05/06/2014 The View

Tonight, with the Police Ombudsman set to take legal action against the

Chief Constable, a former ombudsman tells us she has serious concerns

over the breakdown in relations between her successor and the PSNI.

Parades are back on the agenda. We hear from the Orange order and Sinn

Fein. Also, as the SDLP picks up the pieces after one of its worst ever

elections, we hear questions raised in the party about the wider. They

lost seats and vaults, so what should happen next four Alasdair

McDonnell and the SDLP? And we have more discussion in commentators'

First a very public breakdown in relations between the Police

Ombudsman and the Chief Constable. Matt Baggott's refusal to hand out

material relating to investigations of 60 murders. Michael Maguire

claims he is breaking the law by not cooperating. At this afternoon's

meeting, the Deputy Chief Constable Alastair Finlay defended the actions

of the PSNI. It is about our responsibilities in terms of

information we hold and our obligation to ensure we are

discharging those in accordance with human rights law and data protection

to ensure there is a lawful purpose. We are asking the Police Ombudsman

to explain the details of the powers they are operating under and the

necessity and the requirement for the information. We do not want to

cherry pick and obstruct certain parts. We want to make sure we don't

act without powers. There is a way to do this and both organisations

have left the door open to do that and I hope we can move is an

significantly. Alastair Finlay there. Jeffrey Donaldson, this is

difficult for the DUP, isn't it? You have heard what he said that he

doesn't think the police are refusing to hand it over. Some of

this information is highly sensitive and involves the details of

individuals who may have been informers. In the past, when the

identity of informers has become known, they have in place at risk

and in some cases murdered. The police have laws and human rights

requirements they must meet and it is important they get this right. At

the same time, we want an agreement between the ombudsman and the police

on how this is handled and we want to see progress. It is a challenge

for your party because you have supported the work of Special Branch

in the past but one of the murders under the spotlight is the murder of

an RUC officer and another. I have been involved for several years. We

are not shying away from these issues at all. It puts everyone in a

are not shying away from these difficult position, not just the

DUP. We must get to the bottom of difficult position, not just the

this and also recognise that the police cannot play

this and also recognise that the the ombudsman is looking for. There

are protocols and memorandums. It is very curious that the Police

Ombudsman has now been in existence for 14 years. When I first became

the Police for 14 years. When I first became

suggested I should not look at Special Branch but we overcame that

and I always have Special Branch but we overcame that

information of all kinds. We did a Special Branch but we overcame that

paramilitaries. There was no compromise. The reality is the Chief

Constable is under a duty to pass the information over.

