18/02/2016 The View


18/02/2016

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Swingeing job cuts at Bombardier, the latest twist in the ongoing saga

:00:00.:00:07.

over MLAs' expenses and both sides in the debate over BREXIT -

:00:08.:00:10.

the head of the agency with responsibility for growing

:00:11.:00:37.

the economy here, what more can be done to protect manufacturing jobs.

:00:38.:00:41.

As the war of words over expenses continues,

:00:42.:00:43.

will reforming the system make any difference?

:00:44.:00:46.

The Assembly commission it should be wind-up immediately as a useless

:00:47.:00:59.

body which has not performed any function whatsoever or being useful

:01:00.:01:02.

for the people in this part of the world.

:01:03.:01:02.

as the negotiations on a new deal continue, we'll hear the latest live

:01:03.:01:07.

from Brussels and ask a prominent Europhile

:01:08.:01:09.

and Eurosceptic what they think of David Cameron's plans.

:01:10.:01:11.

And in Commentators' Corner this week,

:01:12.:01:12.

PR consulant Sheila Davidson joins political blogger Chris Donnelly.

:01:13.:01:21.

The headlines were stark in the papers this morning,

:01:22.:01:23.

from 'Bombardier bombshell' to 'Devastation as a thousand jobs

:01:24.:01:26.

The firm's announcement on Tuesday that it's to shed a fifth

:01:27.:01:32.

of its workforce follows similar cuts at Mischel-inn and JTI

:01:33.:01:35.

So, as the impact of the latest round of job losses sinks in,

:01:36.:01:43.

is there a real threat to the future of the manufacturing sector here,

:01:44.:01:46.

and can anything more be done to protect it?

:01:47.:01:48.

Joining me now is the Chief Executive of Invest NI,

:01:49.:01:51.

After yesterday's announcement of 1,000 job losses,

:01:52.:01:54.

today Bombardier suspended its apprentice scheme as part

:01:55.:01:57.

What does that say about its commitment to new talent,

:01:58.:02:02.

which is the lifeblood of any business?

:02:03.:02:10.

I think you need to go back and look at the decisions that Bombardier

:02:11.:02:17.

have taken over the last 48 hours. At its heart is a reef formation of

:02:18.:02:23.

that organisation, a global organisation, but a rebasing of that

:02:24.:02:28.

organisation in Belfast to address competitiveness and cost and it is

:02:29.:02:31.

clearly understandable that in order to address those cost pressures that

:02:32.:02:36.

they would address the new intake of employees at the same time as they

:02:37.:02:40.

would deal with the painful situation for the existing employees

:02:41.:02:44.

that are going to find themselves out of work. It doesn't look like

:02:45.:02:48.

much of a commitment to the future. They had committed to the future of

:02:49.:02:52.

the existing apprenticeships they already had but the company is in a

:02:53.:02:56.

difficult position and I don't think anyone would underestimate it, a $5

:02:57.:03:01.

billion loss at a group level and some very stark decisions being

:03:02.:03:05.

taken in terms of the operation here in Belfast but I would repeat what

:03:06.:03:10.

the chief executive said, which is that Belfast is at the heart of the

:03:11.:03:13.

Bombardier operation and we must take some comfort for the future

:03:14.:03:17.

from that. That might be reassuring on one level, but there is always

:03:18.:03:20.

the danger that we get caught somewhere in the middle, that we are

:03:21.:03:26.

squeezed between political imperatives in Canada, with the

:03:27.:03:30.

Canadian taxpayer bailing the company out, and the low-cost

:03:31.:03:33.

manufacturing plants the company has in places like Morocco and Mexico.

:03:34.:03:37.

And that is exactly why Bombardier had been making the move is that

:03:38.:03:41.

they have, to move out of the lover Ali manufacturing into higher value

:03:42.:03:47.

and is why they have invested and that is exactly what those

:03:48.:03:51.

investment programmes are there to do, to invest in high-value

:03:52.:03:56.

manufacturing, which is composite manufacturing. That is why the money

:03:57.:04:01.

has been put in and we have invested ?135 million of taxpayer's money to

:04:02.:04:06.

position Bombardier in Belfast for the future of manufacturing. So we

:04:07.:04:09.

had Jonathan Bell saying this morning that he is convinced that

:04:10.:04:13.

Bombardier is you to stay. Bombardier is committed to Northern

:04:14.:04:17.

