12/06/2014 The View

The police did stand-by when people were putting flags up and I do not

want to see that again because the police have brought themselves into

disrepute. But this evening, the police tell

The View they're changing their Also tonight -

it's been years in the making, and tonight we get an exclusive

first look at the Executive's draft Plus, crying foul on the political

game - Alex Kane and Paul McFadden are monitoring developments

in Commentators' Corner. And you can, of course,

join the debate on Twitter - Flags, and what to do about them,

is a problem which our politicians But now, in an apparent change

of policy, the PSNI has told The View it will in future treat

the erection of loyalist flags in one mixed area of south Belfast

as a breach of the peace. We'll have political reaction to

that move in just a moment, but first this report from

Gareth Gordon... Love them, load them, flags are hard

to ignore. 4000 flying here in July alone, just along main roads.

to ignore. 4000 flying here in July alone, just This is one of self

Belfast's main arterial routes. It is no longer a Unionist stronghold

but you would never know it from these pictures. It has changed but

the flags tell another story. 57% of people who live here are Catholic.

27% are Protestants. 31% call themselves British. 36% are Irish

and 29% are Northern Irish. Clearly, this is a loyalist area. It does not

matter too much because there is no hassle. It is time for and the

bands, a very enjoyable day. I prefer them not to be any. It brings

the area down. The flags appeared on a Thursday night during the election

campaign, under the noses of the police who are calling for Elektra

presented this. Duncan Morrow is a former head of the community

relations Council who stood for Alliance in the elections. I rang

people up and ask them what they were doing, and they were present

when the flags were put up. Part of the issue for us is, I suppose, are

people safe putting them up or taking them down? Is there a threat

that makes it look like the rule of law is not operating? Sinn Fein also

disgust the issue. Police officers did stand-by when flags were going

up and I do not want to see them do that. They have brought themselves

into disrepute with their behaviour around the flag. After discussing

the issue, we have a better understanding of what needs to

happen. What needs to happen? If someone is putting a flag up, that

will be seen as a breach of the peace because that could lead to

disorder. The police have told us they have had a rethink. In a

statement released to this programme they say further enquiries back the

assessment that tensions are... This local DUP representatives said

the police have enough to do without worrying about flags. We have

experienced a rise in crime over the course of the year and I believe the

PSNI has better things to be doing with its time than sending officers

shimmying up lamp posts to remove flags. If the representative of

South Belfast believe that is the best use of their time, I think he

should go in look what the priorities are. The actual flags

themselves are getting bigger. These have gone up all around Belfast.

This academic was funded by the executive to survey the growing

forest of flags. We have draw. His collection is around 120. At one

level, you have to have something. If you mess around with this stuff,

you take some down and twice as many will go up. I have some sympathy. On

the other hand, the use of the market territory affects

economically these places. We have done survey work and that shows it

economically affects places. We do have a very real problem, and

sometimes that slips into real intimidation, and it is the

police's job to look into that. It appears they are listening. In this

part of self Belfast at least. -- South L4. -- Belfast.

With me now to discuss tonight's development

and the forthcoming talks on flags, parades and the past are

Gerry Kelly from Sinn Fein, Chris Lyttle from the Alliance Party, and

from our Foyle studio we're joined by Gregory Campbell from the DUP.

How significant an apparent change of policy is this by the police?

It is a step forward, I think, by the police. In North fast and other

places, police officers were saying that the policy was that they would

not remove flags. They clear indication now is that where they

are in these areas... During the talks, the Unionists would not budge

at all on the flags and one suggestion was, let's start off

small, what about hospitals, places of worship and schools being no flag

areas? Just to start the process of? They would not budge on that.

