Browse content similar to 18/04/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
within the executive, are they having a knock-on effect on the | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
economy? If they were a business, they would be bankrupt. They have | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
had time, opportunity and money. a leading businessman Carson eye on | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
politicians, we will get a ministerial response. | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
It was a student activist in this 60s, tonight Simon Callow joins us | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
with his thoughts on the politics of Northern Ireland today. In | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Commentators' Corner, Baroness May Blood and Professor Deirdre Heenan. | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
You can follow the programme on twitter. | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
It was the week that the executive 's internal divisions were once | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
again exposed. Martin McGuinness attacked Unionists commitment to | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
power-sharing and the DUP responded by questioning Sinn Fein's | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
commitment to policing. What impact is this dispute having? Gareth | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
Gordon has been speaking to one of Northern Ireland's leading | :01:26. | :01:36. | |
:01:36. | :01:45. | ||
industrialist about the impact of Memories, the moment they said would | :01:46. | :01:55. | |
:01:56. | :01:56. | ||
never happen, but that was then. Long gone are the days of the | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
chuckle Brothers. No one is laughing now. All of us will be greatly | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
helped if Unionism ended the pretence that may not working the | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
Good Agreement institutions. People need to be a government, not because | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
they have to be, but because they want to be. We will hold them | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
accountable because that is our job and that is why we went into | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
government. Things are so bad that apparently this week they already | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
decided to hold what has been described as a bonding session. | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
So, what effect is this instability having? Let's remember that the | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
executive's main priority is said to be the economy. That's try telling | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
that to the man who runs this successful company outside Lisbon. | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
John Cunningham's Camelon group employs around 200 people supplying | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
and developing cutting edge product for the power industry. What does he | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
think of the power wielded by the executive? | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
If they wear business they would be bankrupt. They have had time, money, | :03:06. | :03:15. | |
opportunity. They would be bankrupt. Seriously? Of course.They are a | :03:15. | :03:22. | |
business to some extent, so what should the people do? That is not up | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
to me to decide. I am just saying that if it is a business, it would | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
be long gone. Executive ministers well know who | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
John Cunningham is. It was his factory which was used for the | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
launch of the public consultation into cutting the rate of corporation | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
tax which carries some weight. Over the last 30 years we have been | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
arguing about the same things. That does not seem to be a great deal of | :03:50. | :03:58. | |
progress, Timmy. So, in our world and the world of business we tend to | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
ignore it. Do you watch political coverage? No, none at all. It is of | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
no relevance. Surely the government of the Northern Ireland executive | :04:10. | :04:17. | |
have relevance? Not to us. They do their own thing, we do ours. It is | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
not up to us to change because our attitudes formed by the real world | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
in which we live. The international business community, it is up to the | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
executive to come to terms with the way that we have to live. Are you | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
saying we have not done that? think they have with the present | :04:38. | :04:47. | |
:04:48. | :04:48. | ||
disputes? I do not think so. What do they need to do? I think that they | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
need to look realistically at the problems they are facing. And tackle | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
those. It is a disgrace that our young people are having to leave. | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
That we have completely inadequate education systems and that we just | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
simply cannot provide the people that can fuel and industrial | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
programme. That is a total disgrace that we have a divided education | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
system. There is no logic to those things. If the government is to be a | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
government, it must tackle those issues. | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
As for the executive's latest troubles? I think it is totally | :05:28. | :05:37. | |
nonsensical. It is like watching children argue. What relevance does | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
it have? Why don't they put it all behind and really look and address | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
the problems we are facing. These arguments and these historical | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
things are not going to change the way we go forward. They are only | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
going to keep us in the past. They are not going to keep young people | :05:58. | :06:05. | |
at home and bring prosperity to the province. We should put them behind | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
and move on. We showed John Cunningham 's | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
comments to a leading economist. He makes scathing remarks about | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
local politicians and some of those fair. Look at the skills problems he | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
has. Our education are nobodies responsibility but our own and if we | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
are failing our children, it is our responsibility. What he misses is | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
that politicians have pressures on their time as well. If we the | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
electorate are constantly asking tribal questions, they have to | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
provide tribal answers. We need the electorate to make business issues | :06:40. | :06:47. | |
