18/04/2013 The View


18/04/2013

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within the executive, are they having a knock-on effect on the

:00:30.:00:35.

economy? If they were a business, they would be bankrupt. They have

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had time, opportunity and money. a leading businessman Carson eye on

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politicians, we will get a ministerial response.

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It was a student activist in this 60s, tonight Simon Callow joins us

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with his thoughts on the politics of Northern Ireland today. In

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Commentators' Corner, Baroness May Blood and Professor Deirdre Heenan.

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You can follow the programme on twitter.

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It was the week that the executive 's internal divisions were once

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again exposed. Martin McGuinness attacked Unionists commitment to

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power-sharing and the DUP responded by questioning Sinn Fein's

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commitment to policing. What impact is this dispute having? Gareth

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Gordon has been speaking to one of Northern Ireland's leading

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industrialist about the impact of Memories, the moment they said would

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never happen, but that was then. Long gone are the days of the

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chuckle Brothers. No one is laughing now. All of us will be greatly

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helped if Unionism ended the pretence that may not working the

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Good Agreement institutions. People need to be a government, not because

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they have to be, but because they want to be. We will hold them

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accountable because that is our job and that is why we went into

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government. Things are so bad that apparently this week they already

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decided to hold what has been described as a bonding session.

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So, what effect is this instability having? Let's remember that the

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executive's main priority is said to be the economy. That's try telling

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that to the man who runs this successful company outside Lisbon.

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John Cunningham's Camelon group employs around 200 people supplying

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and developing cutting edge product for the power industry. What does he

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think of the power wielded by the executive?

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If they wear business they would be bankrupt. They have had time, money,

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opportunity. They would be bankrupt. Seriously? Of course.They are a

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business to some extent, so what should the people do? That is not up

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to me to decide. I am just saying that if it is a business, it would

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be long gone. Executive ministers well know who

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John Cunningham is. It was his factory which was used for the

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launch of the public consultation into cutting the rate of corporation

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tax which carries some weight. Over the last 30 years we have been

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arguing about the same things. That does not seem to be a great deal of

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progress, Timmy. So, in our world and the world of business we tend to

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ignore it. Do you watch political coverage? No, none at all. It is of

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no relevance. Surely the government of the Northern Ireland executive

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have relevance? Not to us. They do their own thing, we do ours. It is

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not up to us to change because our attitudes formed by the real world

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in which we live. The international business community, it is up to the

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executive to come to terms with the way that we have to live. Are you

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saying we have not done that? think they have with the present

:04:38.:04:47.
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disputes? I do not think so. What do they need to do? I think that they

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need to look realistically at the problems they are facing. And tackle

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those. It is a disgrace that our young people are having to leave.

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That we have completely inadequate education systems and that we just

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simply cannot provide the people that can fuel and industrial

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programme. That is a total disgrace that we have a divided education

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system. There is no logic to those things. If the government is to be a

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government, it must tackle those issues.

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As for the executive's latest troubles? I think it is totally

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nonsensical. It is like watching children argue. What relevance does

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it have? Why don't they put it all behind and really look and address

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the problems we are facing. These arguments and these historical

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things are not going to change the way we go forward. They are only

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going to keep us in the past. They are not going to keep young people

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at home and bring prosperity to the province. We should put them behind

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and move on. We showed John Cunningham 's

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comments to a leading economist. He makes scathing remarks about

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local politicians and some of those fair. Look at the skills problems he

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has. Our education are nobodies responsibility but our own and if we

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are failing our children, it is our responsibility. What he misses is

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that politicians have pressures on their time as well. If we the

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electorate are constantly asking tribal questions, they have to

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provide tribal answers. We need the electorate to make business issues

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and pressing on to our local executive that we need jobs for our

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people and most importantly for our children because they are simply not

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Gareth Gordon reporting. We asked the DUP and Sinn Fein to provide a

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minister to join us, but both parties said no one was available.

