Browse content similar to 18/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Swingeing job cuts at Bombardier, the latest twist in the ongoing saga | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
over MLAs' expenses and both sides in the debate over BREXIT - | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
the head of the agency with responsibility for growing | :00:11. | :00:37. | |
the economy here, what more can be done to protect manufacturing jobs. | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
As the war of words over expenses continues, | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
will reforming the system make any difference? | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
The Assembly commission it should be wind-up immediately as a useless | :00:47. | :00:59. | |
body which has not performed any function whatsoever or being useful | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
for the people in this part of the world. | :01:03. | :01:02. | |
as the negotiations on a new deal continue, we'll hear the latest live | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
from Brussels and ask a prominent Europhile | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
and Eurosceptic what they think of David Cameron's plans. | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
And in Commentators' Corner this week, | :01:12. | :01:12. | |
PR consulant Sheila Davidson joins political blogger Chris Donnelly. | :01:13. | :01:21. | |
The headlines were stark in the papers this morning, | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
from 'Bombardier bombshell' to 'Devastation as a thousand jobs | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
The firm's announcement on Tuesday that it's to shed a fifth | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
of its workforce follows similar cuts at Mischel-inn and JTI | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
So, as the impact of the latest round of job losses sinks in, | :01:36. | :01:43. | |
is there a real threat to the future of the manufacturing sector here, | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
and can anything more be done to protect it? | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
Joining me now is the Chief Executive of Invest NI, | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
After yesterday's announcement of 1,000 job losses, | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
today Bombardier suspended its apprentice scheme as part | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
What does that say about its commitment to new talent, | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
which is the lifeblood of any business? | :02:03. | :02:10. | |
I think you need to go back and look at the decisions that Bombardier | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
have taken over the last 48 hours. At its heart is a reef formation of | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
that organisation, a global organisation, but a rebasing of that | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
organisation in Belfast to address competitiveness and cost and it is | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
clearly understandable that in order to address those cost pressures that | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
they would address the new intake of employees at the same time as they | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
would deal with the painful situation for the existing employees | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
that are going to find themselves out of work. It doesn't look like | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
much of a commitment to the future. They had committed to the future of | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
the existing apprenticeships they already had but the company is in a | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
difficult position and I don't think anyone would underestimate it, a $5 | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
billion loss at a group level and some very stark decisions being | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
taken in terms of the operation here in Belfast but I would repeat what | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
the chief executive said, which is that Belfast is at the heart of the | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
Bombardier operation and we must take some comfort for the future | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
from that. That might be reassuring on one level, but there is always | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
the danger that we get caught somewhere in the middle, that we are | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
squeezed between political imperatives in Canada, with the | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
Canadian taxpayer bailing the company out, and the low-cost | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
manufacturing plants the company has in places like Morocco and Mexico. | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
And that is exactly why Bombardier had been making the move is that | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
they have, to move out of the lover Ali manufacturing into higher value | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
and is why they have invested and that is exactly what those | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
investment programmes are there to do, to invest in high-value | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
manufacturing, which is composite manufacturing. That is why the money | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
has been put in and we have invested ?135 million of taxpayer's money to | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
position Bombardier in Belfast for the future of manufacturing. So we | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
had Jonathan Bell saying this morning that he is convinced that | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
Bombardier is you to stay. Bombardier is committed to Northern | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
Ireland. The Belfast Buncombe he says, is secure, but there is no | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
absolute obligation on Bombardier to stay here indefinitely. Do you | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
accept that? There is no written down commercial agreement for them | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
to stay, but you need to look a bit deeper to understand the stickiness | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
of the investments that were made in Belfast. The sea -series win which | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
is at the heart of the investment we have made worse patented and made | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
with universities here in Northern Ireland. The ?525 million investment | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
in one of the biggest clean rooms in Europe is here in Belfast -- the | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
set. The cost of moving this operation is one of the things that | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
gives us some comfort for the future that Belfast is that the heart of | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
the Bombardier operation. That is great if the C-series is a success, | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
but things are not looking good for it at the moment. We take some | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
