25/04/2013 The View

Coming up on The View tonight: The politics of religion. As the debate

on same sex marriage emerges for the second time in six months, we

hear from a senior Catholic cleric on the Church's challenge to MLAs.

Divided on education. Has sharing trumped integration when it comes

to the future for schools here? And is Stormont a charisma-free

zone or does democracy demand dullness? A former politician

delivers his damning verdict. are doled and second-rate.

And what will our commentators make of that judgement? Tonight we have

Professor Pete Shirlow and first timer, Koulla Yiasouma.

And you can follow the programme on Tonight the Catholic Church stepped

up its opposition to any move to allow same-sex couples the right to

marry in Northern Ireland. A letter setting out the Church's position

is being sent to all MLAs ahead of an Assembly debate next Monday when

Sinn Fein will call for legislation to be changed to allow for same sex

marriage. It's the first time the Catholic Church has taken such a

step, so why now? Father Tim Bartlett is a spokesman for the

Church. Think you for joining us on the

programme. Why stared into this debate at this particular time?

you see yourself, this coming Monday almost out of the brewers

would appear, our Assembly is being asked to consider the future of the

institution of marriage. We are appealing to our politicians on a

number of friends. Say to all the mums and dads out there, they still

matter in terms of bringing up children. The institution of

marriage still matters in society. Marriage between a woman and a man.

To say that the institution of marriage between a woman and a man

is the same as the relationship between a relationship between the

same sex, you can't say they are the same and therefore it isn't

appropriate to say there should be treated as the same all equal.

say you can't say they are the same their supporters of same-sex

marriage would say nothing is being taken away from the traditional

view of marriage. It is the view of extending it. You have nothing to

fear. It is not to do with fear, but what is married and what

constitutes marriage? Society recognises the ability of a woman

and a man and only a woman and a man can do this to come together,

to complement each other in their mutual physical integrity and to

bring children into the world. That has been recognised by society as

the fundamental building blocks of society. Same-sex couples can not

do that. They are not the same. The reason we have managed is

particularly in society. It is because of the nurturing and

rearing of children. Are we saying for the first time in history that

mums and dads don't matter any more? It doesn't matter what type

of relationship, mums and dads don't matter any more. I don't

think commonsense tells us that. Tells us about the letter the

Catholic Church will sent to the MLAs ahead of Monday's debate. You

will e-mail it over the weekend. It is the first time it will be

discussed publicly. What are you going to be saying? Are less is

being finalised but the kind of thing I expected to say is any

debate about this matter from a Christian point of view has to be

from the terms of respect, love and kindness for each other. That

should be the tenor of any debate. There are differences of opinion.

It could save mothers and fathers are important. -- it could save.

For I am not in danger of getting into territory that you should not

be getting into. People elect politicians to debate processes. If

you on the church one to have your say, you have a pulpit, use it.