Ireland. The Belfast Buncombe he says, is secure, but there is no

:04:18.:04:21.

absolute obligation on Bombardier to stay here indefinitely. Do you

:04:22.:04:25.

accept that? There is no written down commercial agreement for them

:04:26.:04:29.

to stay, but you need to look a bit deeper to understand the stickiness

:04:30.:04:32.

of the investments that were made in Belfast. The sea -series win which

:04:33.:04:38.

is at the heart of the investment we have made worse patented and made

:04:39.:04:45.

with universities here in Northern Ireland. The ?525 million investment

:04:46.:04:52.

in one of the biggest clean rooms in Europe is here in Belfast -- the

:04:53.:05:00.

set. The cost of moving this operation is one of the things that

:05:01.:05:03.

gives us some comfort for the future that Belfast is that the heart of

:05:04.:05:07.

the Bombardier operation. That is great if the C-series is a success,

:05:08.:05:11.

but things are not looking good for it at the moment. We take some

:05:12.:05:14.

comfort from the latest orders that have come in from Air Canada, but

:05:15.:05:19.

this is what businesses do, they make investments from the future. We

:05:20.:05:22.

would be in a different situation today we have not made the

:05:23.:05:26.

investment on the C-series facility in Belfast, because we would be

:05:27.:05:29.

looking at would be the continual eating away of the low value

:05:30.:05:34.

manufacturing, where as now we have an opportunity for the future with

:05:35.:05:38.

that high-value investment. That is fine so long as Bombardier does not

:05:39.:05:42.

find ways to upscale in places like Morocco and Mexico and move for a

:05:43.:05:46.

better high-value option the production of the C-series from

:05:47.:05:52.

Belfast to places like that. That will be a continual process. What is

:05:53.:05:57.

low value manufacturing today will be higher value manufacturing

:05:58.:06:00.

tomorrow, and that is a constant race for operations here in Northern

:06:01.:06:04.

Ireland and across the UK and in the developed countries to stay ahead of

:06:05.:06:09.

that game, to keep leading age manufacturing and development, to

:06:10.:06:12.

make sure that they keep moving up the value chain. So here is the

:06:13.:06:14.

question I think people will be interested in. Without any written

:06:15.:06:17.

guarantee that Bombardier is here for the long term, you indefinitely,

:06:18.:06:23.

has it been good value for money for the public purse to be pumping tens

:06:24.:06:28.

of millions of pounds into a company like Bombardier? I think you can

:06:29.:06:31.

only answer that question in the future. We are at the crucial point

:06:32.:06:36.

for the C-series. They committed to having 300 orders that the initial

:06:37.:06:41.

point. The aircraft has been certified. Even their harshest

:06:42.:06:45.

competitors would agree that the aircraft is world leading in terms

:06:46.:06:48.

of fuel efficiency and noise reduction and customer experience

:06:49.:06:52.

inside the cabin. It is a world-class aircraft and we are

:06:53.:06:55.

proud that it has been developed you in Belfast, but you need to remember

:06:56.:06:58.

that this is the first aircraft that has been developed in the past 25

:06:59.:07:04.

years in the single line and that is a massive challenge bearing in mind

:07:05.:07:07.

competitors, so we need to look to the future. A big up sign is that we

:07:08.:07:14.

have those orders from Air Canada and we have some other companies on

:07:15.:07:19.

the back of that Singapore airshow today talking more positively about

:07:20.:07:22.

the C-series and where it might fit in their fleets in the future. So

:07:23.:07:26.

you are committed to continuing to back Bombardier in the future, but

:07:27.:07:30.

do you accept and are upfront about the fact that it is a gamble? Do you

:07:31.:07:37.

really clearly need to understand where Government fits in the funding

:07:38.:07:40.

cycle. I know there are many people who would share the underlying

:07:41.:07:45.

comments that we should back winners and we should only be funding things

:07:46.:07:50.

that are certain. I am just asking for clarity that it is a gamble.

:07:51.:07:55.

Well, it is not a gamble. It is a considered risk. We are in the game

:07:56.:07:59.

of funders of last resort. We should not be funding companies that could

:08:00.:08:01.

secure funding from equity companies or from the banks. That is not our

:08:02.:08:06.

game. We are not sure to displace banks. We are here to make things

:08:07.:08:08.

happen that without Government support they would not have been

:08:09.:08:12.

here. Well, it is a gamble in that you

:08:13.:08:28.

have no absolute guarantee of success. And as do many businesses

:08:29.:08:32.

when the invest for the future. No absolute guarantee of where they are

:08:33.:08:34.

going. We are a business development body. We are here to make things

:08:35.:08:37.

happen in Northern Ireland that otherwise wouldn't an involved and

:08:38.:08:39.

that is a fund of last resort is risk. We accept that risk. And does

:08:40.:08:42.

invest NI in your view currently happy to get it needs to do the job

:08:43.:08:45.

it is required to do? Clearly, as we sit here today, we have a wonderful

:08:46.:08:48.

record as the most successful development agency on these islands.