comfort from the latest orders that have come in from Air Canada, but | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
this is what businesses do, they make investments from the future. We | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
would be in a different situation today we have not made the | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
investment on the C-series facility in Belfast, because we would be | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
looking at would be the continual eating away of the low value | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
manufacturing, where as now we have an opportunity for the future with | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
that high-value investment. That is fine so long as Bombardier does not | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
find ways to upscale in places like Morocco and Mexico and move for a | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
better high-value option the production of the C-series from | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
Belfast to places like that. That will be a continual process. What is | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
low value manufacturing today will be higher value manufacturing | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
tomorrow, and that is a constant race for operations here in Northern | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
Ireland and across the UK and in the developed countries to stay ahead of | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
that game, to keep leading age manufacturing and development, to | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
make sure that they keep moving up the value chain. So here is the | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
question I think people will be interested in. Without any written | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
guarantee that Bombardier is here for the long term, you indefinitely, | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
has it been good value for money for the public purse to be pumping tens | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
of millions of pounds into a company like Bombardier? I think you can | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
only answer that question in the future. We are at the crucial point | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
for the C-series. They committed to having 300 orders that the initial | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
point. The aircraft has been certified. Even their harshest | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
competitors would agree that the aircraft is world leading in terms | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
of fuel efficiency and noise reduction and customer experience | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
inside the cabin. It is a world-class aircraft and we are | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
proud that it has been developed you in Belfast, but you need to remember | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
that this is the first aircraft that has been developed in the past 25 | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
years in the single line and that is a massive challenge bearing in mind | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
competitors, so we need to look to the future. A big up sign is that we | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
have those orders from Air Canada and we have some other companies on | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
the back of that Singapore airshow today talking more positively about | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
the C-series and where it might fit in their fleets in the future. So | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
you are committed to continuing to back Bombardier in the future, but | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
do you accept and are upfront about the fact that it is a gamble? Do you | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
really clearly need to understand where Government fits in the funding | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
cycle. I know there are many people who would share the underlying | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
comments that we should back winners and we should only be funding things | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
that are certain. I am just asking for clarity that it is a gamble. | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
Well, it is not a gamble. It is a considered risk. We are in the game | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
of funders of last resort. We should not be funding companies that could | :08:00. | :08:01. | |
secure funding from equity companies or from the banks. That is not our | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
game. We are not sure to displace banks. We are here to make things | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
happen that without Government support they would not have been | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
here. Well, it is a gamble in that you | :08:13. | :08:28. | |
have no absolute guarantee of success. And as do many businesses | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
when the invest for the future. No absolute guarantee of where they are | :08:33. | :08:34. | |
going. We are a business development body. We are here to make things | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
happen in Northern Ireland that otherwise wouldn't an involved and | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
that is a fund of last resort is risk. We accept that risk. And does | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
invest NI in your view currently happy to get it needs to do the job | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
it is required to do? Clearly, as we sit here today, we have a wonderful | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
record as the most successful development agency on these islands. | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
Over the last four years, we have secured almost 40,000 jobs for | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
Northern Ireland which mixes in first place in terms of the regions | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
the United Kingdom and that is with the toolkit we have today. | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
Obviously, we look to the future, now that the things are based on | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
corporation tax and we add to that cost proposition which bits as any | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
unique position in these islands in terms of a combination of those | :09:13. | :09:14. | |
things so I looked very positively to the future in terms of adding | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
that new jewel to our toolkit and finding new investment that | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
otherwise we would not have been able to attract. -- tool. Soothing | :09:21. | :09:29. | |
investment is increasing? In my view, it is. All we are looking for. | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
The global investment market breaks into two centres, cost centres and | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
profit centres. I am not choosing profit centres because I have a | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
neighbour on the silencer is a better proposition than I am. We | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