and pressing on to our local executive that we need jobs for our | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
people and most importantly for our children because they are simply not | :06:49. | :06:59. | |
:06:59. | :07:12. | ||
Gareth Gordon reporting. We asked the DUP and Sinn Fein to provide a | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
minister to join us, but both parties said no one was available. | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
The Alliance party and the Ulster Unionists could not oblige, but | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
joining me is Alex Attwood of the STL P. Thank you for joining us on | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
the programme. We heard from John Cunningham, a leading industrialist. | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
How concerned are you to hear an man like that say that if the executive | :07:34. | :07:42. | |
was a business it would be bankrupt? What John Cunningham captures is | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
that the ambition and the opportunity and the hope of the Good | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
Friday Agreement, that should have been around as for the last 15 | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
years, is evaporating before our eyes. I think that sends a very | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
strong message to all politicians and all parties, but particularly | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
those who have been given, by democracy, the lead responsibility | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
to fulfil the ambition and the hopes and the opportunities. | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
He says politicians are not doing their job. Has he got a fair point? | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
I think it does have a fair point. I think that too much, over the last | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
five years, the DUP and Sinn Fein have settled for the fact that they | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
have got devolution, flawed though it is, and we have made a stand | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
against terror. Whilst those are important achievements, I think | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
people have many more needs and many more hopes than that and that the | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
DUP and Sinn Fein, in my view, are clearly running out of steam and | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
running out of road. We have seen these flinty exchanges | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
between members of Sinn Fein and members of the DUP in the past week | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
or ten days. We hear rumblings that things are not good around the | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
executive table. Use it at that table. You are on the inside looking | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
out. You know what is said and how people react to each other. Is it as | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
bad as we hear it is? It is frosty, there is no doubt. It | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
is more frosty than it has been for the last five years, but rather than | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
curse the darkness, as the saying goes, we have to lie to candle. My | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
view is that people are beginning to realise that for all the | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
achievements of the last five years, Sinn Fein and the DUP now have the | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
answers to expand north south for economic growth, to deal with narrow | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
water, to deal with the issue of housing flags and people are | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
beginning to say, we acknowledge what has been achieved, but you | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
don't have the wherewithal or the conviction or commitment that is | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
desperately needed in order to deal with all these historic issues and | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
in order to ensure that the government measures up to the needs | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
of the people. When you say it is frosty, what does | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
that mean? Does that mean the relationship between the first | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
Minister and the Deputy first Minister is not functioning? | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
I think it is deeper than that. There is a sense of tension and at | :10:11. | :10:18. | |
times open conflict between various ministers. Not just those two?Far | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
from it. It is a tendency between some DUP and Sinn Fein ministers. | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
The issue is not to analyse what is going around the executive table, it | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
is to deal with the issues that John Cunningham and people are crying out | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
for. Is it about prickly relationships | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
between individuals around the table or are their policy differences? | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
It is all of those things, but a part of it is that in my observation | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
over the past three years, the DUP want to do politics on their terms. | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
That is why we have had problems around north-south and narrow water. | :10:58. | :11:05. | |
That is why we have had the DUP resisting the authority of the | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
commission. The problem has been compiled by the fact that Sinn Fein | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
have been wreaked -- week around that. So what is the answer? If it | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
is the case, and people are beginning to see it is the case, | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
that the DUP and Sinn Fein either don't have the ambition to live up | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
to the agreement in politics and how will we resolve that issue? In my | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
view, people are beginning to say that the DUP and Sinn Fein have run | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
out of road. We now need people to take a stand the next road. | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
But people keep voting for them. They are by far the biggest parties | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
in Northern Ireland. Whatever they are doing wrong, people still vote | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
for them. There have been a lot of reasons why | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
that has arisen in the last five to ten years. We are now entering a new | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
phase of politics where people are saying there is unfinished business | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
to deal with our past and the future. Who will lead and shape | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
that's? I think people have tested and see what the DUP and Sinn Fein | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