responsibility is then on the Police Ombudsman to take such measures that

are necessary to protect the life of any informant. The Police Ombudsman

will be acutely aware of any of those responsibilities. It is

absolutely explicit that the those responsibilities. It is

have a duty to hand over information. Parliament has made it

will clear. When it is said that information. Parliament has made it

that they cannot play information. Parliament has made it

Nobody intends to do that. information. Parliament has made it

Police Ombudsman has been handling information. Parliament has made it

years. There have been no leak is and no threats or anything. The

situation with Denis Donaldson is one of their cases in which the

police are refusing to hand information to the police on this --

Police Ombudsman. The law says he information to the police on this --

under an obligation. He says they must look at this and work through

it. The PSNI has said it has dealt with each case individually. The

Police Ombudsman has 100 outstanding requests whether police are refusing

to give information. That does not sound like handing over information

as required by law. She knows what she's talking about, she is a former

Police Ombudsman. She says there is no room for doubt or manoeuvre. The

police constable is required to handle this information over. The

police act 1998 says one thing but there is something else called

national security and that must be a consideration. Indeed it has been in

the past. You don't think that the Police Ombudsman can be adjusted

with this information? That's not what I said. But that is why there

might be a delay in the police responding. They have obligations

they must meet under the human rights act and data protection and

under national security. There are protocols in place to deal with

this. I don't think it is simply a case of the police refusing to hand

this over. We are hopeful this can be resolved. It is not just a

question of what happened in the past. We must bear in mind that out

there at the moment there are informers inside organisations that

are actively engaging in terrorist activity in Northern Ireland. If

they are watching to see how all of this is handled, it has potential

consequences not just for the past but for the future. Michael Maguire

has the same security clearance as senior members of the PSNI. That is

not the issue. The Police Ombudsman has the same legal responsibility to

conduct criminal investigations as the police. The Police Ombudsman

does have responsibilities regarding national security but the fact

remains they have a right to that information to enable them to

conduct investigations. Without information investigations cannot be

completed. One would wonder that by refusing to provide information on

the police are obstructing these very sensitive and important

investigations. I can't understand how this has happened. Do you

believe that this could be about protecting police officers and their

actions in the past? I do not know. Does it worry you that it might be

an issue? The conclusion that could be drawn by those who wish to go

there could be that this is a cover-up. But I do not know why the

Chief Constable is doing this. I don't understand why he is not doing

what has been done in the past. This is not a new matter. These matters

have been debated at length and discussed at length. There are

officers, retired officers, who would prefer this material doesn't

come out. Could it be a cover-up? I do not know because I don't know

specifics. It is possibly ineptitude as much as anything.

specifics. It is possibly ineptitude as much There are 16 murders. --

60. The volume is huge. I think we should ask the Chief Constable why

are you doing this? If the Police Ombudsman can't get information then

it can't carry out its function. It is information which is required and

can statutorily demand of the Chief Constable. These are not cases which

only date back to the RUC. We know that one of the case regards the

murder of PSNI member Peadar Heffron. Well, let's talk about

Colleen McMurray's husband, who was married to a police officer. Some of

the victims are police officers. If that is one possible explanation

then that is a shocking conclusion. Have you never countenance to that

is a possibility? You cannot rule anything out but let me be

absolutely clear there is no evidence to suggest wrongdoing on

the part of police officers. Until he gets information, he cannot form

a view. That is why he wants the information. Well, the Police

Ombudsman has had the Colleen McMurray Case for ten years and we

had an initial report rejected by the families because we don't feel

it went far enough in looking at these issues. I don't think the

question is police trying to protect police officers, I think it is about

national security and the modus operandi of police and

counterterrorism. Michael Maguire says that you can't have a situation

where those under investigation determined that information given to

those undertaking of the investigating. That is a key

principle of justice. I am not disagreeing with it. I am saying

that I don't think the reason for this delay is because the police are

refusing to hand information over, I am saying that there are obligations

they must meet, legal obligations, before they can determine how to

deal with this. This is not new, we have had national security, data

protection, Freedom of information, police legislation. For some reason,

in the past month, police have provided information. They have a

legal duty to do so. There is no difference between the powers of the

two and from Dominic -- the two institutions. It is two weeks since

the European Council elections and for many SDLP activists it has been

difficult, as they came to terms with some of their worst

difficult, as they came to terms results. They had hoped to wind 80

council seats but got 66 seats and they got their worst result in

Europe. We have been talking to some they got their worst result in

people in the party and we have heard that questions have been asked

about the leadership. We are very pleased with the result, it is not

as good as we would have liked, however. With the election is over,

the STL and are keen to promote a tale of two cities. -- SDLP. Here,

one of their councillors has become Mayor and in Belfast, Nichola Mallon

has become first citizen. They say this illustrates they have a strong

electoral future and it shows they believe in the promotion of women.

Away from the smiles, there believe in the promotion of women.

activist, there are concerns about losing votes, losing seats and

future elections. Once the city and the Parliamentary seat of foil was a

political fortress held by John Hume, but after last month's local

elections, the battle ground for nationalism has changed. On the

basis of the council poll for nationalism has changed. On the

first time in Londonderry, Sinn Fein got more votes than than the SDLP.

They may have out polled the SDLP in terms of Londonderry city alone, in

terms of the amalgamated council due to start next year, but it would

appear on the face of it, it is early yet, but it probably suggest

that there is a change in nationalist politics. This was

Alasdair McDonnell's first problem is why test as party leader. Back in

November, he set self target saying he would like 80 seats and would

regard fewer than 70 as a loss. The party ended up with 66 seats. One of

the electoral casualties was Brenda Stevenson, the niece of John Hume

she stood for one council but fail to get it. She will serve as Mayor

for the old council -- failed. Alasdair McDonnell set this target

and he said it would be a loss if that was under 70 and you are stop

yes, we are moving forward, we have an election next year. We are trying

to build the party and move forward. Is Alex met the right leader? He

is. Clare Hanna is one of a growing number of women councillors. She

thinks the SDLP must leave the executive in order to stand out --

Executive. Seven years on, no racial equality, and SDLP has not

successfully put forward a coherent alternative. Is that the fault of

the leader? There is a problem with our message. I think we need to fix

the message. Is it just the message? I am not going to get into

who should not be at the top of the party. We all need to work together.