:08:49.:08:50.

Over the last four years, we have secured almost 40,000 jobs for

:08:51.:08:53.

Northern Ireland which mixes in first place in terms of the regions

:08:54.:08:57.

the United Kingdom and that is with the toolkit we have today.

:08:58.:09:00.

Obviously, we look to the future, now that the things are based on

:09:01.:09:06.

corporation tax and we add to that cost proposition which bits as any

:09:07.:09:12.

unique position in these islands in terms of a combination of those

:09:13.:09:14.

things so I looked very positively to the future in terms of adding

:09:15.:09:18.

that new jewel to our toolkit and finding new investment that

:09:19.:09:20.

otherwise we would not have been able to attract. -- tool. Soothing

:09:21.:09:29.

investment is increasing? In my view, it is. All we are looking for.

:09:30.:09:37.

The global investment market breaks into two centres, cost centres and

:09:38.:09:41.

profit centres. I am not choosing profit centres because I have a

:09:42.:09:45.

neighbour on the silencer is a better proposition than I am. We

:09:46.:09:49.

tease cost centres including high-value cost centres such as the

:09:50.:09:53.

legal and the professional services. I am now able to fish in a much

:09:54.:09:58.

wider pool. I have not lost the cost centre proposition but I add a cost

:09:59.:10:02.

centre one to it so we should be able to do more with that. So you

:10:03.:10:06.

are very positive tonight and I note that the minister responsible for

:10:07.:10:10.

enterprise trade and investment, Jonathan Bell, was very positive

:10:11.:10:14.

this morning and said that manufacturing in Northern Ireland is

:10:15.:10:17.

in a better place than it has been perhaps in recent years and it has

:10:18.:10:20.

delivered jobs, but can you understand why people watching this

:10:21.:10:24.

seed is in the context of 3000 jobs being lost in the very recent past

:10:25.:10:29.

in east Belfast and in Ballymena and the wonder how you do square that

:10:30.:10:34.

circle. And I share his optimism both looking backwards and forwards,

:10:35.:10:39.

but nevertheless it is very disappointing and I can understand

:10:40.:10:45.

because I have family members and friends in some of those sites, both

:10:46.:10:52.

in Bombardier and in JTI Gallahers and I know the pain this will cause

:10:53.:10:58.

to individuals. If you look backwards, out of those 39,000 jobs,

:10:59.:11:02.

12,000 are in the manufacturing spear, the highest we have ever had.

:11:03.:11:07.

3600 of them in the last year alone. The majority of those have not yet

:11:08.:11:10.

been created, so while it is difficult and disappointing for

:11:11.:11:13.

those people, we are coming from the position that we have never been in

:11:14.:11:17.

before of having an unprecedented high order book, if you want to put

:11:18.:11:20.

those words around it flowing into the future. And very quickly, this

:11:21.:11:27.

is all set against the context of the possibility of a British exit

:11:28.:11:31.

from the European Union. Would that not be potentially catastrophic by

:11:32.:11:34.

the manufacturing sector in Northern Ireland, because some people think

:11:35.:11:38.

that. I think the things need to be clarified. I cannot answer at the

:11:39.:11:42.

moment. First of all, 60% of our exports go to European markets, the

:11:43.:11:47.

majority into the Republic of Ireland. Companies will not make

:11:48.:11:51.

decisions based on emotion. There will be an emotional element to it.

:11:52.:11:55.

Companies make decisions on the clarity of the business case for the

:11:56.:11:58.

future. They will want to know what those export markets are like.

:11:59.:12:04.

Warren investment is pitched clearly about accessing the European market.

:12:05.:12:09.

-- foreign investment. What will those pitches look like in future?

:12:10.:12:13.

We need clarity on that. Based on the funding that we have and the

:12:14.:12:18.

vast majority of the funding is European funds. People say that we

:12:19.:12:21.

put in more than we get out and that is fine but will we get the same

:12:22.:12:26.

distribution? We get more than our fair share because of our past at

:12:27.:12:29.

the moment and the challenges that we face. Will we get that same

:12:30.:12:33.

distribution in the future? If someone can give is clarity around

:12:34.:12:36.

those three things in business will be in a much better position to make

:12:37.:12:40.

a decision. Very interesting to hear your thoughts and we will develop

:12:41.:12:43.

was further with our other guests later. The political week at

:12:44.:12:49.

Stormont has been developed by one story.

:12:50.:12:51.

