27/03/2014 The View

Tonight, paying the price for deadlock, failure to agree on

welfare reform means up to ?1 billion could be lost from the

executive budget over the next five years. What is the cost of

agreement? The DUP's Sammy Williams -- Sammy Wilson, and Sinn Fein's

Alex Maskey are with me. Power to the people - could opposition to and

into as Michael interconnector mean lights out in Northern Ireland?

There is no way this countryside should be spoiled with this monster

project coming through here. Also on the programme...

Visit Belfast says the advert, so why is there no and unholy row

brewing in City Hall about inviting one potential big-name visitor.

And we are back in Commentators' Corner with views of all of the

above, academic Cathy Gormley-Heenan and commentator Newton Emerson. You

can also join the debate on Twitter.

Good evening. Stop burying your head is in the sand and implement welfare

reform or face the financial penalties. That was the start

message to our politicians from the Work and Pensions Secretary in

November last year. Five months later, the two main part -- parties

remain diametrically or post on the issue. The DUP warns we are sitting

on a financial time bomb puts or -- which will go off when the Treasury

starts to claw back what has been saved here. Sinn Fein says it will

not permit what it thinks are Tory cuts. It is a Sager with a

convoluted history. The Westminster government has

coached welfare reform in high-minded terms.

The Westminster government has coached welfare reform in We are

aiming to make the benefits system much fairer and more affordable to

the bridges poverty, worklessness, and welfare dependency.

That did not impress MLAs who thought its use like the bedroom tax

were not acceptable. Nevertheless, there was enough

agreement for Nelson McCausland to introduce the Bill at Stormont in

October 2012. The cracks soon started to show. The British

government have promised people here, they have promised ourselves

that they will give us the flexibility to meet needs here.

They have not done any of that. We have gained key flexibility switch

all of the parties agreed on. The Bill was withdrawn in April last

year. Westminster is expected to levy

millions of pounds of penalties on Stormont.

Joining me now are Sammy Wilson and Alex Maskey.

Sammy Wilson, first of all, it looks like you have been outmanoeuvred by

Sinn Fein. It is the Party standing up for

vulnerable people, you just want to increment welfare reform as soon as

possible. It is actually making vulnerable people even more

vulnerable. We are paying back money to

Westminster we should be paying back, ?5 million per month at the

moment. The Bill has started to be levied on us. When the adjustments

are made, these are end of your adjustments. Secondly, welfare

reform would have benefited well over 100,000 people who would have

found that their benefits would have gone up. There have been about

90,000 people whose benefits would have gone down, but they were

protected for the next five years. Of course, we had also gained

considerable concessions on, for example, the spare bedroom subsidy,

the methods of payments, on rate relief, and on helping people who

would have had assessments done on their health where Stormont was

going to pay for medical assessments for them. Why has there been no deal

so far? I will tell you why, it is very

simple. Sinn Fein have made it clear from the very start. First of all

they were not happy about this but realised it was inevitable. The

asked for certain changes to be made, all of those changes have been

granted and they have asked for no more changes, so there is nothing

more to negotiate. The big problem is that, in the Republic, Sinn Fein

are opposing welfare cuts, and I reckon that the Sinn Fein dog is

being held by the tail in Northern Ireland because they are now

hostages to what Sinn Fein politicians in the Republic want.

The people who are going to suffer are the people of Northern Ireland.

When people who should be getting an increase in benefits don't get it,

they can blame the internal wranglings of Sinn Fein. When we pay

money out of that should be going on schools and hospitals, they can

blame the internal wrangling in Sinn Fein. When people currently

administering these benefits lose their jobs, they can blame that on

Sinn Fein. That is what it is all about. Are you basically saying,

just to be clear, it is your understanding that there is a deal

on the table, there is an agreement, a package of measures and

Sinn Fein has all but signed up to it?

I am going further than that. First of all, Sinn Fein accepted

that welfare reform was inevitable. Secondly, they asked for certain

things to be secured and all of those and more were secured. The

essence of the deal is fair and they simply cannot find it in themselves

to come to the Assembly and vote for it because of internal Party

wrangling. That is interesting to hear, Alex Maskey, is it not?