tease cost centres including high-value cost centres such as the | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
legal and the professional services. I am now able to fish in a much | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
wider pool. I have not lost the cost centre proposition but I add a cost | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
centre one to it so we should be able to do more with that. So you | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
are very positive tonight and I note that the minister responsible for | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
enterprise trade and investment, Jonathan Bell, was very positive | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
this morning and said that manufacturing in Northern Ireland is | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
in a better place than it has been perhaps in recent years and it has | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
delivered jobs, but can you understand why people watching this | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
seed is in the context of 3000 jobs being lost in the very recent past | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
in east Belfast and in Ballymena and the wonder how you do square that | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
circle. And I share his optimism both looking backwards and forwards, | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
but nevertheless it is very disappointing and I can understand | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
because I have family members and friends in some of those sites, both | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
in Bombardier and in JTI Gallahers and I know the pain this will cause | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
to individuals. If you look backwards, out of those 39,000 jobs, | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
12,000 are in the manufacturing spear, the highest we have ever had. | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
3600 of them in the last year alone. The majority of those have not yet | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
been created, so while it is difficult and disappointing for | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
those people, we are coming from the position that we have never been in | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
before of having an unprecedented high order book, if you want to put | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
those words around it flowing into the future. And very quickly, this | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
is all set against the context of the possibility of a British exit | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
from the European Union. Would that not be potentially catastrophic by | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
the manufacturing sector in Northern Ireland, because some people think | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
that. I think the things need to be clarified. I cannot answer at the | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
moment. First of all, 60% of our exports go to European markets, the | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
majority into the Republic of Ireland. Companies will not make | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
decisions based on emotion. There will be an emotional element to it. | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
Companies make decisions on the clarity of the business case for the | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
future. They will want to know what those export markets are like. | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
Warren investment is pitched clearly about accessing the European market. | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
-- foreign investment. What will those pitches look like in future? | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
We need clarity on that. Based on the funding that we have and the | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
vast majority of the funding is European funds. People say that we | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
put in more than we get out and that is fine but will we get the same | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
distribution? We get more than our fair share because of our past at | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
the moment and the challenges that we face. Will we get that same | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
distribution in the future? If someone can give is clarity around | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
those three things in business will be in a much better position to make | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
a decision. Very interesting to hear your thoughts and we will develop | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
was further with our other guests later. The political week at | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
Stormont has been developed by one story. | :12:50. | :12:51. | |
The stand-off between the Assembly Commission | :12:52. | :12:53. | |
and The Independent Financial Review Panel revolves around claims that | :12:54. | :12:55. | |
expenses rules were not properly enforced. | :12:56. | :12:57. | |
This very public row has provoked a war of words between the body that | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
sets the regulations and the organisation | :13:01. | :13:01. | |
It's resulted in the Assembly Commission asking the Westminster | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
expenses body, IPSA, to take a look at how Stormont | :13:06. | :13:07. | |
Here's our Political Correspondent, Stephen Walker. | :13:08. | :13:16. | |
It is an illustration of how disconnected so many people at | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
Stormont appear to have become. Where public money is concerned, to | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
allay the concerns that the public may have, let's look at how we can | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
do things better. It is an extraordinary situation when you | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
have the people who set the rules and the people who enforce those | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
rules really at war with each other and very publicly. Rather like | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
comedy, timing is everything in politics, and this row is the last | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
thing that members mac -- members Max need. Politicians would rather | :13:53. | :14:01. | |
answer questions about the health service, the economy and education, | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
but instead the talk shows are discussing alliances and expenses. | :14:06. | :14:13. | |
The origins of this row lie in a BBC Spotlight podcast in November 20 14. | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
One of the programmes reported that Sinn Fein members claimed around | :14:18. | :14:25. | |
?700,000 expenses to pay research services Ireland over a 10-year | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
period. Last year, after a question from Jim Allison, attention switched | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
to the Assembly commission, which is made up of the Stormont's largest | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
parties and is responsible for enforcing the expenses rules. | :14:39. | :14:53. | |
But on Sunday Politics and member of The Independent panel which sets the | :14:54. | :15:02. | |