contribution is to it and have seen that they have run out of conviction | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
ideas. Is it time for opposition to get out of the executive room and | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
actually criticise those who remain in its? Opposition is an option, but | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
what people want to see is strong, good government in difficult times, | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
rather than flare ups between the DUP and Sinn Fein. People want to | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
see the agreement that is 15 years old is not degraded before our very | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
eyes and the hope and ambition of that is achieved. | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
In practical terms, what could you as a politician sitting around the | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
executive table do to make things better? | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
I am one person from one party around the table. According to Peter | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
Robinson a number of months ago, the positions of the SDLP redefine | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
north-south and narrow water, housing become the position of Sinn | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
Fein. What conclusion do you draw from that? The conclusion I draw is | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
that political ground is not shaped by the DUP and Sinn Fein, it is | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
shaped by those who honour the Good Friday Agreement in all aspects. | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
That is where the people of this part of the world want to go, given | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
the problems we are now seeing. me ask you a final thing because the | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
DUP and Sinn Fein have chosen not to be here to night and that is their | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
right, but what they might say and I have heard them say elsewhere is, | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
look, it is working. Coalition government is not easy. Not easy in | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
London or Dublin, but we are working together. Statement they issued | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
today, the new centre will send out a powerful signal to the | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
international community, we are building a brighter and better | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
shared future together. Not easy, but that is what they are doing. | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
get no argument from me that it came at a terrible human costs. | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
Eventually all parties agreed that we need to have devolution and stand | :14:11. | :14:18. | |
against terror. If today's decision in approving the centre in the May's | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
galvanises people to look to the future rather than be preoccupied | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
with the conflicts of the past, I welcome that. The problem is that | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
people have expectations and hopes way beyond the achievements of | :14:32. | :14:42. | |
:14:42. | :14:43. | ||
devolution. Will those be realised After the struggles and pain we've | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
gone through, I think people will be wise enough to go forward. I | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
think they will run out of steam. People are increasingly looking for | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
those who articulate those values best for the future of this part of | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
Ireland. He is regarded as one of the foremost actors of his | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
generation, but 45 years ago he arrived in Belfast as an | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
undergraduate at Queen's University in the early days of the civil | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
rights movement. Now, four-and-a- half decades later, he's back in | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
Belfast and ABBA talking to him in just a minute. -- and I'll be | :15:19. | :15:29. | |
:15:29. | :16:08. | ||
Simon Callow, welcome to The View. You were politically active in | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
Belfast in the late 1960s, are you still a close follower of the | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
political scene in Northern Ireland today? I wouldn't say it close, but | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
I do come quite often to Northern Ireland, especially Belfast, and I | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
keep my ear to the ground. curious thing is that although I | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
was here very briefly at university, I've kept a part of Belfast in my | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
heart and wherever I go I talk about Belfast and Northern Ireland | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
people who may not know. You were, for a very short period of time, | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
very involved in student politics come at a time when the civil | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
rights movement was really in its early days. There was a lot | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
happening in the students' union at Queen's at that time. Yes, 68 it | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
was. Queens for a time was the absolute centre of what you might | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
call progressive thinking. Then, as it were, the genie was let out of | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
the bottle. I left Queens, I ran away to become an actor. But I left | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
at exactly the moment the genuine explosive element entered into it. | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
But you took part in some of those demonstrations. You were there with | :17:17. | :17:25. | |
Bernadette Devlin. Yes, I was very much part of that. As a foot | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
soldier, I was just handing out leaflets and was deeply committed | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
to the cause. I marched and had my actions smacked and all of the rest | :17:32. | :17:42. | |
:17:42. | :17:45. | ||
of it. As an outsider?Absolutely. That finally came to me, I was | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
handing out leaflets in Shaftesbury Square. A lady came up to me and | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
said, sunny, it's not your problem, go back home. I kind of thought, | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
she's right in that sense. I was an outsider. But you are back and a | :18:01. | :18:09. | |
you never lost touch with the place. No, I came back in the worst of | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
times as well, in the 70s. I came with a theatre company, I really | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
had to persuade them. For half-an- hour, I persuaded them it was | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
absolutely what they had to do because we were needed. The theatre | :18:25. | :18:33. | |
company was needed. You've come back at a time when we are post | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