say our politicians are elected. How many of the politicians, will

they put it to their electorate? I am not sure if they did. Have you

ask people if they are an uncomfortable about those parties

they voted for? One of the reasons we are doing this is the number of

people have been telling the Catholic Church and the

Presbyterian Church, they want somebody leadership from the church

on this issue. They are not happy and comfortable with what some of

our politicians are doing. First of all, the Catholic Church does not

argue this matter as a matter of religion. This is a natural

institution of society, it flows from man and woman. How have

politicians lobbied you on this? am not naming parties but it's

certainly elective people have told to meet their Ernie's. What is your

message to people who have voted in the past for Sinn Fein and the

SDLP? Are you saying to the Catholic faithful you need to think

long and hard about supporting these parties? At the end of the

day how someone votes is a complex decision but we are saying, yes,

how a party takes a position on fundamental issues of morality, of

the Gooda society, is the mix of things you have to decide when you

vote. We make no apology for saying that politicians, there is this

idea that politicians somehow I expected to lead -- leave their

moral conscience by the door of the Assembly, that is nonsense. The are

entitled -- they are entitled to be free to put forward their vision

for what is good for society. are entitled, if they agree with

you, to do that. If they disagreed and they claim to be a member of a

particular faith, or no faith, but if they are part of the faith

community which has a particular set of beliefs, there comes a point

when that fete committee is entitled to say, it is what you

saying consistent with that body of believes? A parish priest Father

Owen Gorman said Catholics are started supporting the DUP because

of the most consistently pro-life and pro traditional marriage party

in Northern Ireland. Do you agree with that? How that is absolutely

true. There is no irony that the Catholic Church has, purses with

the DUP -- Common Purpose with the DUP on this issue? It should be

significant is using devaluation of any Catholic when they exercise

their vote. Catholics, faithful Catholics need to think long and

hard about whether or not they continue to support signed Fein and

the SDLP on this issue -- Sinn Fein? They need to think long and

hard about these issues and how the individual or the parties represent

their position on those views. Then maybe other balancing is used they

have to take into account. That is a careful evaluation everybody has

to make. But they are fundamentally important issues they should be

considered. It is intriguing to hear your thoughts. For now, many

thanks indeed for joining us. Still to come on The View: As a new

report proposes better partnerships between schools, is integrated

education at risk of losing out to Two weeks ago, Senator George

Mitchell told The View how his teenage son was so bored watching

an Assembly debate, he couldn't get out of the public gallery quickly

enough. Could it be true? Is the Assembly too dull? Has Stormont

become a colourless, charisma-free zone? Mark Simpson set out to find

out. Never! Never! I don't give two

balls of roasted snow what advice anybody gives me about those talks.

This paper is unacceptable. I wouldn't say it is with a 40 ft

pole. -- I would not touch it. haven't gone away, you know! This

was the official portrait of the first Assembly, many of the most

colourful characters are no longer at Stormont. Bob McCartney may have

lost his seat but not his opinions. They don't make speeches any more.

They get up and the read out a prepared statement that has got no

connection with what has gone on before and even less with what is

yet to come because the next. It is not a debate in the true sense.

Churchill used to say that are really route -- good speech was the

sustained logical arguments presented in the most attractive

language possible. If you use that as your criteria for colour, and

there is very little colour in the Assembly. Dare I ask, what advice

would you give to the current crop of members? The are beyond advice.

His first Assembly was colourful. There was rarely a dull moment but

we should not forget a kept collapsing and looking back some of

those involved say politics should not be about the personality that

about stability. Almost need to pass the baton on. -- all of us. We

need to pass on encouragements for younger was to enter politics.

Politics is where it's at. Everybody thinks it's really easy

to have a go at politicians. If he goes to the Assembly anywhere in

the world and I have sat in other parliaments in the chamber, in the

gallery watching, and it is boring. That is the nature of legislative

bodies. Hello? Are you here? folks on the hill and what they

used to be. They don't produce the same amount of, the material or

news. Much to the annoyance of one Sunday newspaper editor. They call

it the big white house on the hill, is should be the whitewash. There

is no colour up there. If I put a political story on my front page I

would leave -- lose 10,000 circulation. People aren't

interested. The mundane nature of politics now, unless it is a huge

scandal, politics will not sell newspapers. Is that not a good

thing? No, it is not for a start they are supposed to be the

lifeblood of politics. This manner painted the original portraits. He

sent time can make the power seemed more colourful than it was.

eyes of the world war on us. It is a great place when you were in the

sunlight. Bill Clinton was a friend, Nelson Mandela. Everybody was

watching us. But when the eyes of the world go away it has been it in

the shadows which is much colder. Those personalities went

charismatic, the events were. It is bland because the events are. We

have nothing to react to. If you asked to paint their current

Assembly would you paint it black and white? The personalities may be

harder to recognise. We have had excitement when we need. It takes

10,000 years to come out of an ice age. It was originally painted in

black and white to start work. There are two of three versions of

them underneath. I can remember that. A not everyone has gone,

there are still some characters left. But whatever way you look at

it in recent years, storm and seems education here was published on

Monday. What is shared education? Here is how it is defined in the

report. Two or more schools from different sectors, collaborating to

deliver educational benefits, promoting equality of opportunity,

good relations, equality of identity, respect for diversity and

community cohesion. How does the report define collaboration? That

involves teachers from different schools working together on key

areas like training, curriculum planning and delivering lessons. For

pupils, it means working on specific projects, sports and extracurricular

activity. Rather than uniting opinion on a way forward, familiar

divisions have been exposed. Much of the debate has focussed on academic

selection. The report has drawn criticism from the integrated

sector. With me now is Professor Paul Connolly and Baroness Blood.

