what this legislation would mean, then the whole | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
quality-of-life and quality of environment that we have will just | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
go down the plughole. Now it seems there are efforts to rebuild the | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
planning Bill and give it a new lease of life. It would make sense | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
if Eileen Foster brought it forward to the assembly, come forward as a | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
Private members Bill and there could be mechanisms used to get it | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
introduced onto the floor of the house. The one thing I am fairly | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
sure of is that we cannot allow a minister to ignore the will of the | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
executive and ignore the will of the assembly, and ignore the needs of | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
the economy. Opponents of the planning Bill say some of the | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
original amendments are actually unlawful. They breach multiple | :17:23. | :17:31. | |
elements of European law and the United Nations Convention, which is | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
incorporated into the European law. The European Convention of human | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
rights as well, and as I direct consequence of that, the amendments | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
are beyond the legislative competence of the Northern Irish | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
assembly. If similar amendments are presented again, many say they will | :17:50. | :17:57. | |
continue the opposition. If you say individuals, civic societies are not | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
allowed to take up any legal challenge against a government | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
decision, that, to me, is anti-democratic. That is not about | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
democracy, and to me, that is enough for me to oppose it. There was | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
contrary legal advice on the bill. Some insisted it was unlawful, | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
others like the attorney general, John Larkin, said such concerns were | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
a logical. Some argue that the courts should have had the final | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
say. -- illogical. The best way to do is accept the will of the | :18:31. | :18:32. | |
assembly, take the legislation through and then let it be | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
challenged in court. It wasn't legal, the courts would have made a | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
decision and that part of the bill could have been struck out. So what | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
would happen if the and macro -- Sinn Fein brought the original | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
planning amendments back? -- DUP and Sinn Fein. I would say hands off. We | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
have considerable ability and energy in terms of the Minister to deal | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
with the planning issues effectively and efficiently, and what they have | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
proposed in the past is illegal and wrong and they should desist from | :19:09. | :19:10. | |
this, because it is politically unwise, and legally questionable. | :19:11. | :19:19. | |
Much of this rests on legal interpretation. If it all comes back | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
to store Montt, get ready for round two. -- Stormont. When politicians | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
and lawyers will do battle once again. | :19:30. | :19:31. | |
Here's a moral question for you. When does a political conviction | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
become a prejudice? And is there a difference between a deeply held | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
belief and a blinkered ideology? Many of our MLAs have very strong | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
feelings about important issues across the board, so should we | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
embrace our opinionated political class? | :19:48. | :20:00. | |
# My Way - Sid Vicious. The natural order, whether one believes in God | :20:01. | :20:10. | |
or evolution, the natural order is for a man and a woman to have a | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
child, so that has made my views on adoption very, very clear, and on | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
raising children, very, very clear, it should be a man and a woman. I | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
look forward to the day that the assembly decides to end academic | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
selection for good. Until that day I will strive to make it irrelevant, | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
and highlight the damage it does. And maybe, just maybe, sometime in | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
the future people's opposition might reduce. That is why I am not | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
scrapping the National Parks Bill, but I am shelving it. In my opinion, | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
fracking imposes... It is my opinion. | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
Joining me now are two people with strong views on the rights and | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
wrongs of political convictions - the Green Party's Steven Agnew and | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
the former Alliance MLA, Seamus Close. Steven Agnew, Edwin Poots has | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
been the focus of a lot of attention recently, justifiably so? I think | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
so. The thing I have questioned Edwin Poots on is that he has his | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
personal values and he has been very clear in articulating them, but I | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
have asked for the evidence, for example with denying unmarried | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
couples or those in civil partnerships from adopting, where is | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
the evidence it would cause harm to children? He is yet to present -- | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
present any evidence. He has presented his values, but I think we | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
need evidence. The American psychological Association reviewed | :21:49. | :21:49. | |