The stand-off between the Assembly Commission

:12:52.:12:53.

and The Independent Financial Review Panel revolves around claims that

:12:54.:12:55.

expenses rules were not properly enforced.

:12:56.:12:57.

This very public row has provoked a war of words between the body that

:12:58.:13:00.

sets the regulations and the organisation

:13:01.:13:01.

It's resulted in the Assembly Commission asking the Westminster

:13:02.:13:05.

expenses body, IPSA, to take a look at how Stormont

:13:06.:13:07.

Here's our Political Correspondent, Stephen Walker.

:13:08.:13:16.

It is an illustration of how disconnected so many people at

:13:17.:13:23.

Stormont appear to have become. Where public money is concerned, to

:13:24.:13:27.

allay the concerns that the public may have, let's look at how we can

:13:28.:13:33.

do things better. It is an extraordinary situation when you

:13:34.:13:35.

have the people who set the rules and the people who enforce those

:13:36.:13:39.

rules really at war with each other and very publicly. Rather like

:13:40.:13:45.

comedy, timing is everything in politics, and this row is the last

:13:46.:13:52.

thing that members mac -- members Max need. Politicians would rather

:13:53.:14:01.

answer questions about the health service, the economy and education,

:14:02.:14:05.

but instead the talk shows are discussing alliances and expenses.

:14:06.:14:13.

The origins of this row lie in a BBC Spotlight podcast in November 20 14.

:14:14.:14:17.

One of the programmes reported that Sinn Fein members claimed around

:14:18.:14:25.

?700,000 expenses to pay research services Ireland over a 10-year

:14:26.:14:31.

period. Last year, after a question from Jim Allison, attention switched

:14:32.:14:34.

to the Assembly commission, which is made up of the Stormont's largest

:14:35.:14:38.

parties and is responsible for enforcing the expenses rules.

:14:39.:14:53.

But on Sunday Politics and member of The Independent panel which sets the

:14:54.:15:02.

rules to a different course and said ?150,000 should not have been paid.

:15:03.:15:07.

That is contrary to the determination. And the Commission,

:15:08.:15:12.

if it thinks this is oche, is quite wrong. That's true a sharp response

:15:13.:15:18.

from the Assembly. What is of significant concern to me and regret

:15:19.:15:24.

is that the chief executive was working directly with the panel on

:15:25.:15:30.

these issues and I am extremely disappointed at the publicity that

:15:31.:15:35.

has been generated. Then a leaked report to the northern Short

:15:36.:15:38.

revealed that the Westminster expenses watchdog The Independent

:15:39.:15:43.

Parliamentary Standards Authority had concerns about the way the storm

:15:44.:15:48.

and expenses scheme was operated. Ipsa was told that in one or two

:15:49.:15:55.

cases MLAs having had a claim refused a senior member of Assembly

:15:56.:15:56.

staff. Ipsa concluded: us that we should move to the type

:15:57.:17:13.

of model that runs at We are very happy to operate under a

:17:14.:17:22.

similar model to Westminster, as has been suggested to us many times. I

:17:23.:17:27.

think it would be a clear system and much more straightforward if we had

:17:28.:17:30.

the one body that makes determinations rather than divided

:17:31.:17:36.

which is currently the case here. Time appears to be something that

:17:37.:17:41.

the Assembly has not got. It has to come to a conclusion within a matter

:17:42.:17:44.

of months because the independent financial review panel Hadi remit

:17:45.:17:47.

which only lasted for five years and that is coming to an end very soon.

:17:48.:17:51.

The question is whether the members will be able to push this back until

:17:52.:17:55.

after the election. The Assembly commission has asked the Westminster

:17:56.:18:01.

commission to review the Stormont expenses system. It also wants to

:18:02.:18:04.

strengthen the effectiveness of the local independent financial review

:18:05.:18:05.

panel. Stephen Walker there

:18:06.:18:13.

with the background to a remarkable story - and at this point

:18:14.:18:15.

I had hoped to be talking to Stormont's Speaker and the chair

:18:16.:18:18.

of the Assembly Commission, He agreed several weeks ago

:18:19.:18:20.

to join me in the studio tonight - but when this latest expenses row

:18:21.:18:24.

erupted he pulled out We'd also hoped to talk

:18:25.:18:27.

to the chief executive of Ipsa, the Parliamentary expenses watchdog

:18:28.:18:30.

that's now reviewing the Assembly's procedures, but this afternoon that

:18:31.:18:32.

organisation said it wouldn't now be appropriate to appear

:18:33.:18:35.

on the programme. However, tonight there has been

:18:36.:18:36.

another twist in the story - and Chris Page is here

:18:37.:18:39.

to talk us through it. A strongly worded statement has been

:18:40.:18:49.