There have been a few statements issued, and we will hear from

Gregory Cambell, Unionist feel Sinn Fein will attempt to exploit this

new policy on behalf of the PSNI in other areas # Parliamentary 's were

exploiting it all over the place. I think we have to go at it easy. They

are not arguing about flags which are coming down in areas where they

are most welcome. On the road, people were saying we don't want

that. . They are not going to take down every flag in the north, we are

going to be sensible about the issue. Gregory Campbell. What could

be wrong about sensitivity on behalf of the police to an issue that is

causing concern in a mixed part of Dell fast? -- Belfast there is

nothing wrong with that. I have examples in my constituency where

tricolours are trying to come down for months on end. Are we going to

have the same sensitivity by police there? Will they go up forcibly and

remove them? Will this start at trends -- a trend? Will they be

subject to close please scrutiny while criminals will be even more

difficult to apprehends while please officers are trying to bring down

her flag? Is that the level that we are going to descend to? What is the

position of the DUP on this? I get a mixed message. You are concerned

about getting tricolours down but your party colleague in south

Belfast is saying the police have more important things to do. I just

said what we were concerned about. Evil have more important rings to

do. But you want to be tricolours down? No, no. The police cannot say

that we will intervene there are not intervene anywhere else. We have to

be very, very careful here that we do not exasperate and already

delicate position. OK, you do not want to do that but what about the

people responsible for putting the flags up? The length of the Armagh

Road in south Belfast is no longer a Protestant stronghold. Presumably,

that is designed to intimidate people? What about people who are

uncomfortable about that and do not want to see those flags? In various

areas of Northern Ireland we had a, and for the most part, it worked

well. Sometimes there were problems but it worked reasonably well. That

was with local groups and communities and representatives.

They had discussions about how long they could go up for and when they

would come down. Those talks fell about as a result of Belfast City

Council's decision 18 months ago to remove the union flag. Is it tip for

tat? Is it revenge? No, it is not. If they make an extraordinary

decision which sends shock waves across the community, they have do

say to themselves, was that the right decision and should be revisit

it in an effort to de-escalate tensions? Do you see this latest

developments as progress, is it a policy you would like to see rolled

out across Northern Ireland? I think people are fed up with the

application of leadership from Sinn Fein. The political parties have the

power and authority to take this out of the hands of the police by

reaching an agreement on the issue of flags. One party put forward

proposals in the past process to deal with these issues. The DUP

point-blank refused to address this issue. DUP and Sinn Fein have done

nothing to address the issue in seven years. There was an original

protocol in place which said, no flags on arterial route. The

political parties have the power to get this out of the hands of the

police. You what about the strategy at the moment? Could you see a

person dance -- circumstance where officers would be able to arrest

people who put up flags? Would this not further heighten tensions? The

failure of political leadership is putting the police in a difficult

position. The public have spoken. 75% of people do not support flags

on lamp posts for a long period of time. They want to see a timeline

for the display of flags, and the political parties need to put a

process in place where that can be delivered. Enforcement may be

necessary at some point in time by the police, of course. The flags are

up at the moment and the police are not going to take them down. There

was a lack of clarity around that. They have said it is not their job.

This is an issue that is damaging community relations and it is

damaging to traders in the areas. There is an opportunity to do this

in upcoming talks and There is an opportunity to do this

got on with dealing with this. The talks are about several things, and

flags are part of the agenda, or we think they will be, certainly an

outstanding issue to be resolved. What is the status of those talks at

the moment? When you talk to Sinn Fein, there is momentum and this is

an attempt to resolve the issue in a small window of opportunity. If we

want to get this thing sorted out, what has happened is the DUP seems

to be looking over their shoulder at the Ulster Unionists. There are

mixed messages coming through. If there is an issue where there is a

mixed community, that is something that needs to get sorted out. In

areas where any ordinary person would have said, schools, places of

worship... An invitation by Gerry Kelly to talk about this, try to --

Trico laws in a mixed area. This is a picture of Orange proceeding to

their church. There are no flags, no banners, no drums, nothing there

except Orangemen walking to church. Sinn Fein went to the parades

commission to lodge an objection. They then had four councillors who

tried to stop that peaceful procession with no flag, no banner,

no drums. Sinn Fein want no Orangemen about the place. Sinn Fein

and Gerry Kelly need to realise that this is not going to work. They need

to get real and understand that we are talking about a shared future,

that is what most people want. We have to knuckle down, accept

cultural identities. It is not easy for people in my community but it is

not easy for Republicans either and they need to wake up and show some

leadership and get people to accept peaceful parades that art

inoffensive. They chose to object and take offence. It is not one-way

traffic because I am sure Gerry Kelly will quote chapter and verse

about incidents where parades were not sensitive to local residents. We

need leadership on both sides. Yes, and we are prepared to give that.