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The Alliance party and the Ulster Unionists could not oblige, but

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joining me is Alex Attwood of the STL P. Thank you for joining us on

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the programme. We heard from John Cunningham, a leading industrialist.

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How concerned are you to hear an man like that say that if the executive

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was a business it would be bankrupt? What John Cunningham captures is

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that the ambition and the opportunity and the hope of the Good

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Friday Agreement, that should have been around as for the last 15

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years, is evaporating before our eyes. I think that sends a very

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strong message to all politicians and all parties, but particularly

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those who have been given, by democracy, the lead responsibility

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to fulfil the ambition and the hopes and the opportunities.

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He says politicians are not doing their job. Has he got a fair point?

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I think it does have a fair point. I think that too much, over the last

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five years, the DUP and Sinn Fein have settled for the fact that they

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have got devolution, flawed though it is, and we have made a stand

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against terror. Whilst those are important achievements, I think

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people have many more needs and many more hopes than that and that the

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DUP and Sinn Fein, in my view, are clearly running out of steam and

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running out of road. We have seen these flinty exchanges

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between members of Sinn Fein and members of the DUP in the past week

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or ten days. We hear rumblings that things are not good around the

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executive table. Use it at that table. You are on the inside looking

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out. You know what is said and how people react to each other. Is it as

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bad as we hear it is? It is frosty, there is no doubt. It

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is more frosty than it has been for the last five years, but rather than

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curse the darkness, as the saying goes, we have to lie to candle. My

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view is that people are beginning to realise that for all the

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achievements of the last five years, Sinn Fein and the DUP now have the

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answers to expand north south for economic growth, to deal with narrow

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water, to deal with the issue of housing flags and people are

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beginning to say, we acknowledge what has been achieved, but you

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don't have the wherewithal or the conviction or commitment that is

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desperately needed in order to deal with all these historic issues and

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in order to ensure that the government measures up to the needs

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of the people. When you say it is frosty, what does

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that mean? Does that mean the relationship between the first

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Minister and the Deputy first Minister is not functioning?

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I think it is deeper than that. There is a sense of tension and at

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times open conflict between various ministers. Not just those two?Far

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from it. It is a tendency between some DUP and Sinn Fein ministers.

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The issue is not to analyse what is going around the executive table, it

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is to deal with the issues that John Cunningham and people are crying out

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for. Is it about prickly relationships

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between individuals around the table or are their policy differences?

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It is all of those things, but a part of it is that in my observation

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over the past three years, the DUP want to do politics on their terms.

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That is why we have had problems around north-south and narrow water.

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That is why we have had the DUP resisting the authority of the

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commission. The problem has been compiled by the fact that Sinn Fein

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have been wreaked -- week around that. So what is the answer? If it

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is the case, and people are beginning to see it is the case,

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that the DUP and Sinn Fein either don't have the ambition to live up

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to the agreement in politics and how will we resolve that issue? In my

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view, people are beginning to say that the DUP and Sinn Fein have run

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out of road. We now need people to take a stand the next road.

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But people keep voting for them. They are by far the biggest parties

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in Northern Ireland. Whatever they are doing wrong, people still vote

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for them. There have been a lot of reasons why

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that has arisen in the last five to ten years. We are now entering a new

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phase of politics where people are saying there is unfinished business

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to deal with our past and the future. Who will lead and shape

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that's? I think people have tested and see what the DUP and Sinn Fein

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contribution is to it and have seen that they have run out of conviction

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ideas. Is it time for opposition to get out of the executive room and

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actually criticise those who remain in its? Opposition is an option, but

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what people want to see is strong, good government in difficult times,

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rather than flare ups between the DUP and Sinn Fein. People want to

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see the agreement that is 15 years old is not degraded before our very

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eyes and the hope and ambition of that is achieved.

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In practical terms, what could you as a politician sitting around the

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executive table do to make things better?