Sammy Wilson is saying you agree welfare reforms are inevitable, you

asked for and got concessions, there is a deal on the table but for

whatever reason you will not sign up. First of all, Sinn Fein never

signed up for anything. We made it very clear from day one

we were opposed to welfare cuts, and that applies whether it is in Dublin

and -- London. We made that consistently clear, we needed clear

through Martin McGuiness and we said it publicly, we said it at the last

member full asked Mike of the last meeting. We have a Party across the

island of Ireland. We are against is the cuts agenda and that is a

consistent Party policy. How come the Sammy Wilson says you have

agreed to it? I don't like to go into private

discussions, but when I met Sammy's colleague, Nelson McCausland, couple

of weeks ago with his adviser, I actually sat out.

Sammy had made a point on radio that Sinn Fein had signed up to

something, and I pressed him very hard. Stephen Brimstone at that

meeting refuted that. I asked him, who was at this so-called meeting?

And he said Martin McGuiness. Are you effectively now telling me that

you were led to believe by Martin McGuiness that we were signed on for

this so-called package? That is completely untrue. I want to review

it that. That is a question of integrity for my Party.

I understand that but... We never signed on for ideal...

You did not sign on, let's not dance on the head of a pin year.

Signed on might mean something else but agreed in general terms?

What we agreed was we had come to terms with a number of flexibility

is that we had got. Primarily around some administrative

changes, which are important in their own right. I will also argue

that we would not have got here if we had not been arguing from day one

to get them. In fairness, all of the parties agreed on a range of things

in welfare reform. My argument here is, and I have put this to the DUP,

the DUP have said that they are against certain aspects of the

Welfare Reform Bill. Tell us what they are and we will join them,

because we do not accept this Bill as part of a wider cuts agenda. We

do not believe enough has been done by the British government, who

acknowledged that conditions your are much worse than anywhere else,

including across Britain. -- acknowledged that conditions here.

Unfortunately none of the individual Jew named are here tonight to speak

for themselves. I only making that point, Mark,

because the DUP is in Felling are a Party has said we will go for the

deal and I had to squash that because we certainly did not.

Sinn Fein have accepted welfare reform is inevitable. They asked for

certain things to be obtained. They were unhappy with some of the things

we were unhappy with as well. All of those things and more have been

delivered, and, that being the case, I think it would be helpful for the

debate, that being the case if there are more things I am happy with what

we have got. If there are more things which Sin Fein say they need,

why has it been that since the conclusion of those negotiations

seven months ago we have had not one more thing mentioned by Sinn Fein?

That is why I say it is all to do with internal Party wrangling and

people will pay for this in their jobs, reduced benefits and in the

cuts there will be two services in Northern Ireland.

I will go to Alex Maskey on that point in a second, but I wanted to

clear this up once and for all. Alex Maskey says that the DUP special

advisers said the Deputy First Minister was at a meeting where they

signed up to this agreement. Is that your understanding? That is not my

understanding. Is that your understanding?

Alex Maskey says that is what someone close to the DUP says, is

that right to Michael I was not at that meeting...

But is that your understanding? Other sources have told us that the

Deputy First Minister had agreed on this and then renege on that. That

is my understanding but even without being there I can tell you that on

the principle of welfare reform Sinn Fein have said they accept it has to

happen because we cannot get into a situation where we pay ?250 million

per year back to the Treasury and we also find ourselves having to

purchase a computer system and put 1500 people out of work.

Secondly, Sinn Fein asked for certain things to be done, all of

which have been met, so the logical step, Mark, is to say, now you have

obtained that, why you impose pain on the people of Northern Ireland by

refusing to put the legislation through? What is the answer to

that, Alex Maskey? What are you holding out for?

We have some change, which is all very welcome. But it doesn't go

anywhere near enough, because the bottom line of this, the so-called

concessions we have... What is it you want, Alex?

First of all, I want to stop the ?450 million coming out per annum

from local people's pockets. By giving back ?250 million per year

to the government at Westminster? You are telling this programme

tonight that you are happy... There is a lot of logic in that!

You are telling the audience tonight are happy with the changes we have

secured, fair enough. I am telling you that Sinn Fein is

not, never were and will not be happy. We do not have any deal to

get from you, we have to talk directly to the British government.

I would prefer that all the parties at the executive work together to

get the necessary changes to make life easier for the people we

collectively represent. You have actually conceded... You are dancing

around it! What will you talk to the government about?