Changing the perceptions of the party is not new. Last year on this

programme, we revealed that confidential report which concluded

that the party was resting on its laurels, was too complacent and too

stuck in the past, but one MLA suggested that party fortunes were

about to improve. Alex outward will wind that election and it is time we

had someone in Europe -- Alex Attwood. However, he failed to

become an MEP and that resulted in the worst ever European election

result for the SDLP. Over the last few days, I have had conversations

with the key figures in the party and we have discussed the problems.

No one was prepared to comment publicly, although one candidate to

me that he thought the party's days were numbered. What became clear in

all of these conversations was that there was one being, Alasdair

McDonnell's leadership. There is no disguising the fact that it was not

a good election for the SDLP. Many other personalities have lost their

leadership because of performances like that, so what happens in turn

late is probably a good question, are there are behind-the-scenes that

Alasdair McDonnell may be put in the position where he is asked to vacate

the leadership? Is there an mood in the party for a leadership

challenge? There is a mood to keep us going forward. There are no

discussions of that nature. With this be a distraction? I am not

focused on it. To some observers, the changes in nationalist politics

are now irreversible. You could say that you are looking at a slow

decline. Some people have said that in the past will stop does the party

have a role to play? I think it does. The next 12 months are

crucial, so far Alasdair McDonnell's critics are not prepared

to be named. Some observers suggest that the party knew what kind of

leader he was when they are elected him. What you ask for is what you

get, he is a formidable organiser and he has steadied the ship. Next

May, voters will get another opportunity to decide. The Parades

Commission has ruled against Orangemen completing their march

past Ardoyne in north Belfast. Loyalists have camped out in protest

since the route was first blocked last year. Policing the dispute has

cost ?9 million. Some loyalist had hoped that recent talks would lead

to them getting the go-ahead for apparatus Saturday but this was not

the case. With the deadlock set to continue, what is the plan for what

could be another difficult marching season? Joining me now is Mervyn

Gibson and Alex Maskey. Thank you for joining us. Talks were going on

right up until the weekend to try and break this impasse and we were

hearing that Loyalists were expressing some optimism that they

would get the march, or what went wrong? There was optimism that there

would be an opportunity for a new start with parading. Try and clear

the decks before July 12 stop that sadly was not the case. Was it

wishful thinking? I think the orders did all that they were asked to do.

They went into talks, face-to-face talks, they went in with an attitude

to try and resolve the issue, but they faced in tolerance, people did

not want the parade going back up that road and sadly, the Parades

Commission has allowed that. I am sure you will say it is not as

simple as that, but there were talks, Loyalists did go in and talk

to people that previously they were uncomfortable about talking to, what

was the purpose of that process then? Is important that people come

together and have dialogue to try and resolve the problem. Those

issues have been resolved before. We can cite other places, like Derry,

weather has been dialogue -- where that has been genuine. I am not a

requiem involved in those talks. What is clear -- directly involved.

requiem involved in those talks. This is about those who want the

march having respect for the communities. They need to talk to

those people. We have had a new Parades Commission,

those people. We have had a new week we have had a toxic environment

created by people like week we have had a toxic environment

there have been people week we have had a toxic environment

have been protesting every week, some very senior members of the

Orange Order some very senior members of the

way to encourage the community. You are saying that Mervyn Gibson is

contributing to a toxic situation? We have met and talked about this, I

do believe that senior figures including Mervyn Gibson need to be

do believe that senior figures the one hand, you cannot say you

respect the community and then join our rally every week, using

offensive language. How do you respond to that? You want to create

an environment where you get your parade, Alex Maskey says you are

doing the reverse of that, because you still have not got it stop there

have been peaceful protest, there have been done attacks and paint

bomb attacks, but they have come from Ardoyne. We have had a peaceful

protest and were has got us, it has got us nowhere. I am not advocating

violence, but the community say that violence pays.

violence, but the community say that rewarded by banning the parade. It

is not about the parade, it is about keeping people off the main road

because of what they stand for. That is absolutely what I believe. It is

not about banning this parade, it is the same parade from last year. The

Parades Commission upheld the determination they made last year.