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I am one person from one party around the table. According to Peter

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Robinson a number of months ago, the positions of the SDLP redefine

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north-south and narrow water, housing become the position of Sinn

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Fein. What conclusion do you draw from that? The conclusion I draw is

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that political ground is not shaped by the DUP and Sinn Fein, it is

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shaped by those who honour the Good Friday Agreement in all aspects.

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That is where the people of this part of the world want to go, given

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the problems we are now seeing. me ask you a final thing because the

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DUP and Sinn Fein have chosen not to be here to night and that is their

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right, but what they might say and I have heard them say elsewhere is,

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look, it is working. Coalition government is not easy. Not easy in

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London or Dublin, but we are working together. Statement they issued

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today, the new centre will send out a powerful signal to the

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international community, we are building a brighter and better

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shared future together. Not easy, but that is what they are doing.

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get no argument from me that it came at a terrible human costs.

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Eventually all parties agreed that we need to have devolution and stand

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against terror. If today's decision in approving the centre in the May's

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galvanises people to look to the future rather than be preoccupied

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with the conflicts of the past, I welcome that. The problem is that

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people have expectations and hopes way beyond the achievements of

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devolution. Will those be realised After the struggles and pain we've

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gone through, I think people will be wise enough to go forward. I

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think they will run out of steam. People are increasingly looking for

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those who articulate those values best for the future of this part of

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Ireland. He is regarded as one of the foremost actors of his

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generation, but 45 years ago he arrived in Belfast as an

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undergraduate at Queen's University in the early days of the civil

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rights movement. Now, four-and-a- half decades later, he's back in

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Belfast and ABBA talking to him in just a minute. -- and I'll be

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:15:29.:16:08.

Simon Callow, welcome to The View. You were politically active in

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Belfast in the late 1960s, are you still a close follower of the

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political scene in Northern Ireland today? I wouldn't say it close, but

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I do come quite often to Northern Ireland, especially Belfast, and I

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keep my ear to the ground. curious thing is that although I

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was here very briefly at university, I've kept a part of Belfast in my

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heart and wherever I go I talk about Belfast and Northern Ireland

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people who may not know. You were, for a very short period of time,

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very involved in student politics come at a time when the civil

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rights movement was really in its early days. There was a lot

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happening in the students' union at Queen's at that time. Yes, 68 it

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was. Queens for a time was the absolute centre of what you might

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call progressive thinking. Then, as it were, the genie was let out of

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the bottle. I left Queens, I ran away to become an actor. But I left

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at exactly the moment the genuine explosive element entered into it.

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But you took part in some of those demonstrations. You were there with

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Bernadette Devlin. Yes, I was very much part of that. As a foot

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soldier, I was just handing out leaflets and was deeply committed

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to the cause. I marched and had my actions smacked and all of the rest

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:17:42.:17:45.

of it. As an outsider?Absolutely. That finally came to me, I was

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handing out leaflets in Shaftesbury Square. A lady came up to me and

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said, sunny, it's not your problem, go back home. I kind of thought,

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she's right in that sense. I was an outsider. But you are back and a

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you never lost touch with the place. No, I came back in the worst of

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times as well, in the 70s. I came with a theatre company, I really

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had to persuade them. For half-an- hour, I persuaded them it was

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absolutely what they had to do because we were needed. The theatre

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company was needed. You've come back at a time when we are post

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conflict. Do you think Northern Ireland has lived up to the

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expectations that so many people had, visit the place that many

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people, 15 years ago when the agreement was being signed, thought

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it could be? There was astonishing optimism both inside and outside of

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Northern Ireland. In those five or six years after the agreement, an

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astonishing change in the basic psychology of Belfast and Northern

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Ireland. It is true that one has sensed that Ebico way. There's a

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kind of depletion, the stock of good will seems to have run out.