issued to the BBC. What does it say. The Independent

:18:50.:18:55.

financial review panel are taking a clear and firm line in that they say

:18:56.:19:00.

they are in the right and they will stick to their position. When it

:19:01.:19:06.

comes to the ?150,000 paid in 2012 the panel say it remains The View

:19:07.:19:10.

these expenses should not have been claimed or paid. The panel also deal

:19:11.:19:15.

with the suggestion that they made a mistake in a ruling in March 2012

:19:16.:19:19.

and then tries to amend it later that year in December. They say that

:19:20.:19:24.

is incorrect to suggest they made a mistake. They say they are clear

:19:25.:19:30.

that the March 2012 determination allows MLAs to employ staff for

:19:31.:19:35.

research. They say that did not allowed contract providers. It is a

:19:36.:19:42.

restatement of the panels position. It deals in factual matters that you

:19:43.:19:46.

get the impression that the panel feel strongly about this.

:19:47.:19:51.

This has been going on in public for almost one week. All side backing

:19:52.:19:55.

down. The opposite. That is right. There

:19:56.:20:03.

is no meeting of minds. There are two public bodies who see things

:20:04.:20:08.

completely differently. That panel and the Assembly Commission will

:20:09.:20:12.

meet next week. There is no sign that this public disagreement is to

:20:13.:20:17.

being resolved. More to come on that one.

:20:18.:20:22.

By tomorrow afternoon the campaign over whether or not the UK should

:20:23.:20:25.

remain in the EU could be under way, Cabinet members may well have

:20:26.:20:28.

resigned, the battle lines will have been drawn.

:20:29.:20:30.

In a moment the arguments for and against in the studio,

:20:31.:20:32.

but first let's get the latest from the negotiations in Brussels.

:20:33.:20:35.

RTE's Europe Editor, Tony Connelly is in our studio.

:20:36.:20:39.

Where are we as we speak this evening?

:20:40.:20:49.

The heads of Government met at the outset of the beginning of the

:20:50.:20:56.

summit and all 28 made the presentations on the British issue.

:20:57.:21:00.

David Cameron made a staunch and passionate defence of his demands

:21:01.:21:04.

for key reforms which he can then sell to the British electorate. This

:21:05.:21:08.

session they moved into a dinner which was dominated by the refugee

:21:09.:21:14.

crisis. After that they have been getting into smaller bilateral

:21:15.:21:18.

meetings, smaller huddled groups of heads of Government and also the

:21:19.:21:26.

representatives of the heads of Government. They will beget in into

:21:27.:21:31.

the nitty-gritty. The problem is that David Cameron wants key reforms

:21:32.:21:40.

across for policy areas. As the meeting has gone on to day it is

:21:41.:21:45.

clear that across that spectrum of policy areas individual countries

:21:46.:21:48.

are getting more and more resentful, more and more twitchy about the

:21:49.:21:54.

things that they want, the things that they don't want. The Eastern

:21:55.:21:58.

European countries and the Central European countries have realised

:21:59.:22:01.

that they are facing a scenario where they feel that they are being

:22:02.:22:05.

asked to make the biggest sacrifices in terms of what David Cameron

:22:06.:22:09.

wants, and they are suddenly realising that they are going to

:22:10.:22:12.

look like losers out of this process and local back to their capitals and

:22:13.:22:16.

that they have been defeated. They will be digging their in and looking

:22:17.:22:21.

for scraps, looking for things that they can see that they have one,

:22:22.:22:27.

concessions on. And to give you a sense of the kind of detail, David

:22:28.:22:32.

Cameron wants to limit EU migration to the UK, he wants to restrict in

:22:33.:22:37.

work benefits that people get. He wants to restrict child benefit. See

:22:38.:22:43.

for example a Polish worker in the UK can send child benefit back to

:22:44.:22:48.

his children living in Poland. David Cameron wants to index those

:22:49.:22:53.

payments to the standard of living, the cost of living in Poland. The

:22:54.:22:59.

entire thing hinges on whether that will only affect newcomers to the UK

:23:00.:23:05.

after this deal is done or will it affects people who are already

:23:06.:23:09.

living and working in the UK. That is the kind of nitty-gritty

:23:10.:23:15.

scrapping that is going on and that will go on throughout the night and

:23:16.:23:18.

then the leaders will come back tomorrow morning at 11 o'clock to

:23:19.:23:22.

try to get the ball rolling again. If you had to call it in one

:23:23.:23:27.

sentence, it is impossible to be sure, what is your hunch? Everybody

:23:28.:23:35.

wants Britain to remain in the European Union and nobody wants to

:23:36.:23:39.

press the nuclear button that would push David Cameron out so he will

:23:40.:23:42.

get some kind of arguments tomorrow but whether it is the kind of

:23:43.:23:47.

jubilant, triumphant deal that he wants that he can sell to the

:23:48.:23:51.