rules to a different course and said ?150,000 should not have been paid. | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
That is contrary to the determination. And the Commission, | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
if it thinks this is oche, is quite wrong. That's true a sharp response | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
from the Assembly. What is of significant concern to me and regret | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
is that the chief executive was working directly with the panel on | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
these issues and I am extremely disappointed at the publicity that | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
has been generated. Then a leaked report to the northern Short | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
revealed that the Westminster expenses watchdog The Independent | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
Parliamentary Standards Authority had concerns about the way the storm | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
and expenses scheme was operated. Ipsa was told that in one or two | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
cases MLAs having had a claim refused a senior member of Assembly | :15:56. | :15:56. | |
staff. Ipsa concluded: us that we should move to the type | :15:57. | :17:13. | |
of model that runs at We are very happy to operate under a | :17:14. | :17:22. | |
similar model to Westminster, as has been suggested to us many times. I | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
think it would be a clear system and much more straightforward if we had | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
the one body that makes determinations rather than divided | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
which is currently the case here. Time appears to be something that | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
the Assembly has not got. It has to come to a conclusion within a matter | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
of months because the independent financial review panel Hadi remit | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
which only lasted for five years and that is coming to an end very soon. | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
The question is whether the members will be able to push this back until | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
after the election. The Assembly commission has asked the Westminster | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
commission to review the Stormont expenses system. It also wants to | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
strengthen the effectiveness of the local independent financial review | :18:05. | :18:05. | |
panel. Stephen Walker there | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
with the background to a remarkable story - and at this point | :18:14. | :18:15. | |
I had hoped to be talking to Stormont's Speaker and the chair | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
of the Assembly Commission, He agreed several weeks ago | :18:19. | :18:20. | |
to join me in the studio tonight - but when this latest expenses row | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
erupted he pulled out We'd also hoped to talk | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
to the chief executive of Ipsa, the Parliamentary expenses watchdog | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
that's now reviewing the Assembly's procedures, but this afternoon that | :18:31. | :18:32. | |
organisation said it wouldn't now be appropriate to appear | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
on the programme. However, tonight there has been | :18:36. | :18:36. | |
another twist in the story - and Chris Page is here | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
to talk us through it. A strongly worded statement has been | :18:40. | :18:49. | |
issued to the BBC. What does it say. The Independent | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
financial review panel are taking a clear and firm line in that they say | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
they are in the right and they will stick to their position. When it | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
comes to the ?150,000 paid in 2012 the panel say it remains The View | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
these expenses should not have been claimed or paid. The panel also deal | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
with the suggestion that they made a mistake in a ruling in March 2012 | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
and then tries to amend it later that year in December. They say that | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
is incorrect to suggest they made a mistake. They say they are clear | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
that the March 2012 determination allows MLAs to employ staff for | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
research. They say that did not allowed contract providers. It is a | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
restatement of the panels position. It deals in factual matters that you | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
get the impression that the panel feel strongly about this. | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
This has been going on in public for almost one week. All side backing | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
down. The opposite. That is right. There | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
is no meeting of minds. There are two public bodies who see things | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
completely differently. That panel and the Assembly Commission will | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
meet next week. There is no sign that this public disagreement is to | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
being resolved. More to come on that one. | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
By tomorrow afternoon the campaign over whether or not the UK should | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
remain in the EU could be under way, Cabinet members may well have | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
resigned, the battle lines will have been drawn. | :20:29. | :20:30. | |
In a moment the arguments for and against in the studio, | :20:31. | :20:32. | |
but first let's get the latest from the negotiations in Brussels. | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
RTE's Europe Editor, Tony Connelly is in our studio. | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
Where are we as we speak this evening? | :20:40. | :20:49. | |
The heads of Government met at the outset of the beginning of the | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
summit and all 28 made the presentations on the British issue. | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
David Cameron made a staunch and passionate defence of his demands | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
for key reforms which he can then sell to the British electorate. This | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
session they moved into a dinner which was dominated by the refugee | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
crisis. After that they have been getting into smaller bilateral | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
meetings, smaller huddled groups of heads of Government and also the | :21:19. | :21:26. | |
representatives of the heads of Government. They will beget in into | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