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That is a heartbreaking thing to watch from the outside. You were

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one of the first prominent British actors to come out as a gay man,

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although you'd never describe yourself as an activist. You will

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know that Northern Ireland lags behind in various things in -- that

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the UK are heading. Does it bother you? In 68, hummers sexual roles

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were regarded as the devil incarnate. -- homosexuals. There's

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been a huge step forward, so one must be very grateful for that. But

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the problem is a lot of things like gay marriage, gay adoption and

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giving of blood are so petty, such small things. They're not really to

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do with any fundamental opposition. The reasons are not sound. It's

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just a withholding of final approval of the idea that gay

:20:04.:20:08.

people are just like everybody else. That is all anybody wants to say.

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Gay people are like everybody else. But the politicians in Northern

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Ireland don't quite see it that way. So I understand. But the people of

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Northern Ireland when questioned in opinion polls, they don't have that

:20:29.:20:34.

point of view. They may be abuse like that in small enclaves, just

:20:34.:20:39.

like in England. Having come from a position growing up as a young, gay

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man, homosexuality was absolutely illegal. To have come where we have

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come is absolutely astonishing. So one is very grateful for that in a

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sense. But I think it's been one. It's rather like hanging, it has

:20:58.:21:08.
:21:08.:21:09.

been won. That argument is deeply in the hearts of people. I must ask

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you about Baroness Thatcher. The arts community, when she moved into

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Number 10, were very uncomfortable about her approach to culture and

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film-making. She disapproved of state sponsorship of the arts. She

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wasn't a cultured woman. She wasn't interested in poetry, literature,

:21:30.:21:35.

art or music. Above all, she didn't like the theatre. I remember

:21:35.:21:45.
:21:45.:21:45.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 214 seconds

:21:45.:25:19.

to see the controversies seem to come on an hourly basis. First of

:25:20.:25:25.

all it was the cost, the protest, the role of the police, the state

:25:25.:25:30.

funeral in all but name. In the context of the climate we are living

:25:30.:25:35.

in, but I think most people felt it was a funeral and around a funeral

:25:35.:25:39.

there should be dignity. There was a lot of disquiet about dancing on her

:25:39.:25:44.

grave. A funeral is not a time to look at her policies. There is a

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human issue. Peter Mandelson had an intriguing insight into Mrs

:25:52.:25:58.

Thatcher's view of Irish people. Let's hear what he had to say.

:25:58.:26:02.

her the day I was appointed Northern Ireland Secretary, our paths crossed

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and she said I have one thing to say, she said, you can't trust the

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Irish, they are all liars, lawyers and that is what you have to

:26:11.:26:20.
:26:21.:26:29.

He was only relaying Baroness Thatcher's comments. Deidre, your

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tweeted of the week. It comes from a BBC political correspondent in

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the context of welfare reform. We've been talking about the

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squeezed middled. He refers to the squeezed bottom. The Financial

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Times have introduced a new term called the squeezed bottom. He

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wonders if this will catch on. wonder what he's talking about. I

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hesitate to ask! The don't ask, we will leave that to the imagination.

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Looking ahead. Now next week, a report coming out on child

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education. The minister pointed out on a group on advancing the

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education. I look forward to the report with greater eagerness,

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hoping that the recommendations will move us forward. As you heard

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John Cunningham saying earlier, our education system here is an

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absolute mess. We need it sorted now. We do. We need to have the

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debate and vote on. At you are looking ahead to where religious

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matter. I'm. An event on Sunday. The installation of Eamonn Martin,

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the archdiocese of Armagh. A wonderful achievement personally,

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and also wonderful achievement for the city. That is your big look

:27:49.:27:54.

ahead. To go back to the education issue, you are a big supporter of

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integrated education. Do you think this report can move that debate

:27:58.:28:08.
:28:08.:28:10.

forward? I hope it does.We have shelves and gather dust. That is my

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fear. I'm hoping they will come across with fairly decent views. We

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have to get somewhere into our education system, you've heard the

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Sillett many times, I work with kids who can hardly read and write.

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