British electorate, that is another thing. Thank you.

:23:52.:23:58.

And Claire Hanna from the SDLP and the TUV leader, Jim Allister,

:23:59.:24:01.

Jim Allister, one of those areas of renegotiation is about restricting

:24:02.:24:17.

benefits for EU citizens living in the UK. What do you think of the

:24:18.:24:21.

Irish Government position on Republic of Ireland citizens in the

:24:22.:24:26.

UK having a different arrangement should UK decide to stay in the EU?

:24:27.:24:31.

I do not think that would be appropriate. There is a need for the

:24:32.:24:41.

unanimity of an approach. All this Prime Minister is doing is tinkering

:24:42.:24:45.

around the edges. They use a goal he said he was going for a fundamental

:24:46.:24:49.

change of our relationship which would be in Kabul. He is going for

:24:50.:25:03.

something now which is very minimal. -- which would be irrevocable. What

:25:04.:25:13.

he is going for now would not liberate our courts from being

:25:14.:25:19.

subject to the European Court of Justice which will not liberate our

:25:20.:25:24.

trade. He is asking for virtually nothing and this getting virtually

:25:25.:25:28.

nothing. No doubt tomorrow he will claim some victory but I do not

:25:29.:25:31.

think anyone will be convinced about that. Claire Hanna, it was an issue

:25:32.:25:49.

raised by the Irish ambassador to the UK, and he made the point that

:25:50.:25:54.

the issue of Irish people living in the UK PDC EU by many years. As

:25:55.:25:59.

their merits and what he was talking about? Yes, and there is also merits

:26:00.:26:03.

in the issues that David Cameron is trying to negotiate on for the UK

:26:04.:26:09.

and other countries. But regardless of what he comes back with there are

:26:10.:26:15.

people, and I would include Jim Allister, who are not Eurosceptic,

:26:16.:26:18.

they will reject that ever David Cameron comes back with, so they

:26:19.:26:22.

will not engage in a reasonable fashion with the terms. But

:26:23.:26:27.

regardless, even as they currently stand in Europe, most people would

:26:28.:26:30.

see it as a no-brainer and that is quite the Chambers of Commerce

:26:31.:26:36.

survey said that 81% of businesses would opt to stay here and 10% still

:26:37.:26:41.

do not know saw it is a tiny minority and that is rapidly that

:26:42.:26:46.

across sectors and agriculture, fisheries, small business as well.

:26:47.:26:51.

It would be devastating for Northern Ireland to leave. Our fishing

:26:52.:26:55.

industry has been devastated by the EU. The Commons fisheries policy has

:26:56.:27:00.

reduced the industry to a shadow of what it is. We are told what we can

:27:01.:27:06.

catch, when we can catch, what we have two throwback, all courtesy of

:27:07.:27:12.

the EU. The fundamental that is for us as a trading nation where are

:27:13.:27:16.

best interests lie. Already less than half our trade is with the EU.

:27:17.:27:21.

Most of our trade is with the rest of the world where the growth

:27:22.:27:25.

markets. Yet as a member of the EU we cannot even make a trade

:27:26.:27:27.

Agreement with our mean cheating partners. On the fisheries, the

:27:28.:27:41.

investment that came from Europe that allowed that industry to

:27:42.:27:48.

modernise, but all of the downturn in the fishing industry is being

:27:49.:27:52.

blamed on the EU when in fact it was to do with the fact that the UK was

:27:53.:27:55.

fishing I slammed mortars and Iceland stopped that and the EU did

:27:56.:28:08.

regulate. -- fishing the waters of Iceland.

:28:09.:28:13.

The American President has said we would be foolish to leave. It is not

:28:14.:28:20.

for him to say. If foreign investment is what we are going

:28:21.:28:24.

after quite clearly our position as a two-year grip is vital to that and

:28:25.:28:29.

the other thing as even if you concede the UK is a net contributor

:28:30.:28:34.

in terms of fees in and glance out, and that would be taking out the

:28:35.:28:40.

other benefits, there is absolutely no likelihood that any savings

:28:41.:28:45.

George Osborne makes will be spent in Northern Ireland. ?20 billion.

:28:46.:28:48.

Currently being poured into Brussels. The reality is you have no

:28:49.:28:54.

idea how much of that apparent saving would come back to somewhere

:28:55.:28:58.

like Northern Ireland and nor have you any guaranteed that bilateral

:28:59.:29:02.

trade deals could be sorted out between the UK and the Republic of

:29:03.:29:06.