What will you ask them for? They have a cuts agenda, they have

an austerity agenda, they will slash minimum ?450 million...

But your action is costing more money. Simon Hamilton told us two

weeks ago that in five years it will cost ?1 billion. Iain Duncan Smith

has been telling people that this will be rolled out within a certain

time frame. Even this last week or two he has

been told that will not happen, it is impossible, all of the

predictions are nonsense, the Office for Budget Responsibility in

Westminster, the Public Accounts Committee and other offices have

rubbished the attempts to intimate welfare reform. Why would we be

headlong into millions of pounds of cuts into our community where it

cannot be done in Britain? Why would we impose a failed system...

If we had an election may be the public would have been leaving this

last year. The elections will come and go. We have an anti-austerity

programme north and south of this island, that is consistent, people

have to understand that. Why do you want to be a sorry get Tory?

Why not stand shoulder to shoulder with Alex Maskey and say to the

British government we are not tolerating this? You and I have

tried, and we are still finding out what he wants, shoulder to shoulder?

To stop ?500 million being taken out of people's pockets in Northern

Ireland. First of all, welfare spending will

go up by ?500 billion by the end of this Assembly term.

-- ?500 million. The increase will not be as great as it would have

been had the existing systems debut. -- system speed. -- stayed. If

anyone thinks I government at Westminster which is already getting

flack for the cuts and of the changes in welfare is going to say

that Northern Ireland, where we do not have one vote, will be exempt

from this, they are living in cloud cuckoo land. Thirdly, he is saying

he will oppose cuts. We have nearly given back all of the money we got

in the budget as a result of the inactivity from Sinn Fein. What will

swing it for you? When we started discussions

recently, I cannot say at all whether we will get any change out

of that, but I can tell you that we will be fighting as effectively as

we can. I would rather we were doing that

with all of the parties together, putting our shoulders to the wheel

to stop these multi-million pounds of cuts. In the meantime, the people

who would gain from welfare reform, the 112,000 people, are going to

lose out. The people who rely on money for

education and health, which we are now giving back to Westminster, are

going to lose out. The 1500 people who currently

administer the welfare system for other parts of the UK are going to

lose their jobs. I don't think that is a good deal, Mark. You are happy

with the Beagle Bill. No meeting of minds tonight, thank

you for joining us tonight. Still to come on The View, is the

time right for the Pope to visit Belfast.

We will be hearing from a representative who think cities and

his Ulster Unionist Party apart who thinks a visit could lead to unrest

on the streets. First, could we be facing power cuts and blackouts in

the near future? That is the worry if a link is not built within the

next few years. The north/south interconneckor will not be ready

until 2019. Is a controversial project. People do not want pylons

near homes, they want them buried underground instead. Those backing

the scheme say it is too expensive and not feasible.

Stephen Walker has been investigating.

What happens here will affect everyone on the island of Ireland.

If the north-south interconneckor is built, it means more --

interconnector is built, it means the service will be more reliable.

That is only part of the story. There are concerns about where it is

being located and worries about the way it is going to be built There is

an existing connection, but it has limited capacity. This new scheme,

which could cost around ?250 million, links woodland to County

Tyrone. This is where the plan is to have the pylons, right in this

valley? It is coming down, right past the grey house in the hollow...

. Business Businessman John Woods says local life will be disrupted

and is against the plans. We know how close the pylons will be to the

houses? 150 metres to each house - it is quite unacceptable. If you can

look at the beautiful green, clean countryside we have here, there's no

way this countryside should be spoilt with this monster project

coming here. Others insist if the conneckor goes a-- connecter goes

ahead the oh -- conne consider, tor goes ahead the power lines must be

placed under ground. Planning Ministers north and south listen to

the concerns of people and take a proper investigation and list on the

the communities who live along the way. I think if common sense

prevails, then the cable should be underground.

So, how feasible is it to place the connector under ground? I think the

reality is that it is possible to do some undergrounding of this type of

cable. Nowhere in the world is there anything like the length of capable

talked about for the entire route of the interconnector. The costs

increase considerably. They can be up to 10 times the cost of

overoverheadlines. -- over head Lines. During the troubles a

north-south line were often attacked. Northern Ireland has

another electricity link - this inter-connector link links Scotland.

It makes a new connector all the more necessary. The timing of this

project is critical. Originally the connector was meant to be

constructed by 2017. With that looking increasingly unlikely there

are fears that Northern Ireland could face power cuts and blackouts.