the nitty-gritty. The problem is that David Cameron wants key reforms | :21:32. | :21:40. | |
across for policy areas. As the meeting has gone on to day it is | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
clear that across that spectrum of policy areas individual countries | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
are getting more and more resentful, more and more twitchy about the | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
things that they want, the things that they don't want. The Eastern | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
European countries and the Central European countries have realised | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
that they are facing a scenario where they feel that they are being | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
asked to make the biggest sacrifices in terms of what David Cameron | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
wants, and they are suddenly realising that they are going to | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
look like losers out of this process and local back to their capitals and | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
that they have been defeated. They will be digging their in and looking | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
for scraps, looking for things that they can see that they have one, | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
concessions on. And to give you a sense of the kind of detail, David | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
Cameron wants to limit EU migration to the UK, he wants to restrict in | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
work benefits that people get. He wants to restrict child benefit. See | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
for example a Polish worker in the UK can send child benefit back to | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
his children living in Poland. David Cameron wants to index those | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
payments to the standard of living, the cost of living in Poland. The | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
entire thing hinges on whether that will only affect newcomers to the UK | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
after this deal is done or will it affects people who are already | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
living and working in the UK. That is the kind of nitty-gritty | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
scrapping that is going on and that will go on throughout the night and | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
then the leaders will come back tomorrow morning at 11 o'clock to | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
try to get the ball rolling again. If you had to call it in one | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
sentence, it is impossible to be sure, what is your hunch? Everybody | :23:28. | :23:35. | |
wants Britain to remain in the European Union and nobody wants to | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
press the nuclear button that would push David Cameron out so he will | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
get some kind of arguments tomorrow but whether it is the kind of | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
jubilant, triumphant deal that he wants that he can sell to the | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
British electorate, that is another thing. Thank you. | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
And Claire Hanna from the SDLP and the TUV leader, Jim Allister, | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
Jim Allister, one of those areas of renegotiation is about restricting | :24:02. | :24:17. | |
benefits for EU citizens living in the UK. What do you think of the | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
Irish Government position on Republic of Ireland citizens in the | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
UK having a different arrangement should UK decide to stay in the EU? | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
I do not think that would be appropriate. There is a need for the | :24:32. | :24:41. | |
unanimity of an approach. All this Prime Minister is doing is tinkering | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
around the edges. They use a goal he said he was going for a fundamental | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
change of our relationship which would be in Kabul. He is going for | :24:50. | :25:03. | |
something now which is very minimal. -- which would be irrevocable. What | :25:04. | :25:13. | |
he is going for now would not liberate our courts from being | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
subject to the European Court of Justice which will not liberate our | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
trade. He is asking for virtually nothing and this getting virtually | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
nothing. No doubt tomorrow he will claim some victory but I do not | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
think anyone will be convinced about that. Claire Hanna, it was an issue | :25:32. | :25:49. | |
raised by the Irish ambassador to the UK, and he made the point that | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
the issue of Irish people living in the UK PDC EU by many years. As | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
their merits and what he was talking about? Yes, and there is also merits | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
in the issues that David Cameron is trying to negotiate on for the UK | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
and other countries. But regardless of what he comes back with there are | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
people, and I would include Jim Allister, who are not Eurosceptic, | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
they will reject that ever David Cameron comes back with, so they | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
will not engage in a reasonable fashion with the terms. But | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
regardless, even as they currently stand in Europe, most people would | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
see it as a no-brainer and that is quite the Chambers of Commerce | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
survey said that 81% of businesses would opt to stay here and 10% still | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
do not know saw it is a tiny minority and that is rapidly that | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
across sectors and agriculture, fisheries, small business as well. | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
It would be devastating for Northern Ireland to leave. Our fishing | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
industry has been devastated by the EU. The Commons fisheries policy has | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
reduced the industry to a shadow of what it is. We are told what we can | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
catch, when we can catch, what we have two throwback, all courtesy of | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
the EU. The fundamental that is for us as a trading nation where are | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
best interests lie. Already less than half our trade is with the EU. | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
Most of our trade is with the rest of the world where the growth | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
markets. Yet as a member of the EU we cannot even make a trade | :27:26. | :27:27. | |