Ireland. They would have to go through the EU and the Nick Bitel

:29:07.:29:15.

Levy on that. It is a certainty that we have ?20 million more per and on

:29:16.:29:21.

our own people rather than the EU. This is not a decision, a parochial

:29:22.:29:27.

decision, this is a national decision. There is no guarantee that

:29:28.:29:33.

the 20 million with get back to Northern Ireland. That is part of

:29:34.:29:40.

the scaremongering of those scared of the UK standing on its own feet.

:29:41.:29:46.

You cannot give a guarantee. The British Government would have to

:29:47.:29:48.

look after its own farmers, fishermen, businesses, of course it

:29:49.:29:58.

would. The second point is the point about trade. This scare story that

:29:59.:30:01.

there would be no trade agreements in the list of the EU. There are

:30:02.:30:08.

other countries outside the EU which are part of a trade Alliance such as

:30:09.:30:13.

Turkey. Secondly because the EU sells as more than we sell them they

:30:14.:30:18.

need as more than we need them and they will be more anxious than we

:30:19.:30:23.

will to have a trade Alliance. There is no certainty and in a world of

:30:24.:30:27.

uncertainty the last thing you want to do is leave the most stable

:30:28.:30:30.

market in the world and retreat into our own shell. 3% immediately of our

:30:31.:30:39.

GDP would go. I was reading a report today that mentioned one in eight

:30:40.:30:45.

jobs. I do not want to bring it down to pounds shillings and pence. The

:30:46.:30:52.

growth is elsewhere. It is not. It is. Investors look for stability.

:30:53.:30:59.

Other currencies have had wobbles. It is the values of Europe, the free

:31:00.:31:04.

movement of people, working in cooperation, all of the challenges

:31:05.:31:08.

that we deal with, climate change, refugee issues, and all of the

:31:09.:31:13.

opportunities. They do not stop at Borders. To say that we will deal

:31:14.:31:21.

with it in our own way. These are empty scare stories that cause the

:31:22.:31:27.

SDLP and others to say we should join the euro. How wrong they were

:31:28.:31:30.

about that and how wrong they are about this. It is the same argument.

:31:31.:31:37.

We must keep up with the rest of Europe. You must put all of your

:31:38.:31:43.

eggs in the one basket. What a disaster that would have been if we

:31:44.:31:47.

had joined the euro. What a disaster would it be if we exited and

:31:48.:31:53.

sterling dropped by 20%. It will not because we will have growth in our

:31:54.:31:56.

economy because we will be free to trade with the rest of the world.

:31:57.:32:01.

Let's pass the 42nd because I need to ask you about expenses. Jim

:32:02.:32:05.

Allister, you brought this issue back into the spotlight last week by

:32:06.:32:09.

asking a question which then found its way into the public discourse.

:32:10.:32:12.

Since then, there has been a stand-off between the bodies. Is

:32:13.:32:21.

re-engaging IPSA the way to deal with this issue? We need to have a

:32:22.:32:27.

body like the Westminster body taking charge of expenses. Paying

:32:28.:32:32.

them out, checking them and prosecuting people for wrong claims.

:32:33.:32:34.

All that the commission is asking them to do is to report that they

:32:35.:32:39.

want to will be part themselves and we saw what that did. ?700,000 paid

:32:40.:32:47.

to a front organisation, for Sinn Fein, which cannot produce one scrap

:32:48.:32:51.

of research for what that money was for. And then it was swept under the

:32:52.:32:55.

carpet and the cover-up is the worst part of the scandal and even tonight

:32:56.:33:00.

trying to swim against the obvious findings of the panel and trying to

:33:01.:33:05.

pretend that they didn't do wrong when they blatantly did. OK. We

:33:06.:33:12.

didn't have those organisations on the programme to make those cases

:33:13.:33:15.

and it was not just Sinn Fein that was involved in that particular

:33:16.:33:18.

story. Thank you both for joining us.

:33:19.:33:20.

A clear case of leave versus stay there.

:33:21.:33:23.

Now it's over to the corner to get the views of tonight's commentators,

:33:24.:33:26.