By 2015-2016, we could be facing serious energy and security. Ie, if

we don't find a solution between now and then we risk some, albeit

extreme circumstances, the lights going off in some places. That

concern is shared by Northern Ireland Electricity.

That would mean there would be an increasing risk that arrangements

would have to be used and that would mean a rota system being used. How

would Northern Ireland cope if electricity demand outstrips supply?

We actually do need a co-ordinated plan and I think it has to come from

Arlene Foster as minister. I know she doesn't have all the money or

leave verage. She has to have -- leverage, she has to have the

capacity to say. At the moment norp of does not have a system with

Northern Ireland or Great Britain. That is how they should work. It is

up to the minister to knock some heads together and say make it work

quickly. Has the minister got a Plan B. We have the time until 2016 to

make sure we have it covered. It is only two years. It is only two

years. Therefore we need to get on with it. That is why they went out

this month and asked for the additional capacity. How worried are

you that if the inter-connector is not built there'll be blackouts? If

the market doesn't come one the solution I have always the power to

intervene as a Government, myself. So we can intervene as a department

and set up generation. If new generators do not come forward it is

a serious position to be in? It will be a serious position. We will take

that power, if necessary. This debate is far from over.

Planning approval for the connector has yet to be granted. There is a

review of projects in the south. A public inquiry also remains

adjourned. This power-game is going to need extra time.

Now, should an invitation be extended to Pope Francis to visit

Belfast? That is what the city council will debate after the after

the SDLP asked him to include Belfast.

One councillor said it could lead to disturbances. Joining me are Pat

McCarthy of the SDLP, who proposed the motion and the Ulster Unionist,

Jim Rodgers, who raised those concerns. Good tofrng you both.

McCarthy -- good evening to you both. Pat McCarthy, why suggest

inviting the Pope here now? Last month there was a motion inviting

Pope Francis to the Republic. It is an ideal opportunity to invite him

north of the border, up to our capital city and show the world that

we have progressed and that we can get along together. I think it is a

good, positive step. Do you still feel that after the reaction from

Jim Rodgers and others today? I don't know about others. Jim's own

party does not support his views. They have issued a statement saying

they would welcome a visit by Pope Francis to Belfast. There were

others on social media not supportive of the idea either. What

is your difficulty the suggestion when your own party supports it?

Well, I think you have to clarify what my party was saying. It was not

saying something different to me. I have no problem with the Pope coming

to Belfast, but not in the present climate. We have problems in the

city, which are concerning. We have demonstrations. We have protests. We

have flag issues. All these need to be addressed. The last thing we need

is for the pontiff to come to the capital city of Northern Ireland and

to get a hostile reception. That is why I said today and I stand by it,

there are other parts of Northern Ireland that he could come to,

whether it -- where there would be little or no trouble. If we can move

on these difficulties we have, then it is possibility. Presently, in my

eyes, it most certainly isn't. My party believes in civil liberty for

all, regardless of your religion, colour, class or creed. We have... .

If you probe it more deeply with the party you will find what I am saying

is correct. It is about getting the right time. It does not say that in

the statement. I think that Pat should have consulted with the other

political parties in the City Hall. One of his colleagues had a

conversation with me and he talked about the likelihood of the Pope

coming to Northern Ireland and he mentioned Belfast. My words were,

"Don't go there at this present moment. Move it somewhere else. If

you bring it to Belfast, you are going to heighten tension." I want

to see this city moving forward. I want to see everyone treated in a

good fashion. I do not want to see trouble on our streets. I personally

feel... Pat and I may have our differences, but we work closely

together to try and bring about the best of Belfast. We are only a short

time away from two elections. On Thursday 22nd May, local Government

and European. I firmly believe... He says this has nothing to do with

elections. If you look at the SDLP, some of their utterances over the

last couple of months, they are trying to out-flank Sinn Fein. They

are playing to the gallery to get support on the 22nd May. What about

the issue... What about the issue about timing? Three years ago Her

Majesty, the Queen, visited the republic. There were people like Jim

who threatened all sorts of demonstrations - we don't want her

here, we don't want her there. She went ahead and faced them down. It

was a total success and encouraged relationships between north and

south and between Ireland and Britain. We have a chance to do the

same. Jim lives in a never, never, Neverland of his own. People have

moved on. What about the people who are concerned about the removal of

the Union Flag? We will always have... We will always have people

who will say the time will never be right. We have to move on.