Agreement with our mean cheating partners. On the fisheries, the | :27:28. | :27:41. | |
investment that came from Europe that allowed that industry to | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
modernise, but all of the downturn in the fishing industry is being | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
blamed on the EU when in fact it was to do with the fact that the UK was | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
fishing I slammed mortars and Iceland stopped that and the EU did | :27:56. | :28:08. | |
regulate. -- fishing the waters of Iceland. | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
The American President has said we would be foolish to leave. It is not | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
for him to say. If foreign investment is what we are going | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
after quite clearly our position as a two-year grip is vital to that and | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
the other thing as even if you concede the UK is a net contributor | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
in terms of fees in and glance out, and that would be taking out the | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
other benefits, there is absolutely no likelihood that any savings | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
George Osborne makes will be spent in Northern Ireland. ?20 billion. | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
Currently being poured into Brussels. The reality is you have no | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
idea how much of that apparent saving would come back to somewhere | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
like Northern Ireland and nor have you any guaranteed that bilateral | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
trade deals could be sorted out between the UK and the Republic of | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
Ireland. They would have to go through the EU and the Nick Bitel | :29:07. | :29:15. | |
Levy on that. It is a certainty that we have ?20 million more per and on | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
our own people rather than the EU. This is not a decision, a parochial | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
decision, this is a national decision. There is no guarantee that | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
the 20 million with get back to Northern Ireland. That is part of | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
the scaremongering of those scared of the UK standing on its own feet. | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
You cannot give a guarantee. The British Government would have to | :29:47. | :29:48. | |
look after its own farmers, fishermen, businesses, of course it | :29:49. | :29:58. | |
would. The second point is the point about trade. This scare story that | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
there would be no trade agreements in the list of the EU. There are | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
other countries outside the EU which are part of a trade Alliance such as | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
Turkey. Secondly because the EU sells as more than we sell them they | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
need as more than we need them and they will be more anxious than we | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
will to have a trade Alliance. There is no certainty and in a world of | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
uncertainty the last thing you want to do is leave the most stable | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
market in the world and retreat into our own shell. 3% immediately of our | :30:31. | :30:39. | |
GDP would go. I was reading a report today that mentioned one in eight | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
jobs. I do not want to bring it down to pounds shillings and pence. The | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
growth is elsewhere. It is not. It is. Investors look for stability. | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
Other currencies have had wobbles. It is the values of Europe, the free | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
movement of people, working in cooperation, all of the challenges | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
that we deal with, climate change, refugee issues, and all of the | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
opportunities. They do not stop at Borders. To say that we will deal | :31:14. | :31:21. | |
with it in our own way. These are empty scare stories that cause the | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
SDLP and others to say we should join the euro. How wrong they were | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
about that and how wrong they are about this. It is the same argument. | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
We must keep up with the rest of Europe. You must put all of your | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
eggs in the one basket. What a disaster that would have been if we | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
had joined the euro. What a disaster would it be if we exited and | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
sterling dropped by 20%. It will not because we will have growth in our | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
economy because we will be free to trade with the rest of the world. | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
Let's pass the 42nd because I need to ask you about expenses. Jim | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
Allister, you brought this issue back into the spotlight last week by | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
asking a question which then found its way into the public discourse. | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
Since then, there has been a stand-off between the bodies. Is | :32:13. | :32:21. | |
re-engaging IPSA the way to deal with this issue? We need to have a | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
body like the Westminster body taking charge of expenses. Paying | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
them out, checking them and prosecuting people for wrong claims. | :32:33. | :32:34. | |
All that the commission is asking them to do is to report that they | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
want to will be part themselves and we saw what that did. ?700,000 paid | :32:40. | :32:47. | |
to a front organisation, for Sinn Fein, which cannot produce one scrap | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
of research for what that money was for. And then it was swept under the | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
carpet and the cover-up is the worst part of the scandal and even tonight | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
trying to swim against the obvious findings of the panel and trying to | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
pretend that they didn't do wrong when they blatantly did. OK. We | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
didn't have those organisations on the programme to make those cases | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
and it was not just Sinn Fein that was involved in that particular | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
story. Thank you both for joining us. | :33:19. | :33:20. | |
A clear case of leave versus stay there. | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
Now it's over to the corner to get the views of tonight's commentators, | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