conflict. Do you think Northern Ireland has lived up to the | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
expectations that so many people had, visit the place that many | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
people, 15 years ago when the agreement was being signed, thought | :18:43. | :18:52. | |
it could be? There was astonishing optimism both inside and outside of | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
Northern Ireland. In those five or six years after the agreement, an | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
astonishing change in the basic psychology of Belfast and Northern | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
Ireland. It is true that one has sensed that Ebico way. There's a | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
kind of depletion, the stock of good will seems to have run out. | :19:09. | :19:17. | |
That is a heartbreaking thing to watch from the outside. You were | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
one of the first prominent British actors to come out as a gay man, | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
although you'd never describe yourself as an activist. You will | :19:24. | :19:31. | |
know that Northern Ireland lags behind in various things in -- that | :19:31. | :19:39. | |
the UK are heading. Does it bother you? In 68, hummers sexual roles | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
were regarded as the devil incarnate. -- homosexuals. There's | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
been a huge step forward, so one must be very grateful for that. But | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
the problem is a lot of things like gay marriage, gay adoption and | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
giving of blood are so petty, such small things. They're not really to | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
do with any fundamental opposition. The reasons are not sound. It's | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
just a withholding of final approval of the idea that gay | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
people are just like everybody else. That is all anybody wants to say. | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
Gay people are like everybody else. But the politicians in Northern | :20:16. | :20:25. | |
Ireland don't quite see it that way. So I understand. But the people of | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
Northern Ireland when questioned in opinion polls, they don't have that | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
point of view. They may be abuse like that in small enclaves, just | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
like in England. Having come from a position growing up as a young, gay | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
man, homosexuality was absolutely illegal. To have come where we have | :20:44. | :20:51. | |
come is absolutely astonishing. So one is very grateful for that in a | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
sense. But I think it's been one. It's rather like hanging, it has | :20:58. | :21:08. | |
:21:08. | :21:09. | ||
been won. That argument is deeply in the hearts of people. I must ask | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
you about Baroness Thatcher. The arts community, when she moved into | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
Number 10, were very uncomfortable about her approach to culture and | :21:17. | :21:26. | |
film-making. She disapproved of state sponsorship of the arts. She | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
wasn't a cultured woman. She wasn't interested in poetry, literature, | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
art or music. Above all, she didn't like the theatre. I remember | :21:35. | :21:45. | |
:21:45. | :21:45. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 214 seconds | :21:45. | :25:19. | |
to see the controversies seem to come on an hourly basis. First of | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
all it was the cost, the protest, the role of the police, the state | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
funeral in all but name. In the context of the climate we are living | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
in, but I think most people felt it was a funeral and around a funeral | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
there should be dignity. There was a lot of disquiet about dancing on her | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
grave. A funeral is not a time to look at her policies. There is a | :25:44. | :25:52. | |
human issue. Peter Mandelson had an intriguing insight into Mrs | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
Thatcher's view of Irish people. Let's hear what he had to say. | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
her the day I was appointed Northern Ireland Secretary, our paths crossed | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
and she said I have one thing to say, she said, you can't trust the | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
Irish, they are all liars, lawyers and that is what you have to | :26:11. | :26:20. | |
:26:21. | :26:29. | ||
He was only relaying Baroness Thatcher's comments. Deidre, your | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
tweeted of the week. It comes from a BBC political correspondent in | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
the context of welfare reform. We've been talking about the | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
squeezed middled. He refers to the squeezed bottom. The Financial | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
Times have introduced a new term called the squeezed bottom. He | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
wonders if this will catch on. wonder what he's talking about. I | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
hesitate to ask! The don't ask, we will leave that to the imagination. | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
Looking ahead. Now next week, a report coming out on child | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
education. The minister pointed out on a group on advancing the | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
education. I look forward to the report with greater eagerness, | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
hoping that the recommendations will move us forward. As you heard | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
John Cunningham saying earlier, our education system here is an | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
absolute mess. We need it sorted now. We do. We need to have the | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
debate and vote on. At you are looking ahead to where religious | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
matter. I'm. An event on Sunday. The installation of Eamonn Martin, | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
the archdiocese of Armagh. A wonderful achievement personally, | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
and also wonderful achievement for the city. That is your big look | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
ahead. To go back to the education issue, you are a big supporter of | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
integrated education. Do you think this report can move that debate | :27:58. | :28:08. | |
:28:08. | :28:10. | ||
forward? I hope it does.We have shelves and gather dust. That is my | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
fear. I'm hoping they will come across with fairly decent views. We | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
have to get somewhere into our education system, you've heard the | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
Sillett many times, I work with kids who can hardly read and write. | :28:22. | :28:26. |