We have to move on. Why not say to people who might be concerned and

who may agree with you, why don't you say to them, look, just if you

don't like it, don't go out - don't watch the television, don't read the

newspapers because this is a city for everyone. You tell this is a

city for everyone. What about the people who want the Pope to come?

Pat made a comment about the Queen, I was never opposed to Queen

Elizabeth the second... He was saying other people in the south

were opposed. He was also saying, I am not part of never, never, never.

I reach out to everyone in this community. What about the Pope? Let

me put the record straight! 15% of the population of our city are Roman

Catholics, to use your terminology, you have turned around and said

their spiritual leader should not come to the city. He should go up to

the border, where there are more Roman Catholics up there. If the

people of our city want to go and see him, let them get on a bus. You

have obviously annoyed Pat McCarthy and perhaps a lot of people who...

How do you respond to that charge, that you are making Catholics

second-class citizens? I am not anti-pope. The present

probe -- Pope Francis has been given tremendous leadership.

But you do not want him to come to Belfast at the moment? At the

present moment, but things can change, provided the people out

protesting or stopping the Orange Order getting through to their

home, if we can move on then hopefully things can change.

Nothing to do with the Orange Order. I am sorry we are of time but I've

had -- because I would like to continue the discussion but we have

to leave it there, thank you, Pat MacArthur young Jim Rogers.

Our commentators Cathy Gormley-Heenan and Newton Emerson

have been listening keenly to what has been said in the studio. Let's

go back to the main story tonight, welfare reform and that debate

between Sammy Wilson and Alex Maskey. What did you make of it,

first of all, Cathy Gormley-Heenan? I think everyone is in agreement

that the Welfare Reform Bill will eventually be passed in Northern

Ireland. I think tonight for a lot of viewers they will struggle to

understand the figures being bandied about since last October. We will

lose 5 million, 10 million, half a trillion. These things are not

helpful for people. It boils down to Will Northern Ireland households be

better off or not? Sammy Wilson said that people who would have been

worse off will be protected for the next five years. I have an issue

with that because often the people whose benefits will be cut the

hardest will be those who are the most vulnerable in our society and

may not know how to avail themselves of the available money.

Newton, do you believe there is a deal on the table? Whether it was

signed or not, it was reported in October that a deal had been reached

and they were specific on the outline of that.

Basically everything would be passed except the bedroom tax which would

be deferred until more smaller social housing could be built. That

would be covered by the block grant. Sinn Fein again raised this deal in

January just after the doctor has talks. It is a very good positioning

movement -- movement from both parties. The DUP can elect fiscally

responsible and Sinn Fein can look as if it is supporting the

vulnerable. It is mutually beneficial?

It is a mutually beneficial row for them.

This takes them up until April 22 then they have a month to get it

through Stormont. Stormont has rushed both welfare rules through

before in the last week before summer recess and I would expect the

same thing to happen again. Not without further concessions.

What further concessions? The point is we get a second bite of

the cherry once it is past. The regulatory framework has to be

in place for the implementation of the Bill and that is where the

parties can perhaps come to agreement on the conditions that can

be put in place, the sanctions that can be levied against people and so

on. Let's talk about whether the Pope

should come to the visit -- should come to visit the city of Belfast if

that invitation is extended in the future. What did you make of that

debate? That was very depressing.

Of course the Pope should come to Belfast, in many ways that is the

last great event of the peace process and I thought the Pope going

to Dublin was very apt. There may be a few issues around organising it.

Because it is such a significant thing it will have to be initiated

by something more important than one Party at Belfast City Council. It

would have to be discussed at London, the Vatican, the Irish

government and Stormont. We are a long way from that. Not really, the

Queen is meeting the Pope next month in the Vatican, she could extend the

invitation herself if she wanted to. Is this a real disagreement or is it

artificial? I think it is artificial. I don't

think Jim Rogers's comments about the potential for a hostile

reception are necessarily what would happen. The Pope is well regarded by

Catholics and non-Catholics alike. We will have to leave it there,

folks, thank you very much indeed. I am back with the Sunday Politics at

1135 on Sunday, goodbye for now.