You are both very welcome. Thank you for joining us. Paul Connolly, at

what point did the powers-that-be decide that shared education should

be the preferred way forward? powers-that-be in terms of who?

political establishment? Is that what we are working towards?

terms of reference was how we could advance shared education in Northern

Ireland. It was about not just looking at divisions in terms of

religion but in terms of socio-economic background. That was

the terms of reference we were set. What is attractive about shared

education, in your view? We see this as not another initiative, but it

should be the driver for change within the education system. We see

shared education bringing two main benefits. One is in educational

terms, it will increase standards, it should increase attainment. But

in terms of good relations, by bringing children together from

different backgrounds, it should encourage children to develop the

skills they need to work in an open society. Why is shared education a

better model for Northern Ireland than integrated education? It isn't

better. We need to move away from in idea that it is one versus the

other. If you look at our report, there are recommendations in there,

16 and 17, which talk about schools that are popular. The Department of

Education are taking risks. They are for new schools to develop where

there is demand and for existing schools to change their status. The

issue there then is that those are the things that the integrated

sector have been asking for for many years. Baroness Blood, you are not

happy with elements of this report. What is wrong with it? It is too

bland. We talk about shared education, and if you read through

the report, the type of shared education they are speaking about

has been going on here for years and years. It is not a new thing. Try

getting the Department to allow you to increase numbers in a popular

school. It is impossible. They talk about young people working together.

That has been happening for years. I was at the City Hall on Saturday

night celebrating 30 years of community relations in schools. It's

not a new idea. This report, I welcome it because it opens up the

whole aspect of talking about it. It is too bland. There is no innovation

in this report. Peter Robinson, the First Minister, says it is an

opportunity lost. Are you saying he has that right? He has got part of

it right, yes. I think the panel that was set by the Minister had a

real opportunity here to put through a report that would be innovative

and taking risks and that has not happened. Did they miss a trick in

your view because they didn't come down on integrated education as

being the preferred model for the way forward? No. We have never said

an integrated education, that it was the only way forward. We don't

believe it. We do believe in parental choice which is a big thing

in the report. I would like to know how the report intends parental

choice to be gauged. Who is going to ask? They are going to get the same

answers. What is the answer to that? How do you square that circle?

me say, May is right. We have had 30 years or more of schools coming

together. The big issue we have learnt from the research is that

schools that come together for short periods of time, without sustained

contact, that is where the problem is. It has no effect. There's a

fundamental difference between those old schemes and shared education. If

you look at our report, I disagree with May. We have a radical

conception of what shared education is about. It is about local schools

having deeper relationships, professional development of

teachers, working together, sharing expertise, children learning

together in a better way. Crucially, we are asking for equality and

inclusion to be at the heart of the system. That has not been happening

before. You are shaking your head? With the greatest of respect, Paul

is showing you what integrated education is about. Shared education

has been on the books here for years. It has always been privately

funded. If you read the report, we are being told that private funders

would be interested in this. They have been doing it for years.

There's good results coming out of shared education. They are not being

taken up by the Department. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I