How? It is a continuation of the talks we engaged in last year. But

there needs to be an initiative taken on either side to try to

negotiate and see if we can get a resolution. It is not a resolution

for Sinn Fein to sit back and say that they will just sit there. There

was a deal after the Hillsborough talks but you could not sell it to

the Orange order. Are you prepared to put that back on the table? That

was a few years ago and we have been back to the table since then and we

are prepared to get negotiations going but be under no illusion,

everybody needs to step up in the next two to three weeks because

there is a very difficult situation brewing on the streets in Northern

Ireland. I want to hear from Chris Lyttle. What about the leadership

that is not being shown by Sinn Fein? The message that that sends

out, Sinn Fein objecting to Orangemen progressing to church

without any flags or anthems. He is not happy about that, he is showing

the picture. If he means asked talking to the parades commission,

that is legitimate. According to impartial observers who were

there... Sinn Fein and the residents as well as the DUP and others, what

we are down to is, are they prepared to sit down? We had the opportunity

to do that. All of the parties accept it despite the fact that

there was pain on all sides. Who will chair these talks and do they

stand any chance of success? We have the DUP and Sinn Fein tonight, who

are responsible for community relations. All public areas should

be shared space and we need significant leadership from the

parties. It is about behaving in a respectful balanced way when you are

in that space. Both Gerry Kelly and Gregory Campbell say they are

willing to show leadership and they recognised that difficult decisions

need to be made. Is there a tiny chink of hope? I hope so but we have

had seven years of this and we have put forward proposals that could

solve this. I hope we see something from these talks for the sake of our

community. We will see what happens when the talks get under way. Thank

you, gentlemen, very much indeed. Northern Ireland hasn't exactly

covered itself in glory these last few weeks

as far as race relations go. Anti-Islamic rhetoric and attacks

on immigrants and on their homes have led to calls

for politicians to unveil their Well, tonight here on The View,

we can reveal what is It's called A Sense of Belonging

and it outlines six main aims: the elimination of racism,

racial inequality and discrimination and the promotion

of equality of opportunity. It aims to combat racism

and race hate crime. To ensure people

from minority ethnic backgrounds To increase participation,

representation and a sense of To strengthen relations

between people of different faiths And to help minority communities

develop leadership at local The document also makes

a strong link between racism Our Political Editor, Mark

Devenport, has been reading the Thank you for joining us. It is a

substantial, 16 page document. Are there any particular surprises come

do you think? Not really. We have to bear in mind the fact that it is

four years out of date, a previous strategy lasted until 2010, and this

is due to run until 2024. It was the document that Anna Lo was getting

upset about because she said there had not been a strategy despite the

upsurge in racist attacks. Most people would agree that you need to

combat racism and hate crime and try to make sure that there is equal

service provision to people no matter what race they are. There is

discussion of a possible seventh came, about the right to maintain

one's cultural identity. There is a debate about whether that is a good

thing to include because obviously whilst to some extent everybody

might subscribe to that there might be aspects of cultural identity,

gentle mutilations, which in this society we might not wish to

sustain. Were you surprised to see a regional immigration policy being

floated? That was the most surprising aspect. Not least because

you might say why should Stormont have an immigration policy, because

immigration in the UK is not a devolved matter. Why do we have this

reference to an immigration policy? In that chapter it talks about that

at times our regional interests will not coincide with those of Britain.