Welcome to both. You have been listening very carefully to | :33:27. | :33:38. | |
everything that has been said in a fairly packed programme. Let's start | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
with the issue of Alastair Hamilton and those job losses. Where you | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
reassured by what Alistair had to say about the way in which Invest NI | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
and the Government is trying to keep jobs? Absolutely. I think he gave a | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
very coherent performance and it was a statement about where we actually | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
are. I think there is the real difficulty when you see a large | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
number of jobs going to panic and in fact we need to be looking at the | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
sort of thing that could happen to us and it is going to keep happening | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
to us and it has happened in the past with Bombardier and they | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
brought jobs back again and it could come back again in the future and it | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
is what we do about those people now is what we should be focusing on and | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
not just scaremongering and creating all signs of dissent and division in | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
the communities. Well you as positive? Wow, I think he was | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
focusing on corporation tax as something which will attract jobs | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
here. I think the focus politicians have as of yesterday evening and | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
this morning was on commiserating with the employees who are going to | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
lose their jobs but also defending their record to date in terms of | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
this is the fourth quarter in which unemployment has gone down. They | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
made reference to the 1000 manufacturing jobs which is the | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
highest since 2008, so there is a balance there. He made the point of | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
it being a gamble of a considered risk, but it is just the nature of | :35:04. | :35:11. | |
what he has to do if it is a case that the high-end jobs that are | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
required, if we do start to attract them. Let's speak about those | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
expenses which is the story of the past week. Interesting developments | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
from the IFRP not resigning or standing down at all. They can't | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
both be right. No, they can't. I think what we need to get past you | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
is that this is a wrangle about pedantic points. There is a major | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
point of principle year witches are we funding politicians for their | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
personal gain or for party political gain? Expenses are being used as a | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
battering ram and I think we need to clear the air a bit here and go back | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
and say what expenses do we actually gave individual members to run the | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
business of their constituency offices? What did he use it for? I | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
think they should be given in this tiny area of Northern Ireland a set | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
amount of expenses and they should have two produce those accounts and | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
say what they used them for and those things should be audited. That | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
is not the controversy. It is who actually polices it. I understand | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
that but the point that I am saying is this is an argument that we can | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
all talk about and we can perpetuate it but we will not get to the root | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
of what is actually happening. I think politicians have to be very | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
careful. We know that the issues of expenses is having a corrosive | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
effect in terms of public confidence in politicians. We saw during the | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
week when various people came out very strongly defending their | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
position. We saw others saying that the need to look again at the issue | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
of openness and transparency and we know that a report came out today | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
looking at the finances of the parties during the Westminster | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
campaign last year. I don't think these issues will go away and I | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
think the parties will end up having to move towards a IPSA model because | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
they will meet to engender that confidence. But it is a hugely | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
expensive way of actually monitoring a relatively small amount of money | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
in real terms. This is because of the accusations of Howard is being | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
used by the point is we can remove that problem, we can get back to the | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
reality of what politicians are actually there to do deliver their | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
constituencies. Livestock finally and briefly about -- let's speak | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
only briefly about the possible British exit from the European | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
Union. What do you make of what we heard tonight? Well, gain, I think | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
what is clear is that we know nothing. We have no idea what is | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
going to come out of this negotiation. The Finnish Finance | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
ministers said tonight that they always pull a rabbit out of the hat. | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
It is not clear what we will have but we will not have the far | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
reaching changes that David Cameron wanted to have. | :38:01. | :38:01. | |
That's it from The View for this week. | :38:02. | :38:03. | |
Join me for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC One. | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
So, as the EU negotiations continue in Brussels, | :38:07. | :38:07. | |
the arguments remain very familiar - though a lot has changed | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
since the UK was last asked the question back in 1975. | :38:11. | :38:14. |