might press her by saying it is like you are reinventing the wheel. You

haven't gone far enough? I think if you look at our recommendations, we

are asking for the equality legislation to be put on to schools,

Section 75. That is a radical change. We are asking for a

fundamental review from young children through to the youth

service to talk about controversial issues in school. The support that

teachers need. These have taken us forward. May says about integrated

education. This is good integrated education. We would disagree. The

starting point is parental choice. We have a vision of a more diverse

education system where parental choice is at the heart of that. Some

parents with strong faith convictions for their children would

want their children to be brought up in integrated schools. You talk

about parental choice. Critics of the report have said you are keen on

the notion of parental choice, except where that choice is in

favour of academic selection, which you don't like? Yeah. Parental

choice is important. As long as everybody has that choice. As long

as that choice is open to all. Including parents who want academic

selection? Let's say we set up new schools in Northern Ireland and that

is open for parental choice but only for white parents. We would be up in

arms, quite rightly. In terms of this debate - this is a very

important point. There's been hysterical reaction over the last

few days. We have had politicians calling us right-wing fascists. The

key issue here, all of those people, not one of them addressed our

evidence. I would want to give one statistic. If we look at children

entitled to free school meals, the odds of those getting a place at

grammar school is one to five. For every other child, it is evens. My

challenge to people who have been criticising us on this issue, let's

have their views on that statistic and they have two choices. They can

say that is acceptable and they need to justify why or they need to say

it is unacceptable and they need to tell us what they are doing about

it. OK. All right. I am sure they will be keen to have that debate

with you. This is a very significant report. It is a weighty report. A

lot of effort has gone into it. What needs to happen now? Let's see how

many of the recommendations the Department and the Minister takes

up. There have been report after report in the education system. They

are gathering dust. If we want to have parental choice here, let's

find a mechanism for doing it. Let's find a mechanism for working it out.

All right. That is an interesting point and a positive note to leave

it on. Thank you both very much for joining us on the programme. Plenty

for our commentators to discuss tonight. Joining us is Koulla

Yiasouma - welcome - and here alongside her is Professor Pete

Shirlow. Nice to see you. You were in the States? I was.Let's talk

about shared education. You both have a keen interest in education,

obviously. Koulla Yiasouma, interesting contribution or did it

underperform? Was it a missed opportunity? I think it's very

difficult to disagree with anything in this report. I welcome,

particularly what Professor Connolly just said about Section 75. I

welcome the assertion that we have to do away with academic selection.

That has to happen. I do agree with Baroness Blood when she says, not

that it is bland, it could have gone further. We are asking our children

to do a number of things that we have been asking them to do, in the

23 years I have been closely involved with Northern Ireland. We

are not asking our adults to do that. I would have wanted to see a

report like this as part of a shared future for Northern Ireland policy.

We are trying to do something in our schools but we are not doing them in

our communities. All of the people who criticise this report are

criticising aspects of this report and they never question failure. If

only one in five school kids on free school meals get to grammar schools,

why is that not being addressed? Kids in deprived environments are

getting a second-class education. That's right. I have come back from

Canada - you couldn't get a more ethnically diverse society than

that. Canada is a major economy. One thing we know is that social mixing

creates better results. I agree. This is why this report is the

beginning of something. We work with children and we send them into

communities that are segregated. We can't do that. Let's move on. Let's

look at your moment of the week. was interested in the campaign to

stop the Maze Long Kesh and I think one of the problems in our society

is this argument that the Maze Long Kesh site will be a shrine. And

there is a Unionist intolerance of this becoming a shrine. There are

shrines in our society. If we drive a mile from the studio, we will

Segar dens of remembrance. -- we will Segar dens of remembrance. --

we will see gardens of remembrance. The one thing that is important -

the transformation centre is not going to be a shrine to anything.

Your moment of the week - it is a picture? It came this morning. I

think we have to applaud and amaze at the photograph on the front-page

of the Irish News. Genius photography. I would like to think

it was by complete design. It is going to be an iconic image of this

year. It is. It is an amazing picture. It is Willy Russell at the

launch of the Protestant Coalition. It looks like face painting. But it

is not. It is how serious he looks and what he is trying to say and

there is that image. What is it they say? A picture says a thousand

words. This one does! Yes. Tweet of the week? My tweet of the week, as I

understand Pete has yet to discover Twitter, my tweet comes from a

wonderful columnist and commentator from across the water called Owen

see the start of Lazarus rising aden with Fianna Fail Ard Fheis. We saw

Michael Martin talking about the failure of the Executive which is

having a poke at Sinn Fein. There is a big fight between them over who is

going to win seats. You are look ahead to something we have already

touched on? I call upon the Assembly to vote for the call that is coming

from Sinn Fein that says they should bring forward the necessary

legislation to allow for same-sex marriage and they should continue to

bring it forward every six months. Interesting contribution from the

Catholic Church? They have every right to voice their views. The

Catholic Church is wrong in this instance. You can't have a faith

based on love and exclude people. It has upped the ante. Yes.The

first time the Catholic Church has written a letter like this? You are

trying to hit at those who are faith-driven. If we want a modern,