Welcome to both. You have been listening very carefully to

:33:27.:33:38.

everything that has been said in a fairly packed programme. Let's start

:33:39.:33:42.

with the issue of Alastair Hamilton and those job losses. Where you

:33:43.:33:45.

reassured by what Alistair had to say about the way in which Invest NI

:33:46.:33:52.

and the Government is trying to keep jobs? Absolutely. I think he gave a

:33:53.:33:58.

very coherent performance and it was a statement about where we actually

:33:59.:34:03.

are. I think there is the real difficulty when you see a large

:34:04.:34:06.

number of jobs going to panic and in fact we need to be looking at the

:34:07.:34:09.

sort of thing that could happen to us and it is going to keep happening

:34:10.:34:12.

to us and it has happened in the past with Bombardier and they

:34:13.:34:16.

brought jobs back again and it could come back again in the future and it

:34:17.:34:19.

is what we do about those people now is what we should be focusing on and

:34:20.:34:22.

not just scaremongering and creating all signs of dissent and division in

:34:23.:34:27.

the communities. Well you as positive? Wow, I think he was

:34:28.:34:34.

focusing on corporation tax as something which will attract jobs

:34:35.:34:37.

here. I think the focus politicians have as of yesterday evening and

:34:38.:34:41.

this morning was on commiserating with the employees who are going to

:34:42.:34:45.

lose their jobs but also defending their record to date in terms of

:34:46.:34:48.

this is the fourth quarter in which unemployment has gone down. They

:34:49.:34:53.

made reference to the 1000 manufacturing jobs which is the

:34:54.:34:56.

highest since 2008, so there is a balance there. He made the point of

:34:57.:35:03.

it being a gamble of a considered risk, but it is just the nature of

:35:04.:35:11.

what he has to do if it is a case that the high-end jobs that are

:35:12.:35:15.

required, if we do start to attract them. Let's speak about those

:35:16.:35:19.

expenses which is the story of the past week. Interesting developments

:35:20.:35:26.

from the IFRP not resigning or standing down at all. They can't

:35:27.:35:31.

both be right. No, they can't. I think what we need to get past you

:35:32.:35:37.

is that this is a wrangle about pedantic points. There is a major

:35:38.:35:41.

point of principle year witches are we funding politicians for their

:35:42.:35:47.

personal gain or for party political gain? Expenses are being used as a

:35:48.:35:52.

battering ram and I think we need to clear the air a bit here and go back

:35:53.:35:56.

and say what expenses do we actually gave individual members to run the

:35:57.:35:59.

business of their constituency offices? What did he use it for? I

:36:00.:36:04.

think they should be given in this tiny area of Northern Ireland a set

:36:05.:36:07.

amount of expenses and they should have two produce those accounts and

:36:08.:36:10.

say what they used them for and those things should be audited. That

:36:11.:36:17.

is not the controversy. It is who actually polices it. I understand

:36:18.:36:20.

that but the point that I am saying is this is an argument that we can

:36:21.:36:24.

all talk about and we can perpetuate it but we will not get to the root

:36:25.:36:27.

of what is actually happening. I think politicians have to be very

:36:28.:36:31.

careful. We know that the issues of expenses is having a corrosive

:36:32.:36:34.

effect in terms of public confidence in politicians. We saw during the

:36:35.:36:39.

week when various people came out very strongly defending their

:36:40.:36:45.

position. We saw others saying that the need to look again at the issue

:36:46.:36:49.

of openness and transparency and we know that a report came out today

:36:50.:36:54.

looking at the finances of the parties during the Westminster

:36:55.:36:57.

campaign last year. I don't think these issues will go away and I

:36:58.:37:00.

think the parties will end up having to move towards a IPSA model because

:37:01.:37:05.

they will meet to engender that confidence. But it is a hugely

:37:06.:37:10.

expensive way of actually monitoring a relatively small amount of money

:37:11.:37:15.

in real terms. This is because of the accusations of Howard is being

:37:16.:37:18.

used by the point is we can remove that problem, we can get back to the

:37:19.:37:22.

reality of what politicians are actually there to do deliver their

:37:23.:37:25.

constituencies. Livestock finally and briefly about -- let's speak

:37:26.:37:31.

only briefly about the possible British exit from the European

:37:32.:37:35.

Union. What do you make of what we heard tonight? Well, gain, I think

:37:36.:37:39.

what is clear is that we know nothing. We have no idea what is

:37:40.:37:43.

going to come out of this negotiation. The Finnish Finance

:37:44.:37:50.

ministers said tonight that they always pull a rabbit out of the hat.

:37:51.:37:57.

It is not clear what we will have but we will not have the far

:37:58.:38:00.

reaching changes that David Cameron wanted to have.

:38:01.:38:01.

That's it from The View for this week.

:38:02.:38:03.

Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC One.

:38:04.:38:06.

So, as the EU negotiations continue in Brussels,

:38:07.:38:07.

the arguments remain very familiar - though a lot has changed

:38:08.:38:10.

since the UK was last asked the question back in 1975.

:38:11.:38:14.

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