Obviously that braces questions as to what could be a regional

immigration policy and how to what could be a regional

it might be to have one, given, are we going to have separate order

controls for Northern Ireland? we going to have separate order

more limited local relation to legal aid to migrants,

perhaps a slightly more liberal approach than the rest of the UK. If

it is limited to that maybe not so contentious but if it starts a

debate about something bigger that could have political kickback. As we

understand it could have political kickback. As we

have both signed up to the draft document. It is possible, is it,

that the DUP could be criticised by elements within the TUV and UKIP for

being even seen to encourage discussion about the regional

immigration policy? It is surprising that they seem fairly relaxed about

this aspect of the document. They might say that it is just out there

as a consultation document, but to some extent you could say, we have

just had an election, many people have just voted for UKIP, who have

tightening immigration controls as a big selling point. When they look at

that particular chapter it might give them a stick to beat the DUP

with over immigration. One source I talked to said that they may be

managing expect Haitians, because perhaps some of those who have been

waiting for this may not feel it is as robust as it might be. --

managing expectations. Maybe within the world of those who are

monitoring racism, they may have specific differences about the

implementation of the strategy, talk of an equality panel, talk of ?1

million fund, and it is not clear whether that is up and running.

There may be debate about this. In terms of the wider political

sphere, the immigration sector is probably the one that will spark the

most exchanges on the Unionist side. This will shortly go out to public

consultation. What kind of reaction do you think we will get when it

finds its way into the public domain? Apart from being

underwhelmed, I think most of the lobbyists already have a sense of

what is in it. Maybe it is another illustration of things that should

not take too long taking an awful long time to get out of the office

of the first Minister. Let's hear the thoughts of tonight's

commentators on a busy programme. Alex Kane

and Paul McFadden are with me. You managed to tear yourselves away

from the football, then? He did! What is the score? 2-2.

2-1. We will not all you any more on that.

This police statement to The View tonight on the flying of flags on

the Ormeau Road in south Belfast - how significant a development is it?

I think it is certainly significant. I do have some sympathy

with the police because it is difficult to police, and it will be

interesting to see how they do that. The pictures we saw earlier on

of flags, I think it is not on, in this day and age. I can see why the

police would take the view that it would heighten tensions. There is a

difference between flying and flaunting, and we need to strike the

balance. Alex, the differences between Sinn Fein and DUP were quite

large in that exchange. Absolutely. It is turf war. I agree with the

police at the suggestion seems to be that you cannot fly certain flags in

mixed areas that are they saying that it is OK if the majority in one

area once a particular flag? Where do you draw the line? Why now? Why

two days after the parties announced there would be talks on flags does

he come in and say, we have changed our policy? Will Sinn Fein exploit

this in other areas? They may well do. Gregory talked about the

decision. He called the decision extraordinary. It may have been

extraordinary but it was a democratic decision. It is important

to bear that in mind. Almost seems as though that may be Gregory and

those who are erecting flags are trying to achieve something, trying

to force a change with Belfast City Council. I do not think that will

happen. I just worry that if both sides are going to say this type of

flag is acceptable here, not acceptable here, this is not going

to go away. Even the Alliance party, he had a slightly different angle.

Three parties do not agree on anything. I was asking whether Sinn

Fein would exploit it but Republicans may ask whether

loyalists may do so? It is a dangerous game at a sensitive time.

It is a recipe for disaster, possibly looming. At the end of the

day, the police will be dealing with the consequences of all this. I do

not know how they deal with this because they will not drop the lamp

posts to deal with the flags. I think people will deliberately stand

at lamp posts, almost taunting the police.

The first look at the draft Race Equality Strategy - any surprises?

Nothing surprises me at all. Mark used the words underwhelming. I am

underwhelmed by it. The fundamental question... A quality is well and

good I want to know whether this document will do anything that will

make me feel safer and reduce the tax members of my community. Alex,

what do you think about the support from the DUP for a discussion on

regional immigration policy? Will there be others in the Unionist

family who will exploit that? No, it will not go anywhere. It is the

language they use. When they say racial equality, they cannot even

agree to bring Republicans in. 3-1 in the football. Have you got Brazil

in the office sweepstake? I am not playing. We will leave it there.

That is it from us for now, join me for Sunday Politics at 11:35am on

BBC One. the officials and the fans get into

the groove in Brazil for the World