over 500 cases and said there is no psychological Association reviewed | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
evidence to suggest that same-sex couples raising children caused the | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
children any harm. Seamus Close, is it acceptable to introduce | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
legislation on personal values and convictions? If you don't have | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
conviction, what have you got? Do you form it on lack of conviction in | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
question at all politicians have conviction which brings them into | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
the political reader. They want to get their views and politics across. | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
The real question is, what is forming the opinion? What forms the | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
opinion and conviction question mark is it religious beliefs, personal | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
conscience, or moral values? If you answer yes to any of those, | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
conscience, morality, are you supposed to set those aside? Because | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
you are a legislator or a politician? Does there have to be a | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
conflict between that and an evidential approach, or party | :22:43. | :22:44. | |
approach question mark party policy is where you find yourself | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
struggling in terms of personal conviction. If I could not accept | :22:49. | :23:00. | |
party policy, do I bend over and accepted willy-nilly? Even though in | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
my heart it was not correct? Therefore I took the stand and left. | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
What is wrong with that? There are certain beliefs that one holds and | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
holds them dear. You cannot be blamed for holding those particular | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
beliefs. Here is the difference, you were not a minister at the time, but | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
Edwin Poots and others are ministers. I am right in saying you | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
are not serving MLA, you were retired, so you were a party member. | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
It was less of an issue for you than it is for those standing | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
It was less of an issue for you than dispatch box. You are partially | :23:40. | :23:41. | |
right. Part of the reason I was not fighting the election was because of | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
my deeply held view on a particularly -- particular issue, | :23:47. | :23:47. | |
along with other things that happened in the past, but that led | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
me to take a personal decision that I was no longer going to fight an | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
election for a particular political party. There has to be a difference | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
between beliefs and policy. Me, is. I am vegetarian, but it is not Green | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
party policy that everyone should be. That is not a policy. If the | :24:08. | :24:17. | |
Green party developed a policy that you had to eat meat, could you not | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
remain in the party? I don't think that is a policy, to say you cannot | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
eat meat. Entirely hypothetical, I understand. But it could be | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
problematic. I take your point, but that is where right place the | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
difference between politics and personal values. That is where a | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
political party should be leaving room for conscience issues. I think | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
most political parties do leave that room for conscience issues. This is | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
about policy-making. When a minister stands up its not about private | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
conscience, it is about directing policy. It affects everybody in the | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
country. A minister is standing up and talking about an issue on which | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
he is trying to get legislation. Therefore, is he wrong to try to | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
persuade people, if it's based on an informed conscience and a principled | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
stand? He may have to change because public opinion is against him. There | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
is a different stream conscience and what becomes active and irrational | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
discrimination. Me not eating meat, that harms no one, but the | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
Minister's personal convention might discriminate against another sex or | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
part of the community. In that sense, harm is being done and you | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
cannot justify that in value will stop you need evidence to | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
discriminate in a rational basis -- that in values. Fascinating stuff. | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
We may continue this later tonight. We have to leave it there. Seamus | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Close and Steven Agnew, thank you. Listening to all that this evening | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
and ready to give us their thoughts, our commentators, joining me again | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
are Alex Kane and Paul McFadden. Let's talk about the discussion | :25:59. | :26:06. | |
about the Cardiff talks. DUP Not there tonight. Significant, not | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
significant? Did you get a sense? Billy Hutchinson, the explanation he | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
gave, for the nonattendance at the talks, it does sound pretty strange | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
that they could not send someone along, even Billy himself. He made | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
the point that they are meant to be in the process and somebody should | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
have been there to represent them. I have kind of very low expectations | :26:30. | :26:38. | |
of the process. And I think perhaps it was overly optimistic. It is nice | :26:39. | :26:48. | |