This was an attempt to have another parade and when we talk about what

has been happening on the ground, the reality is, they keep making

this point, if you keep having a dialogue, we are fortunate the

dialogue is going on despite the toxic environment. There is still a

dialogue going on. The point I am making, Mervyn Gibson cannot ignore

the fact that there have been up to 200 breaches of the law in and

around the area of the camp protest. That is a figure, if you

ask the PSNI, they will give you that figure. There is a large number

of breaches of the law which has been happening there by people like

Mervyn Gibson. How do you respond to that? 200 breaches... It has been

peaceful. Breaches of the law could involve a band playing. We are not

talking about violence. We have kept it peaceful. We are talking about

intolerance. We are only asking for six minutes of tolerance. I was in

Londonderry and we walked up with six policemen, Republicans there are

tolerated the parade. It is as simple as that. Is the camp at

Twaddell Avenue not upping the ante which makes it more difficult for

Republicans to concede the ground you want them to concede? It is the

civil rights camp. We have not called for a big numbers. We are not

talking about thousands of people. You have heard his explanation, you

have heard him say that six minutes would sort this out. This was an

application for a parade that would take place early on a Saturday

morning, it would have dealt with the issue and we would not be

sitting here talking about it tonight. Would that not have been

worthwhile? The people do not have respect, if they still do not have

respect, we will still be sitting here in 100 years. We have had

Orange marches banned 100 years ago the close there was inflammatory

speech and offences behaviour. There is nobody in the parade in Derry

outside the chapel which people in your parade insist on. It is the

core disrespect of a community when you cannot even pass the chapel

bothered going to the toilet at the gates. How do you think we are going

to get over the problem? He is talking about an isolated incident

which we dealt with. Tell me how you're going to sort it out. We have

sorted out the problems with the bands, the flags, the music, the

crowds. The problem is intolerance. A lot of people will hope that it is

resolved sooner rather than later. Let's hear what our commentators

make of what we've been discussing. Join me at Alex Kane and pull

McFadden. Pull McFadden. Let's talk about the conflict between the Chief

Constable and the Police Ombudsman. I have some sympathy with Nuala

O'Loan's point of view. If the Police Ombudsman is cleared at the

highest levels of security, which he is, then national security is not an

issue because you can make the call himself and decide whether the

information is or isn't. But this situation looks like secrecy. It is

a mixed message. I think the PSNI are making it difficult for

themselves. These are requests for information in serious cases by the

Police Ombudsman. It is not a Freedom of information request or

making the information known to members of the public or even the

Policing Board for --. Nuala O'Loan was adamant that the Police

Ombudsman has the law on his side. May be a new Chief Constable will

change the landscape. Well he will be asked the same question. But it

looks like the Chief Constable is deliberately withholding

information. There was no point having a Police Ombudsman if you do

not trust him. To see the police reacting in such a way to an

investigation by the police at ombudsman, it should check

confidence. It will be on the agenda until it is resolved. What about

parades, a speedy and peaceful resolution. It has been ten months

but do you think something can be done before the 12th parade? No. The

Parades Commission exists because the parties couldn't come up with

anything else. This is Street politics. The parties of the

executive cannot agree a shared future. How can they expect anyone

at street level to do so then? It is red in tooth and claw. With respect

to the Reverend Gibson, I think the camp is a

to the Reverend Gibson, I think the Order. He says it is a civil rights

camp. Well, it has had 200 reaches of the law associated with it. If

camp. Well, it has had 200 reaches had something similar leading up to

the agreement I don't think we would have had an agreement at all. I

won't ask you about STL P. You are from Derry, is Mark Durkan's

Westminster seat under threat? I think the SDLP can't afford to be

complacent. Is Alasdair McDonnell's leadership in question? Well,

opposition is the place for them. The pause was significant. Thank you

both very much indeed. We never get tired of politics here at The View

but it looked like the Stormont was taking its toll today.

That's it from us all here on The View for this week.