to know there is not a continuity PUP. You have the Cardiff talks, the | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
Unionist forum, and you saw the body language, in three or four minutes | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
they were back to the dreary staples, back to the early days of | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
the conflict. Billy Hutchinson saying he would support this. The | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
young people he is saying might be damaged in prison, he said he would | :27:04. | :27:05. | |
support them. That damaged in prison, he said he would | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
says it is the fault of the police. When he is pushed on that, his | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
analysis is that they were involved in peaceful protests, but there is a | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
differential in the policing of Loyalist demonstrations and | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
Republican demonstrations. We heard Gerry Kelly say something similar. | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
Both sides will constantly complain, and no matter how it works out, the | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
police get it in the neck. Do you think there is a different way the | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
policing is handled in the community? It's hard to say. I | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
suspect that this is about pitching on a different stage for the DUP to | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
build up supporting Loyalist communities. And the fact that they | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
have been critical about Unionist politicians with them not raising | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
have been critical about Unionist issues in Loyalist communities. | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
Conviction politics, a quick word. When this personal conviction become | :28:07. | :28:16. | |
prejudice? Henry Kissinger said that personal conviction never withstands | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
first contact with a downturn in the polls. In Northern Ireland we have | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
individual ministries driving things with their own ideological | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
conviction because the system works that way is. If people come out and | :28:26. | :28:34. | |
say what they think, they may vote for him, but what scares me is if | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
they think what they say. Let's have a word about the political week. We | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
saw the passing of the veteran SDLP MP, Eddie McGrady. What was your | :28:46. | :28:54. | |
perspective on him? He was first elected the year Art. I was born in | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
1961, but the fact that nobody has a bird work -- bad word to say after | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
50 years in politics, that speaks volumes. I met him when I was | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
working with Enoch Powell in Southdown, and he believed in | :29:09. | :29:10. | |
power-sharing and reaching out long before it was necessarily needed or | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
fashionable. That was the guy he was. Interesting to see the broad | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
range of opinion represented at his funeral today. That is an | :29:20. | :29:28. | |
encouraging sign, but if you know the man, what else would you expect? | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
Let's talk about another man who was hugely popular who passed away this | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
week. This is a tweet from David Cameron. @DavidCameron - John Cole | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
was a titan of the BBC, and a great political reporter. Belfast's very | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
own John Cole. He really defined the job. I got to interview the man in | :29:48. | :29:58. | |
Port Stewart, another gentleman. A clever and classy political | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
journalist. Hugely entertaining, ferociously well-informed. And | :30:04. | :30:05. | |
people like him. The audience liked him, which is why they listen. They | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
did not hear the accident, they heard him speak. One final one to | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
strike a different note. @trishdevlin - Russell Brand at | :30:16. | :30:17. | |
Twaddell Protest Camp. U couldn't make it up if you tried! He appeared | :30:18. | :30:25. | |
last night, Paul. The most exciting thing to happen since read Hannah | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
took her shirt off in the field somewhere. Could be a big one for | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
the tourist board. I think he just misheard the Belfast accent and he | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
thought it was a brand parade. Thank you both. That's almost it for | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
tonight, but before we go, time for our insider's look at what's been | :30:43. | :30:44. | |
happening up at Stormont. The MLAs do not take kindly to the | :30:45. | :30:59. | |
early mornings and warnings even though they used to give him them | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
out. But Mike Penning said we could lose 5 million a month if we don't | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
sign up for welfare reform. Northern Ireland needs the money. With ?5 | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
million you could get Van Morrison's band to play for a night. | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
Make a donation to the Lyric Theatre, then have pay some man to | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
burn a tricolour. But the tax is ridiculous. A spare room is | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
absolutely essential if you've been married as long as May. Well done | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
Londonderry for providing a year of culture. A night at the Opera, a | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
year in the industrial tribunal and a row in the papers every day. There | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
goes Edwin Poots. Ollie, Edwin Xtra mesh might see you next time they | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
ask you about relationships. Heterosexual, or, God forbid, gay. | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
Say nothing! Resist the urge, big lad! That's it from The View for | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
this week. Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC One. | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
For now, though, bye-bye. | :32:01. | :32:03. |